Should International Travelers Leave Their Phones At Home? (freecodecamp.com) 514
Long-time Slashdot reader Toe, The sums up what he learned from freeCodeCamp's Quincy Larson: "Before you travel internationally, wipe your phone or bring/rent/buy a clean one." Larson's article is titled "I'll never bring my phone on an international flight again. Neither should you."
All the security in the world can't save you if someone has physical possession of your phone or laptop, and can intimidate you into giving up your password... Companies like Elcomsoft make 'forensic software' that can suck down all your photos, contacts -- even passwords for your email and social media accounts -- in a matter of minutes.... If we do nothing to resist, pretty soon everyone will have to unlock their phone and hand it over to a customs agent while they're getting their passport swiped... And with this single new procedure, all the hard work that Apple and Google have invested in encrypting the data on your phone -- and fighting for your privacy in court -- will be a completely moot point.
The article warns Americans that their constitutional protections don't apply because "the U.S. border isn't technically the U.S.," calling it "a sort of legal no-man's-land. You have very few rights there." Larson points out this also affects Canadians, but argues that "You can't hand over a device that you don't have."
The article warns Americans that their constitutional protections don't apply because "the U.S. border isn't technically the U.S.," calling it "a sort of legal no-man's-land. You have very few rights there." Larson points out this also affects Canadians, but argues that "You can't hand over a device that you don't have."
Ways around this (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Ways around this (Score:5, Insightful)
Since they don't have the password, you have to trust them a lot less.
Re:Ways around this (Score:5, Insightful)
Simpler way: just don't visit the United States. :)
As a bonus, you will miss all the other airport humiliations: mass-fingerprinting, world's worst security theatre (you want my shoes off?), and risk of arbitrary refusal of entry without right of appeal or even explanation.
If you want a dose of American culture and natural beauty, just go to Canada instead. Niagara Falls looks better from that side anyway
Are there any other countries where this sort of thing goes on?
Re:Ways around this (Score:4, Informative)
Be careful, American border patrol was just given authority to conduct is security theatre in Canadian airports too, courtesy of Joe Trudeau.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Be careful, American border patrol was just given authority to conduct is security theatre in Canadian airports too, courtesy of Joe Trudeau.
Yep. And this is a whole lot scarier than being asked to give up your phone and password. The fact that you can't just say "I've changed my mind" and turn around and walk away on CANADIAN SOIL, is fucking chilling.
Re: Ways around this (Score:2, Informative)
It's only if you're US bound however.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
This has been the case for many years. US Border Control agents clear airline passengers at Pearson Airport before you get to the US departures area gates. (Has nothing to do with Justin Trudeau. )
Re:Ways around this (Score:5, Informative)
The program has been in operation since the 1950s [wikipedia.org]. Absent any disagreement on immigration policies, it is logistically the more efficient way to operate.
Re:Ways around this (Score:5, Informative)
You missed the important detail.
The previous status quo:
If the US border officials didn't want to let you in, they could not detain you and you were free to turn around and walk away.
Now, people can get detained/held on Canadian soil by US border officials without the freedom to leave.
Big difference. Not at all the status quo.
Canada is no better in this respect (Score:2, Informative)
Canada's customs agents also take away phones and read data off of them.
Re:Ways around this (Score:4, Insightful)
Yep. Sorry America, but until you stop acting like an abusive boyfriend, pawing through peoples personal texts, contacts and photos, you are on MY no-fly list.
It's a shame, because America is a beautiful place, and Americans are some of the friendliest people I've met, but your government really needs to grow a pair. Someone once said something profound about trading liberty for security; y'all should really look into that.
Re: (Score:2)
You also have to be careful about the route the airline takes, as even if it passes through US airspace, let alone makes a stopover, you still are subject to US customs inspection.
Re:Ways around this (Score:5, Informative)
let alone makes a stopover, you still are subject to US customs inspection.
Another US peculiarity, which is a major problem for many people daily.
Making it worse, the US considers Canada and Mexico part of the US for visa purposes.
