Can Apple Find a European iPhone Partner? 323
pete314 writes "A Vnunet.com article claims that European mobile operators are unwilling to concede to Apple iPhone partnership demands. Several operators went as far as to say they 'will never offer the iPhone.' In the US, Verizon reportedly passed on the device, and AT&T is rumored to have engaged in a revenue-sharing deal that includes monthly payments to Cupertino." In Europe, unlike in the US, Apple has the option of selling the iPhone through its own dealer network without a simlock.
Answer: yes (Score:5, Interesting)
And before anyone says that we "don't know" whether the iPhone has a user-accessible SIM tray, yes, we do [iphonealley.com].
And yes, iPhone will work on any GSM carrier; that's the whole purpose of standards like GSM, and iPhone is a GSM phone. Network-specific functionality (such as visual voicemail) will not work, but the phone and basic voicemail functionality, data functionality, etc., will absolutely work.
When Apple is ready to launch iPhone in Europe - it has previously said Q4 2007 - I have no doubt they'll be launching it, whether it's with one partner or multiple, or Apple makes some compromises to make a deal happen.
I also take issue with the article's claim, regurgitated in the summary, that selling iPhone without a simlock is "not an option" in the US. Several phone manufacturers
And before anyone says that the iPhone is subsidized, therefore it must be a million dollars without a contract, you're wrong. Even though a two year contract with AT&T is required for iPhone in the US, the iPhone is not subsidized - the price is what it is [engadgetmobile.com].
And mobile operators calling Apple arrogant? How amusing. Also, I have another idea: how about people stop predicting the doom of the iPhone before it's even out yet?
Oops, forgot to finish a sentence (Score:4, Interesting)
should go on to read:
Several phone manufacturers offer unlocked GSM phones in the US that will work with any GSM carrier. There's no reason Apple couldn't do this anywhere, including Europe, and the US (after its rumored 5-year exclusive deal with AT&T is over).
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You are an admited Apple flag waver, and even have close ties to Apple. And I will admit apple has some great products, and some not so great ones. I am not a fan boy either way.
But in al honesty, if it is released without 3g at first, do you think it was a wise move, or does it mean it is something they are tooling up to.
It is cheaper perhaps to make a cheap gsm phone. But cost subsidized or no, 400-500 dollars without 3g is a big pill to swallow.
I know Jobs is banking on the Apple fan base to move
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I know a lot of people think the lack of 3G is killer, but 3G doesn't cover much of the nation yet.
We're talking about the European market, where 3G is practically universal and wifi is relatively rare. It might not hurt Apple in the USA, where things are different, but it's a killer in Europe.
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Here in holland all phones, except for the really cheap ones, are internet capable (just GPRS or GPRS + UMTS).
They sure are, but do you actually know anyone who uses that stuff? Watching TV on your cell phone is fun for 10 seconds, until you realize that you'll never, ever use that, ever again. Browsing the web is somewhat more useful, but you're going to use this so rarely, given the crappyness of pretty much all phone browsers and the mere cost of the experience, that the slower transfer rates don't really matter.
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So I guess att's 3G may not be very good, but it seems like 3g evdo is not bad..
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Re:Answer: yes (Score:5, Insightful)
The simple fact that the parent post asks rhetorically "would it be cool if the first-gen Iphone had 3G?" amazes me. Jesus, is it still 2002 in the USA or something? If Apple takes that attitude to Europe it'll get laughed at. And it is.
* figure invented on the spot
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This is due in large part to geographic size, and the nature of the marketplace as mobile telephone services were rolled out in the United States.
Large metropolitan areas have coverage more or less on par
Features which are acceptable in the USA (e.g., EDGE,
It's not tht EDGE is "acceptable"; it's that it's what most of the coverage on AT&T's network actually is. And a large part of it, believe it or not, is economies of pu
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What's your point?
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Yeah, and most people I know, just call it a "phone". There are cases where a landline phone is acceptable, but mostly, it is viewed as an archaic technology that can only be used for two-way voice communication, and only when you are near it. In other words, about as hip as telex, CB-radios, or snail-m
Re:Answer: yes (Score:4, Interesting)
1. I didn't say that.
2. Your statement ignores the fact that massive numbers of people are in fact outside of 3G coverage.
3. Large numbers of people in major metro areas will still purchase iPhone, and WiFi will also mitigate the need for 3G for a lot of people. Those who really need 3G in a handheld device don't have to get an iPhone.
4. Obviously, future generations of iPhone will have added functionality. Apple has already said 3G is coming in the future.
Now will you explain why you don't want MMS or GPS either?
