FSF's "Defective By Design" Targets Apple Genius Bars 838
mjasay writes "At OSCON this year, MySQL's Brian Aker made this bold statement: 'Microsoft is irrelevant ... We're more worried about Apple.' The Free Software Foundation appears to have caught the hint, and has turned its attention to all-things-Apple with a 'denial of service' attack on the Apple Genius Bars. The idea is to completely book all Genius Bars and then ask the 'geniuses,' over and over again, a few questions about Apple's proprietary ways (while, apparently, real customers with support issues are left to flounder). Lost in this anti-Apple fervor, however, is the Free Software Foundation's complete and conscious failure to protect the web. Richard Stallman has long felt that software that doesn't sit on his desktop doesn't affect his freedom, but isn't the opposite true? Why is the FSF focused on Apple when the bigger concern should be Google, Yahoo!, Amazon, and other web players, a point made by Tim O'Reilly recently at OSCON?" Defective by Design is just one of many FSF projects, remember; it hardly seems fair to say that the FSF has been ignoring the implications of software as a service.
Mean-spirited? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:4, Insightful)
They don't already?
Actually, no, they don't; they don't know who the FSF is. And they still won't after this stupid publicity stunt.
Rob
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:5, Interesting)
Well I will. I've sent several donations already this year, but I won't be sending more.
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:5, Interesting)
I have to agree with you.
This kind of puerile stunt is simply absurd. Apple can and should sue them over this.
This is specially bad coming from a flagship name list FSF, and can cause serious problems for the opensource/freesoftware initiatives. Who will take us seriously ?
Even if this is not carried out, the FSF should make a public apology over this unfortunate incident.
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:4, Informative)
Maybe the part of the article you conveniently left out is relevant:
We want as many people as possible to book slots this Friday and Saturday. Why not book more than one? Having lots of slots booked will get Apple's attention and ensure that the Geniuses have done their homework.
That's their emphasis, not mine. How'd you miss that quote if you got the other one?
They might as well chain themselves together in front of Apple Stores to block access, except that wouldn't be as annoying.
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:5, Insightful)
That's just like PETA members standing in front of the local supermarket's deli counter, yelling and cussing at people who dare buy dead animal parts. It's going to make people remember them, but not in a positive way.
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:4, Funny)
I think this works very well to get the FSF's message across. Of course, this only holds true if the message is "The Free Software Foundation is a horde of trolls".
I think you meant "a Hurd of trolls"...
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:5, Interesting)
Send them an email saying you will no longer donate while such campaigns are run. I did.
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:4, Interesting)
The FSF (Score:5, Interesting)
needs to learn that there is a difference between being a revolutionary and just being really annoying.
One changes the world, the other just makes people hate you. They seem to be in the camp of people that think that as long as people hate you, you must be doing something right.
Re:The FSF (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't know.. I remember when they organized a "DOS Attack" by flooding Microsofts customer service lines to register complaints with their CSR's.
That seemed to get the proverbial nod of approval from many in this community.
Re:The FSF (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, let's see...
* OSX' core (Darwin) is actually open source. The NT core (last I checked) is not.
* There's a huge diff between (basically) racking up phone time w/ script-drones to register valid complaints from folks who were more often than not actual consumers of MSFT's products -- and crap-flooding real tech-support folks' time (as opposed to simple script-drones) by people who more often than not don't own a Mac.
* Since when was Apple ever convicted (or even credibly accused) of abusive monopolistic practices?
While it would be hella nice if Apple got around to open-sourcing Aqua and all, at least they've open-sourced the core of OSX, they publish all of their API's (and go way out of their way to help you through 'em if you get lost in there), and have actually been instrumental in helping to break the whole media DRM bullshit in the first place (as in, if Jobs' hadn't pushed for and got DRM-free music and video concessions from the RI/MPAA cartels, when do you all think that would've have actually had any hope of occurring?)
And yeah, it sucks that they go out and sue the occasional company who installs OSX on a non-Apple box... yet they don't ever bother the hobbyists who do it in far larger numbers.
I'm not trying to paint Apple as being in league with angels or anything, but on the relative evilness scale, they're pretty damned low compared to their competitors, y'know?
For Small Values of "Long" (Score:5, Informative)
Er, you might want to check that. Darwin hasn't been open source in a long time.
Yeah, not since OS X version 10.5.4 ...
Oh wait, that's the current version.
The source, PPC and Intel (gasp! that's unpossible!) for Darwin can be found at Apple - Darwin - Releases [apple.com]
Perhaps you just need a bit more practice with this new "Google" thing. I'm sure you would have found it on your next search.
SteveM
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:5, Insightful)
And do you know what is probably even less cool? The fact that the individuals who are trying to initiate this stunt probably have no intention of showing up at the genius bars themselves...
I'd be curious to find out whether the author of this article (or any of it's backers at the FSF) actually intend on showing up, or if the plan merely involves their zealots who would rather disrupt an business rather than lend their time to something more productive like charity.
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, this is a demonstration that there really is no such thing as a free lunch. Sure, the software is free to use, but the cost of it is a bizarre ideological movement that pulls stunts like this, interfering with people's ability to actually get some use out of their computers.
