New Dell Laptops Give Users a Literal Shock 383
An anonymous reader writes "According to CNET.co.uk, certain new Dell laptops with a brushed-aluminum finish are giving users more than they bargained for. 'We know this because several CNET staff were hit with an electrical charge while using Dell's new XPS M1530 — and we're not the only ones. Dell's forums are littered with user complaints about the shocking experiences they've had with some systems. The problem only seems to occur in Dell laptops that have a brushed-aluminum finish. These include the XPS M1330 and XPS M1530. It's caused by the two-pronged connection between the mains lead and the power adapter, which isn't earthed properly because of its lack of a third pin. The laptop therefore exhibits an electrical potential (voltage) between its exposed metal parts (the brushed aluminum wrist pad) and earth ground. Since there is no earth, the human body basically acts as a wire that can conduct electric current, hence the tingling, jolting sensation.'"
Forget exploding batteries, (Score:5, Funny)
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Actually, on one of my trips to Indonesia I had a similar problem with my (three-prong) Compaq Armada. If I touched any exposed metal on the case, I might (or might not, depending on the circumstances) receive an electric shock.
In that case though the problem was not due to the laptop but rather faulty building wiring. My guess is that either the earth ground was not attached to the wall socket properly or somewhere else a lot of electricity was being
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I didnt check the plug (and that laptop has long-since fallen apart) but that would seem to support an earth-grounded case.
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Re:Forget exploding batteries, (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Forget exploding batteries, (Score:5, Funny)
How is encasing your laptop in a brain supposed to help? Wouldn't it be messy?
Mmm... brain-clad laptop... chewy on the outside, crunchy on the inside!
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Ooh, (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Ooh, (Score:5, Funny)
Happens on Apples Too. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Happens on Apples Too. (Score:5, Funny)
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Technically it's bad design... (Score:5, Interesting)
That said - my acer laptop has a brushed aluminum finish and has the same problem *if* I don't plug it into a grounded wall outlet (as it currently isn't). It doesn't feel so much like a jolt or a tingle, however, as that the surface feels strange.. almost like it's vibrating at a high frequency; but only when touched very, very lightly.. a firm touch increases contact area and away goes that odd feel.
Surprisingly, the metallic finish (probably aluminum as well) on my USB keyboard has the same thing going on.
Again, though, if plugged into a proper outlet, the problem goes away.
It seems fairly common for the housings of low-power (and yes, a laptop is pretty much low power; although a 'jolt' sounds light it might be otherwise.. high performance gaming laptop sucking 150W+ perhaps?) to not be properly insulated, though.. I can probably walk around the house and find a dozen more appliances that exhibit this.
Re:Technically it's bad design... (Score:5, Informative)
Run do not walk away from any situation where this is true. The casing you are touching is not at ground, and you are feeling the 50 or 60 Hz current (that's the high frequency vibration you're feeling) flowing through you. Don't believe me? Next time you experience this, put an AC voltmeter between the pseudo-vibrating chassis and ground. You'll see between 6 and 20 VAC (at least that's the range I've observed). This is the mains current leaking onto the chassis.
There are many reasons for this, but they almost all boil down to poor design of the equipment or inexpert wiring of the mains outlet. Often the fix is to unplug the two-pronged plug and re-plug it in the other way around. This isn't always possible with polarized plugs (which were *supposed* to make this not nearly as much of an issue, but then, that relies upon all outlets being wired correctly and my experience is that only about 80% of them are).
Do not ignore this when you find it. It is a potential danger. If you're in a country where they use 220/240 VAC, it is of particular concern.
MOD PARENT UP (Score:5, Informative)
Also, prolonged contact with (nearly) ANY electrical current that you can feel can become dangerous. While a low voltage won't be able to pass much current through the skin (skin resistance) initially, this situation will change. As voltage flows skin resistance slowly decreases, and can lead to fatal currents if allowed to persist for long enough.
Effects of current through the human body (rough):
0.2 amp - no fibrillation. Severe burning and breathing halted.
0.1 - 0.2 amp is the most dangerous zone, because fibrillation is a faster death and harder to stop than a mere stoppage of the heart as occurs above 0.2 amp.
