Driver Stranded After Connected Rental Car Can't Call Home (arstechnica.com) 311
Over the weekend, tech reporter Kari Paul from The Guardian got stuck in the California boonies by the Internet of Things. Ars Technica's Jonathan M. Gitlin reports: Paul had rented a car through a local car-sharing service called GIG Car Share, which offers a fleet of hybrid Toyota Priuses and electric Chevrolet Bolt EVs in the Bay Area and Sacramento, with plans to spend the weekend in a more rural part of the state about three hours north of Oakland. But on Sunday, she was left stranded on an unpaved road when the car's telematics system lost its cell signal. Without being able to call home, the rented Prius refused to move.
Adding insult to injury, Paul's cellphone was not similarly troubled by the remote location, allowing her to express her frustration, but also to talk to GIG's customer service to try to get the car back in motion. At first, the company's plan was to send a tow truck to tow the Prius a few miles closer to civilization, but that would be too easy. It appears GIG's customer service unhelpfully suggested Paul and her companion spend the night sleeping in the car and trying to start the car again the next morning. Instead, after a six-hour wait and not one but two tow trucks -- the second of which Paul called herself -- plus 20 (!) calls to GIG, the problem was finally solved in the early hours of Monday morning.
Adding insult to injury, Paul's cellphone was not similarly troubled by the remote location, allowing her to express her frustration, but also to talk to GIG's customer service to try to get the car back in motion. At first, the company's plan was to send a tow truck to tow the Prius a few miles closer to civilization, but that would be too easy. It appears GIG's customer service unhelpfully suggested Paul and her companion spend the night sleeping in the car and trying to start the car again the next morning. Instead, after a six-hour wait and not one but two tow trucks -- the second of which Paul called herself -- plus 20 (!) calls to GIG, the problem was finally solved in the early hours of Monday morning.
Quotation irony (Score:5, Funny)
Quotation: "It appears GIG's customer service unhelpfully suggested Paul and her companion spend the night sleeping in the car [...] the problem was finally solved in the early hours of Monday morning."
So... the customer service were QUITE RIGHT after all...
Re: Quotation irony (Score:2)
Re: Quotation irony (Score:5, Insightful)
The perils of the own nothing, depend on big faceless corporations for everything economy.
Re: Quotation irony (Score:2)
Yes, no one should ever rent anything. If you can't afford to buy it, you should just resign yourself to not ever having it, like a good poor person.
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More of the endless whining by right wing lunatics. How exactly is this story about 'socialism'? Seriously, was that a parody? Intentionally or not it is just shitposting.
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More of the endless whining by right wing lunatics. How exactly is this story about 'socialism'? Seriously, was that a parody? Intentionally or not it is just shitposting.
Federal Government USA Inc is just another gigantic conglomerate run by distant out of touch wealthy elite board members and C-suite kleptocrats.
What -- were you thinking that all the same inherently human problems of any large institution magically become un-possible just because we slap an election on top of it once every 4 years?
Actually, given the extensive gerrymandering, voter disenfranchisement and stacking of the US election system in favor of sparsely populated rural states the US government is mostly run by the elected representatives of deeply conservative and devoutly religious fundamentalist rural communities. Right wingers in the US whine piss and moan about how they are being unfairly treated by coastal and urban elites but realistically the US senate for example is dominated by the Republican party which are their own
Re: Quotation irony (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, we are the United States of America, and one of the ways to bring in the smaller states with the larger ones, was to put in place measure to ensure their voices were heard and mattered.
Citizens in Wyoming are. just as important to the Union as citizens in New York.
We don't want it to where the entire country is ruled by and only favors 2-3 large population centers, if you did away with the Electoral College for instance, then the president would only ever be elected and beholden really to the East and West coast of the US.
The middle of the US has vastly different climates, terrains and yes, different thinking that the far coasts and should therefore have a voice that in Presidential selection and government.
You don't like the House of Representatives either?
The wonderful thing about having different states is that pretty much no matter what you think or how you like to live and be governed, you can find a state that caters to your needs and lifestyle.
One size does not fit all in such a large and diverse country, and the way to maintain that, is to make sure ALL states have a say in how the Federal govt runs.
