Israeli Border Police Shoot US Student's Laptop 929
zerothink writes "American student Lily Sussman, 21, upon entry into Israel from Taba (Egypt, Sinai) caught Israeli border police in grumpy mood — after two hours of questions and searching through her belongings they decided to put three bullets through her laptop. Explanation? 'I'm sorry but we had to blow up your laptop.' Haaretz also covered the story." All three bullets missed the hard disk.
Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:4, Informative)
-passport stamps from Arab countries -various Arab publications -photos condemning Israeli military action in Gaza
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Insightful)
Seems a little odd they would attack her puter. Feels more like they were little babies because they didnt agree with her on some subjects so they hurt the only thing they could. School playground antics from grown ups, awesome.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Funny)
Given the other evidence they probably determined there was a statistically significant percentage that the laptop wasn't just a laptop, so they disposed of it how almost every group disables potential bombs, by shooting it.
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Would it be possible to design a bomb that goes off when shot?
Sure. Just carry a jar of nitroglycerine. The trick with that one is, rather, not to have it go off because you looked at it wrong.
Re:Shooting bombs? No bombs trigger when shot? (Score:5, Insightful)
The reason they're shooting it is to *try* to make it go off.
Typically this would be put in a bomb pit somewhere nearby. From reading the comments this is fairly common practice there. This one nailed it pretty well:
"I know many Jewish Israeli people who had their bag shot just because they left it unwatched for a couple of minutes. Yes, this is the unfortunate reality that Israelis live in, where Palestinian terrorist would do anything (such as put bombs cowardly hidden in laptops) to intentionally hurt innocent civilians. These are precaution measures intended to prevent loss of innocent lives (yes, sometimes at the cost of a cherished laptop because of a possibly careless border officer)."
Re:Shooting bombs? No bombs trigger when shot? (Score:5, Insightful)
"I know many Jewish Israeli people who had their bag shot just because they left it unwatched for a couple of minutes. Yes, this is the unfortunate reality that Israelis live in"
Not to belittle their situation, but anyone who's travelled much at all on public transport in London will be aware that they must not leave their belongings unattended "or they may be removed and possibly destroyed by the security services".
I'm not aware that it's happened to anyone I know, but the threat is there. Of course, we lived with a couple of decades of terrorist attacks ourselves long before Terrorism was the new bogeyman.
Re:Shooting bombs? No bombs trigger when shot? (Score:5, Funny)
A few months back I accidentally left a bag on the Tube. All it had in it was some incredibly sweaty gym kit - I'd just done 90 minutes of Bikram Yoga. I realised what I'd done on the way home and was terrified that I'd carelessly brought the whole London public transport system to a halt, but thankfully it looks like they didn't call in the bomb squad.
If the London Underground staff member who cautiously opened that bag, fearful of it blowing up, only to find my soaking clothes in it, is reading this, I apologise unreservedly for the appalling sight that must have greeted you.
Re:Shooting bombs? No bombs trigger when shot? (Score:4, Insightful)
> attacks ourselves long before Terrorism was the new bogeyman.
The UK only *thinks* they have terrorism problems. (The US too, for that matter.)
Spend a few months living in Israel, and you'll find out how it really is.
I'm not saying shooting the laptop was necessarily justified or the right thing to do. I don't know enough of the details of the situation to say that. But I will say that there are some security measures that Israel absolutely *has* to take, that would be viewed as unacceptably harsh in places with relatively low levels of terrorist violence. Israel really has very little choice in the matter. They're basically living in a war zone, all the time.
Did I mention that the entire middle-east is officially not on my "places to be sure to visit" list? Call me a wuss if you want, but I prefer to live in an area where the word "terrorist" generally calls to mind news stories from several years ago and several hours' drive away. Small-town USA is good. Our town doesn't make the news much, and we *like* it that way.
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It was *decided* that portions would be carved up and given to the Jewish people who had settled there. But the disaffected parties weren't given any say in the matter; just 'accept this'.
Little wonder they didn't care for it much...
I completely agree blame is well spread in this case. That was my original point, it takes 2 parties. Or as others commented, just one to start the pr
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"Palestine" was part of the Ottoman empire. Not a discrete legal entity.
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"Palestine" was part of the Ottoman empire. Not a discrete legal entity.
So that justifies massacres and expulsions? This is the same pro-Israel disinformation that claims Palestinians are just Jordanians/Syrians/Lebanese (choose as per your particular prejudice), and therefore not worth a damn. This is despite them having a longstanding cultural identity that is different to their neighbours.
