Motorola Sticks To Guns On Locking Down Android 600
jeffmeden writes "'These aren't the droids you're looking for' proclaims Motorola, maker of the popular Android smartphones such as the Droid 2 and Droid X. At least, not if you have any intention of loading a customized operating system. According to Motorola's own YouTube channel, 'If you want to do custom roms, then buy elsewhere, we'll continue with our strategy that is working thanks.' The strategy they are referring to is a feature Motorola pioneered called 'e-fuse', the ability for the phone's CPU to stop working if it detects unauthorized software running."
What a great way to die (Score:5, Insightful)
Hundreds of thousands of potential costumers go "ok."
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Right. Hundreds of thousands.
Not millions. So an enormous company like Moto can do without them no problem.
Re:What a great way to die (Score:5, Insightful)
Are we really so weak that we absolutely cannot do without a smart phone until manufacturers actually start giving us what we want? I mean, we're the goddamn customers. Vote with your feet.
Some company's going to do the right thing and that's the phone you buy. That's all. You're not going to die if you wait a few more months to buy an Android phone. Or, you can do what I did, and buy a wi-fi only handheld device and use your regular phone because who wants a phone with 4 hours of battery life anyway? Do you really want to have to run to an AC outlet as soon as the plane lands so you can make a call just because you wanted to watch two movies on a cross-country flight?
There is power in being a consumer, and it's astounding that people have been so diddled by advertisement and marketing voodoo that they won't even consider using that power to get what they want.
Re:What a great way to die (Score:4, Interesting)
They have that and it's called GeeksPhone [geeksphone.com]. The price for mine was better than Google's developer handset and even though it originally came with Android 1.5 they have provided 2.2 (Froyo) and 2.3(Gingerbread). It comes rooted and their forums will happily help you with whatever mod you want to attempt.
I no longer care what Motorolla or anyone else does because I have a phone that does what I want.
Re:What a great way to die (Score:4, Insightful)
I admire your faith in humanity.
Which is totally useless if the reason you are interested in a smartphone is so you can, I dunno, use the internet everywhere or something. Maybe you live in some magical land with free wifi everywhere and you never go travelling at all, but most of us aren't so lucky.
You watch movies on your phone? How strange. Most of us use the movie-watching device handily built into the seat in front, or a laptop if we want to bring our own.
Yeah, like there's power in being a voter. But I don't see many supporters of minority parties celebrating because their interests are being represented in Congress.
Re:What a great way to die (Score:4, Interesting)
There is power in being a consumer
Yeah, like there's power in being a voter. But I don't see many supporters of minority parties celebrating because their interests are being represented in Congress.
The beauty of the free market compared to democracy is that you don't need to be in the majority to get what you want. The majority can buy from Motorola and others while you can freely buy from the those that cater to you. Personally I have an OpenMoko Freerunner [openmoko.com]. If you want something newer you could have look at GeeksPhone, [geeksphone.com] Nokia 900 [nokia.com] or one of the many other phones out there to see if they are free enough for you.
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Are we really so weak that we absolutely cannot do without a smart phone until manufacturers actually start giving us what we want?
As with most things in life, it's not that simple.
This isn't a question about what we want versus what we don't want. It's a question about what we want versus what we want more. If there's a product out that does most of what I'd like it to do, in most of the ways I'd like it to do them, do you really expect me to not purchase it in the hope that the manufacturer will read my mind and somehow know I'm holding out for a couple function changes? Boycott doesn't work in and of itself.
Re:What a great way to die (Score:4, Insightful)
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Open or "open" (Score:3, Insightful)
Androids big advange is that is is open (compared to iPhone). All apps can run upon i without approval from the apple app store border. That does not make iPhone bad, it can still give a very good expierence.
But if you have an adroid phone, that is supposed to be open , and then you start locking a (big) part down, then you are limping: You don't have the advantage of an completely open platform and you don't have the advantage of closed expensive controlled fantasy environment of the iPhone.
If you do a thi
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For the vast majority of their customers, Motorola *is* doing the right thing.