This is all by design, and that is a GOOD thing.
You are a citizen of your state first and then a citizen of the United States...at least, that's how it is supposed to work.
Re: Quotation irony (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: Quotation irony (Score:4, Informative)
t does prevent any one area of the country from completely taking over the process.
No, the process is completely controlled by a tiny handful of states, thanks to selecting electors via "winner take all".
No candidate ever campaigns in the empty states - not enough electoral votes, and they're all going to the Republican anyway.
No candidate ever campaigns in the urban states - while there's more electoral votes, they're all going to the Democrat anyway.
We're left with Ohio and Florida being the only states that matter. That is an utter failure if the system is supposed to prevent a tiny area from taking over the process.
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Swing states change every election.
Citation required.
Scrapping the electoral college means that forever the only places to campaign are the 3 largest cities in the nation
Math says no.
The three largest metro areas in the US are:
NY City area: ~20M
Los Angeles area: ~13M
Chicago area: ~9.5M
Bringing us a grand total of 42.5M people.
Population of the US: 327M
We're going to pretend all of those people can vote, because it makes the comparison far simpler. They can't, and urban areas have a higher percentage of people who can't vote so that assumption actually makes things better for those big cities.
So if we pretend that every single person in those 3 metro areas
Re: Quotation irony (Score:5, Insightful)
Citizens in Wyoming are. just as important to the Union as citizens in New York.
No, they are more important. Because they're given greater power in the House, Senate and Electoral College.
And before you launch into how the House is supposed to be apportioned, keep reading.
We don't want it to where the entire country is ruled by and only favors 2-3 large population centers, if you did away with the Electoral College for instance, then the president would only ever be elected and beholden really to the East and West coast of the US.
Instead, the president is only ever elected by and beholden to half of Ohio and Florida. Wow, that's such an improvement over the entire East and West coasts.
The middle of the US has vastly different climates, terrains and yes, different thinking that the far coasts and should therefore have a voice that in Presidential selection and government.
That's the point of the Senate. We don't need the House, Senate and President to all over-represent rural areas.
You don't like the House of Representatives either?
The House no longer provides equal representation.
There is one rep per ~500,000 people for Wyoming (1 rep, state population is about 500k)
There is one rep per ~750,000 people for California (53 reps, state population is about 40M)
So while you're pontificating on the theory of how we got the Senate, the problem is we applied that same logic to the House and thus President via the Electoral College.
The result is the rural areas are ruling over the urban areas, and that's just as unsustainable as the reverse.
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Sure citizens in Wyoming are important, but they shouldn't be 10 times as important as citizens elsewhere. As the Electoral College just appointed the 2 worst presidents in American history, truly damaging people, it is time for the college to be done away with.
Re: Quotation irony (Score:5, Informative)
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How about enough so that here in flyover country, where everyone owns a gun or 4 and no one cares, and there is no crime - we don't have to deal with tyrannical gun laws imposed by the people in the unsustainable, crime ridden, urban areas?
Sure, they should lose their rights if they vote that way, they've proved they don't deserve them. But we who make their parasitic lives possible might want to have the rights we are responsible enough to manage.
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Wait, you mean those same 'rural swaths' that have disproportionate voting power and effectively rule over the urban and suburban population? Seriously, how much more power do they want?
Yes, where all your food and resources come from.
Computers, pfft! (Score:2)
Computer should not fly planes and they should not decide when you can start a car.
Re: Quotation irony (Score:4, Informative)
In this case I don't think there's any misunderstanding about ownership (unlike digital media), but the parent's point stands that particularly with this level of tethering, an untethered privately owned vehicle offers value that may be overlooked compared to a rental model.
In the current state of affairs I'm not especially concerned about this, as there is ample opportunity to buy, lease, or rent a vehicle. The part that concerns me is that so many companies and media link together autonomous cars with 'these won't be cars that anyone owns, but rather will just be taxis'. Taxi/Rental is being conflated with autonomous cars and that perspective being normalized is risky to the future.