Skin resistance is about 1kohm for wet skin and 500kohm for dry skin. Internal resistance is 100-500 ohms, so current penetrating the skin is what causes problems. Higher voltages let more current through, so above 240V current easily penetrates the skin. If you touch a wire of 0.02 amps or so your muscles will contract, forcing you to hold onto the wire. Since skin resistance drops over time you will soon find it difficult to breathe and eventually you WILL die.
If you find someone stuck to a wire in this manner, the person WILL die if they are not removed. Do not attempt to touch them uninsulated, since you will likely become stuck yourself. Turn power off, or push them off with a stick or other non-conductive object.
Re:MOD PARENT UP (Score:5, Informative)
Furthermore, if you ABSOLUTELY must touch something with your bare hand without insulation that you suspect may be electrified, DO IT with the BACK of your hand. This way should your muscles contract, at least you won't have made a death grip on the wire.
That being said... Just don't touch stuff you think is electrified.
Re:Technically it's bad design... (Score:4, Informative)
If you are only getting less than 30 volts between the metal case and a true ground, then it is capacitively coupled to the mains hot wire, or capacitively coupled to the transformer primary. If it were fully connected you would get the full line voltage, 100 to 240 volts depending on where you are. The later is extremely dangerous and could result is big electrical arcs and human corpses. The former is very annoying but not an emergency.
No computer should ever be designed to be operated without the earthing wire used to connect to the case to drain off the capacitively coupled voltage. This big reason, though, is not to eliminate that vibration feeling, but rather, to provide a safety path for electricity to go back to ground should a wire break or whatever and accidentally fully charge the case. That would be a quick short circuit and should throw off the circuit breaker.
If the source of the voltage on the case happens to be capacitive coupling in the transformer primary winding, and if the power is plugged into a 240 volt outlet in the USA (which normally uses 120 volts for most things), then you are likely to not get any vibration feeling at all. This is because 240 volts in the USA comes from a pair of 120 volt wires of opposite phasing. The balance between them is effectively 0 volts relative to ground. Power connections this way (both wires are equal but opposite voltage relative to ground) can also eliminate hum from audio equipment that might have that issue.
In any case, if you get a computer with no earthing pin on its AC mains power connection, you should insist that it be replaced (at least the AC adapter part) with one that has the proper connection to earth/ground.
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You've not tried hard enough - try in the bathtub (Score:3, Informative)
I too have a Macbook Pro, and I have felt the tingly sensation of voltage alternating at 60Hz on the outer case. The reason you didn't feel it was that you, yourself, were not grounded and so you didn't complete the circuit. You have to be grounded to the earth ground or the neutral conductor to notice the voltage.
It is common to ground the outer case of electronic devices to the ground of the electronics - that way static discharges to the ca
Re:You've not tried hard enough - try in the batht (Score:4, Funny)
Ah yes, gone are the carefree and reckless days of youth.
Re:I call bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
Hey, fanboy. Stop your drooling for a few seconds and re-read that he said it happens with MacBooks. Not *all* Mac Books. It doesn't happen with *all* individual machines in that Dell (or Toshiba, etc) line, either.
There's nothing magical about the components in an Apple laptop (probably using almost the same damn parts) that makes grounding and electricity work differently.
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PS: It's 'curtain' (pet peeve)
The real question is... (Score:5, Funny)
Better or worse than a 9V battery?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erotic_electrostimulation [wikipedia.org]
Once when I was nine... (Score:5, Funny)
I couldn't tell if the bright white flash/pop that followed came from just in front of my face, or from somewhere inside my head. Painful to say the least.
Can someone explain what happened?
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Yeah, you discharged the battery across your metal braces.
You're lucky the braces didn't heat up enough to burn you or crack a tooth open, and that the battery didn't explode.
tic
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Sony batter or two and you would have been in the running, or at least an honorable mention.
Just Dell's friendly way to remind you that... (Score:5, Funny)
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(I'm not sure how the "freakout" campaign is supposed to work selling burgers either - but someone at BK bought in to the idea... why not Dell?)
PowerBooks have had this for a while.... (Score:5, Informative)
I believe the MacBook Pros also suffer from this however I haven't tested this.
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Re:PowerBooks have had this for a while.... (Score:5, Informative)
Many electronic power packs use "transformers", which use two isolated, closed loops to transform power, magnetically coupled. (to make a trade off of voltage for current, since laptops need 12v and the wall gives 120v) There is no path between the two, and you could start chewing on the power wires if you wanted to, (one at a time I would advise) without getting the slightest buzz.