Motorola is investing time and money in features that can only harm their customers. In what world can that possibly be "the right thing"?
Re:What a great way to die (Score:5, Funny)
What's wrong with Angry Birds? I run that all the time on my Droid running CyanogenMod-6.1.2 when I have a few minutes to kill and don't feel like reading, thankyouverymuch. Rooting your phone and mindless entertainment are not orthogonal activities, after all.
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And I go to all my friends "Samsung".
Why U.S. Galaxy S Phones run Android 2.1 Still (Score:2)
Samsung isn't exactly treating their Android phone customers well either.
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So root and install it yourself. This is about locked bootloaders not if they give swift updates.
Re:What a great way to die (Score:5, Insightful)
However, for that to happen, people need to care.
For the vast majority of the smart phone crowd, they do not care. Just as long as they can get that "urgent" work email, post a picture of their lunch and tweet about how tired they are in the evening.
Re:What a great way to die (Score:4, Interesting)
And this apathy is what they're all banking on. They can tighten down the screws and leverage the masses an excuse to do so. This is true for Microsoft, Apple, Motorola, and every vendor that forces you to root.
They want to do this to PCs, and I expect the push and attack on standard, uncrippled PCs to step up in the next few years. It's far more profitable that way.
Re:What a great way to die (Score:5, Insightful)
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Posting anonymously because I work for a company vaguely related to all this.
The only purpose of this is to allow them to use the next version of Android as a selling point ...
I'm not entirely sure that's true. I've been watching this for a few years, and I have this weird impression that this is all because wireless carriers, like cable companies, need to feel ... special. And that's really all there is to it.
Really. Take cable companies. Comcast wants to be your main squeeze, selling you a DVR and a selection of channels, and not just be a dumb pipe through which bits flow. Because deep down, that's al
Re:What a great way to die (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What a great way to die (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, you can keep telling yourself this - everybody who doesn't want exactly what you want clearly doesn't have a clue.
Here is a reference point: I am a computer scientist, I've been using Linux both professionally and privately on the desktop for almost exactly a decade now. But the very last thing I want of a phone is yet another device to upgrade or configure a kernel for, or worry about malware and viruses. Locked down sounds pretty good to me. I just want to have access to email wherever I go, I don't buy a lot of apps (I have 4 total), and I am not going to start developing for the darn thing. There is only so much time in a day, and the phone is one device that I don't want to have to fiddle with to have it work.
Re:What a great way to die (Score:5, Interesting)
I have a Moto Droid 2. I rooted it. It works FINE. Not bricked. It's using at most, a nice tethering app. Does all I want.
If I wanted a playground, I would have bought a park.
This is my experience. Yours will vary.
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Sure, but we'll see whether you still feel that way if Motorola stop supporting your phone with upgrades after 2 years (or less), telling you to upgrade and leaving you stranded at whatever version you're at, even though newer versions would run fine.
I'm using a stock 2.2 Froyo ROM on my Canadian Galaxy S and I will probably keep it that way until either the warranty runs out or Samsung refuses to make an upgrade available. At that point it will be nice to know that I can flash a newer custom ROM on it and
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Most consumers don't even have a clue what is being discussed, or care. As long as they can make calls, surf and buy stuff they wont know the difference.
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Re:What a great way to die (Score:5, Informative)
I despise Motorola and their rubbish. My parents had motorola phones previously, and they were so proprietary they wanted $90 for a program just to let us transfer pictures from the phone to the computer.
I dicked around (for hours) trying to get a home grown solution working and finally just gave up. It involved installing a driver from motorola (deeply buried on their web site), and a third party app for accessing it. All it did was hang. What I learned (but wasn't sure if I believed) was that even the USB cable was proprietary and while it was the same connection as a camera cable, it was wired differently.
So I don't particularly care what they say and do, there will be no more Motorola devices in this household anyway.
The folks have since switched to Blackberries.
Long before this, I hated Motorola for their shitty modems. Some of the worst rubbish that I have ever had the pleasure of tossing in the garbage.
