Steve Wozniak Says Apple Must Fix iPhone 7 Bluetooth Or Revive Its Headphone Jack (afr.com) 385
We've talked extensively about the missing headphone jack on the upcoming iPhone. While some say that the move will ruin user experience -- something that has already started to seem that way in the real world -- a few argue that someone needs to push the needle to move the technology forward. Now Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak has something to say about the missing legacy audio jack as well. He is asking Apple to fix the Bluetooth first if the company intends to give users to move to wireless headphones. From a Financial Review report: Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak has warned Apple is going to frustrate a lot of customers if it removes the headphone jack from the upcoming iPhone 7. [...] Customers wanting to use their existing, wired earbuds and headphones might have to buy an adaptor that attaches to the iPhone's Lightning port, or to whatever port does remain on the phone. "If it's missing the 3.5mm earphone jack, that's going to tick off a lot of people," Mr Wozniak told The Australian Financial Review. "I would not use Bluetooth ... I don't like wireless. I have cars where you can plug in the music, or go through Bluetooth, and Bluetooth just sounds so flat for the same music." Mr Wozniak said he would probably use the adaptor to connect his existing earphones to his next iPhone, and said that, like many other users he is attached to the accessories that he uses alongside the phone. "Mine have custom ear implants, they fit in so comfortably, I can sleep on them and everything. And they only come out with one kind of jack, so ''ll have to go through the adaptor," he said. "If there's a Bluetooth 2 that has higher bandwidth and better quality, that sounds like real music, I would use it. But we'll see. Apple is good at moving towards the future, and I like to follow that."
Here's the problem with stereo Bluetooth: (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Here's the problem with stereo Bluetooth: (Score:4, Interesting)
Sounds to me like you where using a crappy adaptor. I've been using several midrange audio head phones, and some high end head phones for several years over blue tooth 2.1+ and I've never seen any kind of issues like that. I've used everything from low end mp3 to high end aac, even flac and they all sound fine based on the hiead phone I'm using.
I image you have a cheap adaptor or your mp3 encoding sucks.
Re:Here's the problem with stereo Bluetooth: (Score:5, Informative)
To add details to your answer : first point, look at your source : is it FLAC or MP3 (or any equivalent). If the source is bad, it cannot be better at the other end.
AFAIK, Bluetooth uses an A2DP pipe and this pipe allows the transmission of data using 4 codecs :
- SBC : the first historically, the worst in quality
- AAC
- MP3
- aptX
SBC, AAC and MP3 are lossy codecs. I never saw a product that accept AAC or MP3. There must be a license to pay to use MP3; may be also for AAC. ...) are aptX ready.
aptX is both lossy and lossless. And most source devices (smartphones, computers
So, the technology already here to allow a much better quality than what we know (as long as one can force the use of the lossless variant of aptX, which is ... well, you know ... Obfuscated to say the least).
Then what ?
Then CSR : the dominating Bluetooth chips manufacturer. More than 70% of the chips last time I heard.
CSR has patents on aptX.
And patents are meant to make money (yes; were you told otherwise ?).
So, the sink devices (BT speakers, car audio systems, ...) are aptX ready only if the manufacturer paid CSR. I'm not sure, may be $1 per product. That's a lot compared to the rest of the BOM. A BT speaker you pay $150 cost less than half when leaving the Chinese factory.
And guess what : manufacturers like profit, so they don't pay CSR for aptX and stick to SBC.
The hardware is always ready, the firmware may contain the aptX codec, but if the license key, linked to the BT MAC address of the chip, is not present in the firmware, aptX won't be negotiated as an available codec with the source device. Only SBC will be used, even if your source device can do aptX.
By the way, if you like your music, listen to it on real speakers in your living room !
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Tons of headsets support mp3 over A2DP, but few sources do. It was intended to enable low-power operation by streaming the mp3 content directly from source to sink without transcoding. This seems perfectly sensible to somebody making a media player, but for smartphones it means you have to come up with something else to do with your UI tones and notifications and whatnot (because you can't mix them into the mp3 stream without decoding and re-encoding, defeating the purpose of mp3 passthrough).
For the same
Re:Here's the problem with stereo Bluetooth: (Score:5, Funny)
It's means "it is".
It's been nice proving you wrong.