1. I never use MMS, and all the people saying that MMS is mandatory and "everyone uses it" are high, because I have never used it, and no one I know uses it. And this is on a major university campus. So that doesn't impact me at all. Also, I'd use email or iPhoto for all photo management from an iPhone.
2. I wish it did have GPS. It doesn't. I guess I get to weigh the pros vs. cons when making a purchasing decision? My current phone (Palm Treo 700p) doesn't have GPS either, nor do many PDA phones. Should we get upset about all of those, too? Why don't those have GPS?
The way I see it, the iPhone is basically a modern iPod duct taped to a state of the art cell phone from 2004.
Ignoring the ignorance of your comment, I'd just say, "Good thing buying one isn't mandatory, then." No one's forcing you to buy one.
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I agree very much with this statement. Maybe 3G is not so popular in the United States (we are diverting much of our bandwidth focus to the home computer, not mobile devices), 3G is becoming the de facto standard in Europe and Asia. It has been shown statistically that a lot of Internet activity coming from Europe alone was from mobile devices, and most, if not all, of the European mobile carriers have upgraded to 3G for this specific purpose.
I highly think that releasing any phone without this capability
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> therefore it must be a million dollars without a contract, you're wrong.
> Even though a two year contract with AT&T is required for iPhone in the US,
> the iPhone is not subsidized - the price is what it is.
My reading of the page is that the phone will not be subsidised *further* for their *employees* - ie there will not be any discount if you work for them and they have to pay the same as anyone else.
I do *not* read that as implying th
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My fear is that the pl
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nd yes, iPhone will work on any GSM carrier; that's the whole purpose of standards like GSM, and iPhone is a GSM phone.
While I wish this were true, if GSM standards demanded that phones worked on any GSM network, why are things like simlocking coming out which create phones which are locked to a specific carrier, just like CDMA?
I believe that GSM network owners hate that their phones will work anywhere, and that is why they're pushing for the capability to lock phones to their networks like what can b
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This is true; I'm speaking of what is possible for an unlocked iPhone from a technical perspective. It can and will work on any GSM network.
if GSM standards demanded that phones worked on any GSM network, why are things like simlocking coming out which create phones which are locked to a specific carrier, just like CDMA?
I'm saying that a GSM phone in general can work on any GSM network, not that a locked phone will. And simlocking isn't "coming out"; it's been standard practice fo
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And yes, iPhone will work on any GSM carrier; that's the whole purpose of standards like GSM, and iPhone is a GSM phone. Network-specific functionality (such as visual voicemail) will not work, but the phone and basic voicemail functionality, data functionality, etc., will absolutely work.
I believe you know much about the technical aspect of GSM, and yes GSM is a standard. However, that doesn't mean a GSM-compliant phone can connect to any mobile carriers without prior agreements.
For example, you cannot make a GSM-compliant phone and then plug your GSM SIM into it and talk. You simply couldn't connect to the carrier, they'd just reject to connect to your unrecognized mobile phone, unless you as a "mobile manufacturer" striked a deal with them in advance.
The mobile carriers must recogn
Re:Answer: yes (Score:4, Informative)
Sorry, that's just not so. I bought an unlocked Treo 650, stuck in my T-Mobile SIM (and T-Mobile does NOT offer the 650) and it Just Worked (tm) - like GSM is supposed to do.
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I moved to a Motorola v330 because I wanted to sync my phone information with my MacBook. I could never get the bluetooth on the MacBook to see the r520m's rudimentary implementation of bluetooth. (It was the proof-of-concept phone, dontcha know!) The v330 is cheap
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So...you made that Treo 650 yourself?
Or, Palm has already made deals with major mobile carriers prior to manufacture Treo 650?
You mixed up customer-level locking and mobile-level locking. The latter is done by manufacturers to register a unique identifier of a particular model of mobile phone with major mobile carri
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Huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
In the US, AT&T (Cingular) and T-Mobile are both GSM providers. Apple could have easily sold an unlocked phone to be used by those providers.
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I think they're just referring to the fact that this typically isn't done in the US, but they shouldn't imply this isn't possible, as manufacturers (such as Palm) already do sell unlocked GSM phones in the US.
Maybe, maybe not (Score:2)
So, I think AT&T will be offering more than one way to buy it, or perhaps Apple will at their stores. Whatever.
Not directed at the parent, but in terms of 3G - I have to say I couldn't really care less. Pretty much everywhere I will be, I will be in a WiFi zone. My work has ope
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The article is misinformed. (Score:4, Informative)
This is not an option for the US market because several providers do not use Sim cards, and because operators use different network standards that prevent the iPhone working on some networks.