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I despise Motorola and their rubbish. My parents had motorola phones previously, and they were so proprietary they wanted $90 for a program just to let us transfer pictures from the phone to the computer.
Most of the BS there was related to the carriers telling motorola what the software could and could not do. The carriers wanted to sell ring tones, and screen backgrounds. So motorola's phones that were more than capable were told not to. And the software that let you do anything at all to bypass the carrie
Dirty Secret - Carriers want this, not Motorola (Score:5, Insightful)
Motorola does not want to lock them down, the carrier(s) are forcing them to. I have inside info from a dev about this, and I've argued with him about it at length angrily. Unfortunately, their hands are tied, it's the carrier's way or the highway.
If you want to be upset at anyone, be angry at e.g. Verizon. People need to fight the carriers on this, it's about our freedom!!
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People need to fight the carriers on this, it's about our freedom!!
You guys are really sucking the life out of that word
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Hundreds, probably. Thousands, possible. Hundreds of thousands? Delusions of grandeur much?
Re:What a great way to die (Score:5, Informative)
There are something like a million downloads of cyanogen mod. Even if that is the same folks downloading each release you are still looking at hundreds of thousands. That is one ROM, not all of them.
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There are something like a million downloads of cyanogen mod. Even if that is the same folks downloading each release you are still looking at hundreds of thousands. That is one ROM, not all of them.
I was going to say the same thing. Sooner or later some vendor is going to release a handset with Cyanogenmod on it. Until then, if I can't run my Cyanogen, I'm not buying your handset.
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At least they're not pulling a Sony on us, selling the things as open and then revoking the ability, after they scammed us out of our money. But it looks like I will not be buying from Motorola again from now on.
I wonder what company wants to go on my (permanent) blacklist next...
Is that a challenge? (Score:3)
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The ones who know what they're doing aren't the masses. They're the ignorable minority.
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Re:Is that a challenge? (Score:5, Insightful)
Quite the opposite, we're very uninteresting as customers.
Do we buy ringtones? No, we know how to make our own (provided we care about them altogether).
Do we buy background pics? No, same applies.
Do we buy applications? Rarely. More often than not, we'd know a free alternative.
We're not really the dream customer of someone trying to peddle phone crap.
Re:Is that a challenge? (Score:5, Insightful)
i get quite annoyed at the constant arrogance and elitism on /.
sorry to burst your bubble - this isn't an elite site, and the "99% of the masses" argument is pure shit that i hear everywhere all the time, in many different disciplines.
whenever someone asks me to recommend them a TV, the conversation will lead to "nobody would ever notice that", but yet we're talking about it and a choice about what to buy is being made based on it.
what do the masses do when they need advice? they ask that nerd friend of theirs. if the nerd has communication skills slightly above the lower end of the Autism Spectrum, the masses will even get a useful answer.
be honest, how many times have you heard a friend say something to the effect of "i'm looking for a smartphone but i don't want an iPhone... what should i get?".
consider each time someone asks that as a lost sale for Motorola...
i don't think it'll kill their business, but their overall crap products certainly are having an effect, and political issues such as this (yes! political! not technical and therefore outside the grasp of the average simian on the street!) will certainly make a large dent in the long run.
Re:Is that a challenge? (Score:5, Informative)
But if you want to waste electricity, you can sign up for the efforts to brute force Motorola Milestone [xda-developers.com] - their first phone to feature this draconian lockdown.
Re:Is that a challenge? (Score:5, Informative)
That link is for the old project.
Here is a link [xda-developers.com] to the new AndrOINC Project [xda-developers.com]
Dump your Motorola stocks (Score:5, Insightful)
A company who tells its clients to go buy from someone else is usually on the way out...
Re:Dump your Motorola stocks (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple have this exact attitude and they just posted a record revenue of $26bn for this quarter, beating Wall St estimates by $2bn. Looking at their iPhone sales alone, they are the largest mobile phone vendor in the world by revenue. They have $60bn in cash reserves and no debt.
