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Intel, Microsoft Despised the XO Laptop 521

gregsim writes "The Wall Street Journal today reports that the new XO laptop, centerpiece of the One Laptop Per Child project, is stimulating an active response from both Intel and Microsoft. The companies evidently feel threatened by the little upstart, intended to help third-world children. (The XO runs Linux and uses AMD chips.) Microsoft has cut their software to $3 each and Intel has designed their own laptop called the Classmate to sell between $230 and $300, nearly double the XO's price. Rather than defend the relative merits of his creation, professor Negroponte is crying foul and (if the article is to be believed) not even arguing the technical merits. The initial demand for the XO has fallen well below Mr. Negroponte's projections as Intel and Microsoft have successfully argued that their entries are superior. 45,000 have been ordered through the Give One, Get One campaign. I am happy that I ordered mine — it will be a landmark model in any case."
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Intel, Microsoft Despised the XO Laptop

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  • by I'm Don Giovanni ( 598558 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @05:04PM (#21465193)
    If Negreponte's goal is to get cheap laptops in the hands of poor children, why would he be angry? Those poor kids deserve choice, and competition from the Classmate provides that. So fewer kids get the XO, so what? Seems like Negreponte is letting his ego cloud his vision.
    • by macz ( 797860 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @05:08PM (#21465219)
      Competition is good, but anti-competition is bad. Negroponte's argument is that the big boys are smothering XO in the crib with half-assed attempts at being cheap (but DRM and IP laden).
      • by Bill, Shooter of Bul ( 629286 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @11:29PM (#21467705) Journal
        DRM and IP are abso-freaking irrelevant to the education of third world students. The goal is to improve education. All actions by all players should be viewed through that lens. So bring up IP and DRM, if you think that effects the education of the end users ( and please explain that non obvious point), but not because you hate MPAA and RIAA because of what they do that affect your life. We are NOT talking about you. Negroponte is upset because Microsoft is using pressure to use an inferior product at a higher price which will be worse for the students. Period.
      • I think part of the reason may be fear of losing a big part of their market to super-cheap laptops.

        Most people use their laptops/destops to do mundane stuff: email, web-browsing, word-processing/spreadsheet stuff mostly. A $100-$200 laptop that could run firefox/openoffice, small enough to fit on your lap in coach-class of the airplane, and could run all day could really cut into their sales.

    • by 0123456 ( 636235 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @05:10PM (#21465247)
      "If Negreponte's goal is to get cheap laptops in the hands of poor children, why would he be angry?"

      If Microsoft and Intel put Negreponte out of 'business' by selling subsidised low-cost PCs, how long do you think they'll continue to sell them afterwards?

      They're not doing this out of the kindness of their hearts, they're doing it because they see a competitor they want to eliminate.
      • by kat_skan ( 5219 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @05:18PM (#21465295)

        If Microsoft and Intel put Negreponte out of 'business' by selling subsidised low-cost PCs, how long do you think they'll continue to sell them afterwards?

        Maybe a long time if Walmart decides that selling $200 laptops along side their $200 desktops sounds like a good idea. Granted that won't help children in developing nations much, but it'd sure do something interesting to the PC market.

      • by Gary W. Longsine ( 124661 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @05:54PM (#21465517) Homepage Journal
        I'm not sure about Intel's role in this, but Microsoft undoubtedly sees a threat beyond what's being discussed here. The threat isn't directly Negroponte and the One Laptop Per Child project, it's Linux. If you put a cheap laptop in the hands of a few hundred million kids, they won't grow up to be afraid of it. That's the real threat. Microsoft's threat horizon exceeds a generation.
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Wavicle ( 181176 )
        They're not doing this out of the kindness of their hearts, they're doing it because they see a competitor they want to eliminate.