Re:Shooting bombs? No bombs trigger when shot? (Score:5, Insightful)
Whether the Israeli military used white phosphorous when targeting civilians (the evidence suggests they were using it the way everyone else does, as flares at night to light up targets so the wrong building/person isn't shot) is irrelevant. As is the question of whether an errant bomb/missile hit a school in a war zone (mistakes happen and collateral damage is tragic, but it's not like it's done on purpose). The question is, have the Israelis have lived with random bombings in civilian areas long enough to justify extreme security measures with regards to unattended bags and suspicious cases crossing the border? I think the answer to that question is "Yes".
Re:Shooting bombs? No bombs trigger when shot? (Score:5, Informative)
Whether the Israeli military used white phosphorous when targeting civilians (the evidence suggests they were using it the way everyone else does, as flares at night to light up targets so the wrong building/person isn't shot) is irrelevant.
Considering they mostly used it at daytime, it surely isn't.
Re:Shooting bombs? No bombs trigger when shot? (Score:4, Insightful)
I defy her, you or anyone to start mouthing off at an Egyptian or Iranian airport and see where you end up. It won't be in a queue filling out paperwork.
That's good. Israel should use that as a tourist tag line "Israel: we're at least as rational as Egypt and Iran". Makes me want to visit.
Look, just because another government is more oppressive doesn't make their actions any less ridiculous.
Re:Shooting bombs? No bombs trigger when shot? (Score:5, Interesting)
So which part do you disagree with? You don't feel that it's unfortunate? Or you don't believe it is reality?
I disagree with the emotive language implying that Palestinians are the only ones killing innocent civilians. Particularly given differences in death counts e.g. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/14/gaza-city-fighiting-israel-un [guardian.co.uk] or the lack of running water for so many people
More than 400,000 Gazans were left without running water, while 4,000 homes were destroyed or badly damaged, leaving tens of thousands of people homeless; 80 government buildings were hit.[30]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War [wikipedia.org] or the ongoing dispute about construction of wells/water buildings + farming which Israel are preventing them from building (there are further links about the below, especially relating to actual construction and needs, and differences in water consumption, but no time to look them up at this moment)
According to reports, Israeli soldiers shoot towards farmers working on their lands along the buffer zone nearly every week...During Operation "Cast Lead" which ended in January 2009, private houses, workshops, cattle farms, tree groves, agricultural roads, water wells and rain-fed crop fields located within the area were demolished by the Israeli army.
So "unfortunate reality" that the poor israelis might have some bags and laptops shot given all the above, well yes, it does make me question if they have a sense of reality. Or perspective.
To respond to another post:-
Ohhh, I JUST love the "my side has it worse" game!
I'm not on anybody's side, except maybe the "let's not be hypocrites about this" side.
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I disagree with the emotive language implying that Palestinians are the only ones killing innocent civilians.
It's a story about a fucking laptop, you twit. If there was ever a comment more deserving of an "off topic" mod, I haven't seen it.
Re:Shooting bombs? No bombs trigger when shot? (Score:5, Informative)
"I disagree with the emotive language implying that Palestinians are the only ones killing innocent civilians. Particularly given differences in death counts or the lack of running water for so many people"
The problem with this type of argument is it completely ignores intention.
You see, the issue is this, Israel, with it's military might, could kill far more than the death counts it does if it wanted to. Hamas, because they are constrained and only have highly inaccurate rockets can't. Israel does at least, contrary to popular belief try and hit militants not civilians, but the problem they face is two fold, firstly a militant with his AK-47 taken away is easily classed as a civilian, because they do not wear uniforms, and secondly, militants hide amongst the civilian population. I wont pretend there aren't some dickheads in the Israeli army who do attack civilians, and I wont pretend the Israeli military try and cover it up when it does happen. What is pretty clear though is that the Israeli military doesn't have a policy of intentionally killing as many civilians as possible, else they'd just napalm the shit out of downtown Gaza and get far higher casualty numbers in contrast.
Now on the other side of it, you have Hamas, Hamas do want to inflict civilian casualties on Israel, in fact, that's their goal, but fortunately they don't have the means to do so very successfully.