Isn't the aux already analog? Also, levels vs DAC (Score:5, Informative)
> The internal DAC on the prius seems like it works well for CDs and BT, but not on it's auxillary inputs. Thoughts?
The AUX as in the 3.5mm jack that connects to your (analog) headphone jack? THIS headphone jack?:
> It doesn't seem to have that great of a headphone DAC as it sounds mediocre on everything I plug it into.
If you're plugging from a regular headphone jack, the DAC in the car shouldn't be involved - it is already analog.
As for the "bad DAC", trying turning the volume down considerably on the source and compensating by turning it up on the amp. Any modern DAC should have distortion below the threshold humans can detect in music. HOWEVER, the tiny amp for the headphones or the input it is plugged into could very well be overdriven. Turning down the volume on the source may very well fix your problem.
Here's what happens, when things are right and when they're wrong. When levels are right:
DAC sends 0.14 volts to headphone amp.
Volume is set at 5, so:
Headphone amp multiplies by 5 and sends 0.7V to car input.
(Car input sees near maximum loudness, line-level car input maxes out at 0.77 volts).
Car amp multiplies by 20 and sends 14 volts to speakers.
How things go wrong:
DAC sends 0.14 volts to headphone amp.
Volume is set at 10, so:
Headphone amp multiplies by 10 and tries to send 1.4 to car input.
Headphone amp can only manage 1volt, so the tops of the waves get cut off.
Car input gets 1V, but sinces it maxes out at 0.77V, it chops even more off the top of the wave.
Car amp multiplies by 20 and sends 15 volts to speakers, but not as a smooth wave, the tops are chopped of square.
Speakers try to move in smooth motion, not chopped, distorting the sound even more.
Having the level TOO low on the source creates a different problem.
Suppose there is 0.05V of noise in the source and the wire.
Source outputs 0.2V of music.
Car set to amplify by 40 (to compensate for low source level) also amplifies the noise by 40X.
2V of noise goes to speakers, along with 8V of music.
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Yeah, that's REALLY "moving toward the future".
Woz knows best (Score:5, Funny)
"If there's a Bluetooth 2 that has higher bandwidth and better quality..."
- Steve Wozniak, Bluetooth expert
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He was misquoted. He was saying they needed a "Bluetooth II" which is all different because of the Roman numerals.
Re:Woz knows best (Score:5, Funny)
He was misquoted. He was saying they needed a "Bluetooth II" which is all different because of the Roman numerals.
Oh, such a young one. The proper why to write that is "Bluetooth ][".
Re:Woz knows best (Score:5, Funny)
Bluetooth ][gs would offer the best graphics and sound experience.
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But Bluetooth 1000 would have even better graphics and sound.
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Blu][utH
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But in a heavily-stylized font such that the u is symmetrical, the l and t are nearly identical, and the B and H are very similar as well.
Then you can do it up so the second half is angled off of the first a bit, such that one half appears to be a reflection of the other half.
Make the left half of the logo one color and the right half another color. We'll probably go with a dark or grey-blue on the left, and then a desaturated version on the right. For plaintext use we'll prescribe black for the left half
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The iPhone 5 was the very first Bluetooth 4/BLE phone on the market...
Re: Woz knows best (Score:2)
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Thin end of the wedge (Score:5, Insightful)
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get everyone using them and don't worry about audio quality, just overcook the bass.
An idea brought to you by the same company that now owns "Beats"
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Step three - introduce DRM on the phone and ensure that only DRM protected audio can be played across the connection
Step 3 fails on a logical and physical basis.
Logical: This step would be brought to you by the company that removed DRM from their store, and the company who have repeatedly given the middle finger to the RIAA.
Physical: HDCP relied on one very important feature, the inability to capture the analogue stream. The final stream displayed to the eyes is a tad over 2.07 million individual analogue reproductions which we are unable to capture accurately all at the same time. For audio the final stream is made up o
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Windows 10 is a mess, you should consider moving to Linux instead.
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Re: Jobs is dead (Score:5, Funny)
Best mini-thread I've read in a while.
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FreeBSD is a mess, you should consider moving to macOS inst.... d'oh!
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Fix it? lol (Score:5, Insightful)
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https://www.kickstarter.com/pr... [kickstarter.com]
They don't plug into your phone, but they do plug into yet another battery, that can be charged while you're running on the built in batteries.