So a 4-month visit to Canada, transiting the US both ways, is considered a 4-month stay in the US and so ineligible for ESTA and needing a full visa with interview just to transit.
Here is some help to avoid US transit:
https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki... [wikivoyage.org]
http://wikitravel.org/en/Avoid... [wikitravel.org]
Re: (Score:2)
Simpler way: just don't visit the United States.
That doesn't help if you are American and want to visit some other countries. At some point you have to come back, and these border search rules apply to citizens and non-citizens alike.
Re:Ways around this (Score:5, Insightful)
Simpler way: just don't visit the United States.
Allow me to present to you a lout and vociferous BULLSHIT! Do you have dremams about killing 'Murricans, because we're so damn evil? Well here you go, and allow me to show the extent of your bullshit. http://www.it-can.ca/2013/02/0... [it-can.ca]
Seems like our friendly neighbors to the north, do indeed and in truth, confiscate peoples cell phones, and they do indeed search them, and they do indeed make uses of those search results, and their courts do indeed consider that as an acceptable practice. They even say that they do. Indeed.
One of the strangest things is that so many people have such a white hot seeting hatred of all things American, that they feel that in their just cause, and in the inherent superiority of all other nations, that they can spew hatred and lies about teh evilz 'Murricans doing what everyone does.
But hey, if you hate us that much for made up and non-factual reasons, feel free to stay away. You might learn that most of us are actually nice people - and that would mess with your preconceptions.
Yeesh, calm down will ya. Just be cause I don't want to visit your country due to the protracted, draconian and at times even humiliating process I'd have to subject myself to in order to get a Visa, that does not mean that I hate Americans. I just don't want some dull witted TSA drone rummaging around my laptop and my cell phone, rifling through my social media account and my private data, possibly even copying my personal data and storing it a DHS/NSA database, etc... The reason I'd rather go to Canada is that the Canadians might search my phone but are pretty unlikely to do so. The TSA/DHS on the other hand seems to be on track to making the act of poking it's nose into every nook and cranny of my personal life standard practice.
Re:Ways around this (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeesh, calm down will ya. Just be cause I don't want to visit your country due to the protracted, draconian and at times even humiliating process I'd have to subject myself to in order to get a Visa, that does not mean that I hate Americans.
This is an important point which is often overlooked in diplomatic relations. When you hear leaders speak, they'll say Russia this, or America that, or Japan this or China that etc, but what they really mean is the current administration, not the country or its people. If I was the boss of my country I'd come out and say we love Americans, the people are great, the countryside is great, it's just the current head of state is a fuckwit with so we choose not to engage for the next 4 years. We look forward to dealing with the American people again whe they choose a competent leader. Regards.
This would prevent this from using it as a wedge to boost patriotic support, because the attack is purely on the person only, and not the country.
Re:Ways around this (Score:5, Interesting)
He has some skills, but the idea that he amassed billions is laughable. He inherited a large amount of money and his investments have not performed as well as the overall market.
And that's based on the best estimate of his wealth. It's quite possible that his wealth is significantly less than he claims. As a concrete example of this, in the disclosures he made as a presidential candidate, he listed some $20M in income from his golf course in Scotland: problem is, it's losing money. The $20M is revenue, not profit.
So, let me throw that back at you and suggest that you are not as smart as you think you are.
Re:Ways around this (Score:4, Insightful)
What, exactly, are the factual mistakes in my post?
Do you dispute that he inherited a large fortune? Do you dispute, perhaps that his father bailed him out? Do you dispute that he claimed revenue rather than profits for his Scottish golf course?
Because all of these things are documented facts. Not "alternative facts", or fake news, but real, actual facts. But then, I should not be surprised that an enthusiastic Trump supporter would have difficulty recognizing facts.
You are simply uninformed. Perhaps you are wilfully blind to facts? Or perhaps, just stupid?
Re: (Score:3)
Being rich, or the president does not and should not make you immune to accountability.
