Will Cellphone Tracing Bring a Tolerance of Surveillance? (msn.com) 127
An anonymous reader quotes the Washington Post:
In a matter of months, tens of millions of people in dozens of countries have been placed under surveillance. Governments, private companies and researchers observe the health, habits and movements of citizens, often without their consent. It is a massive effort, aimed at enforcing quarantine rules or tracing the spread of the coronavirus, that has sprung up pell-mell in country after country.
"This is a Manhattan Project-level problem that is being addressed by people all over the place," said John Scott-Railton, a senior researcher at Citizen Lab, a research center at the University of Toronto. He is among a group of researchers and privacy advocates who say there is not enough debate over the consequences and utility of the new surveillance tools, and no indication how long the scrutiny will last -- even as the flood of prying apps are becoming a reality for millions of people, like solitude and face masks....
At least 27 countries are using data from cellphone companies to track the movements of citizens, according to Edin Omanovic, the advocacy director for Privacy International, which is keeping a record of surveillance programs. At least 30 countries have developed smartphone apps for the public to download, he said... In South Korea, millions of people have signed up to use websites or apps that show how the virus is spreading. More than 2 million Australians quickly downloaded a coronavirus contact-tracing app that was released last Sunday.
But 3 in 5 Americans say they are unwilling or unable to use an infection-alert system being developed by Google and Apple, a Washington Post-University of Maryland poll has found.
"This is a Manhattan Project-level problem that is being addressed by people all over the place," said John Scott-Railton, a senior researcher at Citizen Lab, a research center at the University of Toronto. He is among a group of researchers and privacy advocates who say there is not enough debate over the consequences and utility of the new surveillance tools, and no indication how long the scrutiny will last -- even as the flood of prying apps are becoming a reality for millions of people, like solitude and face masks....
At least 27 countries are using data from cellphone companies to track the movements of citizens, according to Edin Omanovic, the advocacy director for Privacy International, which is keeping a record of surveillance programs. At least 30 countries have developed smartphone apps for the public to download, he said... In South Korea, millions of people have signed up to use websites or apps that show how the virus is spreading. More than 2 million Australians quickly downloaded a coronavirus contact-tracing app that was released last Sunday.
But 3 in 5 Americans say they are unwilling or unable to use an infection-alert system being developed by Google and Apple, a Washington Post-University of Maryland poll has found.
Nope. (Score:2)
From my cold, dead hands.
Something's missing there (Score:2)
Maybe it's
1) Something something
2) From my cold, dead hands
3) ???
4) Profit!
Re:Something's missing there (Score:5, Interesting)
There will probably be some responses saying that we don't know if the opt-in/out works or whether its subverting our wishes anyway. Thats not the point of the question posted. Since we can't audit the source code, we have to believe that they respect our wishes. Otherwise, its moot.
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Opt out - leave your phone in another room and only have it on you when you want to use it even when you leave home and land line for the rest. Opt in - take your phone with you where ever you go. It's simply a choice.
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This is an important point. With the Google/Apple solution you can find out if were were near someone who was infected even without submitting data yourself. You can keep it entirely local to your own phone, even disable wifi and cellular networks to be sure.
Obviously it would be better for everyone if you shared your random numbers when you test positive, but even if you don't at least know to go and get tested.
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Coronavirus: OK.
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Very unlikely he'd be in group endangered by the virus. Already the UN Secretary General says that the economic shutdown may kill more children in coming months than the virus did. We may find we panicked, overreacted (in most states) and did the stupidest possible thing.
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Already the UN Secretary General says that the economic shutdown may kill more children in coming months than the virus did
See this is one of those quotes folks love to toss around, but only like the first part of it. For anyone interested the entire thing can be found here [un.org]. In short, those who were already on the edge of economic hardship will find themselves slipping further into hardship potentially bringing with it death. Mostly because those who face economic hardship are typically forgotten about by their Government and now with a pandemic eating their attention, they will be even more forgotten about.
We may find we panicked, overreacted (in most states) and did the stupidest possible thing
Which is your own
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You seem to be confused. You don't seem to realize how many in the USA were living from paycheck to paycheck that have now been suddenly thrown into poverty.
Very ignorant on your part. You don't know much about things around you, do you?
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Mostly because those who face economic hardship are typically forgotten about by their Government
Perhaps the solution is for the Government to actually help out till a vaccine is developed? I mean, perhaps that too socialist for Americans. But what I love the most about the US is how to many the solution to a problem isn't to actually address the problem, but to just put people back into the lesser problem that begat the bigger problem like the bigger problem will never happen ever again. Great idea, bravo!