All other things being equal, sure, more customers = more profit. But all other things are rarely equal, so summing an entire company's future up into one single factor is idiotic.
Re:Dump your Motorola stocks (Score:5, Interesting)
Apple has the opposite attitude. They don't say "buy elsewhere" they say "by our stuff instead because ..." and then continue with 20% truth.
Motorola's mistake is that they're telling people to "buy elsewhere" instead of just lying to everyone like Apple does.
Apple doesn't sell a commodity (Score:5, Insightful)
Motorola plays in the commodity Android space. You know, where features rule and competition is fierce.
Apple doesn't play by those rules and makes up their own... but they write their own OS, design their own chip, and create a unique product out of the whole mess.
Apple "gets away" with their arrogance because they have something other companies don't... and consumers like what they have.
What has Moto done lately that HTC or Samsung can't match?
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In the first example the TweetDeck CEO said that developing their product for Android wasn't a nightmare. Of coarse Steve Jobs never said it was. He cited a report by TweetDeck about how manny different versions of Android their software was tested on.
I don't think apple ever denied that holding the iPhone 4 a certain way could harm reception.
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I don't think apple ever denied that holding the iPhone 4 a certain way could harm reception.
No they simply lied by saying all other phones have the same problem. The lie is that it's not the same problem. I certainly don't suddenly drop my call when I pick up my phone. My father's iPhone 4 does, and he spends his time upstairs with better reception.
Seriously even fanboi elitism should have a little meat to back up the argument.
Fractional Users (Score:5, Funny)
That isn't what they are saying, it is just what the 0.0000000000000003% of users that might want to install their own OS
Got a little carried away with the zeroes there did we? Even if everyone on the planet owned a Motorola phone that would be about 20 billionths of one user who is understandably going to be rather upset when several thousand brain cells attempt to install their own OS.
"Then buy elsewhere" (Score:5, Informative)
Motorola Xoom (Score:2)
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I second that, I have a Motorola Milestone right now, and because of the valiant efforts of others, and despite Motorola, I have it rooted and love it.
I have been drooling over the Xoom and hope to be able to buy one as soon as possible... but if I can't have root, I may have to try for a different tablet.
I'm sick and tired of companies who think they can tell me what to do with MY hardware after I have purchased it from them, it isn't theirs anymore, I'm ok if they won't support any changes I make, but I'm
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A locked bootloader is - for me anyway - unacceptable, hopefully they don't half ass their new policy on it: http://moto.ly/bootload [moto.ly]
Great! (Score:4, Insightful)
Let 'em fail. It wasn't that long ago that motorola could barely GIVE their phones away.
Dumbfounded...... Can anyone explain? (Score:3)
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Carriers who don't want you using more bandwidth than you are paying for.
Re:Dumbfounded...... Can anyone explain? (Score:5, Insightful)
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"e-fuse is there so that Motorola can stop releasing kernel updates when the droid 3 comes out so that you are forced to buy a new phone if you want the latest version of android"
They don't need e-fuse for that; they simply either cancel any update plans for the phone or make you wait so long for an update that your contract expires before they deploy it to the phone. I've had this happen with my Milestone and x720 and believe me that these will be the LAST Motorola phones that I buy for myself or my family
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Stop, just shutup. This cannot happen. The OS just talks AT commands to the cellular modem. It can't do any magic bad stuff.
This is FUD you heard, no reason to go spreading it.
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That is exactly how it works. Android has no functionality to do anything else. My android phone is no different than my linux laptop with a USB cellular modem in this respect.
Who should I buy from? (Score:2)
So who is more ROM friendly? Samsung? LG? HTC? Someone else?
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I hear the Samsung are alright if you can get past the RFS (not Reiser) issue.
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Propitiatory drivers and Samsung messing around with the code are the main problems
Re:Who should I buy from? (Score:5, Informative)
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Get a Nokia N900. No firmware locks at all and more open than any Android handset.
Oh and if you do for some reason want Android, there is a N900 port at all.