Never said it did. It's time we had a jerk in office though. Doing the right thing is seldom popular. The screaming / crying liberals are driving nail after nail into the coffin of their own regressive movement. Keep it up!
Re:Ways around this (Score:4, Insightful)
Your argument is that he is qualified to be in the White House because he inherited a bunch of money. Essentially, he is in the White House because of an accident of birth: you are arguing for something like a hereditary monarchy if his money qualifies him to be there.
His wealth and possessions are not impressive because he inherited the bulk of his wealth and would be wealthier had he not managed it himself.
Why do you think he refused to disclose his tax returns? We know he didn't pay taxes for a decade, so what worse information is there in his returns? Since image is everything to him, I suspect that his tax returns would show that his wealth is far smaller than he claims.
I suspect that many, many people could be in the same position as him, had they got the same start in life as Trump had.
Yes, and (Score:3)
Plenty of US Blue Shirts champing at the bit to be Il Trumpe's brown shirts. Psychotic high school bullies don't change: they just become cops.
Re:Ways around this (Score:5, Insightful)
Same here. Would want to visit the USA. Should be fantastic. Both the country and people. There are many American scientists and artists that I hold in great esteem.
But as usual in any country, a minority of pedantic idiots try to screw things up. In my impression such wankers are more effective in the USA than in other true constitutional democracies. Coming up with pointless moronic rules (screen data at the airport that could be transferred in other more convenient, secure and untraceable ways), applying zero tolerance and feeling good about themselves for having done "a great job" at defending the country's best interests. And then there are their vassals who by the book and ooze stupidity out of their eyes.
To the majority of Americans that do have sense I'd say that it'd be good if that same majority would convey the idea that America surely wasn't built on FUD but more likely on risk taking, convention challenging, hard working and intellect.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Then why do you make up shit about us? I'm quite calm, I just get tired of the lies that people tell about us. So I just deal a little of your own excitement back to you.
You're a liar. Don't think much of liars. Of course, that allows you the benefit of making up whatever you like. And since there isn't much point in dealing with people who simply make shit up, you can have the last post and declare yourself the winner. But you're still a liar.
Ummm...please point to the exact lie in what was posted.
Have US officials asked for the phone and password of those seeking entry into the US? Yes.
Did the poster claim that no other country does this? No.
Can and do US officials fingerprint visitors to the US? Yes.
Is the TSA enforced security theatre at the airports a joke? Yes, it seems so based on the multitude of internet articles and forum postings over the years.
Can US officials deny entry to the US without explanation? Yes.
Is Canadian culture sim
Re: Ways around this (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Actually, they can, by not visiting and contributing their tourist dollars to the local economy. (Of course, this also makes them no longer a "visitor", but you get the point.)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Why do you feel the need to use so many negative words: bullshit, killing, evil, hatred, hatred, lies, evilz, hate? Could you not have carried your point across with regular, non inflammatory words?
Absolutely, I can wax rather poetic, and have quite a vocabulary.
However, I have to admit that patience is not one of my virtues when presented with complete fabrications and dissembling. While it might seem to some and adequate representation of the state of the US customs system by comparing it with the Canadian system, as it turns out, that is not even remotely correct nor true. It is demonstrable in fact that a person who enters Canada can be detained in order to have the contents of their phone sear
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Depending on how long you're staying, you could send your phone via courier to meet you at your destination. Of course, then you have to trust the courier company and the customs agents handling the package.
You can't. If you have anything on your phone that you don't want getting out, you need to leave the phone at home and get a burner. And that rule applies to all countries in the world, not just the US because hate.
Danger do not try to Spy (Score:2)
Someone should build a phone which blows up if someone tries to tamper with it.
Wait Samsung already built one.
Someone should just build a case for phones which makes them look like a Note 7.
No CBP agent will try to read it.
Re: (Score:3)
Depending on how long you're staying, you could send your phone via courier to meet you at your destination. Of course, then you have to trust the courier company and the customs agents handling the package.