So the raw numbers are often used unfairly to demonise Israel, because you see, Israel's kill count is much lower than it could be if Israel wanted it higher, but it's also much lower than the civilian kill count Hamas would like to inflict on Israel. It becomes even more of an issue when you realise that Hamas using civilian cover is the whole reason many Palestinian civilians die in the first place- effectively Hamas put them in the line of fire by launching rockets from civilian errors- in this respect Israel has to decide whether they just take the fire and receive casualties themselves, or try and stop the fire and risk Palestinian civilian casualties, but also take out the militants too. Hamas then also must bear some responsibility for the Palestinian civilian casualties themselves.
Again, just to make it clear, I far from believe the Israelis are saints, but I do realise it's not a simple problem for them, and it does seem clear they don't for the majority part intentionally kill civilians. They do a lot wrong, but they're playing a far less dirty game than Hamas, and by falling for their game of using civilians as cover as you are, you're just encouraging them to do it because the propaganda they get from it due to people like yourself looking only at the figures, not the facts, or the fact they can't be shot at but can shoot and kill Israelis freely if they aren't stopped makes the situation win-win. Do the Palestinian civilians a favour and recognise the problem of Palestinian civilian deaths for what it is- a problem that both Hamas AND Israel are responsible for rather than falling for the Hamas propaganda and hence giving them ever more reason to continue to put Palestinian civilian lives in danger by keeping it a win-win situation for Hamas.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Funny)
We're sorry miss, but that is a Macbook. Therefore it is horrible and must be destroyed before our children see it and make an arbitrary decision about the proper O.S. and hardware. You might get away with using that in a Muslim land, but here it is not kosher.
Probably Confusion, not Malice (Score:3, Insightful)
Feels more like they were little babies because they didnt agree with her on some subjects so they hurt the only thing they could. School playground antics from grown ups, awesome.
More likely that the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing.
Fact 1: If you show up at an Israeli border crossing with a bunch of Arab stuff, you are going to be subjected to extra questioning.
Fact 2: If you leave a bag unattended in Israel, it will be assumed to be a bomb (for obvious reasons), and will be destroyed.
I'm guessing that when the guard saw all her Arab stuff, they told her to leave her bag and go get questioned. Then another guard saw an unattended bag and called the bomb squad, w
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Informative)
Having been there, Isreal isn't even remotely 'western-civilized'. An American should seriously fear for their life there unless they know the ins and outs of that culture. God forbid you slip up and accidentally order a pepperoni pizza (my mother was ousted from the building) or stand in front of a muslim en route to prayer (my brother was picked up and thrown headfirst into a barrel of fish). A tour included a popular shootout spot, complete with bullet holes on either side of the alley. The airport we left from was bombed the day after we left. That place is NOT 'western-civilized', or anything civilized, or even safe.
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There are many faults about Israel, but these things are not typical of Israel the way I know it. Maybe the old city of Jerusalem? dunno.
First of all, I don't remember any bombing of any airport in Israel. There was a terrorist attack 35 years ago in Ben Gurion Airport. I'm sure you are not talking about that.
And the other two incidents - really weird. Pepperoni Pizza is very big there from what I recall.
Tel Aviv and its surroundings are very western-civilized. Jerusalem and the west bank are just plain fuc
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Interesting)
You can say the same about Northern Ireland, and indeed there are various parts of even Western Europe where certain seemingly ordinary behaviour can get you in a lot of trouble (like being in a particular place that unbeknownest to you is a "bad area" - like one block away from a busy ordinary central area). Parts of England are grim and like something out of Dickens, supposedly civilised Germany still has problems with trogodytes who will lynch certain categories of people or liberals who cling to concepts of people being equal. Here in Ireland most of the country gets drunk often - and the emergency rooms fill every night with the results. Like England, there is the problem of a roaming "underclass" who might take offense to you happening to look at them.
As for the US, the police there shoot people. Criminals are executed. People have guns for "safety". Being ill can pretty much being destitute too. Certainly being mentally ill or poor can mean being homeless. OK a gross simplification, but from a European country the US seems like the Wild West (or worse in some social respects). As regards ordinary people, I would suspect it isn't healthy in certain places in the US to be obviously Muslim, or the wrong skin colour, or even certain European countries like France. Being very Irish or very Italian probably causes issues in certain places too.
Basically the world isn't civilised, and "the West" although probably more civilised than many parts of the world, is still not entirely civilised either, and differs in its definition of it.
Israel is pretty civilised in general for a "trouble spot".
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Insightful)
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Do you know what the symbol for "Arm" is on the firing control mechanism for an M1 Abrahms main gun? I'm guessing they have a better idea than you, but then again you have a better idea of which symbol means "hard disk" on a computer case.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Funny)
Do you know what the symbol for "Arm" is on the firing control mechanism for an M1 Abrahms main gun?