Misleading Headline. (Score:5, Insightful)
This is not locking down Android, this is locking down a Motorola Handset.
Hardware lock down, not software. Pretty big distinction.
But Motorola has jumped the shark. HTC are offering better handsets and MotoBlur is a complete joke. I liked my Milestone too, but due to Motorola's insistence on locking it down I wont be buying the Milestone 2. HTC Desire Z looks a lot better.
Re:Misleading Headline. (Score:5, Insightful)
What's the practical difference though ? The big advantage of Android compared to iPhone, I'm always told, is that it's open and there are so many different models to choose from. But what remains of those advantages when you have to eliminate a lot of phones because they are just as locked down and then have to research the remaining models to see which can be rooted, what the difficulties are, etc. ?
Re:Misleading Headline. (Score:4, Informative)
That you can get a Nexus and have the open experience. No iPhone model like that.
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Please tell me I don't have to explain this to you.
Sigh
Because other Android models are not affected. Very big difference there.
Well this sends a message to the manufacturer that something is not right with their prod
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Buy elsewhere. (Score:2)
For all of you who are tech savvy at all, the message is clear "Buy Elsewhere". I for one fully plan on joining MOTO in their boycott of..... MOTO. Smart move guys!
Atrix (Score:2)
The Atrix looked exactly like what I needed, especially with the netbook like dock. But if they are so intent on not getting my money, then they won't. I was already doubting my decision, because I would like the Android version after the current one, and now the risk is just too great for not getting it.
So what should I buy? (Score:2)
Well (Score:2)
Bootloader Feedback Policy (Score:5, Interesting)
Seems that sentiment was pretty quickly retracted. http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=495971028278 [facebook.com]
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Redundant (Score:2)
It doesn't take a statement from the company. Just look at the devices they are offering. Users who want to run custom firmware aren't the kind to walk in and say "one android please". You do basic research. You check if custom ROMS are known to work. You don't buy Motorola.
WTF?! (Score:2)
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Why didn't Google make Android GPLv3? (Score:2)
Sure, the kernel must continue to be GPLv2, but the user mode components can still be GPLv3, and it is compatible with the Apache license.
The word 'e-fuse' doesn't mean what you think (Score:5, Informative)
The strategy they are referring to is a feature Motorola pioneered called 'e-fuse', the ability for the phone's CPU to stop working if it detects unauthorized software running.
Oh not this bullshit again. This was first published by an ill-informed "hacker" a while back and regurgitated by every blog in the world with no fact checking.
Motorola has even stated very clearly that they never intend to completely brick a device if it detects an unauthorized ROM. It'll just need restoring. The SoCs Motorola uses are in no way pioneering e-fuses. Someone just read a gigantic amount of conspiracy into the tiniest of press release. This is OLD technology. Can this lie please go away?
Re:The word 'e-fuse' doesn't mean what you think (Score:5, Informative)
Correct. The actual technology here is TI's M-Shield, a feature of the OMAP processors. Motorola was just one of the first to use it in a noticeable application. M-Shield which lets OEMs burn a public key into a set of ordinary e-fuses, which the processor will use to verify a boot-loader signature, falling back on a recovery firmware if the signature is not valid.
Update to article (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Update to article (Score:4, Insightful)
I think they said they were sorry... is that the same as an apology?
I really think they are only sorry that this is a big black eye, and is going to hurt in the morning.
"The response does not reflect the views of Motorola." can be translated as "our responses should not piss off customers"
This just seems like damage control to me, an apology means they are sorry about What they have done, not just sorry about the consequences of a poorly worded but truthful response.
Why is Nokia still sleeping? (Score:3)
Hint: They Ain't Sleepin' (Score:3)
You might want to hold a mirror up over Nokia there.
Yes the body is still warm, but that doesn't mean much.
Oddly, I think you'll find that the rigor mortis was cause of death, not caused BY death...
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Remember that we are talking about PHONES here, traditionally a locked down *appliance* for several reasons, not desktop or laptop computers. Just beacuse they are now much more functional doesn't mean the market mentality has changed.
