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Wireless Networking Communications Apple

Nearly All of Apple's Newest Devices Have an Unannounced Thread Radio On Board (theverge.com) 93

Posted by BeauHD from the future-opportunities dept.
Apple has quietly added a Thread radio to nearly all of its newest iPads, MacBooks, and iMacs. The Verge reports: While the company doesn't list Thread on the specs of any of these products, FCC reports indicate that many of Apple's latest devices have had Thread radios tested for compliance. Generally, you don't test a radio that's not there. We found evidence of Thread testing in the following models: iPad Pro 13-inch (M4) (Wi-Fi + Cellular), iPad Pro 11-inch (M4) (Wi-Fi + Cellular), iPad Pro 11-inch (M4) (Wi-Fi), iPad Air 11-inch (M2) (Wi-Fi + Cellular), iPad Air 13-inch (M2) Wi-Fi, MacBook Air 15-inch (M3), MacBook Pro 14-inch (M3), MacBook Pro 14-inch (M3 Pro or M3 Max), MacBook Pro 16-inch (M3 Pro or M3 Max), iMac (M3, two ports), and iMac (M3, four ports).

The FCC requires manufacturers to list every radio contained in a device and to test them in every possible scenario to make sure they comply with its transmission regulations. Tom Sciorilli, director of certification for Thread Group, told The Verge that the FCC reports reference FCC 15.247, "which confirms the device will essentially 'stay in its lane' and not interfere with other radios when operating." The reports we found are tests of the IEEE 802.15.4 transmitter functionality -- 802.15.4 is the radio standard Thread runs on. While it supports a number of technologies, the reports mention Thread explicitly.

Thread is the primary wireless protocol for the new smart home standard Matter, which Apple helped develop and that is now the underlying architecture for its Apple Home smart home platform. A low-power, low-bandwidth, mesh networking protocol specifically designed for IoT devices, Thread is shown to be faster than Bluetooth and offers better range, making it ideal for connecting products like smart lights, locks, thermostats, and sensors. [...] So why is it there? The Apple Home app runs on Macs and iPads, and Thread radios could allow them to communicate directly with smart home devices and act as Thread border routers. It's possible Apple is planning to turn your Mac or iPad into a home hub, but iPads used to be home hubs, and the company discontinued that capability for its new Apple Home architecture. Those iPads didn't have Thread radios, though.

Nearly All of Apple's Newest Devices Have an Unannounced Thread Radio On Board More | Reply

Nearly All of Apple's Newest Devices Have an Unannounced Thread Radio On Board

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  • Makes you wonder how they'll bastardize the standard to keep their disciples in their own walled garden.

  • Not really "a radio" (Score:5, Informative)

    by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Thursday June 06, 2024 @06:50AM (#64527003) Homepage Journal

    Thread uses the 2.4GHz band, the same as WiFi and Bluetooth, and not far off some 4G bands. They have one radio device that is software defined, and they just added support for the Thread protocol to it.

    It's the reason why turning off Bluetooth tends to have little to no impact on battery life. It's not a separate radio, it's just a software switch that says "ignore Bluetooth packets" and the hardware remains powered up for WiFi.

    • Re:Not really "a radio" (Score:5, Informative)

      by TypoNAM ( 695420 ) on Thursday June 06, 2024 @09:00AM (#64527273)

      Wi-Fi and 802.15.4/Bluetooth Classic/BLE use different modulation schemes so they are entirely different transceivers even though they almost operate entirely within the same ISM band. Bluetooth's frequency band is actually slightly larger than 2.4 GHz Wi-Fi for FCC/IC regions.

      For single package/chip components that support both 2.4 GHz Wi-Fi and Bluetooth have two dedicated radio transceivers that will operate in co-existence mode when both are enabled for transmit, however both may receive at the same time.

      It's the reason why turning off Bluetooth tends to have little to no impact on battery life. It's not a separate radio, it's just a software switch that says "ignore Bluetooth packets" and the hardware remains powered up for WiFi.

      The whole reason for Bluetooth, and even more so for Bluetooth Low Energy, is a low-power personal area network (PAN). So turning it off I would expect it to show little to no power usage impact for say a mobile phone or tablet that mostly communicates over Wi-Fi or cellular network. Now days we have BLE beacons used for tracking items that lasts for years on a single coin cell battery.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        They don't work that way these days, they are DSPs that have very little overhead when it comes to demodulating multiple different modulations. I'm not a DSP expert but they are very efficient ASICs with fast ADCs, optimized for the kind of bonkers modulations like 4096-QAM that are in use these days.