GNU/FSF were fun and useful about 15 years ago, when free software was generally about coders using and sharing each others code. Unfortunately, I think success has spoiled the movement. I'd rather just pay for my software and avoid all the political crap.
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:5, Insightful)
I can imagine the withering looks that any of my non-geek friends / family would give the people who are holding up their trip to the genius bar. "Couldn't you do something useful like volunteer at a women's shelter? Maybe donate some time to your community bike shop?"
Seriously, this is like crowding the checkout lines in the grocery store to protest cigarette sales. The FSF isn't going to make friends or influence people.
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:4, Insightful)
If you're an organization designed to affect change and shake-up the status quo, and nobody hates you, you're not doing your job.
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:4, Interesting)
Why does it seem evident? Why must I like or dislike Apple any more or less than I dislike Dell or HP? The only difference is that for most Apple supporters any kind of disagreement with Apple is some sort of grave offence only explained with some supposed hate for their brand. Apple to me is nothing more and nothing less than a logo on a piece of plastic, and the thing that matters to me is their policy on DRM and others.
I would find it funny if they did this to Microsoft sure,
Here you have it then. I don't like or dislike Apple any more or less than I like or dislike Microsoft. Actually I'm lying - in general I think that Microsoft always was a bigger danger, and as such it has been the target of *countless* campaigns, from the FSF and others. It seems however that when complaining about Apple suddenly it's a matter of "hate" and other rules apply.
If the FSF thinks that all software should be free then they are morons
That's what the FSF *has always said*, and if anything they are quite vocal about it. I find it interesting that Apple users feel so threatened by that, it's not like they are not using a proprietary operating system. This situation however is solely about DRM - the DRM that smells bad when made by others but suddenly smells like roses when used and propagated by Apple.
This isn't just a "not great" strategy, it is going to waste a lot of people's time.
There are a lot of things in life that waste peoples time. Like trying to get the MS Windows reimbursement when it is bundled. The sheer amount of hours that it takes means that some other poor users have to wait in queue to get support. Does this mean that I should just pay and shut up? I don't think so. Sometimes it is not only inevitable to be inconvenient, it's necessary.
and I'm sorry if you somehow feel your self worth should be lower because you don't have a Mac
I get the humour, although I must say that 1) I have a MacBook in the household and 2) I find it almost comical the projection that Apple users make about "self-worth", like anybody but them actually cares about their brand. Actually, it's part of the lack of substance that I've seen in this threads: no answer to the actual points and questions addressed to the "Genius" about DRM, just a lot of posturing about "self-worth". I must confess that Apple in itself - and Apple users - are indifferent to me... one is a brand, the others are users of proprietary UNIX OS. Nothing more, nothing less.
I do however like that my system has a lot of the security benefits of a Linux based system
That's great. Use it then. The discussion never was about why people like OSX. Windows users have just as valid reasons to use is, as do Linux and BSD users. Nothing new, nothing different. I certainly have nothing against it - it seems like a decent OS to use, but my opinion is irrelevant.
It looks to me however that Apple users like to think of themselves as something other than users of a specific proprietary OS and get nervous when confronted with the fact Apple *is* using and propagating DRM. If, as you said, there is nothing wrong with it, I don't get the defensiveness and lack of addressing of the actual complaints and the side-tracking of the debate to how great OSX is and how Apple has the right to do foo and bar (Apple users in general talk a lot about the rights that Apple has, including being great defenders of EULAs and the like).
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:4, Insightful)
The important factor is who hates you. You want those with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo to hate you. You don't want moderates with no particular view that you are trying to woo to hate you.
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:5, Funny)
The first 10 minutes is the tire, the other 20 is spite.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
>Apple Geniuses are hourly employees who work in shopping malls.
I'm surprised so many people with 140+ IQ can't do better.
Re:doesn't it "just work"? (Score:5, Interesting)
Moreover, Apple is one of the few companies where you can actually talk to one of their tech support people face-to-face. This as opposed to Dell or HP, where you typically wait on hold for two hours while your call is transferred to Bangladesh.
Apple "Genuis Bar" is the sort of support system we should be ENCOURAGING.
Re:doesn't it "just work"? (Score:5, Informative)
No, the Geniuses aren't customer service, they're tech support (usually high-level tech support at that, with loads of certifications of every piece of hardware Apple has made in the past 10 years). Granted, they *do* deal with customer service issues but they will put those off to customer service specialists over the phone if it takes longer than a few minutes to resolve because that isn't their area of extensive training.
I only offer this correction because (probably like most people) I assumed anyone physically working in a retail space would be pretty low-level, with the occasional fluke of someone overqualified. I was pretty surprised to find out just how much training and technical experience the typical Apple Genius has.
Re:Mean-spirited? (Score:4, Interesting)
Are there any licences that provide the same kind of stuff without linking me to them, or should I just change the name of the GPL when I licence my software?
Certainly. Have a browse through http://www.opensource.org/licenses/category [opensource.org]. I suggest using the Microsoft Reciprocal License [opensource.org] (basically equivalent to the LGPL, and perfectly GPL-compatible), just to piss off the FSF...