        I call false dichotomy. They could also be doing it because it is an emerging market they want to enter. Also, ClassmatePC comes with Linux as a (cheaper) option. Further the target markets are slightly different. XO is aimed at primary school children while the more capable (and slightly more expensive) Classmate is aimed at secondary school children.
    • by chuckymonkey ( 1059244 ) <(moc.liamg) (ta) (notrub.d.selrahc)> on Saturday November 24, 2007 @05:10PM (#21465253) Journal
      Ummmm, the kids don't really have a choice about which one they get. They are ordered by the kids' respective governments. The other problem with the Wintel offering is that it's not environmentally hardened like the XO. For a kid in a mud hut having a computer that can take intense amounts of punishment is very important. Another thing I don't like about Wintel interfering is that it really isn't geared towards learning, they're worried about a bunch of kids learning something other than M$ software and intel Hardware. The XO is pretty much agnostic when it comes to software and hardware, they're going for cheap durable and good for learning which they have with the current setup. Now if Wintel were worried about the kids not getting something important to education and took steps to mitigate that lack then I don't see anything wrong with them getting involved, but really all they're worried about are future profit margins.
    • Competition is wonderful in the long run and on the whole. But it really sucks when you're one of the people competing.

      Any business' ultimate goal is to establish a monopoly and control the market. With that said, I don't know enough about OLPC to know if it's business or non-profit or what. But even if they're not a business it still sucks to have people competing against you. Because for all the effort they've put in to make their product what it is they could see it all swept up by a competitor who is ab
    • Because Intel and Microsoft may be selling their version at a loss, to eliminate the "competition". If successful, once the XO laptop disappears, so does the cheap Intel/MS laptop.
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      People seem to be slanging off Negreponte as being overly protective of his invention. According to the article, he isn't. He is in the education business, and happy that a side effect of his initiative is that cheap laptops are becoming available. He is not in the business of flogging laptops. He has technical concerns about apples-with-oranges comparisons.

      I suspect he expects his initiative to fail. Not for lack of merit, but simply the gross inadequacy of the decision makers in most countries. Bribery is
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by hhas ( 990942 )
      Competition is great. Microsoft selling their products as $3 a pop isn't competition though, unless you think $3 is cost price or greater. That's a subsidised loss leader intended to undercut the competition and thereby put them out of business, a classic anti-competitive tactic []. You're welcome to disagree, of course, but try fitting out a US-based organisation with $3 copies of MS software and see how long it takes the BSA to drop on them like a ton of bricks.
    • Because "choice" is not always good, and merely getting "cheap laptops in the hands of poor children" is not the goal. One must be mindful of what the choices are and their long-term implications. A choice of being dominated by a proprietor is inappropriate for all users. This computer aims to educate and a system users can totally modify and learn from to suit their needs. Basing the XO on free software is entirely appropriate as is using the computer in freedom. Building the XO on proprietary softwar
    • by burnin1965 ( 535071 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @07:14PM (#21466041) Homepage

      If Negreponte's goal is to get cheap laptops in the hands of poor children, why would he be angry?

      Good question, and the answer is that Negroponte's goal is NOT to get cheap laptops in the hands of poor children. []

                "It's an education project, not a laptop project."

              -- Nicholas Negroponte

      No matter how many times it is explained over and over again it seems Intel and Microsoft have successfully twisted this story of constructive education into some cheap assed laptops for the poor expanding market dilema where there is a need for competition. If Negroponte is pissed he has good reason to be and anyone at Intel or Microsoft who has been involved in the stupid classmate PC project and the efforts to kill OLPC should be ashamed of their scum bag used car salesman tactics.

      Negroponte and his team put in the effort to research and develop their constructive education idea and now that they have implemented all their learnings and research into a ready to deploy solution you have these greedy bastards trying to destroy the project in the name of market share and profits. And make no mistake about it, neither Intel nor Microsoft actually have any interest in the goals of the OLPC project or the poor countries it is intended for, their involvement is self serving and designed to generate PR so they can maintain mind share in their current markets, not in some imagined expanding market in poor countries where they see potential for profit.

      I may come across as rather harsh on the classmate PC and Microsoft and Intel's actions but again I think its deserved considering the years of work the OLPC people put into a non-profit project with admirable goals only to see it threatened in the name of greed.
  • Technical merits? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by CRCulver ( 715279 ) <> on Saturday November 24, 2007 @05:06PM (#21465211) Homepage
    It seems to me that the children to whom these laptops are going don't need whizbang computing power, they just need basic computing ability. The OLPC project has no need to "argue the technical merits" of their device against potentially more powerful (but more expensive) competition when the price for this technology is the lowest around.
    • the children to whom these laptops are going don't need whizbang computing power

      Now a child can get educated simply by accessing HTML pages, which means even an old Pentium 133MHz processor will do fine.

