Why Apple Put a Thread Radio In the iPhone 15 Pro (theverge.com) 56
On Tuesday, Apple unveiled the iPhone 15 Pro and Pro Max featuring USB-C ports, titanium bodies, and Action Buttons. They're also the first smartphones to support the open-source smart home protocol Thread. The Verge's Jennifer Pattison Tuohy explains how Apple might deploy this wireless connectivity protocol in its ecosystem: The obvious use for Thread in the iPhone is as a Thread border router for the slew of new Apple Home and Matter-enabled Thread smart home devices from companies like Eve, Nanoleaf, and Belkin WeMo. This would mean you wouldn't have to have a HomePod Mini, Apple TV 4K, or other Thread border router to use Thread smart home gadgets with your iPhone. ... [Jonathan Hui, VP of technology at the Thread Group and a software engineer at Google] says that Thread connectivity in a smartphone will allow it to communicate directly with a Thread device. "Compared to existing smartphones without Thread, a smartphone with Thread can communicate directly with a Thread device, without relying on a separate Thread border router or any other communication technology," he said.
Another possibility with direct control is some type of trigger or presence detection. Your Thread devices could know you're home as soon as you walk into the house and respond appropriately. However, presence detection -- something the smart home sorely needs -- would be easier to do with the UWB chips already in most iPhones and HomePods (and is already being done to some extent). As an IP-based mesh protocol, Thread could be a more reliable way to connect multiple such devices to your phone while also having multiple "parent" devices within the same home (such as your iPad, MacBook, or other family member's iPhones). Its IP characteristic makes it easier to maintain a persistent data connection directly to the device, says Moneta. Additionally, Thread being mesh means your device doesn't have to be in range of the controller (iPhone/iPad etc.), as it would with Bluetooth. This could apply to Apple accessories such as the Apple Watch and third-party devices that use Bluetooth, like camera accessories and medical devices. Of course, all of those would need a Thread radio in, too, so that's not going to happen anytime soon. [...]
A popular theory in my X (formerly Twitter) feed after the Apple event was that Thread is in the iPhone 15 Pro line more or less as a freebie. It's plausible that the Wi-Fi / Bluetooth chip Apple is using in its highest-end phones comes as a sort of three-for-one: you pay for Wi-Fi and Bluetooth, and you get your Thread for free! Given that Apple itself doesn't seem to have a clear idea or any concrete examples of what the Thread capabilities will add (beyond a vague "opening up future opportunities for Home app integrations" statement in the iPhone 15 press release), this does seem to be the most likely reason -- for now. Although, Apple rarely does anything without some purpose in mind.
Another possibility with direct control is some type of trigger or presence detection. Your Thread devices could know you're home as soon as you walk into the house and respond appropriately. However, presence detection -- something the smart home sorely needs -- would be easier to do with the UWB chips already in most iPhones and HomePods (and is already being done to some extent). As an IP-based mesh protocol, Thread could be a more reliable way to connect multiple such devices to your phone while also having multiple "parent" devices within the same home (such as your iPad, MacBook, or other family member's iPhones). Its IP characteristic makes it easier to maintain a persistent data connection directly to the device, says Moneta. Additionally, Thread being mesh means your device doesn't have to be in range of the controller (iPhone/iPad etc.), as it would with Bluetooth. This could apply to Apple accessories such as the Apple Watch and third-party devices that use Bluetooth, like camera accessories and medical devices. Of course, all of those would need a Thread radio in, too, so that's not going to happen anytime soon. [...]
A popular theory in my X (formerly Twitter) feed after the Apple event was that Thread is in the iPhone 15 Pro line more or less as a freebie. It's plausible that the Wi-Fi / Bluetooth chip Apple is using in its highest-end phones comes as a sort of three-for-one: you pay for Wi-Fi and Bluetooth, and you get your Thread for free! Given that Apple itself doesn't seem to have a clear idea or any concrete examples of what the Thread capabilities will add (beyond a vague "opening up future opportunities for Home app integrations" statement in the iPhone 15 press release), this does seem to be the most likely reason -- for now. Although, Apple rarely does anything without some purpose in mind.