The only way you could get a buzz off the case is if the case is grounded (via the 3rd pin) and that there is a ground fault in your area of the building (in which case you would get a buzz by sticking a paperclip into the ground pin on the outlet) OR if the pack was a more direct regulated power and was designed poorly. (like connecting the center tap off the 120v side with the center tap on the laptop side)
Devices experiencing a minor short that have a ground pin can cause equipment all over the building to buzz you. Attach a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupter) power strip and see if it trips where you are seeing the problem. It just might. I've seen cases where when I plugged in a certain power tool and revved it up, it would trip every GFCI outlet in the house. Same effect, caused by the power tool's bad (dangerous really) design.
Re:PowerBooks have had this for a while.... (Score:4, Informative)
When ground is not common between two pieces of equipment, there is no return path, and no electrons flow. Most people's view of electricity is relative to their AC power outlets, which DO have a common ground. I have an isolation transformer in the basement, it's a simple 1:1 transformer. I can GRAB the power wires coming out the back (one at a time!) and nothing happens. Nothing, not even a light buzz. That's because the transformer isolates the outgoing lines from ground. This is an excellent lightning deterrent for my servers because lightning simply has no reason to go after my servers since they are isolated from what the lightning wants, to seek out ground.
All power tools have to pass UL, if it's tripping a GFI either it or the GFI is bad.
The power tools I was speaking of, are the type that have either failed, (loose internal wire usually) or are too old for that. Yes they're not supposed to do that.
Let me try to illustrate with water as an example. Water works a lot the same way as electricity. (that's where current got its name actually) Lets imagine water requires a pipe to flow in. As in, if you cut off the end of a water pipe with water in it, nothing comes out. It would behave the same as electricity. At the wall you have a pump that on one port pushes water and the other it pulls. Attach a single pipe and no water flows because the end just terminates, there is no return path. Put a water powered toy at the end of the wire and the toy does nothing. Run a second pipe from the toy and back to the outlet, and now the toy operates. The reason is the water cannot run through the toy no matter what the pressure (voltage) unless it has a return path since it can't just come flying out the other end of the toy and spray around the room. Electricity is the same way, it can't just spray out the end of the wire all over the room.
Water has to come from somewhere. And they provide you with a third port on the outlet to tap into the water reservoir. This is the ground. Now lets run a drip pan below our toy and run that to the common. As long as the toy doesn't leak, no water flows back to the outlet through the ground. Lets for the sake of argument say that around the toy the water can get to the drip pan if it springs a leak. This is why there is a metal shell around your power drill, that's the drip pan. Now lets say the toy springs a leak. (a frayed wire comes loose inside the drill and touches the outer case)
That's a ground fault. Water can now flow from the high pressure line to the ground, as well as the return. Depending on the size of the pipe, energy the toy requires, and size of the fault, this may be a little water or a lot of water. Same with the short in the drill.
This is actually working out well as an example.
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Please (Score:5, Funny)
Which is the better option? (Score:4, Funny)
I think I'll stick to my ThinkPad, thank you much...
xps m1330 owner here (Score:5, Informative)
I checked, and my 1330 has a grounded three-prong plug going into the wall, and a three-prong plug going in to the power brick. Maybe the UK 1330s/1530s are different than the American ones?
Re:xps m1330 owner here (Score:5, Interesting)
Perhaps because 110 volts is seen to be less dangerous than 240v, it gets omitted.
Re:xps m1330 owner here (Score:5, Informative)
Re:xps m1330 owner here (Score:5, Informative)
Only unearthed devices using power-supply protection described as "double-insulating" may substitute a plastic 3rd pin. Typically, these have (very) heavy insulation on the mains side of the power supply, and then use an internal transformer to "float" the device's electrical workings so that any inadvertent contact with a person just changes the circuit's point of reference without causing a shock. They would not exhibit the symptoms described in this article.
Any devices you might own which have a plastic third pin and don't bear the label "Class 2" or the double insulation symbol are unsafe. Get them looked at by someone competent. As a point of reference, a brief poll of the various devices around me here found one Class 2 device -- the LVDC transformer for my desktop speakers. And a hauling out the schematics, yes, the transformer has a floating secondary.