Re:Sit In (Score:5, Interesting)
The people are sort of stuck here. Before most businesses we dealt with every day were large corporations, there could be a fairly equal exchange of ideas between customers and proprietors. A concerned community could make itself heard to businesses that affected it. Apple is a large corporation. They'll spend a lot of advertising money to talk at you in a way that sort of feels personal ("Hey, here's a company that understands me!"), but is limited in substantial message to, "Buy our shit, K?" They even go beyond what most companies do and hire a bunch of people to sit in stores and do face-to-face tech support, which means they're listening to customers, though in a somewhat limited way.
The only people that have DIRECT CONTROL over Apple's business practices are high up in the company. They talk a lot, but it's hard to make them listen. If you can tie up all the "genius bars" for a day, that might actually make someone notice. It would be pretty hard to do, but if you did, it might at least be acknowledged by someone with DIRECT CONTROL. It might also get noticed by the mainstream media, who would make some ham-fisted attempt to understand what the fuck it is that the FSF was talking about, and might even report on it, leading reasonable folk to wonder, "What was that clueless reporter blathering about," and look up the real info themselves.
Furthermore, as far as the analogy goes, every waiter at those white-only restaurants didn't have DIRECT CONTROL over anything. They probably were upset they weren't going to make any tip money. And I bet plenty of the would-be customers DID NOT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT EQUALITY, or maybe were even hostile to the cause. The magnitude of what the FSF is concerned with is not as great as the magnitude of what the civil-rights movement did. But some problems really do deserve more press. The recent Microsoft and Yahoo DRM expiration issues point out what a fundamental problem DRM is; a lot of people that use DRM-laden media every day don't understand that their very use of those files is at the whim of a corporation, and that they have no good reason to believe that those files will remain playable perpetually, or that they'll be able to find convenient portable devices to play those files perpetually.
As far as I'm concerned if the FSF can book a significant amount of "genius bar" time, more power to 'em. If they can make a big corporation listen to them even for a little while, that's a step. Almost any message coming from a position of principle, reason, and understanding (an anti-DRM stance is certainly one) is more important than a day's worth of "productivity" for Apple and its customers.
This is why they will never be taken seriously (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is why they will never be taken seriously (Score:4, Interesting)
The free software movement has never been very good at PR/communication. It's really a testament to the strength of the idea, that it has made the progress it has.
No offense, but it is as though the whole movement has Aspergers syndrome, in the sense that they have zero intuitive understanding of how they will be perceived.
Adsperger... (Score:5, Funny)
Adsperger (n): Someone who advertises or engages in publicity without any understanding of how the ads will be perceived.
Adspergize (v, transitive.): To alienate a readership through poor understanding of their response.
Adsperg (n): An advert that annoys the reader not from deliberate intent, but from an inability to understand the likely range of responses to the ad.
To a lesser extent, we all act in a similar manner at times, being offensive in public. This post could well annoy people with Aspergers Syndrome. Well, I can be an insensitive clod at times, and do suspect I have a touch of AS.
Oh well. "For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbours, and laugh at them in our turn." Welcome to slashdot.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Hah, no. I have AS and I found your post funny as fuck. Certainly can imagine a few decent uses for "adsperger", where companies have grossly failed to comprehend who their market are and fucked up in that vein. McDonalds' advertising a burger with "I'd hit that" a while back springs to mind.
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:This is why they will never be taken seriously (Score:5, Insightful)
Demanding Linux be called GNU/Linux even makes linux users not like the FSF very much.
A line from Microsoft used against Oracle and Netscape during the anti trust trials was that their competitors needs to stop whining to the government and start innovating.
So the FSF should shut up and stop whinning and create great software.
Nerds and business users use what is the best and not because of its philosophy. Apple has the better mouse trap and its an expensive one at that. Xorg needs to start from scratch and create the features of aqua and software needs to follow the Opendesktop standard like what Ubuntu is trying to do. But I doubt it will work that well considering how entrenched consumers are with win32 based apps.
Re:This is why they will never be taken seriously (Score:4, Interesting)
RMS has a decent point there.
To me the name really isn't that important. What is important is giving credit where credit is due. I've had people tell me straight faced that Linus Torvalds wrote the entire "Linux Operating System" all the way from the kernel to gcc to bash. This is obviously wrong, and such misinformation comes from lazy journalists and editors who play fast and loose with the facts.
Call the operating system whatever you want, but when I read in articles that "Linus Torvalds created the Linux operating system" I cringe a bit. He arguably popularized it more than anyone else, and he created a very important part of it, but he didn't create it any more than Goodyear created my car.
Re:This is why they will never be taken seriously (Score:4, Insightful)
So, we should call it GNU/Linux/Qt/KDE/MoFo/OOo? Because the office suite, desktop environment, UI toolkit, and web browser is probably much more visible to the user than the GNU utilities, and arguably just as important.
Re:This is why they will never be taken seriously (Score:5, Insightful)
Advertising on their website has not worked. For years, it hasn't worked.
Going from "no one notices" to "everyone hates you" can't be bad -- it's worth a shot, anyway.