So many threads (Score:5, Funny)
I thought threads was a competitor to X-formerly known as twitter
Re: So many threads (Score:2)
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I thought threads was a competitor to X-formerly known as twitter
Me too! me too! I thought; what? An alliance with Meta-formerly known as Facebook? And, what? Now Meta-formerly known as Facebook will even spy on you with radio waves, thanks to Apple-formely known as Apple computers Inc. ?
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I thought threads was a competitor to X-formerly known as twitter
Me too! me too! I thought; what? An alliance with Meta-formerly known as Facebook? And, what? Now Meta-formerly known as Facebook will even spy on you with radio waves, thanks to Apple-formely known as Apple computers Inc. ?
You are an idiot!
Hand in your Geek Card Immediately!!!
In this case, "Thread" is a Communication Protocol for Home Automation products. Look it up.
I am amazed I even have to explain this on a site like Slashdot!!!
Is there really anything wrong with WiFi? (Score:3)
Re:Is there really anything wrong with WiFi? (Score:5, Insightful)
When was the last time you pulled a new device out if its box, powered it on and started using it with WiFi without configuration?
Never, which is the correct answer if security is even part of your vocabulary.
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When was the last time you pulled a new device out if its box, powered it on and started using it with WiFi without configuration?
Wi-Fi? No, but if the device also has NFC and Bluetooth, at least in theory, it should be possible to be darn near instantaneous. Bring your phone near the device. An NFC trigger launches the device's setup app. The setup app does a quick handshake over NFC and and gets the device's Bluetooth ID and creates a shared auth token using Diffie-Hellman or equivalent. It then authenticates over Bluetooth and pushes out a Wi-Fi configuration.
To the extent that this isn't possible, it is by policy (e.g. securi
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Bring your phone near the device. An NFC trigger launches the device's setup app.
I try to avoid IoT devices that require setup apps. Often talking to servers in China.
The setup app does a quick handshake over NFC and and gets the device's Bluetooth ID and creates a shared auth token using Diffie-Hellman or equivalent. It then authenticates over Bluetooth and pushes out a Wi-Fi configuration.
You could just use Wifi Protected Setup, which is what people who don't know what they are doing use now. And what then? You check for and change any default passwords, make sure your firmware is up to date? All the things people who use WPA are not likely to do...
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Because wifi sucks for low bandwidth IoT applications. The protocol is heavy for low power battery powered devices and may not even be needed in all situations
No argument here. Just pointing out that shorter radio range is not really a security feature on IoT devices.
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Because wifi sucks for low bandwidth IoT applications. The protocol is heavy for low power battery powered devices and may not even be needed in all situations like say a sensor for an alarm system which usually just sits there in sleep mode until a status change with the sensor and then it chirps out that status change to the base station. Theres no need for two way communication for this.
That's a good reason for the protocol to exist, and I have no objection to that (though I suspect you could do something equivalent with BTLE if you were creative enough about it).
But I still say that a wall-powered bridge between that and Wi-Fi is a superior way to do this in every possible way:
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Not sure what Thread is, but WiFi doesn't work well in a metal box, behind a wall, which is where many of your light switches and outlets tend to be. WiFi +TCP latency is actually horrendous for these kinds of applications, you also don't want a hub-based system, since if the hub is down, nothing works.
Ideally this means communication over the power wire + RF with multi-master control, simple point-to-point microcontrollers over zero-cuts in the power signal which can then be orchestrated by something like
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
WiFi doesn't work well in a metal box, behind a wall, which is where many of your light switches and outlets tend to be. WiFi +TCP latency is actually horrendous for these kinds of applications
Umm, you're not wrong, but a smart switch doesn't need high data rates, it just needs connectivity. Wi-Fi will work with weak signal. It just falls back to more redundant forms of modulation, with reduced bitrates, and higher airtime consumption. This is a problem if you're trying to move a large chunk of data. It's a non-issue if you simply need to exchange a few packets to command a switch to cycle.
TCP is the correct transport protocol for this use case. You need confirmation of delivery, which UDP
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It's also a problem if someone else wants to move a large chunk of data, but your dozens of light switches are all taking up air time.