You don't know much about things around you, do you?
I guess that happens to people with compassion for others in America.
crimes against humanity (Score:2, Troll)
Impeach the lockdown governors. Put them and their collaborators on trial for crimes against humanity. Liberate America.
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I can understand the privacy concerns but lets face it: if you have a phone, the network and by association the TLA of choice in your country knows *exactly* where you are when it is logged on. It *has* to be like that, in order for the phone to work at all.
If you dont trust your phone manufacturer or service provider, then you shouldnt have a phone and stay in the basement wrapped in tin foil.
To go off grid, get rid of your bank account and credit card, your car, your house, cash in your savings, wear a ba
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I can understand the privacy concerns but lets face it: if you have a phone, the network and by association the TLA of choice in your country knows *exactly* where you are when it is logged on. It *has* to be like that, in order for the phone to work at all.
If you dont trust your phone manufacturer or service provider, then you shouldnt have a phone and stay in the basement wrapped in tin foil.
To go off grid, get rid of your bank account and credit card, your car, your house, cash in your savings, wear a balaclava, stop seeing friends and family and hike out into the hills. With a gun.
Alternatively, accept that the track and trace initiatives around the world are being implemented for very good reasons to protect people and jobs and, as described, do not alter the privacy threat surface much, if at all.
There *are* more than 2 choices. One could simply carry their phone in a Faraday pouch/case and only pull it out when you want.
Well, unless the plan is to go full Orwellian dystopia and make it a crime to be without a smartphone tied to you or to prevent it from being tracked/monitored 24/7 and/or made essential to obtain basic survival and economic needs. In that case fuck that, all bets are off and those responsible at the top will get what they fucking deserve first.
Strat
Did it? (Score:4, Insightful)
We already have it. Google already knows everywhere you go if you use Android. Did it make surveillance cool?
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Google already knows everywhere you go if you use Google Play Services.
FTFY
Re:Did it? (Score:4, Funny)
We already have it.
Sure. This is just the government proving to you that it is for your own good.
The first rule of politics (Score:2)
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Yeah, the question asked is as if people aren't already tolerant of continuous surveillance by the government via their cell phones right now. At worst, it just requires a warrant to gather extended information about you.
The horse is way out of the barn, running down the lane a county over. Bit late to discuss closing the barn door now...
Re: Did it? (Score:1)
Hence LineageOS.
No GApps here.
Hell, people overestimate the difficulty of modifying even internals like the baseband OS. Any Russian crack writer can write a mod for you.
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To be fair, you can also amputate most of the spyware in win10, and firewall off the rest.
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It doesn't bypass third party software firewall, nor any hardware firewall. I ran into this issue because I utterly amputate as much telemetry as possible from my win10 and I use a blocklist for known telemetry servers. And apparently there was a timed logic bomb for people like myself at one point, where it literally wouldn't let me browse internet before I let it connect to the mothership. Firewall log showed something like once a second connection attempts by telemetry to one of the known servers at this
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Get Comodo firewall for windows (it's free and doesn't contain any nagware/adware beyond reminding you to update it if you don't let it autoupdate) and configure it to ask you for every new connection with no auto-approval. You'll have to slog through "training" it manually what should and shouldn't be allowed though, and it also has a manual blacklist option that you can populate with all known telemetry servers for win10. Several of those are available on the internet with a simple search.
I'm mostly in ag
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Good on you. Unfortunately I live in a country of five million, where there isn't quite as much competition in that sector, and where rules when it comes to money are taken somewhat more seriously.
All in all, I think this is mostly about us having somewhat different tolerances on what should be allowed to do what. I have less of a tolerance for unwanted behaviour in my PC, but more in my phone.
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In that case, even a rooted device contains google code which likely phones home, not to even mention effectively guaranteed US NatSec code, so you're SOL on smartphones entirely. Then there are hardware backdoor issues.
Same on PCs with intel or AMD hardware. IME exploit was shocking well documented for what it was, and it's all but guaranteed that same issues are on AMD platform that has a similar "PC in PC" structure.
Yup (Score:5, Interesting)
But 3 in 5 Americans say they are unwilling or unable to use an infection-alert system being developed by Google and Apple, a Washington Post-University of Maryland poll has found.
