How AT&T Totally Flubbed 4G 199
adeelarshad82 writes "Turns out that AT&T may be lying about 4G. The company's two '4G' phones and its '4G' modem don't deliver 4G even by AT&T's own standards. In fact, test results show that the company is delivering '4G' devices that are actually slower than the carrier's own 3G devices. So how can they get away with this? Well, initially the International Telecommunications Union defined 4G as a bunch of super-fast technologies nobody used yet, but the ITU crumbled under pressure from various cell phone companies and now defines 4G as any cellular Internet network that's faster than what was considered the fastest technology in 2009. Between the revised 4G standards and a little fine print in its ads, AT&T is able to legally indemnify itself against the fact that its current 4G claim is totally worthless. While other carriers also claim that they have 4G networks, Verizon's LTE is the only technology which comes close to real 4G."
Patectic ITU (Score:2)
Re:Patectic ITU (Score:5, Insightful)
Standards bodies have become nothing but the whore of businesses.
The main problem with standards is that they aren't.
Re: (Score:2)
Standards bodies have become nothing but the whore of businesses.
The main problem with standards is that they aren't.
Standards, like rules, are meant to be broken...
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Pathetic ITU (Score:5, Interesting)
What's more, the ICU charges a small fortune for said standards documents.
Part of the blame is on the ICU - the carriers started advertising 4G before the standards came out, forcing the standards to meet the claims. This is no different from how Netscape and Microsoft killed HTML 3.1 when it finally came out and forced the W3C to adopt a nonsensical bunch of crap as a replacement. The fragmentation that followed permitted Microsoft to kill Netscape and caused much of the crap that followed. The W3C will be picking up the pieces for years.
Standards bodies should be flexible but they must ultimately be the law enforcement of all technology and crafts. They are the modern version of the guild hall, the corporations are merely the apprentices within.
Re: (Score:2)
Standards bodies should be flexible but they must ultimately be the law enforcement of all technology and crafts. They are the modern version of the guild hall, the corporations are merely the apprentices within.
Like The Sorcerer's Apprentice [wikipedia.org]?
Re:Patectic ITU (Score:5, Insightful)
Rubbish. They were too ambitious with their requirements for calling something '4G'. Seriously, 1 Gb/s connections? There was obviously going to be a generation between 10 Mb/s and that. If they had had their way we'd have that 2.75G nonsense all over again.
Basically now 4G = LTE. I'm fine with that -- especially as it is more than a just a speed upgrade, e.g. it has (supposedly) lower latency, and is fully IP-based.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Wikipedia says "1 Gbit/s for low mobility communication (such as pedestrians and stationary users)"
Given that I, a pedestrian and stationary user, get about 3 Mb/s on 3G, that is a jump of more than 300x. Even accounting for theoretical vs real-world performance it is insane to think that jump is going to happen in one generation of technology. Even fixed network speeds only get 10 times faster per generation.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes I know it's all DSL but because it's UPC the cable provider's 120Mb is out of the question.
No you won't get Gbps speed (was: Re:Patectic ITU) (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, LTE advance (release 10 of LTE actually, as it's an incremental improvement) has a top Category 8 device that peaks at close to 3 Gbps. Go to www.3gpp.org and fetch TS 36.306, the categories are in section 4.1. Base LTE goes from Cat1 to 5, and LTE-A added Cat 6 to 8.
Now you need to know only one thing: the last category is mostly never implemented. These standards are hugely complex, and competition is fierce. So people get carried away and promise the moon. Then engineers in standardization start the serious work, and see what's possible, and it's not the same. So to be polite, the last category is dimensioned to match the silly promises, and nobody implements it as it is too impractical (unacceptable power consumption to start with, reliance on huge spectrum not available and on too many antennas that wouldn't fit in a handset, just as a few examples).. And the lower are made to be practical.
In basic LTE, the last category 5 was 300 Mbps downlink. What's implemented in practice today is Cat3 at 100 Mbps DL. Maybe some will push to Cat4 (150 Mbps) for bragging rights, but it'll make little difference in the field (we're talking peak rates here, which is only possible on a small part of a cell).