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Idle clients don't consume significant amounts of airtime but the worry is easily negated by having your IoT stuff on a physically (2.4GHz vs. 5 and 6GHz) and logically (different VLAN) segmented WLAN/LAN.
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We're still talking latencies of ~1-200mS for a low-power device to negotiate a WiFi channel, send/receive a DNS query, open an HTTPS connection, send a packet of data, wake up another device, have it negotiate SSL, route the packet of data to it etc., on top of that, you need to wait AT LEAST a few mS for the zero-cut in the AC signal to actually switch (for various electrical reasons) after you've received and verified the data. Host a mini-webserver and do peer-to-peer over WiFi in a light switch, not on
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Not sure what Thread is
It's a protocol for home automation, like Zigbee.
Ideally this means communication over the power wire
A large portion of IoT / Smarthome devices are not connected to power, that is one of their biggest marketing points. I personally have 7 light switches in the house that run on batteries, used because wiring was not possible / too expensive. That said none of them use Thread.
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I must be missing something, because I can't see how a light switch which doesn't have access to wiring can be useful. Or is your home entirely lit by battery power?
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That's what Thread solves. Thread lets devices using things like sub 1GHz radios (which do work well in metal boxes, ask me how I know), and even wired connections like RS485 and powerline comms, all talk to devices over an IP network (like WiFi). It's basically a gateway between them.
That said, RF devices designed for installation in metal back boxes usually make sure they are transparent to RF at the front, to get the signal out. Or you can replace the backbox with a plastic one.
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Not sure what Thread is, but WiFi doesn't work well in a metal box, behind a wall, which is where many of your light switches and outlets tend to be. WiFi +TCP latency is actually horrendous for these kinds of applications, you also don't want a hub-based system, since if the hub is down, nothing works.
Ideally this means communication over the power wire + RF with multi-master control, simple point-to-point microcontrollers over zero-cuts in the power signal which can then be orchestrated by something like a hub. Insteon is a great example, X10 (the protocol, not the spamvertisement website) being its grandparent.
If you don't know what Thread is, then you have no business commenting!
Here, educate yourself, or STFU!
Thread is similar to the MESH Standard Formerly Known As Zigbee. It is based on the lightweight IEEE 802.15.4 Protocol; but unlike Zigbee, it does not require a "Hub".
https://www.theverge.com/23165... [theverge.com]
https://arstechnica.com/gadget... [arstechnica.com]
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Just to let you know, I'm modding your informative comments down because you are delivering the info with insults. As in, you're an asshole.
And you're a COWARD!
FOAD!
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Yes. Thread devices can be lower power, take advantage of mesh networking, and best of all doesn't need its own app to setup. It's fairly similar to the existing zigbee protocol which is already in widespread user.
Combine it with the Matter standard (yeah they're really bad at picking unique names), it makes connecting and configuring a new device easy and secure
WiFi routers fail with high number of IoT devices (Score:2)
Re:WiFi routers fail with high number of IoT devic (Score:4, Informative)
Every problem you outline is easily solvable. :)
An upgrade to the latest Nest WiFi 6 pro hardware has it working, but I still need to reboot about once a week to once a month
Ditch the combined router/ap model and separate those two functions. Choose an enterprise adjacent vendor for the Wi-Fi gear (and the router too if you can afford it). I'll plug UniFi but they're not the only option that would meet your needs. My APs only get rebooted for software updates or power outages long enough to exhaust my UPS. 54 days of uptime currently. It has been years since I can recall the last AP reboot not for one of these reasons. I work with these platforms in commercial environments, triple digit client counts per AP, thousands of clients in total, frequently roaming, and I don't deal with the problems you're describing!
I actually don't like having smart swiches on WiFi, generally. I worry about interference, security, and chatter. I don't want thermostats messing with zoom calls and vice versa. I don't want IoT devices to have access to the outside world by default for security reasons.
Put the IoT gear on a different SSID and limit that SSID to 2.4GHz. Put this SSID on a different VLAN and restrict Internet access as you see fit. Your main SSID can be 5GHz only, or both 5GHz and 2.4GHz if you need the range for a niche (sitting outside?) use case. All modern operating systems will prefer 5GHz where available. Apple is transparent [apple.com] about [apple.com] their thresholds for AP selection and roaming. Google and Microsoft don't publish similar documents, which is annoying, but you can generally use the Apple thresholds for planning purposes and count on other operating systems behaving in a similar manner.
