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Network The Internet Wireless Networking

Cleveland Launches Ambitious Plan To Provide Citywide Dirt Cheap Broadband (techdirt.com) 88

Posted by BeauHD from the no-longer-being-ripped-off dept.
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Techdirt: Cleveland has spent years being dubbed the "worst connected city in the U.S." thanks to expensive, patchy, and slow broadband. Why Cleveland broadband sucks so badly isn't really a mystery: consolidated monopoly/duopoly power has resulted in a broken market where local giants like AT&T and Charter don't have to compete on price, speeds, availability, customer service, or much of anything else. Data also shows that despite billions in tax breaks, regulatory favors, and subsidies, companies like AT&T have long refused to upgrade low-income and minority Cleveland neighborhoods to fiber. These companies not only engage in this deployment "redlining," but data also makes it clear they often charge these low income and minority neighborhoods more money for the same or slower broadband.

Last week I spent some time talking to Cleveland city leaders and local activists about their plan to do something about it. On one hand, they've doled out $20 million in COVID relief broadband funding to local non-profit DigitalC to deliver fixed wireless broadband at speeds of 100 Mbps for as little as $18. On the other hand, they've convinced a company named SiFi Networks to build a $500 million open access fiber network at no cost to taxpayers. SiFi Networks will benefit from a tight relationship with the city, while making its money from leasing access to the network to ISPs. [...]

Local activists like DigitalC CEO Joshua Edmonds tell me they hope the project teaches U.S. towns and cities that there are alternatives to being feckless supplicants to regional telecom mono/duopolies: "This is a major victory, and I hope that people don't look at it as just a major victory for Cleveland. Every city where there's a prevalent digital divide, where there's political will and ability to execute, people should be paying close attention to what happens in Cleveland, paying close attention to how DigitalC was able to fight and navigate with our coalition of stakeholders."
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Cleveland Launches Ambitious Plan To Provide Citywide Dirt Cheap Broadband More

Cleveland Launches Ambitious Plan To Provide Citywide Dirt Cheap Broadband

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  • "Cleveland has spent years being dubbed the "worst connected city in the U.S." thanks to expensive, patchy, and slow broadband."

    Really? Is that really the reason the city has spent years in that condition? How about we prove it with an audit first.

    See how many time(s) the city/state/municipality/county has hit up local taxpayers for one of those "next generation" broadband initiatives in the last 20 years. Then see if the same failed project managers are asking for another round of funding, because they really mean it this time. Pinky swears.

    Maybe one day rural America will actually get upgraded, with a few monopolies busted alo

    • Re:Audit First. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by sjames ( 1099 ) on Monday October 23, 2023 @06:31PM (#63947363) Homepage Journal

      What makes you think there have been ANY municipal broadband initiatives?

      Now, if you want an audit of how the telcos have delivered on their promises in exchange for tax breaks, subsidies, and easements with a claw-back at the end, I'd say you're on to something.

      • Re:Audit First. (Score:4, Interesting)

        by geekmux ( 1040042 ) on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @12:07AM (#63948027)

        What makes you think there have been ANY municipal broadband initiatives?

        I wasn't exactly requesting an audit of broadband initiatives. I want to know how many times said municipality has received funds or provided breaks to make those initiatives actually happen in the past that obviously never did. Then you fire any official who was involved before and replace them. Fire all of the blatant corruption providing business incentives to market giants in exchange for not the broadband promised to the public.

        If you don't do that first, we'll be here bitching about the same problems 5 years from now, and Cleveland will still be Americas worst connected city. This is a fucking corruption problem, not a technical one. Solve the problem.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by sjames ( 1099 )

          AT&T has been gulping down the subsidies, tax breaks, and grants all over the country, federal and state and has failed to deliver every time.

          • AT&T has been gulping down the subsidies, tax breaks, and grants all over the country, federal and state and has failed to deliver every time.

            Consumers have long been under the delusion that fighting this is a matter for AT&T customers. It's not.

            This is a matter for citizen voters to address. AT&T or any company gets away with that shit, because political support. Time to stop electing Greed N. Corruption.

      • But, but, but... these are poor people! They obviously don't deserve the same quality & price internet services as the rest of us. This is capitalist America, not a socialist country!

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by whitroth ( 9367 )

        Sorry, you seem to have missed where the telcos sued municipalities to keep them from doing this. Search "municipality sued to prevent broadband" and it goes on and on.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by sjames ( 1099 )

          I didn't miss that at all. I was just pointing out that given there have been no municipal broadband initiatives, OP's demand to audit them makes no sense.