BTW, the reason you see a lot more Class 1 appliances in the UK is because that is the preferred design for any device that uses more than a trivial amount of power. In a Class 1 device an electrical failure cannot bring the chassis to mains potentials without blowing a fuse, whereas in some pathological cases Class 2 devices fail to fail safe (if that makes sense).
The problem discussed in the article has nothing to do with what sort of plugs are in use. Class 1 devices, properly earthed, are safe. Class 2 devices, properly insulated, are safe. The problem in TFA is that the safety features of the electrical system weren't used properly, thus causing a hazard. Much the same as if you have a Class 1 device without a ground connection -- a charge (which would normally be rapidly dissipated to ground) can very slowly build up on the chassis, leading eventually to a shocking result.
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(* not entirely true, some outlets have a grounding tab on them, to which you can attach a grounding wire from certain appliances. But not every appliance, nor every outlet. Or even most. Or half. My last apartment had two outlets with grounding tabs on them, total.)
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Someone go grab John Connor! (Score:5, Funny)
two in the junk, one in the trunk (Score:5, Informative)
the two-pronged connection between the mains lead and the power adapter, which isn't earthed properly because of its lack of a third pin.
That explanation is over simplified. Tons of metal-encased devices have only two-prong leads and are perfectly safe. My Apple laptop for one, and a lot of stereo equipment as well.
UL allows this if the device is sufficiently isolated. What is sufficient depends on the type of device, the type of power supply, whether the supply is internal or external, and so on. Usually it means that the DC output of the power supply has a very high impedance with respect its input, and also that the metal chassis of the device is floating (with specific distances and or dielectics between it and any possible potential) and/or has a non-conductive finish. I'm not sure but I think even just clear anodizing would meet that requirement. I just tested my MacBook and all the aluminum surfaces are not conductive, suggesting such a finish.
In order for the Dells to be zapping people they must have doubly screwed the pooch: wall wart is putting out a high potential, AND the case is not properly insulated.
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Dell's answer to the MacBook Air? (Score:5, Funny)
Just keep in touch with your Dell laptop.
Were they having a fire sale? (Score:5, Funny)
Dell's response... (Score:5, Funny)
The 3rd pin isnt much different from the neutral (Score:5, Interesting)
tm
WRONG! (Score:5, Informative)
From the device's perspective, neutral must be treated as AC line input, never ever ever as a ground.
Any number of wiring faults could cause the neutral to become hot, and even under normal circumstances it is common to see some potential on neutral relative to ground, because loads on the branch circuit are pulling it towards one phase or the other.
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3-tap transformer:
#####--- V1
#####--- Neutral --- Ground
#####--- V2
V1 to Neutral = 120V
V2 to Neutral = 120V
V1 to V2 = 240V
Neutral to Ground 0V
Read up on Split Phase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_phase [wikipedia.org]
Re:The 3rd pin isnt much different from the neutra (Score:2)
Actually, it totally depends on your local electrical system. In the UK the grounds are usually tied to neutral at a substation. It's also possible for 'ground' to be literally that - a conductive-tipped pole driven deep into the ground somewhere near the property. I'm sure there is variation within the US too.
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In the US ground is tied to earth at the service entrance, as is the neutral. Ground and neutral are connected together nowhere else. The service from the utility does not include a ground: just neutral and two 120V lines (240V between them). The utility's neutral is grounded at the transformer.
> I'm sure there is variation within the US too.
I don't believe that there are any jurisdictions in the US that have not adopted the National El
Re:The 3rd pin isnt much different from the neutra (Score:3, Informative)
* In sub panels the neutral and ground should never be connected (ground loop)!
* The neutral wire has the same amount of energy running through it as the black wire!
* A GFCI outlet will save you from your shitty Dell. Install them!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_phase [wikipedia.org]
it's different enough from neutral (Score:2)
But the thing is the neutral is designed to ALWAYS carry current, it's part of the circuit. The ground is there for safety and usually carries no current.
Why is this important? Well, if ground is at 0V, but the wire between the outlet and ground is 1 ohm and carrying 15 Amps, then the neutral at the outlet will be at 15A * 1 ohm, or 15V (AC in this case). So now there is a voltage difference between neutral and "true" ground (whic
Re:The 3rd pin isnt much different from the neutra (Score:2)
Re:The 3rd pin isnt much different from the neutra (Score:2)
A cold cathode light uses about 700 volts AC 50hz at 4ma or so. This would definitely feel tingly.