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by _merlin ( 160982 )

          Nothing is using 4096-QAM these days - it requires linear power amplification on the mobile device and hence wastes battery power. The GP is correct in that WiFi and Bluetooth are fundamentally different and are implemented with separate hardware, even when it's on the same chip.

    • Reminds me of the time BlueTooth stopped working on my PC notebook, and I had to uninstall the WiFi driver to fix things.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by jonadab ( 583620 )
      So then what is this "Thread" and what does it do? I tried asking Google what a "thread radio" is, and it pointed me back to stories about Apple including one on their recent devices unannounced. Thanks, that clears everything right up.

      • Re:Not really "a radio" (Score:5, Insightful)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Thursday June 06, 2024 @11:34AM (#64527669) Homepage Journal

        Thread is a network protocol based on IEEE 802.15.4, which is a standard for low power mesh networks. Lots of other things use IEEE 802.15.4 for physical and low level networking layers, but they all have different upper layers. One example is Zigbee.

        Thread is unique in that every device on the network has an IPv6 address, or at least is addressable by one.

        Thread is used by the Matter standard for IoT devices, which is supported by Google, Apple, and many others. Matter is quite good really, it works fully local only and the IP based interface makes it easy to interoperate with.

        There is an open source reference implementation of Thread. Apple will use it to control IoT devices in the home.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by kenh ( 9056 )

        So then what is this "Thread" and what does it do? I tried asking Google what a "thread radio" is, and it pointed me back to stories about Apple including one on their recent devices unannounced. Thanks, that clears everything right up.

        Apparently your "investigation" didn't include reading TFS all the way to the third paragraph, so I'll repeat it here:

        Thread is the primary wireless protocol for the new smart home standard Matter, which Apple helped develop and that is now the underlying architecture for its Apple Home smart home platform. A low-power, low-bandwidth, mesh networking protocol specifically designed for IoT devices, Thread is shown to be faster than Bluetooth and offers better range, making it ideal for connecting products like smart lights, locks, thermostats, and sensors.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

          To be fair, it's wrong. Thread is an IP protocol. IEEE 802.15.4 is the actual wireless protocol. "Thread radio" doesn't really make sense.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by James McP ( 3700 )

          Thread is the primary wireless protocol for the new smart home standard Matter

          Which is actually incorrect. The primary wireless radio for Matter is WiFi. Wifi is far and away the most prevalent radio used in Matter devices.

          In contrast, the primary use case for Thread is in Matter. Aside from a few Nest accessories, Thread was going nowhere in the consumer space. It is still problematic as Thread network conflicts are still common.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by ZipK ( 1051658 )

        So then what is this "Thread" and what does it do?

        You have to read through the explanation that was buried in the third paragraph: "Thread is the primary wireless protocol for the new smart home standard Matter, which Apple helped develop and that is now the underlying architecture for its Apple Home smart home platform. A low-power, low-bandwidth, mesh networking protocol specifically designed for IoT devices."

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by lordlod ( 458156 )

      Also the radio device they use is a module, probably a Broadcom module.

      The protocol stuff is all handled within the module. To certify the device properly handles the protocol they don't have to redo all the testing, they just need to attach the existing Broadcom certification.

      The FCC certification including Thread support likely means that the module they are using happens to include Thread support rather than any indication of Apple's support or intentions.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dfghjk ( 711126 )

      I love how they call it a "Thread radio" when it's 802.15.4, a standard that has existed for a very long time. Thread is a protocol, the "Thread radio" is more appropriately called a "Zigbee radio". And what's the mystery about them integrating it? Apple has product plans, duh.

  • We already have 433MHz, Z-Wave, Zigbee, and WiFi for home automation. Why one more?

    • Re: What can Thread do? (Score:5, Funny)

      by ZERO1ZERO ( 948669 ) on Thursday June 06, 2024 @07:03AM (#64527035)
      Really? You are gonna make me do this? OK you asked for it : [xkcd.com]https://xkcd.com/927/ [xkcd.com]

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by supremebob ( 574732 )

      Could Apple use this to build a peer-to-peer messaging network of iPhones to be used in the event where there was a massive outage with the local cellular networks?

      I'd love to give Apple the benefit of the doubt on this one, and hope that they're building something that might actually be a benefit to humanity someday instead of building yet another home automation protocol.

      • the software is already out there, research mesh network

        • the software is already out there, research mesh network

          Yeah but it isn't mass deployed and only the people that read sites like this would be ready for that in some sort of outage. If it was built-in to iPhones, then half the people would be ready to use mesh and it could just happen automatically.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by kenh ( 9056 )

        Current model iPhones have, off the top of my head, cellphone data, WiFi, BT, and freaking satellite radio capabilities [apple.com] as-is, and now is adding the tether protocol also - was there really no way to put iPhones into a peer-to-peer network before tether was added?