    • Re:Audit First. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by ArchieBunker ( 132337 ) on Monday October 23, 2023 @06:39PM (#63947393)

      Ohio republicans tried to ban municipal broadband. https://www.cleveland.com/open... [cleveland.com]

      • Have you ever worked for a municipality?? What makes you think they can provide cheaper broadband than T-mobile or Verizon or AT&T or Charter? The only way it can be cheaper is with subsidies from rich people (taxes) which will just give another reason for people to move out of Cleveland. The population of Cleveland is 1/3 of what it was in 1950. Everything sounds easy to Democrats when using other people's money.

        • How about the fact that most government entities in the US are forbidden from profit and must provide service "at cost"? Which cost can be shockingly low. This is exactly how other countries manage to provide great service at a fraction of what US citizens pay.

        • Have you ever worked for a municipality?? What makes you think they can provide cheaper broadband than T-mobile or Verizon or AT&T or Charter?

          I'd actually pay extra for my connection coming from a small local company. If something goes wrong I'm not stuck with a chat bot or helpdesk in India. You think a big corp wouldn't gouge customers at the first chance?

          • So let me get this straight, Cleveland has horrible internet service because if a monopoly/duopoly, so the answer is to consolidate all ISPs to buy service from ONE fiber backbone, effectively their own monopoly, but the city doesn't own it - they are giving the monopoly to a private company!

            On the other hand, theyâ(TM)ve convinced a company named SiFi Networks to build a $500 million open access fiber network at no cost to taxpayers. SiFi Networks will benefit from a tight relationship with the city, while making its money from leasing access to the network to ISPs.

            Why does Cleveland think SiFiNetworks will be a more benevolent monopoly than their current ones?

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by Teun ( 17872 )
              Because SiFi is set up to lease lines to other ISP's, something most monopolies would refuse at any cost.
              This is how it typically works in many EU countries, a city or county only allows you to trench a fiber line providing you are open to other ISP's, and it works, EU internet is usually cheaper than in the US.
              And there are the exceptions to prove it.
              • This. Sifi's building out fiber in my old hometown, and they advertise that they're not an ISP, but point you towards the ISPs they're working with.

        • Have you ever worked for a municipality?? What makes you think they can provide cheaper broadband than T-mobile or Verizon or AT&T or Charter?

          I have been around for several decades now, lived in multiple cities in multiple states and have always found municipally provided services to be effective and reasonably priced. So there's that.

          Then there are multiple examples already of cities providing cheap effective broadband, at least until state legislators controlled by industry lobbyists shut it off. [broadbandnow.com] Chattanooga, Tennesee shows that it can be tremendous success, despite the efforts of the lobbyists and legislators to crush it. [thedailybeast.com]

        • There are many examples of cities providing services cheaper than private companies. You just have to pull your head out of your ass and go look for it. There's no reason why an organization set up not for profit cannot do a better than than an organization set up for profit to do the same thing. If you believe otherwise, you are in a cult.

          • There are countless examples of when it didn't work also. So you ate much more likely to be in the cult of communism

            • There are even more examples of capitalism fucking over everyone else. Privatizing profits and socializing costs. Walmart making billions and yet pushing a large segment of their workforce onto food stamps. Companies setting up subsidiaries to hold all the liabilities and declare bankruptcy when issues happen, while the main company keeps all the profits. So, not only are you blind, you are not capable of recognizing you are blinded by your own cultism, and instead, starts throwing labels at others. Pa

              • Typical liberal resorting to name calling when called out So in your scenario when the company gives up its profits to workers - what happens when they have a down quarter/recession or a competitor that charges less. Will the workers be willing to cut their pay or lose their jobs? Because that's how capitalism works. Money doesn't grow on trees. Do you think investors would buy shares of stock in something that doesn't pay anything because the money goes to workers?? Nope

                • Damn. You drunk deep from that well. In our end stage capitalism, the companies do not give profits to workers. They give it to the share holders. $1.2 *TRILLION* in 2022.

                  https://www.bloomberg.com/news... [bloomberg.com]

                  Stop masturbating over how companies "save money" for a rainy day. They mostly don't.

                  • Maybe they need to teach kids to buy shares of stock like everyone else. Workers are payed for their skill level all across the globe. Some are able to strong arm more with unions. But why would someone ever buy shares of stock if they got nothing and the workers took it. There would be no investment or ability to match competition.