You would not feel 12VDC at all.
3 things (Score:4, Informative)
2) People who complain are getting new plugs with the ground prong and the problem goes away (not that they should have to complain).
3) On the forums linked to in TFA there's a response from "a Dell guy":
To the tingle, you are absolutely correct, it's a grounding thing. Dell product design went from a 3 prong grounded plug at the outlet to a 2 prong "floating ground". The tingle you get is your body feeling the circuit. If you wish to eliminate that sensation, use the system on a solid surface such as a table or put something between the bottom of the system and you that's thicker than typical blue jean or khaki material. If you're more concerned than that the 2 prong adapter can be replaced with a 3 which eliminates it. As full assurance, the voltage you feel is decidely not harmful and there's no risk of electric shock.
Whaa? Even if it's true that it's not dangerous, who the hell wants current running through them all the time? That tingling feeling isn't very pleasant. I know, I've had it from other appliances (and from sticking my tongue on batteries).
Re:3 things (Score:5, Informative)
Not possible. A UK socket [wikipedia.org] physically *requires* that a ground pin be present. The ground pin is a bit longer than the live/neutral pins, and is used to open a "shutter" blocking the live/neutral holes when the plug is inserted. When the longer ground pin is inserted, the shutter opens, allowing the plug to be fully inserted.
As an additional safety precaution, every plug is also fitted with a 13A fuse, and all domestic circuits fitted with the connector described above are *explicitly* rated to operate at up to 13 amps. (Additionally every single wall socket also has an individual on/off switch)
The UK/Ireland wiring standard is arguably the safest in the world, and makes the North American NEMA standard seem primitive and dangerous by comparison, as outlets are not shuttered, circuits do not have an explicit amperage rating, and no ground pin is required.
(There's also an older 15A British standard that's still used in some former British colonies and dimmable theatre installations that lacks the fuse and shutter mechanism, and is electrically compatible with the "new" standard with the use of an adapter, despite lacking the newer standard's safety features)
Mind you, the ground pin doesn't actually have to be connected to anything, nor would one expect it to on a laptop, considering that no grounding is possible when the laptop's running off of battery power, nor should AC power ever even enter the laptop's chassis.
Sounds like either Dell screwed up the design, or CNet installed carpeting in their UK office.
This could be... (Score:5, Funny)
Think of the possibilities!
Tech: Ok, put your mouse over the 'My computer' Icon and right click...
Guy: Why does this have to be so complicated? Why doesn't everything just work right the first time? You Idiots should be shot!
Tech: Well Sir, if you would just...
Guy: I'm tired of you people and your attitudes, why I should...*ZAP* AHHH! WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT?
Tech: Now what did you learn?
Guy: I'M GONNA KILL...*ZAAP* AHHH!
Tech: A bit slow today are we?
What year is it? (Score:2)
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Simple fix. (With disclaimer) (Score:5, Funny)
Cut open Dell power cord, exposing the two wires inside.
Position pieces of heat-shrink tube over the stripped inner wires to be joined.
Connect positive extension cord wire to positive laptop wire and solder.
Connect neg. wire to neg. wire and solder.
Connect the third ground wire to the exterior casing of the laptop with tape as to be removable.
Cover over the sealed three wires with heat shrink or electrical tape for asthetics.
Disclaimer: I'm assuming everyone here knows what they are doing. Mains power can be very hazardous and very deadly. Do NOT attempt this if you are unsure of what you are doing -- call someone more experienced if in doubt. But for those of you who know what you are doing, this should be an easy fix to avoid the shock of you being used for a ground wire.
Re:Simple fix. (With disclaimer) (Score:4, Funny)
Enter glass-walled reactor room
Remove shiny tube cover
Hold hands over open end of tube in mysterious fashion while leaning over tube, ensuring maximum irradiation
Replace cover, waddle over to locked door, collapse
Die in dramatic fashion while taking a subtle parting shot at your best friend for his lack of manual dexterity
Optionally, you might consider transferring your katra to someone else beforehand, especially if you've been thinking about directing and would like a shot at it in your next movie.