Re:This is why they will never be taken seriously (Score:4, Funny)
When was the last time you heard someone say "Wow, PETA's right! I'm going vegan!"?
PETA show pictures of gorgeous women with no clothes on. Now, if the FSF did similar things with pictures of RMS etc, they might stand a chance.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I could understand the opposition if apple was actively violating the GPL. But they are not violating the GPL in any way!
Not anymore, but not for lack of trying.
It is the customer's choice to agree to the terms of the apple licenses.
Customer choice is what brought us the Microsoft monopoly.
I was seriously considering becoming a card carrying member of the fsf in the last few months but now I am not interested in being associated with immature fools that would condone this irrelevant and useless tirade.
I hav
Re:This is why they will never be taken seriously (Score:4, Interesting)
Not anymore, but not for lack of trying.
This is the proverbial me telling people your sister is a dirty wore, and letting you prove that you don't actually have a sister. Would you care to give a few examples of Apple trying to violate GPL?
Re:This is why they will never be taken seriously (Score:4, Interesting)
Seriously? That's your smoking gun? A completely separate company (as it was then), over fifteen years ago tried and failed to do something that you remember a bit vaguely and don't provide any substantiation for.
And further - that Jobs (as the CEO of NeXT and now of Apple) has nurtured a deep desire to try again, and he's just biding his time until he strikes. Like some evil super-villain in a cartoon.
It's hard to believe someone would stretch that far, but there you go! It's impressive stuff. Not grounded in sanity perhaps, but impressive nonetheless.
> It is the customer's choice to agree to the terms of the apple licenses.
Customer choice is what brought us the Microsoft monopoly.
Is your point here that people should not have the freedom to make choices you personally disagree with, or that you don't trust people to make choices? I'm not sure why it's relevant either, except as a snide non-sequitur.
Here's what they will accomplish: (Score:5, Insightful)
(1) Interfere with people who need tech support.
(2) Piss off Apple customers and turn them away from F/OSS.
(3) Absolutely no change in Apple policy.
I'm glad to use F/OSS on my Mac, including a great deal of software produced under the FSF umbrella, and I have released software, developed on the Mac, under the GPL. The success of OS X has created a huge new market for those who develop on Unix-type systems. Braindead stunts like this really don't help.
Re:Here's what they will accomplish: (Score:5, Insightful)
No kidding. This reminds me when those Truth ad people who go to some quiet neighborhood with a megaphone and make loud obnoxious asses of themselves in the middle of the night. Because one of the houses, supposedly, was owned by someone who made money from tobacco. Michael Moore uses this tactic all the time, also-- you can't talk to the CEO of the company, just harass their receptionist and security guys. Great thinking, there.
Re:Here's what they will accomplish: (Score:4, Insightful)
I think people's tolerance for being an asshole rises quickly when you do it in the name of the masses. People like Mike Moore because they think he's standing up for them because he puts on a very "common man" facade. And that's what really sucks about all of it. If it's bullshit when XYZ fucks around and annoys people it would be bullshit for anyone.
Re:Here's what they will accomplish: (Score:5, Insightful)
I disagree -- it'll make it clearer to Apple executives that open source people are ungrateful jerks who should be ignored at least, and possibly actively campaigned against.
I can find plenty of fault with Apple's open source policies... but they do have some, and they have made some pretty significant offerings. Yes, they could do more, and I'm sure there are plenty of Apple engineers who argue for that every day.
And those arguments get a lot harder to make with stunts like this.
Re:sounds good to me (Score:5, Insightful)
does that mean that Apple customers will stop buying Apple? Good!
If you're a Microsoft fanboy, then I have nothing to say to you.
If you're a UNIX/Linux supporter, however, you need to realize how important Apple has been to you. By maintaining a just-large-enough marketshare during the past two decades, Apple has kept alive the idea in the general public that Windows isn't the only possible operating system, keeping the door openn for Linux. Every ad for MacOS is also an ad for "not Windows" and therefore an ad (in part) for Linux and Unix, an ad which the Linux/UNIX community can't afford to run by itself. Everytime a group of Apple fans force a company to support a second operating system in their organization, they make it easier for Linux users to force them to support three.
Apple products aren't perfect, but they are good enough to hold off the behemoth, and that's been worth something.
Re:Here's what they will accomplish: (Score:4, Funny)
>It's just that everything about Apple's approach
>to marketing their products creeps me out and
>causes me to experience an anxious nausea whenever
>I come into contact with their products or with
>dedicated users of their products.
Yes, your first contact with good looking people that actually bathe and exercise may leave you disoriented.
Re:Here's what they will accomplish: (Score:5, Insightful)
I admit that the problem is mine and not Apple's. It's just that everything about Apple's approach to marketing their products creeps me out and causes me to experience an anxious nausea whenever I come into contact with their products or with dedicated users of their products. It's hard to bask in the cultural phenomenon that is Apple when you're nauseous.
I love how you hate these Apple fanboys yet you are equally irrationally against them. Why not just chill out? If you don't like a company, then don't buy their stuff. Don't make up a load of bullshit about how you feel nauseous when you see them (if you don't realise that's bullshit then you don't understand what nauseous means).