        • Build a cooperative then and get the political corruption out of that business.

          The population that's left either wants to fix this problem, or they don't.

      • Re:Audit First. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by MIPSPro ( 10156657 ) on Monday October 23, 2023 @08:18PM (#63947621)
        When people ask me why I don't think Republicans are free-market advocates, I point to things like this. They tend to want regulation that favors big business. Then again, so do the Democrats. Professional licensing and permits for hair braiding salons anyone? Both parties seem to think they aren't doing their jobs if they don't make a big pile of unworkable, self-serving, pointless rules for those other people to follow. I wish they'd both leave us the hell alone and quit "protecting" us with legislation that boosts the fat cats only.

        • When leaders want to ban something that isn't for obvious reasons (danger to the public, detrimental to your health, etc.), the first question citizen should be asking is:

          "Fine. What is your solution to ________ related problem(s) then, because a ban, isn't one. Do not explain your action. Justify it."

          Only one way we're going to replace the politicans with actual Representatives. Make them live up to their proper title, and replace them if they fail to. Their position of temporary power exists so that

        • There are almost no Republicans in Cleveland proper (though there are some in the suburbs and many in the surrounding, semi-rural counties).

          Every precinct votes solidly Demoncrat, every time. Every single precinct. Every single time. That's been true for at least 35-40 years, ever since most of the middle class moved out, along with pretty much everyone else who possibly could.

          Republicans do have a little more power at the state level, so if a company wants to influence a corrupt Republican, that's more

    • uh, Cleveland is not 'rural America'

    • Cleveland has some of the worst concentrated, multigenerational poverty of any large-ish city in the U.S.

      One of the highest rates of violent crime as well, one of the highest rates of death from drug abuse, and many, many other related problems.

      Crap public transportation (which used to be much better), crap other infrastructure, crap politicians, crap politics, SEVERE middle-class flight to the suburbs and exurbs as well as migration out of the area, with very little in-migration replacing it.

      There are good

  • Wouldn't be the first time (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Szeraax ( 1117903 ) on Monday October 23, 2023 @06:17PM (#63947321)

    UTOPIA fiber is available for hundreds of thousands of Utahns as an open access network that allows ISPs to join at will. UTOPIA charges ISPs a monthly "interconnect" fee per customer and it is stupid good service and satisfaction among users.

    • The thing is: people in Utah are a lot more honest than people in Cleveland. Not everyone is the same. What works in Utah might end up just being a giant scam in Cleveland.

      • Yikes! I hate it when you're right. And I can totally see how predatory sharks that have been feeding on the other attempts are just circling the waters looking at how they want to attack this latest piece of fresh meat.

  • Yet another example where it makes more sense for the network to be government owned.

    If road, water and electrical networks were owned by private companies they would be subject to similar monopoly abuse.
    Maintenance of those government owned networks can be farmed out to private companies with competitive bidding, and the services provided by those networks could (and probably should) be private, with service providers paying a fee for use and maintenance of the network.

    • So you want the networks to be run by the government, as in the same government that is giving serious consideration to the idea of banning TikTok? Yeah, I can't see anything going wrong with that idea.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Tyr07 ( 8900565 )

        You're right but for the wrong reasons. TikTok is a poor example and not having tiktok is probably only a benefit to society.

        • You're right but for the wrong reasons. TikTok is a poor example and not having tiktok is probably only a benefit to society.

          TikTok is the right example because a government that uses its powers to remove a service from the internet won't stop with just one. The fact that some people even think it's a good idea also demonstrates how quickly the slope can become slippery, because there's also people out there who'll start saying things like "You know, I'd really like it if next the government did something about the porn..."

          "...only to benefit society, of course."

          • Re: (Score:3)

            by HBI ( 10338492 )

            This was the reason why USG ownership of the network was considered anathema back in the day. That said, I long for the day when internet access is finally ready to be turned into a public utility.

          • You really do have a persecution fetish.

            • You really do have a persecution fetish.

              Keep in mind the state I live in briefly made it legal to run over protestors, and revoked Disney's tax district essentially because Disney issued a small press release expressing their disappointment over the "Don't Say Gay" law. To paraphrase that famous quote about paranoia, it's not a persecution fetish if they really are intent on infringing your rights.

              It is absolutely not a stretch of the imagination that if the broadband service was controlled by the government, they'd start imposing their own idea

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Tyr07 ( 8900565 )

            No it's a bad example. Tiktok is garbage, and you're not going to get a lot of sympathy from respectable people if Tiktok was gone.