Earthed? (Score:2)
I'm guessing they probably mean grounded. I've never heard of that term, maybe I'm out of the new slang loop?
Re:Earthed? (Score:5, Informative)
There is no need to be *shocked* that other conventions exist. "Earthed" is not wrong, it's not slang, it's just not standard in the US.
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I never said it was wrong, I just wasn't familiar with the term is all. I've always referred to them as "ground," "neutral," and "hot" myself. *shrugs* Learn something new every day.
Re:Earthed? (Score:4, Informative)
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Since my initial electronic instruction in the 70s was from my grandfather, I will often use the term 'earthed'.
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earthed? (Score:2)
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Re:earthed? (Score:4, Informative)
On a similar note, alot of people are questioning the use of "Mains". In Australa it referes to the main utility supply - eg the 240V wall socket.
Happened to me on old ThinkPads (Score:2)
I've had no static problems with my current laptop (which does actually have a grounded p
I can vouch for this... (Score:2)
Other Dell laptops exihbit this (Score:2)
Hazard for people w/ medical implants ? (Score:2)
I suppose any potential threat could be worse if the current were conducted for example - from one hand across the body to the other, so that it would travel across the chest or implant while seeking ground...
Well, obviously... (Score:2)
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Any electricians in the house? Bad wiring! (Score:2)
The people getting a shock probably have their outlet wired incorrectly.
I doubt very much it is Dell's
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There is no "+120" and "-120" in house mains. What you have are two 'hot' phases with the AC on them separated in phase angle (theta) by about 90 degrees (you'd need to look at them with a power analyzer or ground-isolated oscilloscope to see this), and a neutral.
Typically, if I recall correctly, the two hot phases are connected to the outside ends o
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Ahhh... no, not quite. You're referring to the two hot legs of a typical household AC power feed as if they were DC, which is a dangerous misconception at best.
For canonical reference only, it works for discussion, especially when you have a broad audience.
So: My take on this issue is that it is indeed bad design on Dell's part, most likely the resu
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You have a ground(this path leads to a copper pole hammered into the ground), neutral(white or gray, maybe with stripe) goes to the center tap on the transformer, and Red/orange/black is the phase wire.
This prevents drift.
If this wasn't wired correctly, who would get voltage the varied from 80-120 volts. This would cause havoc with any appliance plugged in.
This is Dells fault, they admit it,and will send you a new cable.
Re:Any electricians in the house? Bad wiring! (Score:4, Informative)
if there were an actual short to the plate, i'd look somewhere non-obvious. like maybe an inverter used to step up voltage for the display. (and no, i do not have any specific knowledge of the voltages used on modern displays)
not new (Score:2)
everytime you'd start working on a lesson you'd get zapped.
Laptops don't need an electrical ground (Score:2)
Perhaps what you are experiencing is some AC getting through the RF filter on the power supply. Sometimes there is a very small HV cap between AC side and DC side (i.e. computer)
I guess in summary I would have to say that the power supplies involved are poorly designed and/or faulty.
Perspective from Dell (Score:5, Informative)
Cuba and non-grounded 220v... (Score:5, Interesting)
However, I had to bend the ground pin out of the way to plug it in. Things charged and worked fine. However, apparently the brushed aluminum case wasn't quite at true ground with this arrangement. It was more than tingly (if your feet were on the ground; if you lifted them, it was fine). I made a point of only using the power supply to charge it, then use it on battery power, for safety's sake.
It was interesting to see the cavalier attitude towards electricity down there. A worker was doing some construction with an electric drill outside our room; the drill obviously only took 120v, as he hooked up a transformer in our *bathroom* (which was near the door) to power his drill. It was connected to the plug with wires jammed into the outlet, and to the drill by wires wrapped around the prongs. Scary stuff. We stayed clear of our room that day.
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It's not a bug, it's a feature!
We had electric hand dryers in a bathroom at my junior high that were improperly grounded such that you'd get a small current flow if you touched both of them at the same time. We had guys that would do that for four or five minutes at a time because they enjoyed it and because people thought it was cool.
The moral of the story? Make the kids think it's cool and fun to get shocked by their laptops and the sales of these things will skyrocket.
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That's different (Score:3, Informative)
Re:This has happened for a long time with MacBook (Score:2)
Two Cultures Divided by a Common Language (Score:3, Informative)