Depends on whether I'm travelling on a vacation to a place where I'm not likely to regularly communicate w/ anyone (like say, a few weeks visit to Tahiti) vs visiting friends abroad, where I would be. Either case would be different.
In the first case, I would take a blank phone, and at the country that I'm visiting, maybe rent a SIM card for the duration of the stay. Keep it w/ me, and return it when I leave. Use it only for local calls (like to the hotel or anyone I have to call while I'm there. When
Re: Ways around this (Score:4, Interesting)
There should be a way to do this and just move all the data to a microSD card. Then you can bring the card with you and transfer the data back later.
The microSD card, since it's so incredibly small, would be very easy to hide somewhere, like your wallet.
Re: Ways around this (Score:5, Interesting)
Instead, get a phone with vendor supplied sdcard backdoor (there's plenty of those, just look for root tutorials of your favorite vendors). For example huawei ones look for dload/update.app [github.com], This is made of kernel and squashfs image. You can just rip those from internal ROM, except modify the sdcard version
I did this mainly because the sdcard image is rooted and heavily customized, while the internal rom is the original vendors (to not void warranty). But as a side effect, this way you get perfect plausible deniability. Without the sdcard, the phone is pretty much stock, with no indication that entirely different world exist on some card that isn't there.
Attack Software (Score:5, Interesting)
So what happens when travelers start carrying attack hardware & software that bites back. Imagine that the border agent sticks your phone into his reader and along with your data your phone injects a virus into his system. This can be done at very low levels. Or your 'phone' might simply send out 200,000 volts of power through the connection frying boarder patrol's expensive equipment.
Sounds like a good plot for a thriller spy movie...
And it's all possible.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Except that you'd probably be arrested for "damaging government equipment" or, more likely since it's related to national security, terrorism.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
You don't have to be the one carrying the malware, you inject it on someone's phone while their sitting around on the public unsecured wifi on the airport.
They can't trace it back to you, and you get a free piggyback into the government network which someone else will take the fall for? Fantastic! That's the problem with these sorts of techniques, the people who can actually do damage are simply enabled by the incompetent policies put in place by people who don't understand the technology.
Really if anyone n
Really bad odds (Score:2)
The attempt to harm government equipment is stupid on many levels, but right out of the gate it's stupid because the odds are extremely low of your phone even being looked at. I've never had the border agents even ask to see my computer, much less my phone. The odds are very slim they ever will so you'd be going to a lot of trouble just for nothing to happen.
Re: (Score:3)
As is the lengthy prison term you'll be serving for obstruction of justice, one count for each person delayed by the damaged equipment.
Re: (Score:3)
Years ago I remember reading ab anti-forensics where they talked about carefully modifying the FAT on your HDD so that it would work normally with Windows (probably XP) but when scanned with a popular forensics package would make it crash. No permanent harm done, the trained monkey operator just assumes (correctly) that the forensics software is buggy and the barrier to invading your privacy is raised.
Re: (Score:2)
1) The volt is not a measure of power.
2) You're not getting 200KV out of a cellphone battery.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
If you want to be a pedant learn some knowledge.
1) Voltage isn't a measure of power, but it is a measure of ESD tolerance.
2) You can get any voltage you want out of a cell phone battery. The only question is how many amps at that voltage.
Re: (Score:2)
Soft rubberduckie?
Is it even possible for a phone to tell USB that it's a keyboard?
Yes. I've done essentially that. (Score:3)
Yep, the USB device (aka gadget) tells the USB host (computer) what kind of device it is. Newer phones equipped with USB OTG have the hardware to work as either end of the connection.
Some chips used in common USB memory sticks can be programmed to act as a keyboard, sending keypresses to the computer when someone plugs in the "flash drive". I built one of those myself, using a usb flash drive with my company's logo on it. If I were to leave that drive laying around the office, one of my co-workers would
Re: (Score:2)
So what happens when travelers start carrying attack hardware & software that bites back.
They'll fuck you back harder.