In LTE-A (R10), the last category 8 is ~3 Gbps DL. And the previous practical categories 6 and 7? Well, they're 300 Mbps. Yes you read it well, that's a factor of 10 difference. That should tell you all you need to know about Gps speed.
Today, power is already a challenge with WiMAX, which is 2 Rx chains and 10 MHz. LTE is 2 Rx chains and 20 MHz. LTE-A to meet 1 Gbps would need 70 MHz and 4 Rx chains (for 4x4 MIMO in DL) for example. Nobody has this contiguous spectrum, so that means carrier aggregation, at least 2 bands in practice. So you need 8 Rx chains, which draw power. That's a factor of 4 increase on the RF side. And the baseband is more complex too. All that while the first base (R8) LTE handsets are power challenged.
So please people, get real and use common sense. All this talk of Gpbs speed (even in static) is getting embarrassing. Sure, it's easy to do and perfectly possible on a demo set-up where power and footprint (for all the antennas) are no issue. If you talk real life, it's a different thing.
Besides this, LTE is still a very good standard a significant improvement on what we have. And LTE-A will also be a significant improvement too. But instead of focusing on silly peak rates, go to the 3GPP web site and look at the performance assessment for LTE-A for cell average. You'll find that LTE advanced is expected to be 40 to 60% more efficient in average than LTE. And this is a big gain.
Last point, because we're on Slashdot and we can talk real tech, you need to understand that peak rate doesn't matter much now. Seriously, WWAN faster then WiFi (which is also BS with talk of 600 Mbps, but that's a different story. On portable device it's 20 to 30 Mbps typically)? What matters now is handling the data explosion, and this means improving the network capacity. People always push peak rates as it's more sexy for the average Joe, but that's capacity that matters. Even for you. But it's certainly less sexy and harder to explain.
Still, whenever you hear about higher peak rates, understand that the features underlying the improvement will in practice not be used for higher peak rates, but for increased capacity. Example: MIMO. LTE-A goes up to 8x8 MIMO in Cat8, but that won't be used in mainstream product (and maybe never, as doing a complex chip for a niche market looks very expensive). But you can still have the 8 antennas at the BS, and only 2 at the terminal, and do multi-users MIMO with 4 concurrent users, each using 2 SM MIMO layers. That's really what the standard is made for, and it will increase the network capacity for our benefit.
Thanks for reading so far. I needed the venting on that topic
Re: (Score:2)
Well said.
Where I'm from (South Africa) the "What is 4G" question is a hot topic as it is affecting how operators may or may not advertise their networks.
Because of this we actually have an official statement from the ITU which basically states that while they don't necessarily endorse the use of 4G for non IMT-Advanced networks, they acknowledge that networks are going to do (and have done) so.
I also have the GSMA on record saying that they think that LTE will be considered 4G, even though it technically
Re:Patectic ITU (Score:4, Funny)
I think most whores would take exception to being compared to politicians. I mean, at least SOME whores still have souls.
And if you pay a hooker, you're the only one who gets screwed. Pay a politician, and everybody else gets fucked.
In other words (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Beauty? fear? death? sleep? anti-magic? disintegration? transformation? levitation? slowness? suffering? Sure.
Now they get WIMAX as well?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I had to use 3.5 stats since I can't find an old v1 mm.
(Contrary to popular belief, they do have a blind spot, unfortunately it's directly beneath them.)
Re: (Score:2)
I was going for a more artistic interpretation, and only rattling off a few that popped into my head, but yes.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm holding out for 6G Bieber Fever.
Re: (Score:3)
I'm holding out for 6G Bieber Fever.
I'm waiting for 640G. It's all anyone will ever need. ;-)
Re: (Score:2)
He denies ever saying that, mind you. See here. [google.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I happen to have a very easy way to factor prime numbers.
for prime N its factors are {1, N}
Re: (Score:2)
Anyone - anyone at all - can be edited to look stupid, evil, charming, brilliant, petty, or anything else you should choose, if only you have enough raw footage.