Wait... you mean the design of the main US battletank supposes that the operators can't read english? Or is this from some israeli knockoff of the Abrams?
Yeah, the Israel version is called the Abrahams.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Funny)
It's easy to spot the difference, the gun is slightly shorter.
Re:Probably better for her than old TSA policy (Score:5, Informative)
What Al Queda stickers? What political statements?
Her blog only said Arabic stickers. AFAIK, the language is not (nor is speaking it or appreciating it) against any laws.
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Given the political statements on her laptop, one wonders what kind of provocation she might have tried with the guards. I don't believe that justifies their reaction, and wouldn't be surprised if they are disciplined (which will, of course, generate zero coverage outside of Israel), but most rational people understand that baiting Israelis is a rather dangerous sport.
Damn right, this is the country that has been said to have a policy of shooting unarmed civilians by one of its own army snipers.
"Sergeant Wahid Taysir, the sniper who killed Hurndall, has already said a policy of shooting at unarmed civilians existed at the time."
Full Article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jan/30/israel [guardian.co.uk]
Ok, the guy in question may have been saying this just to save his own skin as he was on trial for murder, but the large number of people, including children, killed in Gaza last year
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Funny)
She had the following on herself -hand drawn map of downtown Jerusalem -Arabic stickers on laptop -"Fuck Star of David" pic on phone
-passport stamps from Arab countries -various Arab publications -photos condemning Israeli military action in Gaza
It is not convenient at all forgetting the details you mentioned. They change nothing about the story. The only thing that can justify such an action is if her laptop battery was made by sony.
Now that's a threat.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course. Everyone knows that terrorists will do everything they can to draw attention to themselves while setting up a plot.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:4, Informative)
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She had the following on herself -hand drawn map of downtown Jerusalem -Arabic stickers on laptop -"Fuck Star of David" pic on phone
-passport stamps from Arab countries -various Arab publications -photos condemning Israeli military action in Gaza
Unless her name was Ms. McGyver, I don't see how posession of any of these items is a threat to anyone or anything.
And unless there was a good reason to shoot the laptop, these folks were simply acting like dicks with too much power and too much paranoia. (A common
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Insightful)
Half of those are covered by her living in Egypt, half of them by her being a journalist. Either of those in isolation or combination strike you as a bomb threat?
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Um, Egypt and many of it's citizens have fairly good relations with Israel because they realise Hamas, an offshoot of the Islamic Brotherhood is Egypt's biggest terrorist threat. This is why Egypt is happy to help Israel keep up the Palestinian blockade on their border, and why most of Egypt's citizens aren't too fussed about that either.
"Fuck Star of David" picture isn't something that's covered by either of these and yes it would strike me as a concern as a person responsible for security in a country tha
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Insightful)
She had the following on herself -hand drawn map of downtown Jerusalem
Geography students in Israel better start wearing kevlar soon.
-Arabic stickers on laptop -
If you're one of the 530 million people speaking Arabic, here's some news - knowing a language could be a crime.
"Fuck Star of David" pic on phone
I'm not one for nasty language, but I won't go popping bullets in things I don't like, Mr Columbine.
-passport stamps from Arab countries -
What's wrong with visiting an arab country? or do you believe in enclosing a race to their own land and prevent them from outside contact? Similar logic to that of a certain country, I must say.
various Arab publications
That sounds plain xenophobic. Education is not synonymous to English or Hebrew.
-photos condemning Israeli military action in Gaza
You should start getting trigger-happy with the U.N., Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and a dozen other human rights monitoring agenices and governemtns, because they condemned military action in Gaza. I should not have to leave my opinion at the border when entering a country, if my opinion is not causing any harm to anyone.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:4, Insightful)
You quite obviously have the luxury of living in a place where completely random things suddenly exploding isn't a regular occurrence. The border agents in Israel do not have that luxury.
When Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and all the other local terrorist groups stop stuffing bombs into everything they possibly can in order to blow up buses and nightclubs full of civilians, Israeli border patrol agents can stop testing suspected bomb containers by shooting them as a matter of policy. Until then, if it were my life and the lives of my friends and neighbors on the line, I'd be plugging holes in anything being carried across the border that I thought could even possibly contain a bomb if I had even the slightest thought that something wasn't right.