Dumb ass question. (Score:2)
So what happens when travelers start carrying attack hardware & software that bites back?
The border guard bites back harder. So unless you are fond of cavity searches and border town lockups, I suggest you reconsider your options.
Re: (Score:2)
Or your 'phone' might simply send out 200,000 volts of power through the connection frying boarder patrol's expensive equipment.
Sounds like a good plot for a thriller spy movie...
And it's all possible.
And all easily preventable. Or do you think the smart people that create such machines haven't thought about that?
IIRC, you don't have to give them the password (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
That's what the law says.
Now, do you want to bet the guy trying to search your phone knows, or admits knowing, the law?
Re:IIRC, you don't have to give them the password (Score:5, Informative)
You can't be compelled to give your password, you can however be denied permission to travel if you withhold it.
Re: (Score:2)
Returning to the USA a person cannot start lying, or block that discovery.
Congress and courts in the US are very clear on what can be asked, searched for and how a person is then moved into the court system.
i.e. a person does not get to enter the USA with anything illegal just by having a US passport and demanding a court needs to approve a bag search.
The b
Re: (Score:2)
Most nation have seen all that legal effort by citizens. Most nations ensure everything can be searched, questions asked. Images can be looked at, recovered. Bags searched, devices accessed.
Any expected questioned asked to anyone entering that are blocked, refused is lying. No protection is granted to lie.
If a person is not a citizen, they don't get cove
Well, (Score:5, Insightful)
reacting to these egregious violations of privacy by leaving your smartphone at home, or simply not having one, seems somehow inadequate. The fascists will simply keep pushing and pushing, gradually closing the net around you as they have ever since the passage of the (un)PATRIOT Act. In an actual free and open society, stealing, er excuse me "confiscating" someone's property and then demanding the victim give up their password would be illegal, and the very idea that the 4th Amendment to the United States Constitution shouldn't apply just because you are near the national border would be laughable. But we're not a free country, are we? No, not for a long time now.
Need more layers of encryption (Score:2, Interesting)
You must give border agents a key that will unlock your phone, but what if your phone had multiple levels of unlock? One key unlocks it to show a minimal contact list, texts and phone call histories of only select contacts and web history of only whitelisted sites. Sign in with a different key and suddenly your full history is available. If the filesystem is encrypted who is to know you haven't done a full unlock for the border goons.
Re: (Score:2)
Once found? Decrypt or lie?
If your not a US citizen the options are clear.
If you are a US citizen, expect parallel construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] if no questions got asked.
No Different From Laptops (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Good thing terrorists will never think to do that.
Yes, and it's great that all law abiding citizens do follow the lengthy procedures outlined by GP.
IMO, if you don't uphold civil rights where every you go, whether it's the border to Canada or a cave in Afghanistan then you probably don't care about civil rights to being this. The US has consistently proven that civil rights aren't important.
Re: (Score:2)
This is no different from the drill for laptops. On your travel day, back up your phone, encrypt the backup, send through your by vpn to a server stateside, reset the phone to factory defaults. Download the backup when safely stateside.
As soon as the customs officer sees your phone is set to factory defaults, he's going to want you to log into your accounts. That's no different from providing the password for your device.
Re: (Score:2)
As soon as the customs officer sees your phone is set to factory defaults, he's going to want you to log into your accounts. That's no different from providing the password for your device.
What accounts?
I have about 10 different accounts already that I use for different purposes, configuring a reset phone with one that has no useful info in it is straight forward.
"[I]f we do nothing to resist" (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not sure that leaving your phone at home counts as "resistance" - it sounds more like surrendering.
Re:"[I]f we do nothing to resist" (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't work, don't carry (Score:2)
If you are taking a trip to somewhere your phone requires roaming charges you should not take your phone with you.
Re: (Score:2)
If you are taking a trip to somewhere your phone requires roaming charges you should not take your phone with you.
Indeed. In fact, a good thing to do is simply get to where you're going and buy a "burner phone". You can dump it if you choose, or keep it and hand it over to the Brown Shirts when you re-enter the US...