Whatever (Score:5, Insightful)
I would go through the education route - educate people why buying from Apple/Microsoft is bad. Also would teach about the differences of open and proprietary software etc.
Best way to deal with the proprietary companies is by the bottom line of the companies not interfering with individual rights.
DoSing is OK now? (Score:4, Insightful)
Will the FSF complain when Apple releases a software update that makes every Apple machine hit the FSF servers every couple of minutes?
I mean, if you're going to start a DDoS fight, don't complain when someone steps up and gives you the same treatment.
Re:DoSing is OK now? (Score:4, Insightful)
This is just like any protest. You'll get tons of people defending "freedom" of protesters to deny freedom to other people.
If your software is really FREE, then why shouldn't Apple be FREE to say no to it without any consequences?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:DoSing is OK now? (Score:4, Interesting)
You call this activism? I call it harrasment, immoral, and unethical. I call it rude and stupid.
I like the way you have a double standard for DoS. It is OK in meatspace but wrong in cyberspace.
Maybe Apple should send out an email or just post on their website how the FSF decided to hurt Apple's customers and ask that people not support the FSF in any way.
Brilliant (Score:5, Insightful)
Waste the time of large numbers of people who have nothing to do with making decisions for Apple, and also the time of those people who actually need help with their Apple equipment.
That'll win hearts and minds for sure.
As a mac using free software supporter... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm appalled that the FSF could resort to such negative tactics.
They need to be setting a good example if they are to have any chance of convincing people of the importance of free software. This just plays straight into the hands of those that wish to paint free software advocates as over-idealistic zealots with no concern for practicality -- the exact opposite of what a group like the FSF should be doing.
IRL trolls FTL (Score:5, Insightful)
While trolling online can be entertaining, trolling IRL sucks. The guys working at these places are probably just trying to get by in this world - they have nothing to do with Apple's corporate decisions. They don't need this kind of harassment. And while they don't need that kind of harassment, the other people who are locked out of actually getting, you know, actual legitimate support REALLY won't appreciate this move - if anything, it'll make them hate the FSF.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That's a BS excuse, which is used all too often.
Lawyers working for the RIAA/MPAA are just trying to pay their mortgages as well. That doesn't make them innocent bystanders. Ditto for lobbyists for the tobacco industry, oil companies, etc., etc.
First, they're guilty in some small part, because they get paid by the company. Having an unimportant job doesn't clear you
DOS attacks? What on earth? (Score:5, Insightful)
In the past I've supported the FSF. This is not what I expect from such an organization.
Denial of Service attacks (of any kind) should not be perpetrated by honorable people. Does this have the general support of the FSF? What the hell do they think they are playing at?
Shut Up and Make Something Better (Score:5, Insightful)
Want to make Apple irrelevant?
It's fucking simple.
Make something better. Something that users want to use more than Apple products.
DOS attacks on genius bars is pretty infantile. And certainly won't endear the FSF to the people they are trying to reach.
Maybe FSJ was right, they are freetards.
SteveM
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"Want to make Apple irrelevant?
It's fucking simple.
Make something better. Something that users want to use more than Apple products. "
1. Linux is better than Windows
2. ?????
3. No profit?!
Hey, it doesn't work! Because the better things aren't always the most popular things. That's reality, tough shit.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
There are many tasks (and segments of the population) for which Linux is not better than Windows. So you haven't hit condition one there, yet.
Re:Shut Up and Make Something Better (Score:5, Insightful)
It doesn't work because #1 is false for most people.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Linux certainly is not better than Windows in the "users want to use it" department, as Linux is still substantially more difficult to use.
For the things that Linux is better at, such as embedded systems, servers, number crunching, etc., Linux tends to do much better than Windows.
In any case, spamming Apple users isn't the way to go. These people deserve the same punishment that e-mail spammers deserve: summary execution.
Re:Shut Up and Make Something Better (Score:4, Insightful)
free software already does make something better, and apple is using it.
You're making exactly the right point here, although I know you didn't intend it that way.
I used to be a debian user, I really strongly supported GNU and Stallman's ideas on software. Today I'm an apple customer, and run OS X.
The most important aspect of software freedom is the freedom to use it the way you want to. I still agree with that notion completely. And the way I want to use software is "smoothly, with minimal administration, and minimal interruption". Apple may build their stuff based on the same open source code, but they go the extra mile to tie things together so I no longer have to. Apple's products save me time and effort.
I detest apple's corporate practices. They're a pretty big incentive to go back to linux. But if I need to trade time to get software freedom, which was my experience when I ran linux, then I'm merely exchanging one task master for another. The ultimate freedom is the choice of how we spend our time. Take away that choice, and you take away my freedom.
Geniuses are not Company Spokesmen (Score:4, Interesting)
Having previously worked at an Apple Store several years back (and even if I hadn't). I can tell you most people will probably get a "I'm sorry I can not answer that question. Please call corporate to get answers to your question."
Unless Apple has noticed this and given an internal memo of detailed responses to give out, this is the response you will get even from a store manager or supervisor.
Some geniuses may actually give you their own personal view on things but they wont represent Apple, nor will Apple necessarily stand behind said responses.