This snooty little cunt knew exactly what she was doing and she went there with every intention of stirring up trouble. What she didn't count on was the fact that - unlike where she's from - the government in Israel takes all potential threats seriously because they've been taught to do so by decades of cleverly hidden bombs blowing up their citizens at random. And the reason they questioned her for two hours is because they've learned from vast amounts of experience what to ask and when to figure out what someone's really up to.
She was packed to the brim with anti-Israel crap and had maps and directions to a public bus station and a hostel in the heart of Israel. She couldn't have looked more like a foreigner coming to do harm if she'd written "TERRORIST" on her forehead in red lipstick. So they decided her laptop could be a bomb and destroyed it the simplest way they could; by shooting it. And after all that? They gave her the info so she could be compensated for the damage done to her property. That's right; they're paying for the damage because it turns out she wasn't a terrorist carrying a bomb; just a snooty cunt carrying a big chip on her shoulder and a lot of attitude.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:4, Interesting)
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Congratuations! If you actually do shoot a bomb, you'll probably kill yourself and do a significant amount of damage to your surroundings. If you shoot a chemical or biological or radiation agent, you've just dispersed it.
Perhaps you should do a tad bit of research on bomb disposal methods prior to commenting further on the topic. Clearing the area, then firing shots into the suspected device is entirely common and appropriate procedure for securing such a device. We're not talking about nuclear ordinance here. The kinds of bombs that will fit in these kinds of packages having been assembled out of spare parts and pieces in somebody's kitchen will create a sufficient explosion to do significant damage only within a small, co
And the Palestinians are not under siege? (Score:5, Insightful)
Your attitude would directly increase the chances of more people being blown up in bus bombings.
And the attitude that any person who dislikes Israel should be treated like a criminal and denied basic rights does far more damage than any misguided kid's political views.
There isn't much difference between Israelis complaining about Palestinian violence and early pioneers complaining about Native American violence. If you take someone's land and property with force, they will probably do whatever they can to retaliate. If you don't want them to use terrorist tactics, have the US give the same amount of weapons to Palestine as it does to Israel. I'm sure the two state solution would suddenly be vastly more appealing to the hardliners who still want to steal Palestinian land under the guise of security.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Interesting)
-passport stamps from Arab countries -
What's wrong with visiting an arab country? or do you believe in enclosing a race to their own land and prevent them from outside contact? Similar logic to that of a certain country, I must say.
From the FCO website [fco.gov.uk] (just as an example): "You require a visa for Syria. Whether or not you have a visa you should be aware that if your passport contains an Israeli stamp or stamps from other countries' border crossing points with Israel, you will be refused entry to Syria."
Similarly, it's not recommended to visit the USA if your passport has a stamp from Cuba. Cuba know this though, so they usually won't stamp foreign passports.
I should not have to leave my opinion at the border when entering a country, if my opinion is not causing any harm to anyone.
That's funny, because when I went last visited your country I had to tick a box saying I wasn't a communist.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Informative)
Could either be suspicious or not depending on what said map entails. Given that according to the blog it was just the main streets in town, I don't really find it that suspicious at all, though I realize we're only getting one side of the story.
The Arabic stickers were on the keyboard, which, along with the Arabic phrasebook, would seem to indicate that she was learning the language. I don't know about you, but my guess would be that most people planning to collaborate with Palestinian terrorists would be at least fluent enough in said language not need a phrase book. It's not as if she has a bunch of Arabic stickers denouncing Israel stuck to her computer.
As per TFA:
It's not like she had some fancy logo from an Anti-Israel website saved as her background or whatever. She saw some graffiti and took a picture of it, that's it.
So legally entering and exiting these countries makes her dangerous?
What the hell does this even refer to? All she mentions is an Arabic Phrasebook. You're making it sound like she's reading a signed copy Osama Bin Laden's authorized biography when all she wants to know how to do is order food and ask where the bathroom is.
From TFA:
You're assuming that the photos were condemning the military action. There's no mention of whether or not they were for, against or simply neutral on the subject.
The bottom line is, the only way shooting the laptop makes any sense is if they believed that there was some kind of explosive hidden within it that needed to be safely discharged away from people and given the context, even that sounds like bullshit given that they saw the computer working. Data pertaining to terrorist attacks, etc, could simply be erased. They could have just impounded the hard drive or laptop if they found something about the information suspicious. No matter how I slice it in my head, I can't figure out why on earth they shot a fucking computer except that 1. it might be really fucking fun or 2. they were hardcore MS fanboys.
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She is Jewish after all (even if she's not religious apparently, that's not a crime). If she's going to Israel, then it sort of makes sense for her to have a map.