I don't know about the phone things relevance, but I buy my phones free and clear rather than get tied into a free/subsidized phone on contract. This is one area where I'm happy with how things have gone, at least in the US. Back 15 years ago, you couldn't get any cell phone plan that *didn't* include enough to cover monthly payments on a phone. Now you can get 'just service' and additionally there are reasonably serivecable phones even under $150 without plans.
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I don't know about the phone things relevance, but I buy my phones free and clear rather than get tied into a free/subsidized phone on contract. This is one area where I'm happy with how things have gone, at least in the US. Back 15 years ago, you couldn't get any cell phone plan that *didn't* include enough to cover monthly payments on a phone. Now you can get 'just service' and additionally there are reasonably serivecable phones even under $150 without plans.
Prove it. Prove that your phone cannot be bricked by the manufacturer.
Keep in mind that even your unlocked phone allows the manufacturer and/or network for forcibly push new software to it without your permission.
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I'd like to see Motorola try to brick my Z Play, now that it's running /e/ instead of stock firmware. None of the facilities they built in for upgrades are still in place.
I'd expect the same to be true for any other phone not running its stock firmware, whether it's running /e/, Lineage OS, or whatever.
Did you upgrade the baseband OS, also?
Re:Quotation irony (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd like to meet the idiot who thought that "mandating an always-on cell connection for the car to be able to drive" was a good idea.
Re:Quotation irony (Score:4, Insightful)
It probably didn't even occur to them that there could be cases where there is no cell reception.
It worked in testing obviously.
Re:Quotation irony (Score:4, Insightful)
I mean do they even drive or have they ever parked in an underground garage/ramp? Most have zero reception below the first level. I've even been a couple of above ground ramps where some parts of the ramp are so obstructed by the concrete structure and neighboring buildings you don't get useful signal.
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Re: Quotation irony (Score:3)
Because the developers live in a bubble. They probably went with Boost Mobile not realizing its coverage map is shit. Besides, towers can and do go down. I have hit no service areas that weren't always no service.
When a towtruck becomes a tech support solution, thats an indictment on the developers. How about a 1h override code that tech support can issue over the phone? They can use some sort of rolling code like 2FA tools that will still generate a usable code offline as long as it was online sometime tha
Re: Quotation irony (Score:4, Insightful)
Tech companies don't have a clue how the Internet works outside their little urban enclaves. They think gigabyte Internet is just spewing all over the place, and they design software accordingly.
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But it IS a good idea... for GIG Car Share. It has the following effects: ...
1) It will prevent a few thefts - good for GIG Car Share
2) It will also strand a few customers overnight - but who cares, they are not GIG Car Share
3) Those customers will take their business elsewhere - but who cares, this effect is outweighed by effect 1)
4) Those customers will complain to the media - but who cares, for a small startup all publicity is good publicity
5) Profit!
Re: Quotation irony (Score:3)
Those customers will likely sue them out of existence. First time a stranded customer has a medical emergency, this company is done.
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How bad would you get burned for this? (Score:5, Interesting)
If I were to suggest just leaving the car there and calling an uber, how liable for damages would you be?
Re:How bad would you get burned for this? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not very I would imagine, given the safety implications of being stranded there. In fact you could recover your costs from the rental company.
I'd have just done that, taxi home and bill them for it. If they refuse to refund the rental fee dispute that with the credit card company too.
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Full sticker price + ADMIN FEES.
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I'd have lit that motherfucker on fire. They can't prove who was around.
The sci-fi writers were right. (Score:3, Insightful)
How to avoid ? (Score:3)
How do you tell if your rental / loan / car-share / gig economy vehicle has unreliable Internet of Shit Things in it?
Car fails if a cellular network fails is not what I am looking for in my transport.
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Wrap it in tinfoil and see if it starts.
Or just look for the GIG Car Share logo.
Lack of design? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like the product was not actually designed before it was coded, or this use-case would have shown up as an important one, as it can jeopardize safety or even life. But hey, who needs design nowadays, let's just start coding and see what valuation we can get, right?
Re:Lack of design? (Score:5, Interesting)
This is nonsense, I guarantee you that it wasn't a 'coder' that came up with this feature. Either there was some error, or the business decided to instruct the software developers to create it this way. I would say the current problem in business is the exact opposite, any concerns from developers would be entirely ignored.