            You followed up with some good reasons, but the other reasons Tiktok is bad is that it's been proven to gather details on American citizens and provide them to the Chinese Government (But they're totally not doing that, swearzies). Many applications have been banned in the past or prevented from operating due to their dubious nature. Especially for Government employees.

            Acting li

        • interesting sig you've got there...

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by PPH ( 736903 )

      My electrical utility is privately owned.

  • Great at the beginning, then it sucks (Score:3, Insightful)

    by zimm0who0net ( 900786 ) on Monday October 23, 2023 @09:12PM (#63947721)
    I used to live in a community that had a publicly owned Cable TV network in the metro Boston area. It started off great. Cheaper than the neighboring cities. Better service. Then it went downhill. They didn't have the heft to negotiate carriage contracts with the new channels, so they languished at about 15-20 channels, while everyone else was in the 50-100 channel range (yes, this was a long time ago). When it came time to invest in new infrastructure, things like the senior center, a new high-school football stadium, or nicer bathrooms at the park took priority. Then the service started to suck as "John" got hired to run the infrastructure, whose main qualification was that he was a cousin of the town administrator. Eventually the town got pissed and passed a referendum to sell to the major company in that area (who eventually sold to Comcast).

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by vivian ( 156520 )

      The physical media (ie. the actual cables and distribution amps etc) are the bit that needs to be in public hands - and in the case of CableTV, allocation of the available spectrum, which could be done as a bidding system, or by whatever the area decides is worthy, or a combination of the two (some public access channels with free content for example, and some channels that are subscription based).
      Did the Boston network fail because there were no content providers that wanted to provide channels, or because

  • Be ready for the shills to oppose it. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by H_Fisher ( 808597 ) <h_v_fisher@y a h o o . com> on Monday October 23, 2023 @09:41PM (#63947783)

    I used to work in Salisbury, N.C. which in 2011 announced a rollout of a citywide, local-government-backed fiber internet service called Fibrant. Any time the local newspaper wrote a story that even mentioned Fibrant - even if it was a passing mention, not about the service itself - a bunch of sock-puppet commenters who never commented on *any* other stories would appear to begin decrying it as a waste of taxpayer dollars, a boondoggle, a government overreach, etc. (This was before the local paper tied its article comments into Facebook, which is another story altogether.)

    It was an open secret that the company then known as Time Warner Cable, now Spectrum (may its executives suffer piles and its shareholders have genital warts for eternity) was behind the campaign. At the time, there were IP logs and suchlike that proved it, but nothing was ever done to shed light on it publicly.

    Fibrant did lose money, and the city's fiber network is now leased by Hotwire and was rebranded. Cleveland, a much larger metro, has a better chance of turning a profit. But the lesson here is, be prepared for the incumbents to use every shady marketing and lobbying tactic possible to weaponize public sentiment against something that could help provide another option - financed, of course, by your current cable and internet fees.

    • So your whole rant is: people complained it was a waste of money, it actually was a waste of money, but if we just try again running headfirst into a wall even bigger and faster, maybe this time it will work. Cleveland this year alone already launched 2 of these projects and cancelled one of them.

      Go back in history on Clevelandâ(TM)s internet projects and literally every year theyâ(TM)re pouring tens of millions in yet another non-market solution.

      • My point is that self-interested opponents of this, or any, public-broadband plan can (and probably will) use their superior funds and marketing skills to sway debate in their favor - even on even proposals that would be financially sound and good for the market.

        The fact that you choose to intentionally misstate my argument and dismiss it as a "rant" doesn't change the truth of that statement.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by guruevi ( 827432 )

          I dismissed it as a rant, because you yourself admitted the project failed, but if only we spend a bit more money, maybe it will work. If it doesn't work on small scale, scaling bigger never helped.

  • Because, not despite. Rewarding established companies by discouraging and damaging their potential competitors is exactly what leads to monopolies. There is no reason a company like AT&T/Charter/Comcast should be fast enough to react to and not be outcompeted by just about anyone with a truck and a Cisco switch, except for government favors at every level from local to federal.

  • ... billions in tax breaks, regulatory favors, and subsidies ...

    If the US government sued these companies for breach of contract and fraud, the behaviour where companies "don't have to compete on price, speeds, availability, customer service" would disappear.

  • Sounds like Windstream in my county, won't improve bad internet. But Spectrum is expanding thru the county in 6-12 months, Goodbye Windstream/Kenetic !

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