You mean? The stamp/sticker of an Arabic/Gypsy woman with rather large bosoms in a red shirt??? Is that the sticker you're speaking of? In Afghanistan too, the Taliban would probably have shot her laptop as well for having such a disgraceful sticker
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Informative)
Was the agent wearing a proper hazard suit and mask?
Second, shotguns won't set off plastic explosives. Neither will a high powered rifle.
But if a shotgun pellet hit a blasting cap it will definitely explode the whole thing.
From what I hear, terrorist improvised explosive devices tend to be made with more unstable stuff (blasting caps) rather than more stable things (c4).
By the way, forget everything you've ever seen in a movie about explosives, it's total B.S.
Also, all the E.O.D. guys I know of doing a 'disposal' will either move it to a 'safe' location or at least sandbag the snot out of it before dealing with it.
(You know those new bomb robots that have the built in gun? It's for shooting at the control mechanism, not the explosives, and if you don't know where both those parts are, you don't shoot at it unless you want to buy a new robot. Last E.O.D. robot I played with cost $2.5 million. Nobody wants that coming out of their paychecks.)
Yes, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to those substances, I really was a Munitions Systems Specialist in the military.
(Job kinda sucked, so did the co-workers, but it had it's good points.)
Either way you look at it, they pumped 3 rounds into just to be pricks and F with the girl.
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So I shouldn't cut the red wire?
OK, green it &# :"}$%._. ...no carrier
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Informative)
Either way you look at it, they pumped 3 rounds into just to be pricks and F with the girl.
Not true. I don't know why or how it works, but as an Israeli, I can tell you that it's standard procedure - they clear the area and bring in a robot that shoots the suspicious object.
Maybe they're actively trying to blow up the object ($2.5M is nothing in this regard, btw - do you have any idea how much the army spends with a much smaller ROI?), and maybe they've been fucking with the whole Israeli population for ~30 years, but it has nothing to do with this particular girl.
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They didn't clear the area, and there's no reason to believe they brought in a robot, given that they shot it in earshot of the rest of the travellers. If they did think it was a bomb, they were obviously keen to do as much damage with it as possible.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Insightful)
Selfdeclared? There WAS resolution of UN which allowed its creation. Most countries recognize Israel, even if they dont recognise Jerusalem as its capital. ... or all other states of world?
How about "selfdeclared" state of US? Or "selfdeclared" state of Syria? Or "selfdeclared" state of Spain? Or Iran
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Informative)
http://moinansari.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/israel-palestine_map.jpg
and that was using merkava "treaties".
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Aah, that map again. The one where "Palestinian land" can mean "the part of Mandatorial Palestine (a British-colony-type entity, that included all of that area) that the author decided was more "Palestinian" than the rest", "a plan that was accepted by the Jews, but rejected by the Arabs", "parts of Jordan and Egypt" or "the first time the Palestinians had any kind of autonomy, ever".
I won't try to deconstruct that moronic attempt at propaganda piece-by-piece - I'll just note that each step after 1947 could
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More like by winning wars that said Arab neighbors started in order to annihilate Israel.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, they were declared a state in 1947 by the UN.
But hey, sometimes facts just arn't as fun are they?
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Actually, they were declared a state in 1947 by the UN.
But hey, sometimes facts just arn't as fun are they?
After a long terror campaign by various Zionist groups - hey it may work for Palestinians too.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Insightful)
Israel was proclaimed an idependent state by Israel May 14th 1948.
The United States was proclaimed an independent state by the United States on July 4, 1776. Does that mean we don't exist, either?
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly how was her speech restricted?
Which prison is she currently rotting in?
Which members of her family have gone into hiding?
How long was she tortured for?
Oh, wait. I'm thinking of what happens to dissidents in Arab countries. In Israel, you get an apology and a cheque for a replacement laptop. Do tell us more, about how eeeeevil the Jewish state is. Your objectivity is remarkable!
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Yes, they are. She mentioned them in her blog entry.
Furthermore
Unfortunate. (Score:3, Funny)
But this is what happens if you don't set up partitions properly.
Backup! (Score:5, Insightful)
What.all my client case notes and testimony, writing, pictures, music and applications. Years of work. NO!!!! What?? Are you insane?? What were you thinking? THAT’S ALL MY WORK!?