The Android version reportedly requires 6.0 (Marshmallow) or above and my phone runs 4.4 (KitKat). In addition, though I could remedy these, (a) I don't always carry my phone and (b) have Bluetooth disabled (as well as NFC). Not buying a new phone for this.
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The Android version reportedly requires 6.0 (Marshmallow) or above and my phone runs 4.4 (KitKat). In addition, though I could remedy these, (a) I don't always carry my phone and (b) have Bluetooth disabled (as well as NFC). Not buying a new phone for this.
Me too - 4.4. I just like it because the phone is very small. Texting is horrible but I hate texting anyway. And I don't have a phone data plan, and cell data mode is turned OFF. I think I turned it on once at a desperate time. And WiFi is OFF- very rarely on. So other than cell tower triangulation data, I'm not very trackable.
I have 2 other Androids- a 5.something and a 7.something, but they're mostly off, no SIM cards, (so no cell data), etc.
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The Android version reportedly requires 6.0 (Marshmallow) or above and my phone runs 4.4 (KitKat). In addition, though I could remedy these, (a) I don't always carry my phone and (b) have Bluetooth disabled (as well as NFC). Not buying a new phone for this.
Me too - 4.4. I just like it because the phone is very small. Texting is horrible but I hate texting anyway. And I don't have a phone data plan, and cell data mode is turned OFF. I think I turned it on once at a desperate time. And WiFi is OFF- very rarely on. So other than cell tower triangulation data, I'm not very trackable.
I have 2 other Androids- a 5.something and a 7.something, but they're mostly off, no SIM cards, (so no cell data), etc.
Three Android-somethings, mostly off, no data plan, no WiFi, cell data mode is disabled, and the one you do "use" is running a long-dead OS.
When hardware becomes that pointless, the only thing it should be collecting, is dust.
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Kitkat was released in 2013 so your phone is 6+ years old. A quick google suggests that the average smartphone lifespan is 4.7 years so you are doing well. That number might be falling though as newer phones make it harder to replace the battery.
And who says Android phones don't last as long as iPhones? fahrbot-bot's certainly has!
Anyway, trust is the bigger issue I think. My phone is 4 years old and will run it but my government has decided not to use the Google/Apple system and it doesn't seem to be open
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That number might be falling though as newer phones make it harder to replace the battery.
One of the things I looked for was a user-replaceable battery. My phone is a Kyocera Hydro VIBE [kyoceramobile.com] I bought from Ting [ting.com] in 2015. It has a user-replaceable battery, headphone jack and is certified waterproof to 3' for 30m. I'm still using the original battery and it lasts quite a while when off charger (easily +24h). Also has an FM tuner so can use the Next Radio app.
A soda can. (Score:2, Informative)
Instant Faraday cage. No tracking.
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Don't do it. It exploded all over when I did step two.
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Because that's how you get ants.
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Dude, we're geeks.
Not looking cool is being cool for us.
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hey the sharp edges cut my dick off! you owe me a new dick!
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You should have written your post in the "instructions unclear" format. No mod points for you.
We already tolerate surveillance. (Score:5, Insightful)
We just don't like it when we're exploited for no gain of our own or when our embarrassing things are made public/used against us.
Re: We already tolerate surveillance. (Score:1)
Folding like a mollusc with no spine, when facing the slightest headwind.
You are a true hero!
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We just don't like it when we're explicitly told that we're being surveiled.. Otherwise. . . LOOK! SHINY!!
No. (Score:1, Offtopic)
Also: The term is "totalitarian state terrorism", not "surveillance".
And I will make sure that collaborators like you will get a fair trial and will rot in prison when this is over.
Even if I have to hunt you down myself.
Just like my grandpa did in WWII.
Just like my dad did in the Afghan wars.
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Also: The term is "totalitarian state terrorism", not "surveillance".
No no no. The term "terrorism" can only apply if you aren't a member of the 1% club or the action isn't directly intended to help the 1% club get richer.
If the pertetrator in that 1% group then it is called "freedom surveillance" to support "freedom imprisonment" which will protect you from the "communist virus".
I wish I could write /s :(
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Current surveillance is less state surveillance and more corporate surveillance.
Also, I wouldn't throw around big words like "terrorism" in this case. There's very little "terror" in the current system. This isn't China, where saying a wrong thing on WeChat puts you in gulag and your family into starvation, and where having WeChat that you're actively using is effectively mandatory for everyday life in a city. That's state terror.
Ha ha! (Score:2)
Privacy vanished a good while ago (Score:5, Insightful)
100% disagree (Score:3)
and is that information so much more sensitive that we would not give it out in order to save our lives and the lives of others?