Fix Apple (Score:2)
Apple will do no fixes of anything until it learns its lesson with very bad iPhone 7 sales because of the removal of the 3.5mm audio jack. Apple are no longer trend setting, they are losing sales to Far East Android phones giving people mostly what they want in a phone shows.
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It did happen with the iPod shuffle. The 3rd generation model was a failure, that's why the 4th generation looks like the 2nd one.
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What would be worse for Apple would be if they don't lose sales, because there's definitely a non-negligible percentage of their customers who will be negatively impacted significantly by removal of the headphone jack, and if those folks buy the phone anyway, then they're going to end up with a bad impression of Apple products, and Apple will lose them as customers. In t
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Far East Android phones can be just as expensive as iToys. The real problem is that you get used to the openness of Far East Android phones and can longer put up with the nonsense that Apple subjects you to.
Salesmen at carrier phone stores even put it this way.
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Please, Please, Don't Buy It (Score:5, Insightful)
Come on people, you don't have to validate the RIAA's meddling in our phones.
i'd like a water proof phone (Score:4, Interesting)
I for one would like an iPhone that's totally wa ter proof
headphone jack: bluetooth
lightning port : inductive charging
would be completely water proof with no external buttons -- how is that a bad thing exactly?
Re: i'd like a water proof phone (Score:5, Informative)
Sony has made numerous waterproof phones with exposed headphone Jacks. Removing it is not a requirement.
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You do realise both a speaker and a microphone rely on a coil connected to a membrane right? In phones those membranes are already plastic. Oh and underwater speakers and microphones exist, as do waterproof mobile phones.
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Samsung S7: IP68 with metal construction, no port covers and includes a headphone jack. It's not that hard, Apple just doesn't care to make one.
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What do the jacks have to do with something being water proof? There's countless water proof devices on the market with jacks and ports. The reason your iPhone isn't waterproof has nothing to do with the jacks.
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Not the thin ones they use in phones. But still, it's a solvable problem. It has been solved many times by many companies. Basically, waterproofing is nothing more than an excuse.
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Not the thin ones they use in phones
Lil' Wayne disagrees [youtube.com].
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I for one would like an iPhone that's totally wa ter proof headphone jack: bluetooth lightning port : inductive charging
would be completely water proof with no external buttons -- how is that a bad thing exactly?
Because a lot of people dont want to keep getting adapters to make things work. Personally I prefer having the option to use BT or wired headphones. Yes, keeping it waterproof would be nice. But I would prefer to have the 3.5 headphone jack.
Quite so. I have yet to drop any cell phone in the water, or to want to make a phone call while swimming. But I use the 3.5 mm constantly, every day.
Nobody is demanding Apple drop the headphone jack, and almost nobody is demanding a thinner phone (look at the cases people use that make it fatter).
I predict that with iPhone sales down, this will NOT goose a new surge in buying, and that the jack will back e'er long.
I'm out (Score:3, Interesting)
I've given many thousands of dollars to Apple over the years. If they get rid of the headphone jack then I am out of the Apple Camp for good. This is the first real evidence I have seen that Apple is really not the same without Jobs. Removing the headphone jack is so god damn stupid I can't believe they will actually do it. There isn't a reality distortion field to save this one.
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Sadly, I agree. I will not upgrade to an iPhone 7 if they do this. The amount of times I use my headphone jack is insane; it's a core feature of the product for me.
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The first evidence was soldered RAM in their desktop computers. Doing that for a really thin laptop makes some sense but doing it for a desktop computer is just to piss off users.
There is no "removing" of anything... (Score:5, Insightful)
...they're just rumoured to be shipping the phone without one.
That's not removing. Nobody is having their existing phone amputated. The SE and 6S series will still ship after the release of the new phone, and they have headphone jacks. The existing, shipped devices have their headphone jacks.
If the new phone doesn't have a headphone jack, it'll be all over the Internet. There will be almost no way to avoid knowing that the iPhone 7 doesn't have a headphone jack.
Any "frustration" felt by users who then go and bye one, *knowing* that it doesn't have a headphone jack, *seeing* in the store that it doesn't have a headphone jack, having an Apple employing trying to up-sell them Bluetooth headphones after *telling* them it doesn't have a headphone jack... well, I have a suggestion for where they can plug their existing headphones.