What? There are a million and one things that could happen to a nice shiny laptop while travelling, if your data is that important it's pretty stupid not to backup, especially before travelling.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
What? There are a million and one things that could happen to a nice shiny laptop while travelling, if your data is that important it's pretty stupid not to backup, especially before travelling.
I work while traveling so backing up before embarking on a lengthy trip is of limited value. If you are on the road you have three options for backup: You can use an external HD which you have to carry with you and while traveling and which these paranoid guards would have put another three bullets through so although that's a valid option it's no good in a situation like this. Also keep in mind that your backup HD stands a good chance of getting stolen right along with the rest of your luggage. The second
Re:Backup! (Score:4, Interesting)
Use snail-mail to send SD cards to yourself. Works like a charm.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Do any slashdotters still have the recording of the customers voicemail regarding the lost data on his hard disk? I think it was to Compaq or maybe even Canon (?) it'd be over 10 years old and they replaced his hard disk without telling him and he went proper, proper insane in this voicemail.
I haven't heard it in years, I do recall the line along the lines of "last 4 years of my goddamn fucking life" or something.
Very thoughtful of them (Score:4, Informative)
She will be reimbursed on her shot MacBook.
Hyper-security in Israel (Score:5, Informative)
Nothing new to me. It even beats American airport security paranoia, I hear.
Here's an outline of the security measures at the train station near my home (minor suburban station with about a train an hour):
Before I enter the station, I see guard dogs, handled by security officers (in their 20s). They're actually a bit cute. Except they have sharp teeth and they're trained to kill etc.
I have to take my bags and put them through an X-ray machine, examined by a clueless security officer. I also have to step through a metal detector in case I have a gun/knife on me (never gets triggered by my belt and house keys)
Then as the train arrives, commuters are instructed not to board it until "security examinations" are finished (even if it's the back-and-forth shuttle train that only has two stops).
All train personnal are armed with a pistol. Including drivers. ... And then a 20 year old soldier walks in carrying an M16 and ammo which he is somehow allowed to because he has a slip of paper and uniform.
Security at its finest!
Re:Hyper-security in Israel (Score:5, Insightful)
Security at its finest!
I'll play! When was the last time someone managed to bomb or hijack a plane originating out of Israel? Now how about the US? UK? India? Germany? France? Spin the globe. Pick a random country.
Bonus trivia question: How many aircrafts have been hijacked originating from an Israeli airport in the entire history of Israel?
Re:Hyper-security in Israel (Score:4, Insightful)
It isn't paranoia if they're out to get you.
You can't win... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I see guard dogs, handled by security officers (in their 20s). They're actually a bit cute. Except they have sharp teeth and they're trained to kill etc.
Are those cute, trained to kill, and sharp teethed officers in their 20s, single?
well duh! (Score:5, Funny)
who wouldnt want to put three bullets through a Mac?
Had simply read the instructions (Score:3, Informative)
it's like the middle ages (Score:5, Insightful)
armed thugs stop the travellers on a regular basis, and demand all sorts of things from them, at gun point. like removing clothing, penetration of clothing (tap search inside pants), stealing items like water bottles and knifes, or destroying property as here. in worst cases they can even enslave you (called arrest and inprisonment now, or rendition)
this is not much different from the middle ages, where bandits would stop travellers, and demand all sorts of things from them at the threat of physical violence. at least, at that time one could prepare and fight back.
Mobility problem! (Score:3, Insightful)
It is obvious she is biased (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:It is obvious she is biased (Score:4, Interesting)
Lets see .. you're a terrorist, and you want to get a bomb into place. So:
o) you make yourself as conspicuous as possible ... put antisemitic stuff all over your baggage ... post TONS of antisemitic stuff on the internet just to be sure ... enter Israel from a country known to harbor terrorists
o)
o)
o)
Get my drift? It's that very kind of behavior at a border crossing that makes her the least likely candidate to be carrying explosives. Also, most explosives have a residue signature that can be easily scanned for in Israel because they keep that kind of tech handy at customs points. A few swipes with a swab and a portable scanner later .. you know -exactly- what's in the bag. Five minutes or less. I can't say if shooting her bag was an over-reaction, but I can say that at least at that facility -- they had options.
At the end of the day, it's a wash. She is getting reimbursed for the laptop, and the Israeli security forces look good inside of Israel, but look silly to the outside world. Nobody really wins.
If it had been a Thinkpad... (Score:5, Funny)
Priorities (Score:5, Funny)
On other news websites, "Thankfully, noone was killed". On Slashdot, "All three bullets missed the hard disc".