    • We already have 433MHz, Z-Wave, Zigbee, and WiFi for home automation. Why one more?

      Thread works on the existing 2.4Ghz frequency, uses the same antennas, and plays nicely without interfering with your Wi-Fi networks.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by dfghjk ( 711126 )

        "without interfering with your Wi-Fi networks"

        Depends on your definition of "interfere". They do "interfere", however they can coexist.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Ksevio ( 865461 )

      Thread is a bit different because it uses IP routing (via a border router) which makes it compatible with the hub standard "Matter". WiFi also meets that criteria, but Thread shares the benefit of Z-Wave/Zigbee in being a mesh network so it's more resilient with lots of devices connected and low power devices can connect more easily without needing lots of APs

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dfghjk ( 711126 )

      One new standard that everyone can support, and that Apple can close off to collect royalties.

      And a "Thread radio" and Zigbee are the same thing, in this context.

      • One new standard that everyone can support, and that Apple can close off to collect royalties.

        And a "Thread radio" and Zigbee are the same thing, in this context.

        Apple, Google, Amazon and the OTHER 675 Corporate Members (Brands) of The Connectivity Alliance are "Making This Go"; so it seems to be Quite far-along to Actually Be Something That Works. For You and Me. For Fucking once. . .

        Yes, Everyone Knows that Thread is a close Cousin to Zigbee; but that doesn't make it Bad. Zigbee has good Range, Low Power and supports those Handy-Little MESH "PAN"s.

        But, for now, just be glad you (and we all) can finally have a Decent Selection of Home Automation and Security Periph

      • One new standard that everyone can support, and that Apple can close off to collect royalties.

        And a "Thread radio" and Zigbee are the same thing, in this context.

        Matter is Open Source.

        https://handbook.buildwithmatt... [buildwithmatter.com]

  • ... that hardly anyone wants or will use, is another thing that could be hacked to gain access to the machine but will no doubt jack up prices anyway.

    I never got the whole home tech stuff. When did getting off your backside to operate a light switch become a problem that needed to be solved? And no , a TV remote is an equivalent - I could flick through 20 channels to find something, I don't flick a light switch on and off 20 times before I'm done.

    • On occasion being able to remotely control my garage door has been handy such as when on vacation and worth the $50 worth of convenience I paid for that but light switches... I guess having lights turn on n off on a timer while out of town would be nice too but there are low tech solutions for that, too.

    • >When did getting off your backside to operate a light switch become a problem that needed to be solved?

      It's far more than light switches, though that's how most people start.

      It allows for things like having lights turn on as you enter a room, or putting them on a semi-random schedule to make a home appear occupied while you're on vacation (a regular timer fools nobody). Or turning off that light you somehow missed on your way to bed that night.

      Then you can move on to adding your thermostat and having i

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by DarkOx ( 621550 )

      This - I don't get peoples fascination with turning on and off lights, hvac, etc. I get the industries fascination because its well 'easy to do'

      Most of the cases that are valid - I don't want to come home to a dark house at night, etc are easily addressed with a photo switch from 30 years ago, on a hall light.

      What would be 'interesting useful' is if for example you could have temperature and rain sensors that could make decisions like its warmer outside than in and its over 68 degrees out, open all second

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by kenh ( 9056 )

        This - I don't get peoples fascination with turning on and off lights...

        This [youtube.com]

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by DrXym ( 126579 )

      I've never gotten it either. I have a few gadgets like a robot vac I might run when I'm not home. It has an app. For everything else, I just turn it on when I need it and turn it off when I don't with a switch. I'm sure there are people so fantastically lazy or living in mansions who might appreciate some way of turning on the lights on / off from a single command. For everyone else it just seems like massively expensive way to do what they can do from a simple switch on the wall.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Ksevio ( 865461 )

        These days it's more for the techie type people, the ones that would write a shell script to automate their job, but it's rapidly expanding and becoming more accessible

        There are lots of useful reasons for connecting devices and automating tasks. Lighting, HVAC, security, common tasks. China makes lots of cheap devices (that can run locally, no possible way to connect to the internet) so it's not even an expensive hobby

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by DrXym ( 126579 )

          This smart home things, with perhaps the exception of Home Assistant are very much intended for consumers. Maybe consumers who are attracted to tech gadgets but still consumers. Personally I don't get it and I develop IOT stuff (for factories). Spending 10x much on a "smart" bulb that must be constantly on just so someone can turn the lights on with a voice command instead of a switch makes no sense to me. I can see there are niche uses, possibly some security ones. But there are also low tech solutions to

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Ksevio ( 865461 )

            I have some smart switches and smart bulbs. The smart bulbs are nice since you can adjust the color temperature but they cost $10-$20 each. Smart switches can use any lighting fixture so they're cheaper and easier in some situations.