For this one purpose, and then they turn it off - MAYBE. But it would never be limited to this one purpose. The ultimate cost will always outweigh the benefits when granting permanent power to governments.
Case in point of government tracking expanding beyond the original purpose: ALPR (license plate readers). 2010 in Kentucky: We're only going to use them to track stolen cars. 20
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Of course, we should try to do everything possible to ensure location data are only used for contact tracing and only for health purposes
The Apple/Google system does not use location data, and it does not enable location tracking. Using it doesn't involve sending any data anywhere -- it happens entirely on your phone -- unless you test positive, in which case you have the option of uploading your random daily keys, if you want. If you choose to do that, then a bunch of other people who were in range of you will find out that they were near someone who was infected, but their devices determine that entirely locally.
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We've given up privacy largely for the sake of convenience, in order to not worry about purchasing online services but instead to simply use them for free.
"We"?
no.... (Score:2)
but they will force it down our throats anyway because its already being done, the is just a formality.
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And by "force" you mean beg, and by "throats" you mean ears.
And no, I didn't install anything.
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but they will force it down our throats anyway because its already being done, the is just a formality.
So true. I've seen way too many people completely losing their ability to critically think or question motives. It's even more effective than the 9/11 government rights grab.
"We're losing our rights but only until they give them back. They said it would help flatten the curve." - Kevin from The Office
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Sheeple, Sheeple Everywhere. (Score:2)
Sheeple, sheeple everywhere, so yes. Our liberties are being eroded in the name of security.
It will go something like this (Score:2)
Smart perpetrators anywhere didn't carry phone to crime scene in which case tracking won't work
Dumb perpetrator in free country ( in china they have already been arrested and executed) gets message to get tested and goes get tested and is then on suspect list as is everyone else
Hasty (Score:2)
Well, it'll sure do one thing: (Score:2)
Twenty bucks says none of the mindless sheep have hunter eyes.
They've been doing in anyway, now it will be legal (Score:1)
Tolerance (Score:2)
Look at how many people use Facebook, and tell me most people don't already tolerate surveillance.
Just this time (Score:1)
I am in Australia and the app here seems designed with privacy in mind and legislation prevents the information being used by law enforcement. In this particular situation I am OK with limited tracking. Once the danger has passed I'll be removing the app.
I resent being tracked but I am aware I'm heavily tracked anyway, and I think the sooner we can reduce infection the sooner we can reopen the country.
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What legislation would that be? It's not yet been written, let alone passed into law - and laws can be changed.
That said, the reverse engineering of it that I've heard of does say that it does what it says it does and nothing else, so that's encouraging.
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Covidsafe doesn’t use “tracking” (Score:1)
I resent being tracked but I am aware I'm heavily tracked anyway, and I think the sooner we can reduce infection the sooner we can reopen the country.
I too agree the Australian app is privacy focused, and legislation is promised to not allow it for any other use than to find cases of SARS-Cov-2 that are hiding the population. No use by law enforcement most importantly.
However you are repeating a misunderstanding about how it works.
The way the Australian Covidsafe app works it doesn’t use “tracking”, which implies the app tracks your location.
That’s wrong - it detects contacts you come near using Bluetooth and doesn’t care wh
Stockholm Syndrome (Score:2)
People are starting to show signs of Stockholm Syndrome [wikipedia.org]. The very fact that they are willing to even put a tracing app on a phone would make the Stasi [wikipedia.org] proud. The western world that for so long criticized what communists did are now willingly doing it, with die hard, nationalistic pride.
It's taken whoever writes these laws for politicians to pass decades to create this scenario now that the context for it has finally arrived. The Stasi had a maximum tracing capability of 40 phone lines and an archive o
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For what it's worth, we passed the "spying on our own people more than Stasi" stage in most of the Western world back in late 2000s to early 2010s at the latest. Snowden's revelations made this clear.
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For what it's worth, we passed the "spying on our own people more than Stasi" stage in most of the Western world back in late 2000s to early 2010s at the latest. Snowden's revelations made this clear.
Now it's gone from covert to overt, that's the difference.
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Not at all. Governments maintain the same veil of secrecy as before. No major leaks have been out since Snowden afaik.
These things are all private sector tracking. They're better in that private sector tracking companies don't have access to meaningful amount of NatSec-grade resources. They're worse in that your vote has far less power over them than it does in public sector.