The only benefit of this is perhaps making more Apple customers aware of what the issues are, if they happen to overhear the conversation.
If you will be participating in this, I'd recommend staying polite. Being a stuck up customer trying to stick it to the man via a part-time, full-time non-corporate employee is not going to win you many friends or make people willing to listen to your cause.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The assholes doing this don't care about that. They think they will impress Apple by wasting time and money. They think they will influence Apple's customers and bring the customers to their side.
Basically, the people doing this are self-righteous, arrogant, stupid assholes.
And, unlike so many who support them, and some of those who oppose them, I am willing to stand behind my words because I am not a coward, anonymous or otherwise.
For the Nth time... (Score:5, Informative)
Apple does NOT [gornall.net] (repeat that, NOT [gornall.net]) prevent people from developing open-source applications. The FSF's rant was just that, an uninformed screed directed at a company that doesn't play ball with the FSF's politics.
Proof: Read the first link. I downloaded some source from the 'net, I compiled it, I modified it and compiled it again, then I installed it on my phone and it works just fine.
I had an email exchange with the author of the FSF's rant, and pointed out his errors. I think he and I still disagree, but to not even acknowledge the possibility that FOSS s/w is just fine and peachy on the iphone is intellectually dishonest. Not that that will stop the crazies from apple-hating... [sigh]
Simon
Re:For the Nth time... (Score:5, Insightful)
Crap like this stunt are what make it difficult to have any kind of serious discussion of the merits and drawbacks of using open source software without being branded a Luinix Zealot. Seriously, if you're going to advocate freedom you should at least understand what the word means. It shouldn't mean that everyone is required to produce and use exclusively modifiable software. It should mean that everyone has the right to choose the best software for their intended outcome.
For example, there are Linux distributions which don't carry any kind of closed-source or proprietary software in their package managers. I respond to that by choosing not to use those distributions. I don't campaign vehemently against them and ignore other possibilities. Right now I'm on Windows because it works for me and what I want to accomplish. The FSF sounds like an organization which would desperately like me to not be free to choose Windows. I tried Ubuntu, and it just wasn't my thing.
Can these zealots at least acknowledge that it's possible for more than one opinion to exist in the world?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
No, you're talking about conditions that don't affect the freedom of the software.
Apple isn't required to supply what you demand, just the same as you're not required to purchase what Apple offers.
Sorry if the real world intruding on your fantasy is painful, but suck it up, you'll get over it.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Yes. Nothing in the procedure I outline in the links requires a jail-broken phone. Everything there is an approved method of installing software onto the phones as recommended by Apple.
Simon.
At least they're consistent (Score:3, Insightful)
Most of the /. crowd isn't really into free software, they just hate Microsoft. So it's funny watching the responses to this.
Way to bite a hand that feeds you FSF. (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm getting really tired of people bashing apple as "locked down" with DRM.
Last time I checked, it was the other guy who spent upwards of a decade re-engineering their entire os with the specific purpose of DRM, causing massive GFX and audio card driver instability and feature stripping which goes on to this day.. but back on topic here: apple isn't "locked down".
Their kernel is OSS, they allow the development of third party "haxies" for their OS and official apps (see chax, synergy, etc), and their unix based system serves as a large "main-stream" market for many products which would otherwise have a much smaller user base.
This is the reason why I use osx.. it combines the benefits of OSS with the benefits of proprietary, while retaining very few of the drawbacks.
What will actually happen (Score:4, Funny)
Genius: do you own an Apple Product?
Moron: uh, um, no.
Genius: Next!
or
Genius: do you own an Apple Product?
Moron: yes, here's my iPhone 3G. Why don't you guys support XYZ
Genius: Use the source, put your app on the AppStore
Actually read the text of the email... (Score:5, Interesting)
A link [defectivebydesign.org] that I got in my email, to the full text of what the FSF is doing here.
From TFA:
Because this is the only way to get the entertainment industry to agree to allow its content to be distributed as openly as it has with Apple, and because Apple wants to make sure it makes money.
From the link:
Jobs is the largest individual shareholder at Disney, and he could insist that its films be DRM-free.
From TFA:
As to the third question, no one cares where you go. Get over it.
Anyone who believes this, where are you right now? Boxers or briefs? How long is your penis / how big are your tits?
If you feel uncomfortable sharing these details with me, keep in mind, you at least have some idea [slashdot.org] who I am. You have no idea who's tracking you at Apple or AT&T.
What's the recourse if this douche is wrong?
The fourth question? It's not a question. At least put a question mark at the end to pretend.
That's only because you didn't read the whole question. Again, from the FSF:
If Jobs really wants to see open formats, why doesn't the iPhone play Ogg Vorbis, Ogg Theora video and FLAC?
Anyone who says "because it would cost money" is a moron. All of these formats have free implementations -- in fact, as far as I know, all of them have free, patent-free, royalty-free, and MIT license at worst, which means if iTunes is at all pluggable, it should take one engineer maybe two hours to add support for them, if that.
I think this is kind of an extreme action, and I can't really support it. But then, maybe extreme actions are exactly what's needed. (And maybe that's just Dark Knight rubbing off on me.)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Nothing takes âoeone engineer maybe two hoursâ to add support for. Software engineering in a professional environment just doesn't work that way.