Re: (Score:2)
Ahhh Bill, we'll never let you live that one down ;)
Speaking as one of the many who had to deal with the repercussions of that decision, no I won't.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Supposedly, AC prefers "shaved biebers" but I'm not really sure I want to know what that is, given his propensity for goatse man.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Alternatively the Beiber represents the characteristic state separating "conventional" female appearance from "butch".
News of the Hour (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
This is the real downfall of society. We have so little care for the truth that we now take as a given that any business offer is a lie.
Good morning you say? What's the catch?
Re: (Score:2)
This is the real downfall of society. We have so little care for the truth that we now take as a given that any business offer is a lie.
Some of us do. Despite my attempts to explain this to my mother, she still believes that "50% off today only" signs are true, and that the original price wasn't marked up to compensate, even if she goes past the same shop every day and the sign is still there. Only yesterday she was explaining to me how she absolutely had to get two of these kids toys for my kids because they were "2 for $20" and it was "$16.95 for 1" and "such a bargain at that price"... and yet again because I explained the reality that t
Re: (Score:2)
Many individuals do care, but feel powerless to fight the tide of lies. If we as a society did, then the liars would face real legal sanctions and proper enforcement such that it would be unprofitable to lie.
I have a feeling that one day the public's threshold of pain will be crossed and there'll be hell to pay.
Re: (Score:2)
I am blaming the businesses that lie so rampantly that it's the norm and the government that is supposed to prevent exactly that.
.
This is innovation (Score:5, Informative)
I'm sure glad our government doesn't kill innovation by forcing carriers like AT&T to actually deliver on the promises they advertise for their networks. AT&T is free to "innovate" a way to sell the same crap with a shiny new label.
Re:This is innovation (Score:5, Funny)
Definitions:
New: The price went up
Improved: The price went way up
New and Improved: If we sell any, our CEO will make for Forbes top 10 list
Re: (Score:2)
And, yes, I _AM_ talking about net neutrality.
Re: (Score:2)
How does anyone get away with anything? (Score:2)
Public relations.
Also helps to have a non-discerning customer base who are too willing to believe every iteration is better than the last instance.
buzzwords (Score:3)
honestly, customers screw themselves (Score:2)
Now AT&T is being shady... but people are like sheep when it comes to "latest and greatest" technology. Have you seen the Best Buy ad, where they say you can trade in your outdated technology for the new stuff? They show people buying something brand new, and then they immediately see something "better". It's ridiculous, but people buy into that crap.
Someone called my phone a dinosaur. It's an LG something that I make calls with and occasionally listen to MP3s with. It's only about 5 years old... b
AT&T has standards? (Score:2)
LIES!
ALL LIES!
nonsense from the start (Score:5, Insightful)
Useless?? (Score:2)
Because this xG marketing nonsense is useless... and always has been.
As long as it sells units and makes money it has a purpose.
You're just not ruthless or cynical enough to see that.
As for me, I'm jaded by the knowledge.
Re: (Score:2)
If you want to make a boast about how fast it is, do it like they used to do with modems: give us an actual numeric speed (e.g. 1200bps, 19.2kbps).
You mean like the 56k modems that couldn't legally do 56k, they were capped at 53.something? Or the 56k modems that wouldn't achieve even 53.something unless you were on a pristine copper pair 30 feet from the central office? You mean honesty like that?
Or honesty like Qwest, who advertises all their speeds for DSL in 'megs'. Forty smeggin' megs of what? Bits? Bytes? Bauds?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Verizon is sort of trying to do this. They are calling it 4G LTE which at least tells you which technology you're dealing with.
I forget which one Sprint uses or if it's 4G at all, same with T-Mobile.