      But children in the first world will soon be educated from within Second Life and some sort of next-generation post-AJAX interactive Web which will be much more resource-hungry than HTML.

      With this in mind, it would be reasonable to except that children laptops should get more powerful soon, even for third world countries. If not, then when in first world children will learn from

    • by Erris ( 531066 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @06:47PM (#21465851) Homepage Journal

      Behold "peace" with Intel and M$:

      In May, Mr. Negroponte appeared on CBS's "60 Minutes" and blasted Intel, suggesting it was trying to drive his nonprofit out of business. ... Two months later, Intel announced it was joining One Laptop's board. The agreement included a "nondisparagement" clause, under which Intel and One Laptop promised not to criticize each other, according to Mr. Negroponte.


      He seems most frustrated with Intel, whose overseas sales force has trumpeted the Classmate over his laptop in Nigeria and Mongolia, using marketing materials that claim the Intel machine is superior. "These are not isolated examples," he said in a recent interview. "They are daily events."

      Par for the Wintel course, self restraint is foolish because M$ and Intel will always pull every trick they can. When convicted monopolists urge you to hold back, listening to them is the worst thing you can do. Intel traded a few million dollars for what's going to millions of units in sales. That's too bad, because Windoze is the wrong OS for the job.

      It's easy to see that the usual one size fits all Windoze is not useful to school children, especially those in the developing world. It's designed for US fortune 500 businesses and to satisfy the wants of the MAFIAA. It's dependent on a $400 "office" suite for the most basic of paper writing in English and it has little else. Native editing and authoring tools are pathetic, networking is designed for an office LAN and media tools are designed to extract money from rich US college students rather than to encourage creativity. Foreign language support in Windoze is pathetic, as you would expect from software that can't take corrections in the field. All of this can be said about M$'s latest and greatest OS. I'm scared of what they have to offer for $3. Any developing nation that wants to see what will happen to the Intel machine has only to look at what happens to the millions of used laptops the developed world disposes of daily in their backyard. Laptops being tossed out by the developed world are more powerful and have better software but could be used right now by developing nations for next to nothing. They are not used because they are not well suited to the task and Wintel laptops that make it to the developing world today are sent there as toxic waste. OLPC addressed all of these concerns in their design.

  • by FooAtWFU ( 699187 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @05:08PM (#21465225) Homepage
    Ah, yes, the canonical monopoly tactic to competition coming along.
    • sit there minding your own business making $$$$$
    • competitor comes along with something
    • monopoly makes its own stuff to CRUSH the competitor (optionally even suffering a short-term loss)
    • things drift back to making $$$$$
    • market failure!

  • by Anonymous Coward
    The XO is selling for $199. $230 is hardly 'double' the price.
  • Waste of time (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 24, 2007 @05:09PM (#21465233)
    The third world needs a lot more than a cheap laptop. They have to figure out agriculture first!!!
    • by okmijnuhb ( 575581 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @05:20PM (#21465311)
      Who needs agriculture? They can just order food online after making some quick cash with some online scams.
    • Re:Waste of time (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Colin Smith ( 2679 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @05:21PM (#21465319)