Now you have airtime separation between your Zoom calls and IoT stuff. 2.4GHz can be heavily congested in (sub)urban environments but there will be more than enough airtime available for IoT use cases.
You should also get away from a mesh setup, if you're using that feature of the Nest gear. It rarely works well and always comes with significant performance hit. If you can't properly cover your house with a single AP (you probably can't, mine is only 1,200 square feet, and I needed two) take the time to run wire(s) to the additional APs. It might be easy (I don't mind looking at wires so I ran along the ceiling molding), or it might be a major PITA (fishing cables is never fun) but it'll be well worth the investment in sweat equity. MoCA adapters are also an option. Not my preferred choice, they add a bit of latency and eliminate PoE as an option, but they're way better than mesh.
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Because of all the stuff wrong wtih WiFi. It's a lower power and slower speed protocol, and meshing. 6LoWPAN (Big Trouble In...) and 802.15. It's a public bandwidth, mostly known in the consumer space for low RF power baby monitors and cordless phone sets. But this band is used for "ISM", Industrial, Scientific, and Medical devices (such as smart meters, sensors, monitors). If all the iPhones start using this constantly it would mess up that band for other uses.
For the purposes described in the Fine Su
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Well, security for starters. WiFi implies it has network access and unless the manufacturer secures their stuff, it can likely beco
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If you want to clock some spectrum then use WiFi. One of the benefit of Thread is that it runs on IEEE 802.15.4, which is not new and has been around since 2003 and does precisely zero clogging of anything since it doesn't transmit constantly or constantly handshake.
If you want to replace the battery of your device every few months then use WiFi. Some of us expect our smart trinkets to run on 10 years on one battery which you can do with IEEE 802.15.4 based radios.
If you knew anything about WiFi or Bluetoot
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Do we even need all these extra protocols? We already have WiFi, which has matured nicely over the course of multiple decades into a very highly effective technology. If there really needs to be direct communication between devices with no intermediary, WiFi can work for that also, and we also have Bluetooth. I wonder what part of the frequency spectrum this is going to clog up?
DIE MORON, DIE DIE DIE!!!
Thread (network protocol) - Wikipedia (Score:4, Informative)
For those not familiar with Thread yet:
Thread (network protocol) [wikipedia.org]
It's a follow-on to the Matter [wikipedia.org] standard.
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Matter is the standard for IoT/smart home devices, the part that defines what API they should present and how they can be controlled. It doesn't define the transport layer - how commands and data are transferred from the controller to the device.
Thread is a kind of abstraction layer between the API level stuff and the transport layers. It can use TCP/IP, Zigbee, Bluetooth, and any other system. Thread converts whatever the transport layer used to an IP addressable protocol, i.e. every random Zigbee and Blue
Wow (Score:3)
"Compared to existing smartphones without Thread, a smartphone with Thread can communicate directly with a Thread device, without relying on a separate Thread border router or any other communication technology," he said.
Gosh, sure glad he explained that... /s
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Yeah, several paragraphs, no content, and no explanation of "why".
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Yeah, several paragraphs, no content, and no explanation of "why".
Well, you know that thing that Bluetooth and Wifi do... Well now we have another radio that does the exact same thing except no-one makes devices for it.
/grabs suitcase of VC cash and runs (sound of tyres screeching into the distance).
Why...
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"Compared to existing smartphones without Thread, a smartphone with Thread can communicate directly with a Thread device, without relying on a separate Thread border router or any other communication technology," he said.
Gosh, sure glad he explained that... /s
Border router means the little box you use with home automation wireless networks. Like a Hue Bridge, it has a simple web api on one end, and it speaks the low power wireless mesh zigbee protocol on the other end. Home network to the bridge, then zigbee radio out to the wireless lightbulbs. Other communication technology means Bluetooth or WiFi. Normally you don't use those protocols for things like lightbulbs, but lots of products support them too in case you don't have a bridge or you just want a single d
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I appreciate the explanation you and others provided.