The obvious response (Score:2)
And we'll see it soon, is to have a separate password that resets the phone to a factory configuration.
Or, even better yet, multi-user phones. Keep one user account vanilla clean, and let them have fun.
I predict we will see one or the other this year.
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I guess computers doing it for decades and phones basically being all-in-one computers wasn't enough to make this too obvious to patent
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The same with any camera card or laptop.
Security (Score:2, Insightful)
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I don't understand why people put secure things on their phone. Use a laptop instead and leave that at home, then there's no problem. You can even access it remotely if you want.
It's not just "secure things". Your contacts list and call history can tell heaps about you all by itself. Social media accounts (I know, no one here has them but lots of people in the real world do), photographs (which are conveniently geo-tagged), hell even your taste in music (have a stray ICP track in your music collection? Woops, you're a gang member and can be treated as such!) .
Smart phones have a high concentration of information about us that, individually may seem innocuous but when looked at o
constitutional protections don't apply (Score:3)
> You have very few rights there
This does apply to them searching your phone, you have no choice. But it doesn't really apply to US citizens on giving up your password, if you have some time to spare that is. They cannot deny a citizen entry without cause, they can deny them their possessions or hold them for a "reasonable time." So eventually they have to allow citizens out of the constitution free zone, and into the US. Although they may be able to force you to give a fingerprint.
Of course this only applies to US citizens and US customs. Other countries are under no such consideration. But I am not sure many have any protections from search anywhere.
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They cannot deny a citizen entry without cause, they can deny them their possessions or hold them for a "reasonable time."
Unfortunately, few people can afford to test these rules -- as having your possessions and not "being held for a reasonable time" may be integral to keeping your job.
Alternate Account (Score:2)
Just have a second (if iPhone) iCloud account set up with reasonable amount of apps and mail (subscribe to some mailing lists.)
Before travelling, backup, then restore your alternate clean identity.
After travelling, restore the correct one.
Reset Chromebook and Phone (Score:3)
I've been thinking about this since the recent article where a NASA JPL US citizen employee was detained and forced to give up his password.
I have a Chromebook. It's easy to wipe it completely to fresh out of the box factory settings. At the border, you can give them a completely blank computer. (or set up a dummy Chromebook account with nothing on it). Then when you are back safely in the US, just enter your credentials and it will download everything from the cloud and you're back in business.
Phones are a little more difficult. You can factory reset these but your SIM card still has data. You'd need to install a decoy SIM card in it (preferably a burner SIM from some odd place where it won't work in the US). You'll have to deal with your own SIM card by hiding it or mailing it to yourself. Once you reinstall your original SIM and login, the phone apps, etc. will restore themselves.
Either that or just buy a burner phone and ditch it before you return.
Stay away. (Score:5, Insightful)
The best answer is always ECONOMIC. Stay away from the USA and travel elsewhere. If they notice a huge decline in tourism and the associated revenue they will be forced to rethink TRUMP and his policies.
Re:Stay away. (Score:5, Insightful)
The best answer is always ECONOMIC. Stay away from the USA and travel elsewhere. If they notice a huge decline in tourism and the associated revenue they will be forced to rethink TRUMP and his policies.
Already doing this. We planned a trip there a couple of years ago but decided the authoritarian entry requirements were not something I can support with a conscience. So we went to Europe and spent our money there instead. I have friends planning a trip to the US later this year and invited us but declined for the same reasons. We're going to Indonesia instead, where despite having an autocratic pro-Muslim government, it is still more open than the US.
Worth noting this isn't a Trump thing. It started with Bush, and was continued by Obama and now Trump too.
Re:Stay away. (Score:5, Interesting)
yep !
I even used to live there as a student.
I'm not planning to come back any time soon now.
Why bother with all the hassle ?
Anything (Score:2)
This has been true for years, is nothing new, and surprised that people don't know that.