Its not an easy place to cross (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Most of the weapons at Ben Gurion airport are concealed, worn by very attractive officers as it happens. Sexy and deadly.
I saw plenty more German Shepherds and machine guns on display at Heathrow and Frankfurt airports, where the security was nowhere near as good when it all comes down to it. All show and no go.
Stupid bitch (Score:4, Insightful)
You have to be pretty goddamn stupid to fly into a fanatical military state like Israel from a Muslim country with a laptop covered in Arabic stickers. What's the next leg of her journey? From Israel to Iran wearing a star of David and demanding a kosher meal?
Stupid Slashdotter (Score:5, Insightful)
Arabic is one of Israel's two official languages. Why is it stupid to have Arabic stickers on your laptop? Because you're an ignoramus, would be my guess.
Re:Stupid bitch (Score:4, Insightful)
Good point, Israel and Iran are both fanatical countries....
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Is it wrong for an American to expect better treatment in Israel than in Iran?
Of course not. Which is why she GOT better treatment. Try flying into Iran with a "fuck mohammed" photo and hebrew stickers on your laptop. As a best case scenario you'll lose the laptop without compensation. Worst case, you won't be posting on slashdot for a long, long time.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
On the other hand, is it right for an American to expect better treatment in Israel than in America [slashdot.org]?
Not sure what the fuss is about (Score:5, Insightful)
Admittedly, it does not sound as if shooting the laptop (and the display, of all things) was necessary, or even helpful. Having said that, the Israeli procedure seem to be:
Contrast and compare that with the US customs, which says:
Even on sheer "friendliness", I'm not sure which I prefer.
Shachar
Let's say it was Iran (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You don't know anything about this (Score:3, Insightful)
Over 300 comments, most of them about how the girl deserved it because she had some Arabic stickers, or how the Israeli police is stupid and evil.
But the truth is: you don't know. You have no idea what happened there, what made the police suspect the girl, what she actually said to them, what they found in her luggage, or, hell, even if she was a terrorist, you'd have no way of knowing it.
All you've got is a short news article, and a short blog post, both very light on details. Even the girl doesn't know why the police blew up her laptop. The reporter knows even less. And you, the average slashdotter, know jack shit.
Seriously, people, get a grip.
The police were wrong! (Score:5, Funny)
Two anecdotes (Score:5, Insightful)
First - My work place was on the 3rd floor overlooking a main post office. I remember a case where someone left his groceries when he picked up his mail from his mailbox. About 20m later, we saw the guy sprinting back a few blocks down the street. However, the bomb disposal people were at ground level... and their robot shot his bag before he could get close enough for them to see him. Veggies everywhere. So no, this isn't picking up on someone in particular. Leave a bag unattended in a sensitive public place, and this may happen to you - regardless of who and what you are.
Second - I am sure this girl had a most unpleasant time. She is overlooking the fact that she wasn't a suspect as such. If you were a terrorist trying to smuggle a bomb into a high security area, a good way would be to plant it on some young, sympathetic, naive, idealistic western girl who is "obviously" not a terrorist - a profile this girl fit to a T. To rule this out you need to ask a lot of invasive, personal, seemingly irrelevant questions. If this sounds far fetched to you, read about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nezar_Hindawi [wikipedia.org] who planted a bomb in his pregnant Irish fiance's bag. I am certain she went through a most unpleasant time as well. I am also certain she appreciated keeping her and her baby's lives. I am also certain all the other passengers on her flight appreciated continuing living, too. And the crew. And all their families. And friends.
The bottom line is that security in Israel is different from the USA. Instead of inflicting ineffective, mindless, low-level nuisance on everyone, it focuses on people who may (knowingly or unknowingly) pose a risk and gives them a thoroughly unpleasant, but effective, screening. This method works. And for most people, Israeli security is a much more pleasant experience than going through USA security. Of course, for the few who end up getting the 3rd degree, it is much worse.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
RARE Collectible IDF SHOT MacBook Pro *** Limited Edition *** (Reserve Not Met)
If I may nitpick (Score:3, Informative)
It was shot by Israeli Police, not the IDF.
Shachar
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Translated should give some idea
http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=34520 [kibush.co.il]
"... paid Internet talkbackers are being mobilized in the service in the service of the State. The Foreign Ministry is in the process of setting up a team of students and demobilized soldiers who will work around the clock writing pro-Israeli responses on Internet websites all over the world, and on services like Facebook, Twitter and Youtube..."
Re: (Score:3, Funny)