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bye
buy
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employing
employee
Doing well today.
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You are forgetting Joe Average User whose phone carrier tells them they're eligible for an upgrade to the latest new shiny, who eagerly accepts the latest new shiny without asking questions and then finds that the latest new shiny is missing an essential feature that the old shiny had always had and that Mr. Average User here would never have conceived their new improved shiny might possibly lack.
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To be "eligible for an upgrade" you need a contract. Contracts have cooling-off periods and warrantees, so the phone can be exchanged.
Even if this wasn't so, all consumers in the UK have a 16-day refund/replacement guarantee mandated by the government (just looked it up -- it's actually 30 days since The Consumer Rights Act was amended in 2015).
Perhaps there something similar where you are?
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Because it's not like Apple has a history of dropping standards they feel are behind the times before everyone else. Nope. Dropping a connector would be totally uncharacteristic of them. There's no precedent for that at all.
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In fairness, the Apple's popularity has exploded since the days when they could change/drop interfaces without Mr. Average User really noticing.
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You don't think all this will have died down "within the next few years"? You don't think the market will be flooded with whatever the alternative will be?
Tech-years are shorter than dog-years, and Apple support [iossupportmatrix.com] their old pups longer than any of the other kennels.
Re:There is no "removing" of anything... (Score:4, Interesting)
That's not where the user impact comes in. Most people don't use headphones constantly. They use them occasionally. And they will think to themselves, "That's not a big deal." Then, at some point in the distant future:
And so on. And suddenly, what seemed like it didn't matter suddenly matters, and you have a pissed off customer.
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I don't disagree. Perhaps a few of us will indeed go through the whole "can I put that on a flopp... oh shit, nevermind" process again.
Pioneers and trailblazers all of them.
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New Technologies... (Score:2)
I don't mind new technologies. Improving Bluetooth audio, improving the Bluetooth standard to support better audio. That's all fine, and may lead to the improvement of audio in the future.
However, the technology of the headphone jack is so simple, so universal, so useful- I feel like removing the headphone jack seems a silly move. I'd rather a slightly thicker phone than no headphone jack.
Now... with that said, I don't actually remember the last time I used a headphone jack on my phone anyway. I think f
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I use it any time I am doing something noisy with the phone and I am not alone. I prefer not to bother people and I prefer for background noise to interfere with what I am doing.
Manners and pragmatism must be out of style these days.
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In the past few days: On a bus. In a waiting room at the auto repair shop. Lunch at a burger place. On a bridge call where I needed my hands free to type and did not want to use the speaker phone as I was in a public spot. (The joys of oncall).
That ignores the times I use it on airplanes, waiting rooms, or any of a hundred places where I am killing time in a public place.
Seriously, do a walk-thru of an airport sometime. Nothing but headphones all over the place.
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Bluetooth no thanks. (Score:5, Insightful)
Noticeably crappier sound quality, plus yet another device that needs charging and can fail before my phone battery does, and is more expensinve, for what benefit? The lack of a cable that never bothered me anyway? I just dont get it.
No issue with copy protection (Score:2)
I am sort-of in the camp of "leave the audio jack alone", but either way - don't see any issue with copy protection. Ok, so there is DRM on the data and on the radio (Bluetooth or whatever) link to the external headphone/speaker/whatever. But that external device still has to play analog over the air sound for human analog ears? So, perhaps with exception of more loss of quality due to sub-par compression, we still have the same "analog gap" and the same ability to record/save/backup/whatever?
Am I missing a
why (Score:5, Interesting)
An alternative.... (Score:3)
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Plus, when your headphone cord breaks off in the Lightning port, you'll still be able to charge the phone... until you break a second headphone cord, anyway.
Let me show you to your prison cell.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Let me show you to your prison cell.... (Score:4, Insightful)
We could even argue about what forward means in the first place. Removing something that has worked fine for decades and is still in use today doesn't seem like progress to me.
More important question (Score:2)
Anyone else suddenly wondering what type of music Woz listens to?