      They have to figure out agriculture first!!!
      They can't figure out agriculture till the USA and EU stop dumping their subsidised agricultural overproduction on their markets and open their own agricultural markets to competition.
    • And one great way to learn to do better agriculture science is to have access to the www. The biggest and best thing that internet access brings to the developing world is the knowledge of how to develop themselves.
    • by ceeam ( 39911 )
      I suppose there's no IT involved in modern "agriculture". OK.
  • by DrXym ( 126579 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @05:19PM (#21465305)
    The OLPC is an amazing project and will spearhead a whole slew of cheap laptops. I am just disappointed that OLPC themselves didnt see the potential in selling a consumer version of their device. I bought an Asus Eee PC largely because there is no consumer OLPC. I love the form factor and everything else about the OLPC but why restrict it to 3rd world countries when the appeal is universal? They really should sell a consumer version - bump the storage capacity, flash it with Fedora and maybe ship it in a black / white version but please sell the damned thing. The Asus Eee PC demonstrates the enormous demand for these devices. The OLPC project is denying themselves a pile of sales and profit by not releasing a consumer version.
    • Some people say some weird things about Eee and GPL, see here [] and here []... I don't know whether what they say is true, but I guess it would be of interest to consumers who care about the GPL.

    • by arivanov ( 12034 )
      When ideology and business meet, ideology survives only by gaining business footing. Otherwise it loses.

      One Laptop per Child will lose. I have not seen such a pathologically rabid ideologically driven project even in the days when I lived on the other side of the Iron curtain.

      My wife was looking for a rugged platform to drive field lab tests for HIV, sleeping sickness, frambesia, etc in the third world. The same idea as the OLPC, but for diagnostics - to bring the diagnostics out of the big hospitals into t
  • Potential buyers in the developing world have expressed concern about the availability of training for schoolteachers, and after-sales support. Mr. Negroponte's plan is for the machines to be simple enough that students can train themselves -- and solve any glitches that arise.
    Mr. Negroponte said some initial tech support would be provided by Brightstar Corp., a Miami-based wireless equipment distributor. Just who would provide support a few years from now, he said, was "a frightening question." The s
    • by brit74 ( 831798 )
      The laptops are given as charity. They're trying to make them as inexpensive as possible so more of them can be given. You simply can't expect good tech support when you're trying to keep the price as low as possible. Do you think Intel and Microsoft are going to have any patience with tech support calls for their "Classmate" computer? No way. They don't make enough money to bother.

      Besides, the incentive for computer companies to provide support is so that their customers become repeat customers. I
    • by tom's a-cold ( 253195 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @05:53PM (#21465507) Homepage

      No real vendor support. Who is going to buy these things when they have to fix every single problem themselves?
      Haven't travelled much, have you? What, you think Fedex does pickups in rural Chad at a rate the locals can afford? Believe me, it's difficult calling support when there's no phone. In much of the world, it's mend and make do. If someone local doesn't do the work for you, it isn't going to get done.

      So perhaps you have some ideas about how vendor support will be provided by the likes of Microsoft?

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by jc42 ( 318812 )
      No real vendor support. Who is going to buy these things when they have to fix every single problem themselves?

      I'll bet that in most villages (or poor urban neighborhoods), there'll be 2 or 3 kids with these that'll immediately want to take them apart and learn how they work. They'll also dig into the software, and start writing their own. The rest of the kids will call them the local equivalent of geeks and nerds, but they'll learn. And they'll be the local support crew.

      An important ideal in the OLPC pr
  • by coolate ( 1173457 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @05:23PM (#21465331) Homepage
    The real annoying thing is that they are not jumping in the market to help kids but undermine a non profit so they can get the market. Other companies like AMD have been helping the effort, but Microsoft and Intel see it as competition. This is a non profit effort. Next the pharmaceuticals will be going after the red cross because they want to sell cheap blood alternatives to disaster victims. Yeah competition! I am proud to have gotten one.
  • by Colin Smith ( 2679 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @05:26PM (#21465355) []

    You'll find the OLPC is basically just a financial subsidy to the poor in the developing world...

    What's the average annual wage in Bangladesh?

  • by SuperBanana ( 662181 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @05:27PM (#21465363)

    Intel has designed their own laptop called the Classmate to sell between $230 and $300, nearly double the XO's price

    What? The XO was targeted to cost $100. It ballooned out to $130, then $175, then $188, then $200 [].

    Now, if you want to donate 10,000 of them, you get that $200 price. If you want to donate 100 or less, you pay $300 per laptop. []

    Why they have a sliding price scale is beyond me...they're supposed to be a non-profit, building the things for the poorest people in the world, and yet...the fewer you buy, the more you pay...