Once they start locking down general purpose computers,then we can talk.
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And remember that you can still get an OG droid, or a brand new Nexus S.
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99.997% of people don't care about this kind of thing. In a decade or two it'll be almost impossible to buy computing devices that aren't locked down. There are advantages for the vendor, and whatever disadvantages there are for the customer require specialized knowledge to even understand, so there is no market force to balance.
Thus dies the freedom that led many into computing in the first place. It was a good run while it lasted.
Thing it sounds crazy? Well not that long ago, the very *idea* of such a locked down device was crazy. Today they are all over the place and people snap them up.
Understand your sentiment, but keep in mind that one of the reasons Android is selling so well these days is because it is considered an open system, even by those who don't really understand the implications, as opposed to iOS. So, in a world where everything is totally locked down, a product that is not locked down might actually appeal to enough people that they would vote with their wallet, and ensure at least a niche for that product, if not more.
The "market" is just not something that will stay in
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Well true. But the lock down feature will appeal to the corporate types. So a few individual customers walk and instead they pick up Megacorp.
Not a bad exchange.
Re:welcome to the future (Score:4, Insightful)
Without free software to do the heavy lifting, the phone manufacturers wouldn't be able to compete at the same price point in the market, so free software developers actually have some leverage to prevent lockdowns in the future.
But for that, the community must be smart and use the right kind of license, eg GPLv3, but not BSD. If the Linux/embedded systems developers drop the ball and continue to use the wrong kinds of licences (GPLv2 is not good enough), then the future you talk about will certainly happen.
Re:welcome to the future (Score:5, Insightful)
Without free software to do the heavy lifting, the phone manufacturers wouldn't be able to compete at the same price point in the market, so free software developers actually have some leverage to prevent lockdowns in the future.
Here's a newsflash for you: Google created Android to make sure they have a presence in the lucrative mobile market and could care less about "open" and "free." The reason Android was released as open source is to take advantage of the geek word-of-mouth (or geek internet press) and the geek anti Apple backlash. There won't be any "leveraging" done. I guess this is the point where a a bunch of disillusioned geeks get together and vow to create a 100% pure open(tm) alternative (ETA: 2015.)
Re:welcome to the future (Score:5, Insightful)
Android's core is composed of the Linux kernel and the Apache Harmony libraries. They don't get to decide the license of those - and any code of the kernel they modify and distribute _must_ be released under the same license (GPLv2).
If Torvalds et all changed the kernel's license to GPLv3, Google and the phone manufacturers would either have to comply with it or stop upgrading.
So thinking that Google holds all the keys is wrong.
Re:welcome to the future (Score:5, Informative)
We've been over this. Torvalds can't change the kernel to GPLv3, because the copyright is owned by a thousand different contributors.
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He says he can't. Different thing entirely.
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He says he can't. Different thing entirely.
Unless all the developers of any code specifying a version number of GPL come around then he most certainly can't change the license, and given the response from a number of key devs [cnet.com] that is unlikely to happen.
That survey is almost 5 years old. A lot changed in the interim. GPL v3 got widespread uptake, showing the mood of the developer community, and a number of companies have taken high profile and flagrant advantage of apparent loopholes in GPLv2. It's usually a mistake to speak in absolutes about what Linus will or won't do. There is nothing stopping change of license for *new submissions* in files where all authors of that file agrees. If Linus rules this is allowed, then it will be allowed. And bad acto
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Google created Android to make sure they have a presence in the lucrative mobile market and could care less about "open" and "free."
Speaking as someone who would know, there is a significant faction at Google that actually cares about open and free. Larry and Eric sometimes lose the plot, but they get reminded.
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Carriers get to decide which devices are allowed on their network.
In the GSM world, carriers don't get to decide which devices are allowed on their networks. They get to issue subscribers (people) with identification modules (SIM [wikipedia.org]), which can be placed into any compatible device (phone, computer, or otherwise) and the device can then authenticate and talk to the network.
Re:Which smartphone for OS development? (Score:4, Informative)