Moreover, Ogg Vorbis, Ogg Theora and FLAC are uncharted waters: if anybody was going to decide that, actually, maybe one of them DOES infringe on a patent or two, who better to target than Apple? Go after the one with the deepest pockets. With MP3, MP4 and Apple's own CODECs, they know pretty much exactly where they stand.
Perhaps they could dispatch Apple
Ogg and FLAC (Score:4, Insightful)
Anyone who says "because it would cost money" is a moron. All of these formats have free implementations -- in fact, as far as I know, all of them have free, patent-free, royalty-free, and MIT license at worst, which means if iTunes is at all pluggable, it should take one engineer maybe two hours to add support for them, if that.
The question you need to ask, is what does Apple gain by supporting these formats? That is, how many more iPods/iPhones will Apple sell if they add support for Ogg or FLAC?
A very strong argument could be made that the incremental increase in iPod sales would be vanishingly small. (Both the iPod and the iPhone seem to be selling ok without them.)
So Apple gets no real increase in sales while at the same time having to write and maintain the code to support them. And, call me a moron, but that does cost money.
SteveM
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Others have already pointed out the flaw in that reasoning.
But you haven't addressed the main issue. There is no appreciable value to Apple in adding support for these formats.
None.
Apple is selling plenty of iPods without Ogg or FLAC.
Apple is selling every iPhone they can make. Again without Ogg or FLAC.
So I ask again, other then having RMS say nice things about the company, what benefit does Apple derive from supporting Ogg and-or FLAC?
SteveM
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Microsoft Irrelevant? Hardly... (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft "irrelevant"? Those are odd words for a company that still maintains a 90% operating system market share, an equivalent market share percentage for office and productivity software, and what was (till a few weeks ago) the top selling current-gen video game console in the United States.
And that's not counting Microsoft Exchange Server, SQL Server, their development platforms such as Visual Studio and a host of other profitable and well known product lines.
I agree that some of their attempts at breaking into new markets (see Zune, Windows Mobile, Live) have been failures or mixed successes at best, but to regard MSFT as "irrelevant" because headlines about them are not plastering your favorite blogs seems to demonstrate a high disregard for the facts.
utter douchebaggery (Score:3, Insightful)
What a brilliantly-conceived suicidal PR campaign. I can't wait until clang/llvm reaches the point where Apple can kick the FSF's stagnant compiler to the curb. Cut that weed off at the roots.
PETA (Score:3, Insightful)
FSF = "Foot-Shooting Fools" (Score:3, Insightful)
I want a statement from the FSF (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously. I hereby challenge a representative of the FSF foundation to speak up and tell us if any of the money donated to them has gone to this 'project'. I've donated money to them in the past, but if they think trying to block Apple's customers from getting tech support is helping... well they can do it without my contributions from now on. I donate so that they can help out with lawsuits regarding consumer freedom, not so they can create frustration and suffering among people who just want somebody to diagnose a problem with their laptop.
Congratulations guys. You'll be getting not a cent more from me until it is clear that the money won't be wasted on this kind of asshattery.
Anti-Trust Violation (Score:5, Insightful)
Folks,
If you really care about the FSF, you would shut down this project NOW. IANAL, but I am a former anti-trust economist. It is one thing to conduct a protest (such as a picket line) against the policies or actions of a company; it is another thing entirely to interfere with the business of a company (see "illegal restraint of trade"). A court will come down *hard* on the FSF for sponsoring a DOS action on the Genius Bars. The FSF could be fined, enjoined against actions, or both. In addition, the staff of the FSF and individual participants can be fined or jailed. The money that it will cost to defend the FSF against the lawsuits could be better spent on more useful causes. While Apple's lawyers are not the Nazgul, they are not far off the mark either and Apple has shown itself to be willing and able to use them.
Besides, even if consumers are turned off to Apple, where will they go? WinCE? Symbian? PalmOS? Zune?Are *any* of those better? Get real.
For crying out loud folks, this is a true freetard idea at its worst -- an action against a company that alienates the intended audience, accomplishes nothing, and makes the protesters look like unreasonable, wild-eyed radicals.
--Paul
Oh yeah, that's brilliant... (Score:4, Insightful)
Hey, I have a great idea! Let's protest the fact that a computer company makes computers and software that doesn't fit our ideology by crowding their stores, pissing off a bunch of employees who are paid to answer tech support questions instead of discussing politics, and making customers who need support miserable. That attention will really help us make software free - they'll all quake in fear because of us!
As much as I admire the goal of Free Software and like the tools produced under both Open Source and Free Software terms, that's just plain stupid. What a bunch of douches.
Apple DoS on FSF (Score:5, Funny)
All it takes is...
FSF: "You have bad policies!!!"
Apple: "Please leave the store."
FSF: "No! You have bad policies!!!"
[Apple guy calls security - they show up 3 minutes later]
Security: "You are coming with us."
FSF: "Fine. I'll leave."
Security: "You don't have the freedom of that option. The police are on their way to arrest you for being a public nuisance."
FSF: "Can I call my mom?"