            I don't use voice commands to turn on a light, that's just like needing to flip a switch. Mostly I have motion/presence sensors or tied to things like doors opening or timers tied to the sun. It means I almost never need to turn on or off a light (still have a couple like in

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dfghjk ( 711126 )

      but you may need to change 20 different light switches in multiple locations to turn lights on an off in a room. Perhaps if you had more than one light source in a room you'd understand?

      Also, curious you thing this is only about lights?

    • I could flick through 20 channels to find something, I don't flick a light switch on and off 20 times before I'm done.

      Depends on how much Acid. . .

  • I read about this months ago dunno why itâ(TM)s suddenly news again.

    Apparently this thread radio thing or whatever just happens to be part of the wifi chip same as many mp3 players would have an fm radio in them because thats what the chip the use is capable of. Not every mp3 player revealed the fm radio to the user.

    Apple just happen to be using a chip that does other things that also has this functionality.

    We know about it because they have to present any radio device to the fcc .

    Apple h

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      I read about this months ago dunno why itâ(TM)s suddenly news again.

      Because posting anything Apple related on Slashdot gets the Apple-haters to pile in by the bus-load and if you embed Android related ads in the story you get lots of clicks and advertising $$.

  • 1984 (Score:1, Flamebait)

    by fluffernutter ( 1411889 )
    Doesn't this kind of seem like the thing that the 1984 commercial stood against?
    • apple is the kind of thing the 1984 commercial stood against. They just marketed themselves as otherwise.

  • put better radios in (Score:5, Interesting)

    by FudRucker ( 866063 ) on Thursday June 06, 2024 @08:40AM (#64527215)
    make smartphones and tablets with SDR all mode transceiver radios that cover 100 KHz to 5 gigahertz with AM FM CW SSB and include the software to use it as a receiver, the only transmissions it can do is what the phone needs to communicate for cellular and wifi,

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by alta ( 1263 )

      Please no. I have my beginner HAM license. I don't need kids on iphones joining in on the Nets. What a nightmare.

    • Sure, put a free police scanner into every cell phone. I'm sure the police/military will have no problem with that.

      • if the police & military want their communications secure it is up to them to secure their communications, i have several radios now that cover all those frequencies right now and it's completely legal

        • In some jurisdictions, having a police scanner on you while committing a crime is illegal, and gets you a separate charge.

          Would be interesting to see every criminal with an iphone be charged for that.

          • i dont commit crimes so i wont have that problem, i would enjoy having such a radio in my phone, i have a scanner that sits on the shelf collecting dust because vhf/uhf mostly abandoned now, besides i think the police use the same frequencies and share the same repeater towers as your cellphone making those police scanners useless for monitoring the police, they are good for other things like ham radio frs/gmrs, marine & maritime radio like the coast guard and tug-boats shipping ports

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by elebrin ( 844422 )
      That wouldn't work as well as you think it would. SDRs (like the RTLSDR) have some serious drawbacks, many of them antenna related.

  • Nothings funnier (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Plumpaquatsch ( 2701653 ) on Thursday June 06, 2024 @09:56AM (#64527413) Journal
    Nothings funnier than Apple haters insisting an industry standard is some Apple development they use to keep their user in its "Golden Cage" (TM) (R).

  • Didn't they start doing NFC the same way? suddenly a new model phone came out with an NFC radio, but they didn't' have many plans for it. Now apple pay, NFC read/write apps, device pairing, contact sharing, etc can work with it. Maybe not all of those are NFC based, but some are.

    And honestly I'm interested in anything that will make pairing new smart devices easier. I have 18 brands of devices at the house and 17 different apps to get them set up. At least once they're set up I can control them all wit

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Ksevio ( 865461 )

      Hue use zigbee which the echo supports. Sounds like all the other devices are Wifi, so they would benefit more from a Matter hub for connecting to your network and being controlled. It's a technology that pairs with Thread so in the end everything could be used in one place

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by alta ( 1263 )

        Yeah, i just bought a new plug (Kasa) and paid the extra $5 to get the version with Matter. I was able to add it to alexa without downloading the Kasa app, which was nice. I've learned that all the features that the individual apps give me end up causing me problems in the long run.

  • >> Thread is shown to be faster than Bluetooth [...] making it ideal for connecting products like smart lights

    So my lights turn on in 100 milliseconds, versus 200 ms today..... wow. Sounds incredibly useful.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dfghjk ( 711126 )

      It matters when you have to turn on 20 lights in a scene.

      Poor and ignorant is no way to go through life.

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