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Yep. I've been developing telematic systems for 15 years for several companies. There is no way the developers wouldn't have realised that there could be a reception outage.
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Yep. I've been developing telematic systems for 15 years for several companies. There is no way the developers wouldn't have realised that there could be a reception outage.
So, developers don't live on this planet? Where cellular outages can and do occur?
It really amazes me how some of these humans perceived as "smart" have absolutely zero common sense.
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It was probably a case of the software doing what it's supposed to do by flagging this as a potential theft case because the car went to a rural area and went out of coverage for a period of time.
The car going out of coverage alone isn't a big deal, provided its last known coordinates are in its home/urban area -- think of an underground ramp in a city, there's no reception there, but the theft chances are mostly low because it hasn't been taken far from "home".
it's probably an edge case they didn't think a
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There is no way the developers wouldn't have realised that there could be a reception outage.
But they didn't care anyway?
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This is nonsense, I guarantee you that it wasn't a 'coder' that came up with this feature. Either there was some error, or the business decided to instruct the software developers to create it this way. I would say the current problem in business is the exact opposite, any concerns from developers would be entirely ignored.
Finding out your transportation product becomes immobilized by a lack of internet signal that it obviously depends on should have been a red flag in the design phase. It also should have been discovered in the testing phase. Both were ignored by greedy idiots who may not be running a company for much longer.
Re: Lack of design? (Score:2)
Well coders dont always think like engineers. It might not occured to do a whatIF on loss of signal. How can I break this? Is a question most engineers ask right out of the gate. Hacker-thinking coders think this way, but not all coders for sure.
Re:Lack of design? (Score:4, Insightful)
These things have been in use for years with cars on finance. If you miss a payment they remotely disable it, even if you are on the highway.
So they know all about how dangerous and badly designed it is. They just don't care. The product is selling.
There is no fix anyway. If they made it so that the car would start when it doesn't have a signal that would be an easy way to bypass the system. They can't do anything about cell coverage. What are they going to do, admit their mistake and shut down?
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Re: Lack of design? (Score:2)
Yep. Think 2factor auth with the rolling code. They could get an xm receiver, not subscribe, but just use its basic broadcast to get the timestamp. Combine that with the uniqueID of the xm transmitter and perhaps another unique id of the vehicle to generate a unique hourly code. Call into support and they give a 1hr override code. Punch it in and you have 1 hr to drive to a non dead spot. Could repeat this 2-3 times worst case.
Simply awesome ... (Score:2)
Re:Simply awesome ... (Score:5, Informative)
Why not? Different networks have different coverage.
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Do you not know what a peering agreement is?
Is that the arrangement that *some* service provides have with *some* other service providers in *some* other areas? Yeah I know what that is. I don't know why you think it's relevant in this case though since there clearly was none.
Re: Simply awesome ... (Score:2)
Maybe they went with Boost Mobile because if was cheaper.
Her story with more details on the Guardian site (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Her story with more details on the Guardian sit (Score:5, Funny)
and will assess this situation for learnings,
So they have Zathras as there spokes person.
This is an obvious failure mode (Score:3)
Even on busy rural Interstates, there are areas of no cell service. So you're rolling along on, say, I-5 in California and you hit one of those little low spots on the Grapevine where the signal fades out. Does your rental just stop dead in traffic when this hapens?
Re:This is an obvious failure mode (Score:4, Informative)
Yes. This has happened before with cars bought on finance where payments are missed.
The car doesn't usually stop while you are driving, but if the engine stops it won't start up again. So if you are in traffic and the stop-and-go kicks in to turn the engine off while you are stationary... You are stuck in the middle of the highway.
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I'm surprised someone hasn't been hit, leading to a lawsuit.
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It probably doesn't turn off the car the second that the signal is lost. It probably also doesn't count time that the vehicle is turned off, so if you park in an underground lot with no signal it doesn't kill the car. It should give you 15-20 minutes of car-on time to get in and get out.