    • They may be a non-profit organisation but I bet the manufacturing company making them isn't.
    • by bfields ( 66644 )

      Why they have a sliding price scale is beyond me...they're supposed to be a non-profit, building the things for the poorest people in the world, and yet...the fewer you buy, the more you pay...

      It's cheaper per unit to fulfill a larger order than a smaller one.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by tgd ( 2822 )
      Or you can buy one, donate one for $400 and donate the second one as well. Two donated, $200 a piece, $400 tax deduction and you still get a year of T-Mobile internet access.

  • by Flavio ( 12072 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @05:30PM (#21465381)
    If so, I'm sorry to say he lacks the cynicism to deal with politicians, specially those from third world nations. These individuals will endorse any project that makes them look good. An OLPC endorsement is marketing gold from a politician's point of view, because it ties education, children and technology -- areas which third world nations are very reluctant to invest in -- all at zero cost.

    Talk is cheap.
  • It's irrelevan whether MS/Intel or Linux/AMD's product is "better". All that matters is that kids in bad situations get access to technology and information to advance their futures. If either of them is serving the cause, then it should be supported regardless on what camp one stands.
  • Did he (or anyone, for that matter) expect Microsoft or Intel to just roll over and die? Of course they downed his product, and of course they offered competing products. That's what companies do! And if Negroponte can't handle that, he's in the wrong line of work.
    • Not "competition" (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Tony ( 765 )
      Competition is basically when a consumer has a choice among products.

      In this case, both Microsoft and (especially, in this particular case) Intel use their market clout to *shut out* the OLPC. They are basically buying off governments or distributors to the point that OLPC isn't facing competition-- it's not getting a chance to compete.

      That's the problem with unbridled corporatism (which is what we are seeing, rather than capitalism). Corporations get to the point that *they* are afraid to face real competi
  • by bogaboga ( 793279 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @06:06PM (#21465607)
    It is in situations like these that capitalism disappoints me. Those who tout capitalism will say that "it's a free world"..."survival for the fittest" and so on.

    But in this case, companies are entering a [new] market in order to kill competition. No wonder, even in the so called developed capitalist markets of the industrialized world like Canada, no foreigner can own a majority stake in the telecommunications sector for example.

  • Why there is an OLPC (Score:4, Informative)

    by kriston ( 7886 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @06:07PM (#21465615) Homepage Journal
    I'm waiting for my XOPC which I ordered at 6:05 AM on day 1 of the Give-One-Get-One program.

    The reason for this machine and its unique interface, power saving, and wireless connection is for empowering people who do not have computing expertise, reliable power, or even telephone connections.

    An important use for the machine that is overlooked is to provide textbooks to children in areas which simply don't have textbooks.
    The laptop has an important reflective screen for e-book reading.
    Imagine having all your courseware on one machine that you transmit to them wirelessly?
    Furthermore, Worldspace at has committed to using part of its satellite radio bandwidth to transmit courseware to areas like Africa, India, and Asia.

    The free sharing of textbooks and courseware are far and away the most important aspects of this laptop.

    Have you ever taken a class for which the textbooks were on back-order? These children deal with that every school day. The copier is always broken, there is never any paper or toner, and this laptop helps to solve all these problems.
  • by Dachannien ( 617929 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @06:08PM (#21465627)
    Hmm..... I suppose I'd pay $3 for Vista.

  • by _KiTA_ ( 241027 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @06:17PM (#21465673) Homepage
    Microsoft has cut their software to $3 each and Intel has designed their own laptop called the Classmate to sell between $230 and $300, nearly double the XO's price.

    The initial demand for the XO has fallen well below Mr. Negroponte's projections as Intel and Microsoft have successfully argued that their entries are superior. 45,000 have been ordered through the Give One, Get One campaign.

    Congratulations! Now that Mr. Negroponte's been publicly screwed by Microsoft and Intel, he can officially call himself a computer manufacturer.

    Way to go!

  • by IchBinEinPenguin ( 589252 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @06:41PM (#21465813)
    ... without a classROOM?