Marketing took over. We need to kill the xG tag. (Score:3)
In the wired internet landscape, one number matters to this day... bps. When it was about modems, there were some slight variations in speed, but it was all about bps of your modem and the max bps of the carrier. Comcast beat Verizon DSL like a redheaded stepchild with bps until Verizon came out with FIOS, and Verizon returned the favor. They keep exchanging blows as to who is faster, but you can look up clearly on their website and find out which was faster. bps is like MPH, you know what it was and could explain it to someone simply.
However, this 3G/4G crap is just like the Justin Bieber/Ozzy Ozborne commercial. It's rapidly changing, confusing and stupid. The only reason to call something 3G vs 4G is to create new marketing speak. So I say kill the xG tag. Phones should be rated by how fast they can go, period, not by some nebulous xG bullshit. It only serves to confuse the customer and make it seem like it's better even though it's not, and thus give companies a reason to ever increase their prices unnecessarily.
Re: (Score:2)
The only reason to call something 3G vs 4G is to create new marketing speak. So I say kill the xG tag.
The latter won't happen because of the former.
You, myself and every other person with subject matter knowledge know its completely retarded ... but the general population doesn't, and the marketers are throwing far more resources at it than we have to return fire with.
They've won this round, we'll have to wait until Verizon, T-Mobile, AT&T or some other carrier has a distinct advantage and can provide the bandwidth consistently so they have a reason to go back to real values rather than marketingspeak.
Re: (Score:2)
Except bps does not factor in well with their network styles. When I had cable (worst 4 years of my internet experience... worse then even $2/hour AOL in the early 90's), my speeds were inconsistent, and frequently below 200kb/s when advertised as a 3mbps line
Since I switched to DSL, and then FIOS, I've seen a lot better consistancy in the speeds and lines. Perhaps it was a massive network mistake for my cable company in my area, but I never got 1/2 the advertised rate, even at 3am... Since then i've been c
Re: (Score:2)
Yes but my point is that the 3G/4G tag adds even MORE confusion by creating an abstract layer. With cable and DSL, for cable to not get sued they had to say "speeds up to blahblah." They are weasel words, but there's not much you can do, it's still plain english, and the populace can quickly learn "oh wait... they said 'up to', sounds like marketing to me." It's just easier to catch the weasiliness and make a better informed decision. 4G is not plain english, it's an entire specification which has been
4g bahhh (Score:2)
Lies... (Score:2)
Lies, damn lies, statistics and marketing.
In case you didn't notice...its AT&T (Score:2)
Can you hear me now? Was that a pin that dropped? You just paid another $4G's for another 2Y contract for the very same FREE electrons that were once broadcast into Gilligan's Island reruns on channel 2. Now we're paying for that network bandwidt
"How many bloody G's are there?" (Score:5, Funny)
I have a 7G phone. I just took out a sharpie and wrote 7 G's on it. You may now bow to my 7G superiority.
BTW, the volume on my stereo goes to 11.
Now, if you will excuse me I need to return to surfing on my "50meg" hi-speed internet connection.
Re: (Score:3)
I have a 7G phone. I just took out a sharpie and wrote 7 G's on it.
Amateur. What you do to get 7G is duct tape a 4G and a 3G phones together.
Re: (Score:2)
Please see my previous comment about AT&T (Score:2)
Just like 3G (Score:2)
3G and 4G are both marketing terms under the guise of technical specifications, using the minimum of actual specifications. It's like defining a particular fastener as "a length of material with a pointy end." Nobody can use that specification to create anything useful, or say anything about the product that technically meets that specification. The standards for both 3G and 4G are so broad as to be essentially useless for anything other than marketing, which is just the way the telcos want it. They wan
Re: (Score:2)
It's like defining a particular fastener as "a length of material with a pointy end."
You just hit the nail on the head!
Re: (Score:2)
It's like defining a particular fastener as "a length of material with a pointy end."
You just hit the nail on the head!
I dunno ... sounds screwy to me.