Location locks (Score:2)
I'm thinking of locking systems that block access when at the border and can only be unlocked when in a civilised country or the USA :) (sorry, couldn't resist)
Not sure if GPS is accurate enough for that though
Operation Quicksilver needed. (Score:2)
We should kickstart some crowd funding to create a mod for android that recognizes a Quicksilver password. Once the quicksilver password is entered, the phone would unlock, but log in you with
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
simple (Score:2)
Take old phone, factory reset it. go through customs, find free wifi. reload phone....
The shit is getting easier and easier.
The next step is they'll hold you up, require your google or dropbox password...
We live in interesting times. until the "world" catches up to tech. Don't know which way things are going... 1984? Johnny Mnemonic? Blade Runner?
Not having a phone is not normal (Score:2, Interesting)
It powers on, has a list of apps. It can be called. So any security questions about devices will fit in with what is expected of most people in 2017.
A laptop should be new. Only have productivity apps.
A camera should have a new card/s in it. Do not use the card. Any images on it will be looked at. Any camera deleted images can and will be recovered.
For any paperwork use your wo
Activate a throwaway or old phone (Score:2)
Encrypt the whole thing... then encrypt documents with a secondary form of encryption on the phone... Fill the documents with F-U gubment. Laugh when they say they need to take it at the border and refuse to give them the unlock codes. They'll take your phone and waste time to decrypt documents that simply tell them where to shove it. Hehehehehehe
Yes, this is now a concert when visting the US (Score:2)
I can't believe we got this far. What are you guys doing to your country? Leaving your cellphone home used to be a consideration when visiting places like North Korea.
Worse than North Korea (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Hyperbole stew (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, and no.
The US military (which includes everything from SEAL Team 6 down to your local police officer it seems now) has a concept of "developed capacity is intent to use it." Yes, using this thought process means that since every woman has a vagina, then she has the intent to become a prostitute, which is absurd on it's face.
That's kind of the point here.
If TSA/ICE/some random cop on the beat has the capacity to slurp your phone, then obviously, while the intent might not be there, they certinaly could if they had the slightest reason do to so. Such actions as looking at them. Not looking at them. Appearing nervous. Appearing calm. Being dressed too well. Being dressed poorly. Being dressed differently. Not being dressed differently. Speeding. Not speeding. Going slower than the speed limit. Using a highway. Using back roads.
These are all excuses used in court to preform a "reasonable suspicion" search, including one officer in Georgia that used all of these excuses in a single month. (I'll add there wasn't a single conviction in the bunch, only complaints of rights violations where were dismissed.)
The point is that "over the top" applies not to just viewing with alarm the possibility of police abuse, it's been proven to happen. Frequently. Most often with absolutely no consequence to the officer, department, or state actor involved.
I forget where, but it's been said "If you don't give weight to your principals, then the first wind will carry them off." And I absolutely disagree that constitutional protections "don't apply" to the boarder. Yes, I'm aware that's how courts have ruled, but I am not saying it isn't treated like that, I'm saying it is a break with the honor of our laws to do so. Further, nothing in the constitution or the bill of rights denies civil rights other than voting or holding certain public offices to non-citizens, and it doesn't say "while in the territory of the US". These rights should apply in downtown USA the same as they apply where ever the United States holds defacto jurisprudence, even if it's not our country. In other words, no more "black sites" and "rendition" allowed.
We have been told over and over again that "They hate us for our freedoms", but I don't see that we have many freedoms we can be proud of any more, let alone ones others would envy. Indeed, I think we've done much more damage to ourselves with our "security" stance than the terrorists have done.
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As I said in the part of my post you didn't quote, "[t]his topic is definitely something we need to vigorously discuss." I actually agree with pretty much everything you said.
But that has nothing to do with my original point (clearly missed by reflexive mods) that spewing rhetorical nonsense like Larson is doing is unnecessary and counterproductive to a thoughtful, rational discussion about the subject.