I was making fun of his statement on a much simpler level, though. He pretty much just said "a device that speaks PROTOCOL can speak directly to another device that speaks PROTOCOL (unlike a device that doesn't speak PROTOCOL)." Well, yeah, of course!
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The author seems to be confused about what the "Thread radio" actually is. It's not a separate radio, and every smartphone has one... Because it's just the usual WiFi and Bluetooth connectivity.
Thread is an abstraction layer for protocols like Zigbee and LoRa WAN, where you do need a separate radio. You use a Thread hub to connect them to your WiFi network, and it assigns them an IP address which allows any other device on the WiFi to talk to them.
You can use WiFi and Bluetooth for presence detection too. B
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The author seems to be confused about what the "Thread radio" actually is. It's not a separate radio, and every smartphone has one... Because it's just the usual WiFi and Bluetooth connectivity.
Thread is an abstraction layer for protocols like Zigbee and LoRa WAN, where you do need a separate radio. You use a Thread hub to connect them to your WiFi network, and it assigns them an IP address which allows any other device on the WiFi to talk to them.
You can use WiFi and Bluetooth for presence detection too. Bluetooth is better for that due to shorter range and very low power consumption. Basically you have a receiver that notices your phone is nearby, and assumes that means you are present.
It is a separate radio, your thread hub, that has a thread radio in it. Some AppleTVs have thread radios and act as thread border routers, some don't. When your phone has a thread radio, it doesn't need to go through a thread hub to reach end devices.
Thread radio means https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
I understand where you're coming from, it's not much different from your phone hitting a wireless bridge over 5ghz, then the bridge reaching out over 2.4ghz to some other device. You don't need a second radio
"Freebie"? BAA HAAA (Score:1)
Apple gives NOTHING away for free. Even if it costs them nothing. They would hand-lase these components out of the chip if necessary.
Regardless of the hardware being there, they would still have to develop the software to be able to integrate with some sort of application layer.
As for Threads/Matter, etc. I haven't seen anything of substance come out that much improves upon the original X10, ZigBee, Z-wave. So far, a lot of vaporware. And hesitant to dive in to the latest fad lest one of the vendors ge
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Apple gives NOTHING away for free. Even if it costs them nothing. They would hand-lase these components out of the chip if necessary.
Regardless of the hardware being there, they would still have to develop the software to be able to integrate with some sort of application layer.
As for Threads/Matter, etc. I haven't seen anything of substance come out that much improves upon the original X10, ZigBee, Z-wave. So far, a lot of vaporware. And hesitant to dive in to the latest fad lest one of the vendors gets their nose bent out of shape for something stupid and torpedo's the ecosystem.
Finally - another vector for some drive-by actor to hack. Yea, my mechanical door lock can be picked. But, you have to be standing right in front of my door to do so. Giving me time to have things setup and implement project Castle Doctrine.
Yes office, you can hear me yell the perp. to leave three separate times on the five independent cameras, and that he was well past the door threshold before I lit him up with my rotary cannon. Sorry that there isn't much of him waist up to identify.
STFU, Hater.
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I hate wasting mod points on assholes like you, but I get at least 15 per week, and you really deserve it. Grow up already.
Log in and say that, COWARD!
we need to develop a universal standard (Score:2)
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Open source no more! (Score:2)
Itâ(TM)ll be Apple iThreads Pro before you know it!
Here's my guess (Score:3)
A popular theory in my X (formerly Twitter) feed after the Apple event was that Thread is in the iPhone 15 Pro line more or less as a freebie.
My premise is that if they're doing it, the most likely reason is that they'll have a new, innovative way to violate your privacy or track you better, to better monetize your private life.
No big tech company does anything for free.
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A popular theory in my X (formerly Twitter) feed after the Apple event was that Thread is in the iPhone 15 Pro line more or less as a freebie.
My premise is that if they're doing it, the most likely reason is that they'll have a new, innovative way to violate your privacy or track you better, to better monetize your private life.
No big tech company does anything for free.
STFU, Hater.
Z-wave mesh? (Score:2)