AT&T Allocates More Down Than Up, News At 11 (Score:2)
In spite of what the intentional vague summary may hint at, this is all about upstream bandwidth, not downstream. AT&T's "4G" devices are competitive with similar HSPA+ 14.4 devices when it comes to downstream bandwidth, which is why TFA doesn't even bother to mention it. It's upstream bandwidth that's capped: everything but the iPhone 4 is capped at 384Kbps.
However from AT&T's perspective they didn't flub 4G. As far as they're concerned they're running a content delivery network, not a content crea
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
BTW, the phone company (a.k.a., AT&T) has a business model based upon measured services, a 100-year tradition. They even
This doesn't shock me at all! (Score:2)
I live in a so-called AT&T "4G" area with HSPA+ coverage. My shiny new HTC Inspire 4G gets 1,200 kbps down and 400 kbps up when I run the speed test application on it. My old iPhone 3G averaged 1,800 down and 600 up in the same area six months ago.
DSL (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Even as a marketer, I agree. This is fraud, pure and simple.
It was questionable before there was a published spec, but no longer.
Re: (Score:2)
Marketing solution: "The first HD cellular data network"
Re: (Score:2)
Yep, that's fine. You can define all the words you want, just don't redefine ones that already have meaning.
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly, 3G and 4G are nothing more than marketing speak trying to dumb down the issue to the point the common consumer can understand.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The way you're using 4G and 3G is kind of confusing. The numbers themselves are rather broad, and technologies differ between GSM and CDMA. You probably want to refer to things like EDGE (3G)/HSPA+ (3.5G) (for GSM networks) and EVDO (for CDMA networks). And Verizon isn't doing anything wrong, inherently, the speed and lack of simultaneous data and voice is part of EVDO's standard and you'll notice that Sprint too has the same problems.
Re: (Score:2)
The way you're using 4G and 3G is kind of confusing. The numbers themselves are rather broad, and technologies differ between GSM and CDMA. You probably want to refer to things like EDGE (3G)/HSPA+ (3.5G) (for GSM networks) and EVDO (for CDMA networks). And Verizon isn't doing anything wrong, inherently, the speed and lack of simultaneous data and voice is part of EVDO's standard and you'll notice that Sprint too has the same problems.
I'll stick with T-Mobile, for now. Maybe not for much longer, since I understand that Sprint is about to buy them.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
That's fine if and only if it's also fine with them if I pay in gum wrappers. *I* say they are a monthly payment, that should be good enough.
Who cares about 4G (Score:3)
Re:Who cares about 4G (Score:5, Interesting)
Why can't they just quote what their average download speed is?
Because then people will divide their 20 meg cap by their 20 meg marketing speed and assume they can only use their phone for one second, and "I'm not paying that much for 1 second of service". Even if the 20 meg speed is pure marketing and you'll actually achieve 9600 baud speeds under normal use.
Re: (Score:2)
Insightful! Is there a registry of "this is the download/upload speed I get for X network in my area"?
Re: (Score:2)
There is: dslreports [dslreports.com]
What is the acronym for 4G deployment? (Score:5, Funny)
4Gery
Re: (Score:2)
... the Internet speed stinks on ice.
At this moment the "Speed Test" app from speedtest.net shows 1173kbps down and 196kbps up.
Wow, After loading a slimmed down firmware on my G1, I get over 3 mbps
Re: (Score:2)
you do realize AT&T haven't enabled full $G HSUPA speed for the atrix yet right?
I was thinking of getting one until I realized i would end p witht he same 3G/ edge mixture that I have to deal with now.
At least it is better than verzion. Where the speeds just taper off to uselessness without telling you why.
Re: (Score:2)
Where the speeds just taper off to uselessness without telling you why.
Is it really that hard to run a decent network? I mean, really?
Re: (Score:2)
No you just have to travel outside the cities, and major highways, and all cell networks disappear rapidly.
in some places you go as little as 5 miles from the major highways and verizon and AT&T both cut your cell phones down to phone calls only.
Multi million dollar homes, property values in the $100,000 an acre, and cell phone coverage of something equal to edge on the best of days.
Re: (Score:2)
... the Internet speed stinks on ice.