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I apologize if I seem to have ignored that point. I will say that there might - possibly - be a slippery slope there. As an example, every totalitarian feels that a free and responsible press is desirable - as long as they get to define what is "responsible", and can remove the "free" from those that are "irresponsible".
But your point is well taken: Hyperbole, hyste
Re:Hyperbole stew (Score:5, Insightful)
Funny, I've always thought that "they hate us for our freedoms" was a joke, and understood as such by everyone. Are you telling me people seriously mean it when they say that? And that other people believe it? Because I always thought they hate you for destroying their countries and ruining their lives, and not so much about what you do when you are at home...
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I agree with this completely. As a Finn I've often been pondering recently what I'd do if the time comes to visit the US for business reasons or otherwise and this idea of just getting brand new device to bring along has been in my thoughts. However, in the context of your quote it has one massive setback: it's yielding to the system by saying 'fine, I agree that you can search everything
Re:Hyperbole stew (Score:5, Informative)
The fourth amendment reads:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
There's some wiggle room in there, but the intent seems clear. Searches should be limited to those accused of a crime, and must be authorized by a judge/magistrate that there is probable cause.
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I believe I pointed out that one need not be a citizen to have civil rights. A point you seem to be ignoring? I will presume it is unintentional.
you have not lost one single of your rights as spelled out in the Bill of Rights or the US Constitution. Not a single one.
Incorrect. I have lost many rights. The right to be secure in my person and effects is routinely violated whenever a law enforcement officer searches my car (happens about 5 times a year - I live near a prison and they someti
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so if it only happens to 1 in a 1000 people it's ok?
Yes, dear AC, if it happens due to some level of reasonable suspicion. I take it you would prefer a system where CBP has no authority to search anything under any circumstances? Hopefully you don't actually live in the U.S. and thus benefit from its protections as you sit in the comfort of your own home (ok, ok, or your parent's basement) and crank out ignorant anonymous posts.
Mod me down again, anarchists.
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Could this get someone in trouble
Yes. Something along the lines of lying to a federal official.
Why not carry two phones? When they ask if you have a phone, say "Yes." When they ask to see it, hand it to them.
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That's not the constitution, but the exception for the border isn't the constitution either. I could see an argument in favor of it if they left it up to the states, but when they make it federal they blow it. And the constitution certainly never said that anything within 200 miles of the border, or other access point (international airport, e.g.) was a part of the border, but that's what the feds have been claiming for decades. Without any right to do so, but with the power to make it pretty much stick.
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Well to be fair orange dingus as you call him (emperor Trumpatine - because he used a phantom menace to get elected - as other people call him) is really quite the narcissistic, sociopathic, demagogue, racist, xenophobic, misogynistic, troll. Since he called that federal judge who upheld the constitution a "So called judge" it has made it open season on #SoCalledPresident.
While all that may be true, unless he's also a timelord (please god tell me he isn't!) this isn't something we can lay completely at his feet.
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The issue is, that's not my call. I'm a professional, I travel to the US on business. In doing so, I bring data that is not mine with me. Corporate emails, credentials that could cause a CNN moment if mishandled, etc.
Those data are stored under cryptographic control, using two factor authentication. It is not mine to decide if it's acceptable to hand it over to anyone.
So now I need to take further steps to ensure I have access to the data required when I travel internationally to my corporate HQ, which
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Hotel staff help look for any devices in a hotel room, wireless or physical access is attempted.
Most security would suggest entering another nation with a totally clean phone ready for that nations telco services.
Any VPN use, cloud or other long term per device settings are what any nations security services are looking for.
Re entering the US and having that device scanned will s
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The border agents ask a bunch of questions, most of which are completely content-irrelevant. Last time I came back into the US from Canada, the guy asked me where I lived and worked. C'mon, dude, I drove past something like ten cameras to get into this booth. If you don't have a Google Street View of my house (and, for that matter, my workplace - AFAICT I am the only
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Such questions will flow on with car rental services, helpful airline staff after a flight, taxi, local hotel staff, currency, technology shops once just in the USA.
A lot of that is now online, digital, but if