There is a better Bluetooth audio option now: AptX (Score:4, Informative)
Abstaining with your wallet (Score:2, Interesting)
Anyone else spot the problem here? "His next iPhone." The guy has already made up his mind, independent of whether it's good or bad. This is the economic equivalent of someone who votes party line.
He doesn't give a single fuck, so there is no reason Apple (or anyone else) should listen to him. He has a
I plug my phone in in the car too (Score:2)
...And it goes through the lightning port. I bought a third party adaptor that fits in behind the standard stereo (in a 2006 VW!) and while I actually have to have two adaptors (iPhone 3G to iPhone 4--something changed in the 30-pin layout or something, and then a standard 30-pin to lightning adaptor on top of that) I can still control my phone from the steering wheel. The sound quality is, of course, very good.
When I borrowed my friend's car, I used my USB/Lightning cable to plug into her Sony deck. That w
Re:This is the same guy (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is the same guy (Score:5, Informative)
Doesn't mean he isn't right.
Maybe, but he should do some research on Bluetooth before making recommendations. It appears that Bluetooth 5.0 may provide support for higher quality audio.
From Wiki: Bluetooth 5 was announced in June 2016. It will quadruple the range, double the speed, and an eight-fold increase in data broadcasting capacity of low energy Bluetooth connections, in addition to adding functionality for connection-less services like location-relevant information and navigation
Re:This is the same guy (Score:5, Insightful)
"It appears that Bluetooth 5.0 may provide support for higher quality audio"
So the sane decision is to wait until BT5.0 is out, widely adopted, and stable, before cutting the cord, yes?
Re: This is the same guy (Score:2)
And AptX is available on at least the Samsung Galaxy S3 and newer (https://www.aptx.com/products?field_product_brand_tid=12&field_product_category_tid=126), but still not on any Apple devices.
Works nicely withy S6 and the August EP-650 bluetooth headphones (which I also use on my linux desktop and was painless to use).
Re: This is the same guy (Score:4, Informative)
Apple hasn't even released a mac book with a skylake processor yet
Review of 12-inch Skylake macbook from April [appleinsider.com]
Why bother posting easily falsifiable lies?
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Just put aptX on Bluetooth like most decent quality Headphones and smart phones have. My Samsung Note 4 has supported aptX for almost 2 years now.
Gee, keep up with old technology....
I believe that the BT 5 audio standard is UNCOMPRESSED (or at least Lossless). That isn't possible without improving the underlying bitrate, which I believe BT 5 offers.
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It appears that Bluetooth 5.0 may provide support for higher quality audio.
Will it work with headphones that never need charging?
Re:This is the same guy (Score:5, Informative)
Did you know that MP3 is nearly 25 years old?
And Apple never sold MP3 music files. They started with 128kbps AAC and they've upgraded to 256kbps AAC a few years ago.
iTunes also allows you to rip your own CDs in even higher bitrates and in Apple Lossless (Apple's equivalent of FLAC).
So no, bitching about the quality of Bluetooth audio is not pointless.
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Sounds good ... if there isn't a corresponding increase in battery consumption. (i.e. you can't get something for nothing, especially when they constantly try to make phones thinner at the same time for some stupid reason)
Low power bluetooth signal vs powering magnets that are physically driving a plastic cone? The phone's battery is powering the current ear buds. In a wireless scenario the the wireless device has its own battery.
Re:This is the same guy (Score:5, Interesting)
He also founded CL 9, maker of the first programmable universal remote control.
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also represents the most successful period of apple's short history
Re:This is the same guy (Score:4)
/sarcasm, Riiight, because teaching kids "doesn't count."
WTF have _you_ done?
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Who left Apple more than 30 years ago, and hasn't done anything since.
He stopped working day-to-day at Apple in the early 90's; but in no way would I characterize his Post-Apple endeavors as "not doing anything". Far from it. He just doesn't self-aggrandize; so most people never hear of the many, many things he has done after leaving his day-to-day job at Apple.
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Also note that this topic isn't quite random and does cover technical areas that are within his field of expertise. On top of that driving paper/plastic cones with magnets isn't exactly modern technology and predates the 1970s.
Lack of another huge success like the Apple I and II does not reflect upon engineering skills and opinions. It reflects that success often demands much more than engineering skill, many non-engineering skills often.
Re:This is the same guy (Score:5, Informative)
Other than being a first class engineer and proven visionary?