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Not at all. Governments maintain the same veil of secrecy as before. No major leaks have been out since Snowden afaik.
Indeed, they're just rubbing it in our faces now.
These things are all private sector tracking. They're better in that private sector tracking companies don't have access to meaningful amount of NatSec-grade resources. They're worse in that your vote has far less power over them than it does in public sector.
It's a standard process for compartmentalizing liability and absolving government of responsibility.
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Your last point assumes more competency from governmental structures than what I've seen possible from most government structures ever.
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Your last point assumes more competency from governmental structures than what I've seen possible from most government structures ever.
That's the gambit. Feign incompetence to conceal action. The passage of law and the construction of power attract those who are ruthless enough to wield it.
The problem with out government is.... (Score:2)
The problem with this type of surveillance is similar to other government issues (taxes, laws, regulations). Typically there is an altruistic desire to help us out. Later, they use that "opening" to continue to intrude in our lives.
I'm all for tracking Covid-19 contacts in a way BUT our government will likely find another "reason" for the surveillance beyond Covid-19 tracking and they will find yet one more reason to stick their ugly noses in to our personal lives.
I don't trust our government.
Again? (Score:3)
I mean, how tolerant of surveillance can a society be? If you use Facebook, Google, and Amazon and a hundred other systems then you're already tolerating surveillance. In fact, you're paying for it.
tolerance already reached (Score:2)
The tolerance level of the average people has already been reached.
You can basically presume every device/application/site is logging everything you do, it's the default now.
Nobody, except a minority, still looks up or cares when this is announced.
I'm not surprised anymore any time 'news' about the latest privacy ignoring thing is announced, like i said - you should presume they all do it.
Real news would be when the device/app/site doesn't track your every action!
Privacy-maintaining is solved (Score:2)
https://ncase.me/contact-tracing/ [ncase.me]
Grow-up and stop spreading FUD
Individual benefit vs. risk (Score:2)
I think people will not resist surveillance to the extent they don't see a personal risk in it combined with whatever benefit they might get out of it, often no matter how small.
People are highly tolerant of aggressive traffic stops of drunk drivers or African Americans mostly because they don't see themselves at risk for that kind of treatment because they don't drive drunk or aren't African American.
Cell phone surveillance is even more abstract and harder to tie to any specific personal risk. Unless peop
Yes. That is the plan. (Score:2)
That is what the authoritarians are depending on.
Not to worry though... (Score:2)
"But 3 in 5 Americans say they are unwilling or unable to use an infection-alert system being developed by Google and Apple"
Everything is fine here, let's 'rebel' against 'the man' for trying to track us everybody 'cause he's tracking us! Not really a problem. The rest of the tracking and advertising functions on modern cellphones still work just fine. No worries about not being able to use a fake tower to get location data, your subjects preventing you from tracking every website they go to through FB, et
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Simple rules for surviving a pandemic:
1) Shoot people who violate quarantine guidelines
2) Never install apps
Re: Chickens coming home to roost (Score:2)
Everything we do potentially kills someone.
Yes, the virus is pretty serious on the grand scale of things that kill. But itâ(TM)s very far from hitting an unprecedented high.
I wonâ(TM)t complain about the increased hygiene people practice these days. Thatâ(TM)s certainly a net win.
But this isnâ(TM)t worth locking down the world for. The collateral damage is going to kill way more people in years to come than the virus itself ever could.
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I always knew projection was favored by the Right, but you are off the charts. When your cult leader orders you to drink the kool-aid be sure to drink deep.
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Don't insult Bob Dole like that. He was lucid up until his death. Biden, on the other hand . . .
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Wait he's still alive? He obviously has more common sense than Biden since he stopped running for office.
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I've been cyber-crippled.
Fact.
[rest of lengthy diatribe]
It's clearly your fault.
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You're mentally crippled.
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As sort of alluded to in your first sentence, 'the man' can find out where your phone has been at all times. You don't have to carry it everywhere.
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Well, many of us still use cash.
And in general, there's no real reason to carry your phone with. you 24/7.
People got along just fine back in the days with just hard wired land lines and if you weren't there, well, they'd call back...or later leave a message on the answering mach
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It isn't enough to simply not have your phone with you 24/7.
Sometimes you need to have a friend carry it for a while, so that you can have an alibi.
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Err...what's wrong with just leaving it at home?
And...why do I need an "alibi"?
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Have you tried spending cash recently?
No place that is still open seems to take cash anymore.
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Yes I have tried...and they take it just fine.