THE END
Re:Apple DoS on FSF (Score:5, Funny)
Don't taze me, bro!
A few responses (Score:3, Informative)
It's absolutely right that people should be polite, and we emphasized that in the handout and instructions we wrote for this. Being a jerk to someone just showing up to work after a late night at the bar doesn't help anyone. And many of the Geniuses are probably at least sympathetic to us, and they probably think the Genius name is pretty funny too -- everyone has to make a living.
Our goal is to communicate a message to Apple, and we use the communications channels that Apple has provided in order to do this. It's interesting that people criticize making life difficult for the employees when we are doing something that disagrees with Apple, but not of the pro-Apple crowd. What about the 500 people waiting outside to get in when the new store opened? I bet that "made life difficult" for the employees too. Besides, isn't a day full of conversations about DRM going to be a pretty easy day for the Geniuses? They don't have to debug anything, or deal with people who are furious about not knowing how to use their computer, or about some legitimate data loss :).
Organizations and companies are set up to deflect and channel criticism. If we don't use the tools we have -- our voices, our dollars, and our ability to organize with others -- nothing will ever get changed. Organizing a concerted effort to deliver a direct message in a respectful but firm way seems like something consumers are supposed to do when they don't like what a big company is doing. I'm honestly interested to hear all the alternative suggestions out there for communicating this message to Apple. We can't just send letters to generic customer service addresses and wait quietly. We can't just stop buying Apple products but not say why. I think we're past that point -- Apple said they agreed with us a year and a half ago and yet now they are pushing more DRM than ever.
As for taking time away from Apple customers who need tech support, that is indeed regrettable but it's also inevitable. Time is a zero-sum game and Apple only has so much of it. Any customer going to the store takes time away from another. The 500 people waiting outside the store stopped me from getting in to have the conversation I wanted to have too. The question is, who is responsible for this? If Apple stuck to what they said they were going to do about DRM, or if they spent a little more money on their support services and some executives took a slight pay cut, this wouldn't be an issue. Pointing the finger at people using the option as provided to ask salient questions about the way Apple technology functions of Apple employees tasked with answering these questions is not the right answer.
So, yes -- we hope and expect that everyone will be polite, but firm. I am sorry for the inconvenience caused to other customers but in consolation I can offer the statement that if we succeed, there will be far fewer agonizing and annoying DRM-induced computer catastrophes for all of us to deal with.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Jesus H Christ.
I had thought this was just a splinter group deciding to go it alone. I had thought that sanity would prevail, and that the FSF would step in and say "Sorry, we made a mistake". I hadn't for one minute considered that the FSF would simply abandon the moral high ground and deliberately go out of their way to harass Apple's customers like this.
But John Sullivan (Hi John!) is the manager of operations at the FSF. I now have to assume this is an official policy of the FSF, and an indicator of how
Targeting *apple*? (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, Apple's imperfect, it shares the problems of any big software company (and they ARE a software company, they wouldn't be selling all those Macs if they were running Vista), but it's bent over backwards for the open source community... even when its openness made it a target, even when it's been attacked by extreme members of the community.
The iPhone is a nice phone, but that's all it is. A nice phone. It's not the next big platform (look to Android or maybe OpenMoko for that). It's not an open source development platform, but neither are most cellphones.
Ten points of hippie-cred, dudes, but this smells more of Altamont than Woodstock to me.
Some misinformation (Score:3, Informative)
First, there is this statement that Richard Stallmen is "not interested" in freedom for users of remote web services. The truth is much simpler. For a long time, there was valid concern that the ability to effectively utilize existing law to sustain such a license was perhaps weaker than the use of copyleft in more direct and traditional linking and code reuse scenarios. However, this did not stop the FSF (and Richard) from producing and endorsing the GNU Affero General Public License, which does try to address this very issue:
http://www.techspot.com/news/27937-Free-Software-Foundation-releases-GPL-for-web-services.html
The broader question of the FSF this addresses is the use of direct action. Sometimes direct action campaigns can be ugly to some. I happen to personally believe strongly in direct action activism. Often direct action campaigns are NECESSARY because conditions offer no other alternative, whether we speak about what used to be political freedom in this "thing" called America, or we speak about traditional technical and social freedoms, all of which are under fundamental assault.
Is this particular campaign a form of direct activism? If so, is it an effective one? These to me are the more important questions to consider.
Re:This is harassment (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
this is blatant harassment and possibly borderline terrorism.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Re:This is harassment (Score:5, Insightful)
If you can't tell which word is being used improperly in the above sentence, then having it explained to you won't help.
Re:This is harassment (Score:4, Funny)
Perhaps when the original poster correctly quotes ``A Prince's Bride" then perhaps they'll be taken seriously.
Swing and a miss.
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
It took Android and the jailbreak community to force their hand, make them admit that a web browser was not an SDK.
That's a wild & unsupported claim. A much simpler hypothesis is that the SDK wasn't ready to ship, the App Store wasn't ready to go live, and the browser was just used to placate developers and buy some time.
Your interpretation may make the jailbreak community feel great about themselves, but it fails the law of parsimony, don't you think?
(Occam's Razor) [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)