You are a massive retard if you think he has any vision. Jobs had the vision.
Vision exists in design, in the user experience, AND in the design and implementation of hardware and software. Woz's vision is in the later areas, Jobs' in the former.
This moron was still pushing the Apple II well after it was obsolete.
The Mac under Jobs was not successful, its eventual success only came under the stewardship of others. At the time of Jobs' ouster from Apple in 1985 the Apple // was generating over 80% of Apple's income. The Apple // generated most of Apple revenue for many years after Jobs' departure. It wasn't until the early 1990s that Mac became the primary source of revenue.
// saved Jobs with the Apple III and save Jobs again with the early Mac.
And in the early 1980s it was Jobs that prematurely downplayed the Apple II in order to focus in the Apple III, which was a major failure and helped create an opening for IBM. So Woz and the Apple
Every venture this guy has been in after he left Apple has been a massive failure.
Jobs had many failures with the Apple III, the Apple Lisa, the Apple Macintosh under his original tenure (others turned it around after his ouster), the NeXT computer, etc. The eventual partial success of NeXTSTEP as Mac OS X was a fluke of history, of Apple's two internal classic Mac OS replacement projects failing. When NeXTSTEP was standing on its own two feet it was never very popular outside of computer science labs. It was Apple's adoption, something independent of Jobs' vision, and the grafting of a Mac OS user interfaces for NeXTSTEP that made it partially successful (its core, not its original UI). Jobs' vision also failed with respect to larger screen iPhones. His vision failed with the 6th generation iPod Nano that was developed under his tenure.
// saving Jobs over and over as Job's post Apple // vision failed repeatedly.
Plus Jobs v2.0, the person who revitalized the Mac and pivoted from computers to phones, was a very very different person than the Jobs v1.0 that founded Apple and developed the original Mac. He spent many years learning from old and new mistakes to get from v1.0 to v2.0. Woz in contrast took off a lot of time to teach, literally, in public schools. Its silly to compare Woz and Jobs, in v1.0 days they were trying similar things, but in v2.0 days they were not and hence the comparison fails. The fact remains that in those v1.0 days is was Woz and the Apple
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Other than being a first class engineer and proven visionary?
You are a massive retard if you think he has any vision. Jobs had the vision. This moron was still pushing the Apple II well after it was obsolete. Every venture this guy has been in after he left Apple has been a massive failure.
Why don't you Log In and Repeat that Post, COWARD?
Re:This is the same guy (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually it is. It is short hand for:
* What have you done that is even 1/10 as meaningful as what Woz has accomplished?
* Where are your devices that helped change the world?
* Where is your computer langue?
* Where were you when they were _creating_ the personal computer movement?
* After starting a fortune 50 company why _isn't_ Woz allowed to "retire"?
* Why are you so insecure that you must put down others?
* Why do you criticize others when you're too afraid to even use a real name?
Only a troll criticizes a visionary and great engineer due to their own insecurity.
Re:This is the same guy (Score:4, Informative)
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How many cars do you have, Steve? Just curious.
Looks like about four [cultofmac.com], as far as cars go.
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Never mind 2 weeks, it was probably too late 12 months ago if not more.
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And talk radio channels are so heavily compressed it is sometimes hard to understand over the road noise.
However, that's in my wife's car. In my car, I do not have SiriusXM capable radio, but I have a USB input into a 3rd party headend. So I use the SiriusXM app on my iPhone and stream over LTE. In the app you can select "Maximum" for streaming audio quality. This setup actually sounds really good, better than any FM radio station (even ones supporting HD Radio). And it doesn't even dent my monthly usage at
Jobs was the face of Apple, not the heart of Apple (Score:4, Insightful)
Steve Jobs that made Apple what it was
According to Wall Street but engineers tend to feel very differently. The simple truth is that it was a partnership. Without the revolutionary hardware design of Woz, Jobs wouldn't have had such a low cost and capable machine to sell. There are engineers as talented as Woz, and pitchmen as talented as Jobs, that have not had "great" success because they never met their peer from the other side.
Similarly Jobs' success with the Mac and iPhone also relied on extremely talented engineers, required them.
Jobs was the face of Apple, not the heart of Apple. That heart lies in the engineering talent.