On the other hand, who knows. This company might be using an existing product like the one AmiMoJo mentioned and they can't customize it. They obviously didn't add an audio warning like "Signal lost, you have 15 minutes befo
Two things (Score:5, Insightful)
First. Ha ha! This is what happens when people think technology will solve all the world's problems by being connected 24/7. Just wait until someone takes out the fiber cable for your home network service and you have everything connected. The howls when people realize they can't turn their lights on or off or use their tv to stream a movie will be glorious.
Second. Stop calling these companies "car sharing". You're not sharing anything. This is a car rental company, the same as Hertz and Avis. You pay a fee to rent the vehicle.
This is the same stupidity as saying Uber and Lyft are "ride sharing". The person who picks you up was not going to the airport, they weren't going to the same club you are, they're not going to the same grocery store you are. They're a cab company.
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So refreshing to hear someone else saying this. I'm sure more realize and think it, but nice to hear others say it too
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Ancillary to those thoughts but not so much for Uber or Lyft, every company now wants you to be an annuity for them. You don't buy anything, you rent it. Pushing that to the limit, the company wants not just an annuity but a continuous annuity. They want a constant flow of your information they can continuously monetize and get you to pay for the privilege. Interrupt that constant flow, and they come down with the heartbreak of psoriasis and you find yourself stranded without their valuable service. Don't b
It was always a pretenese (Score:3)
Calling it ride sharing has always been a sham. This has always been nothing more than a pretense to run a taxi company without having to follow taxi regulations. Taxi's were vastly overpriced due to excessive regulatory costs and that meant it was a market ready for disruption. Problem was that those regulations kept it from being a market that could be disrupted.
The 'problem' was solved by the marketing department. Call it ride sharing and pretend your not actually running the world's largest taxi company
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This is the same stupidity as saying Uber and Lyft are "ride sharing". The person who picks you up was not going to the airport, they weren't going to the same club you are, they're not going to the same grocery store you are. They're a cab company.
I agree with that Uber and Lyft have used "ride sharing" as mere pretense and they are in fact cab companies but I don't think the idea was ever the person was going the SAME place as you.
They might not be going to the same club but we are both headed down town.
They might not work in the same building but we both are in the same office park.
We both might not be headed to the grocery but we both want to go to the same shopping center.
That was the idea, being sold. I agree it does not work that way in practi
Cars require connectivity? (Score:5, Insightful)
[ snark ]
I don't get it. What's so special about modern cars (my newest one is 10+ years old) that requires they have an over-the-air connection to operate? Why isn't the default operating assumption that they are wholly independent, and, should a connection be available, additional opt-in features become available? I should be able to turn off / remove the wireless connection from my car without loss of major functionality other than things like software updates, navigation, etc., that obviously require it. Last I checked, turning either electrical or chemical energy into its kinetic form doesn't require the cloud.
[/snark]
Spyware companies that also sell cars... (Score:3)
1. You can have a roadside assistance program that for most people, works most of the time.
2. The car can be repossessed easily if you stop making payments, because (there is significant evidence that) it reveals it's location regularly to the car company. If the car gets stolen is often "not their problem" however...
3. If you abuse the car by doing things such as driving hard or at high speeds, the car company gets informed of tha
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They simply monetize your continuing feedback, i.e., where you go, how long you wait there, etc. All is fed into some other company's database which wants to keep you in a loving embrace. And you get to pay them for this valuable service.
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And I disagree with point 3 about driving hard or at high speeds. Maybe your insurance company won't be happy but this will have no influence on the car warranty. If things break they will be rep
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Which is a massive improvement over getting out of your car and hoofing it to the nearest business or house and begging to use the phone.
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Nothing about 'modern cars' require that. This is not about 'modern cars', it is about a car RENTAL company which added technology to the cars it RENTS to help them protect their assets.
Assuming cell coverage is 100% is pretty dumb (Score:2)
Even in the best-covered European countries, there are spots without coverage, If your security system relies on being able to phone home all the time, you need to fire the bright engineer who came up with that brilliant idea.,,
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Engineer? The engineer would've headdesked repeatedly, pointed out the issues, and only then implemented it anyway, once the boss said so. Your money down a hole, after all..