At this moment the "Speed Test" app from speedtest.net shows 1173kbps down and 196kbps up.
All other aspects of the Atrix are great. I love it vs my old iPhone 3GS.
I benchmarked my T-Mobile G2 (using a USB-tethered laptop) at 7 mbit/sec. That's not too shabby, regardless of how many "G"s you have attached to it.
... the thing is so fast as it
As it happens, I've been paying the extra five bucks a month for the T-Mobile's "4G" service. However, I'm going to repeat that test, because the SIM card in my G2 died Saturday, and the tech who replaced it told me, "Sir, the card you had only allowed 3G service: the new one will allow you to connect at the faster rate." Funny
Re: (Score:2)
any modern ADSL+ modem should be able to negotiate line speed on its own.. and your billing set the max at the dlsam side.. if they have their installers setting things like that on the modems then they have bigger problems.
Re: (Score:3)
We're goin' to 5 G's!!
Only 7 more marketing campaigns until we reach "hexadecimal B"-gees. Complete with "that 70s show" tv commercial tie-ins and a coupon for a free pair of levis bell bottoms and a village people DRMed ringtone download. I can't wait!
Re:FSCK IT! (Score:4, Funny)
+1 - The Onion reference [theonion.com]
Re:4G isn't even real. (Score:5, Insightful)
4G had a definition. 100 Mb/s for high mobility, 1Gb/s for low mobility.
Which were basically impossible goals to reach with current technology.
Enter HSDPA, LTE and EV-DO.
These technologies are significantly faster (or at least can be) than traditional '3G'.
So here's the problem. Are they 3.5G? 3G enhnaced? Are they close enough to 4G to warrant being called that?
The answer is... change the definition of 4G. Because, and lets be realistic here, No one is rolling out True 4G networks, not even close. But they are rollilng out technologies that are 2, 3 (even more) time faster than the current technology. To consumers, doubling performance or tripling it warrants more than 0.5. Which is a problem, because well, 4G actually means something. But once one guy starts using 4G, if you aren't either you fight with them in court, or you start using '4G' and let the definitions be damned and change them.
And when true 4G rolls around, it will itself probably be 3x faster than the current tech.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Well, a lot of them are still locked into their iPhone contract, until they can switch to Verizon.
Re: (Score:2)
Heh... You're kidding, right?
There's a bit better coverage, but they're just going to move to a provider that'll throttle their connections at 5Gb or maybe 10Gb and then bill them for the privilege at $10 per every Gb over. The ONLY reason I use Verizon is that they've got more consistent coverage for data and Voice than the others based off of personal experience.
Re: (Score:2)
Heh... You're kidding, right?
There's a bit better coverage, but they're just going to move to a provider that'll throttle their connections at 5Gb or maybe 10Gb and then bill them for the privilege at $10 per every Gb over. The ONLY reason I use Verizon is that they've got more consistent coverage for data and Voice than the others based off of personal experience.
I dunno ... I've had a really good experience with T-Mobile so far. Just lucky, I guess.
Re: (Score:2)
Because around here all the GSM providers suck, and if you buy your own phone with a CDMA provider you're stuck buying a new one or signing a contract if you want to switch. I had significantly better service with Sprint, unfortunately that did not extend beyond the network to customer service.
Re: (Score:2)
I wouldn't defend WiMAX so strongly. We're all going to be on LTE eventually, even Sprint [gizmodo.com].
Re: (Score:2)
You mean T-Mobile's spokesbimbo is lying to us???? If you can't trust hot chicks who can you trust?
Strippers!!! They're known the world over for there honesty and forthright conduct!
Re: (Score:2)
You mean T-Mobile's spokesbimbo is lying to us???? If you can't trust hot chicks who can you trust?
Strippers!!! They're known the world over for there honesty and forthright conduct!
Well, if nothing else when it comes to a stripper you know exactly where you stand. The same can't be said for the sociopaths that run our cellular companies. Or most of corporate America, for that matter.