    The XO is designed to work without one. No mains, no shade, no dust-free environment, no roof to keep the rain out ...
    What makes the XO special is what it is what it _does not need_.
  • What's new here? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Glasswire ( 302197 ) <glasswire AT gmail DOT com> on Saturday November 24, 2007 @08:26PM (#21466459) Homepage
    As I said on ./ on Fri July 13 [], OLPC is a project, not a product. Just because the current XO laptop is AMD Geode-based doesn't mean the next gen OLPC product won't be based on the 2008 (less than 1 watt) Intel Silverthorn processors [] which would likely be the basis of XO v2 - which will be much faster with even lower power draw.
    The Classmate is what it is. If a country wants it more than the XO and used some legitimate criteria for deciding, they have the right to do so. Intel certainly looked at what buyers found attractive about the XO in designing the Classmate - OLPC should look at what customers find attractive in the Classmate for XO v2.
  • Ok... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Blakey Rat ( 99501 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @08:43PM (#21466575)
    First of all, that summary was kind of long and confused. Is this story about:
    1) Microsoft cutting software prices?
    2) Intel making similar hardware?
    3) The price of Intel's similar hardware? ($230 is hardly double the XO's price, considering it's currently $200. But, you know, we'll go with it.)
    4) Mr. Negroponte's disappointment in the demand for it?
    5) 45,000 XO laptops have been ordered?

    It just kind of rambles from one point to another without being firmly *about* any of them.

    Secondly, isn't imitation the greatest form of flattery? How can you be so sure that MS and Intel are saying "let's crush this program!" and not "hey, that's a good idea, let's try it."
  • by Glasswire ( 302197 ) <glasswire AT gmail DOT com> on Saturday November 24, 2007 @09:07PM (#21466727) Homepage
    1) MYTH: MSFT and Intel constitute the evil Wintel cartel. Fact: MSFT doesn't like Intel's Classmate PC - read the Wikipedia article on it [] and you'll notice that there are 3 supported OS (Mandriva Linux, Metasys 2.0, Windows XP). XP is poorly suited to the Classmate and some form of Linux would likely be the OS
    2) MYTH: Intel hates OLPC. Intel is PART of the OLPC project (since summer 2007) - Microsoft is NOT. (The original poster doesn't even mention this) Perhaps this would imply that next gen XO unit will be Intel-based ( see this post [] for more on why )
    3) MYTH: AMD Geode is superior technology. FACT: It's very lightweight, low power technology that AMD bought from National Semiconductor. It's not based on current technology. Intel is developing a whole generation of much lower power, but much faster processors - due partially to the magic of 45nm- in the Silverthorn cpus. coming in 2008. What's interesting about them is not so much the technical specs, but that the process technology lets the dies be so small that Intel will be able to put thousands of processors on a single wafer [] allowing Intel to make them very cheap and still get good margins for them. The whole target market for these cpus is phone/handhelds/MIDs and very basic systems that need x86 instruction set with sub-one-watt power consumption (and good performance). It is exactly what XO v2 should be built on.
  • by Cafe Alpha ( 891670 ) on Saturday November 24, 2007 @09:08PM (#21466741) Journal
    Because their governments make poor decisions. Also, from what I heard from a friend of mine who used to work at a manufacturing company, Intel uses (highly illegal, in the US) strong arm tactics. His company responded to threats by Intel (that they better buy their multisourced chips from Intel, otherwise their single sourced chip orders wouldn't be filled), by resesigning their product to use NO Intel chips.

    Bribes and threats. That's what Intel probably has going for it in the 3rd world. No doubt those MIT nerds aren't up to that level of the game. So they'll fail.
  • by voss ( 52565 ) on Sunday November 25, 2007 @12:30AM (#21468139)
    Asus is already coming out with the EEE pc, so intel will have to keep making classmates.

    There is a market in the US for $200 laptops, in classrooms if nothing else.
    The ability to have a laptop cart with 20 laptops for under 5k instead of the normal $25000
    is a disruptive technology.

    If XO does nothing else but bring down the cost of laptops for people around the world..then
    Mr. Negroponte deserves our gratitude.

"So why don't you make like a tree, and get outta here." -- Biff in "Back to the Future"