I'm voting for the intern in the conference room with a Macbook. That's your suspect!
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You would put a timer in and a warning that you were out of coverage.
Anyway, the tools get fancier but the programmers keep making the same mistakes decade after decade.
Navigation too (Score:2)
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But you are right to point out that newer drivers never get to develop a sense of direction. Part of learning to drive should require finding point B with only a simple list of turn directions and no map. Making wrong turns should be part of the process to help prepare drivers.
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Whatever happened to dead reckoning?
Shit. So, I come from a miltary family, where we learned orienteering as kids in the woods, with and without compasses--and that's big advantage. But how hard is to say, okay, I'm south and west of my desired position this morning, so I'll walk facing the sun, with it about 45 degrees off to my right? If it's night and clear, you've got the Big Dipper up north. If it's whiteout snow, foggy, and raining elephants simultaneously, you might want to consider building shelter
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You do know why it's called "dead reckoning" don't you?
Granted, going the wrong way in a car won't usually kill you, as it did for fighter pilots off an aircraft carrier.
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So, I elided the distinction between seat-of-the-pants navigation, which is really what I described, and dead reckoning. Properly in dead reckoning, you're supposed to keep a list or map of how far you've gone, and at what angle, so you can always work out your position or where to go next. But that's work, and I prefer the in-my-head, seat-of-the-pants version.
Good news and bad news (Score:3)
Then the bad news, in a few years everything will be rented not owned.
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Then the bad news, in a few years everything will be rented not owned.
They will need to pass a lot of new laws in the next few years then.
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Then the bad news, in a few years everything will be rented not owned.
They will need to pass a lot of new laws in the next few years then.
No problem. The congress critters are exempted from the laws they write. They can be either wholly owned by corporations or rented by them. Either way they will write the laws they tell them to write.
Bit of a non-story (Score:3)
The exact same thing would happen with the car share cars in my city. The car uses a cellular connection to validate your key fob and check that you do indeed have the car booked for this block of time. They are very explicit about this and the limitation that the cars need to be kept in cellular range if you want to be able to start them (once validated, you could drive through an area with no cell coverage with no problems).
These cars are generally meant to be used to run errands around the city. The validation system is designed to make the intended use case as easy and straight-forward as possible. If you're adventuring to the great wild outdoors, rent a car from Avis or something.
If there is a story here, it's about poor customer service, not the weak attempt at making it about IoT.
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Sorry, but this is a rented car, not a car-share car, so this *IS* about abusive IoT.
What the actual fuck!? (Score:3)
Re:A rural part of the state... (Score:5, Insightful)
You really, really wouldn't want to break down there.
Heh. City people.
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You really, really wouldn't want to break down there.
Heh. City people.
My great uncle was the road superintendent for a rural, mountainous county (elected, of course-gotta love those small town country governments, everything has to be about politics). My father and I took a ride with him one time through some of the backwoods roads. He actually would keep a gun in his truck because there were moonshiners, drug growers, and other people back there who didn't like any kind of government official.
But back on topic, who the hell thinks it's a good idea to take a prius on back c
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Actually it's just fine (Score:3)
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"Good thing she didnt go to the mojave preserve"
What? I get cell signal out there, 15 miles from the road, in the middle of the Kelso dunes high point, and have for over half a decade. The entire Cady Mountains area pretty much has cell signal, even dead south of Afton Canyon. I did a broadcast from 34.994188N by 116.290524W and kept it going for three hours.
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I think its a reasonable expectation to have that your rental car will function in places where you dont have a cell connection
Re: A rural part of the state... (Score:5, Funny)
Imagine thinking the whole world was pavement and Starbucks.
Re: A rural part of the state... (Score:2)
Dont forget Walgreens. More pharmacies per capita than coffee shops it seems.
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And what happens if I drive through a tunnel? If the car stalls or in the tunnel, I won't be able to restart it? This could easily happen IN TOWN.
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Why would you want your cars stranded in a bad area?
Right now we gotta get both my cars out of this bad area, all right? [getyarn.io]
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That's supposed to be what treble damages are for.