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Apple could have made their product much more attractive to early-adopter buyers, and possibly even changed how cellphones are sold in the U.S., by selling it directly to consumers, unlocked. I know of a lot of people who are mildly intrigued by the iPhone -- enough that they'd at least consider it for their next phone, maybe even buy one if they had the option of returning i
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What the hell gave you that idea?
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I'm failing to see how merging calls is anything different than 3-way calling on cell networks, I haven't looked up conference calling per se, but It seems like something the phone itself should be able to do without the carrier's help. The ease of use of the iPhone interface just makes it appear like it's something new. I sometimes inadvertently hung up on one caller whil
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3-way calling is not "merging" anything, it's having an existing call and calling a third party. So yes, the network does have to add support for merging two existing calls into a single 3-way call. It's kind of amazing no cellular systems have supported this before now, it doesn't make any difference financially since they still get to bill for 2 calls simultaneously.
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The only reason that a GSM-based phone model would be unavailable without a simlock is that the manufacturer (Apple in this case) refuses to distribute it except through service providers.
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It would be more accurate to say "If Apple is pressured by the network providers to keep unlocked phones off the market".
As others have said, an unlocked GSM phone is an unlocked GSM phone. One little caveat here about European GSM, they use different frequency bands than the USA does. You have to have a 'Quad Band' GSM ph
Given the competition... (Score:5, Insightful)
I say this as someone who bought a couple of upper-crust Nokias (price comparable to estimates of the iPhone's cost) a couple of years ago and had no end of problems. It isn't that the hardware sucked, though there were several design flaws, but it's not like Apple are immune from those. It wasn't even that the software sucked. It was the sheer level of bureaucratic incompetence related to every after-sales interaction. Guarantees that mysteriously lapse on the UK guarantee lookup system. Phones replaced by grey market alternatives shipped in from Saudi Arabia that mysteriously don't qualify under the warranty at all. It is almost entirely impossible to communicate with Nokia themselves. The 'Nokia Shop' system - the Nokia-branded vendor through which these things are bought - are actually Mobile Phones Direct and have no relationship with Nokia at all. And of course the operator from whom one bought the contract holds no apparent responsibility. All this is advantageous to them - call them and tell them your £450 phone has broken and they'll point out that it's just about time for you to renew your contract and, hey, you're eligible for a phone upgrade. It is not in their interest to support the one you've just spent eighteen months paying for.
If I were trying to sell an upmarket mobile phone, especially one as expensive as the iPhone is likely to be, I'd be desperately looking for a way to handle all this which wouldn't equate Apple with the open invitation to open a case with Trading Standards that is the UK mobile industry. For whatever reason, Apple currently have a fairly good name when it comes to expensive-but-neat gadgets. Nothing loses the customer's trust like trying to figure out who in the system of phone operators, retail outlets and repair centres is responsible for fixing a broken mobile.
If it's not obvious from the above I'm actually rather hoping that Apple do take some responsibility for this product; if they do I might be inclined to buy one just to give myself and Trading Standards a break. You know you've got a problem when you discover you've been put on Trading Standards' Christmas card list.
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The experience you discuss in sorting it out is just typical of UK customer service within the mobile phone industry. Just like their fixed-line counterparts, mobile phone networks are run by a bunch of arrogant tossers whose attitu
Doesn't matter How much they'd make (Score:5, Insightful)
Secret moral of the story: (Score:3, Insightful)
Why we put up with it is a mystery to me.
Re:Secret moral of the story: (Score:4, Informative)
Oh, really?
T-Mobile UK charges £20 (~$40)
T-Mobile US charges the same $40 for 1000 minutes. You can make free calls at night and on the weekend. There's a 24-month contract when you buy a phone.
So, we're paying the same amount, but we're getting more than 5x as many minutes. Yes, we pay for incoming calls, but unless you recieve more than 4x as many calls as you make, you still come out ahead.
We pay less for text messages, less for GPRS, and we don't pay to call customer care. We also don't pay to roam anywhere in the US, which is 4x larger than Western Europe and just as populous.
We're getting screwed. But Europeans are getting screwed way, way more. The funny thing is that they don't seem to realize it - and they somehow believe that we're getting the short end of the stick.
My family is on a "family" plan. We pay $60/mo for three phones (about $25/mo per line), and although we only get 500 peak minutes, we make more than 6000 minutes of calls in a typical month. How? We don't pay to call each other (or anyone on the same provider, for that matter), and we don't pay to call at night or on the weekends.
You know what's even crazier? It's cheaper for me to make or recieive a call from France (99c/min) than it is for someone who has T-Mobile UK (55p/min).
Warped? Not exactly.
Huh? (Score:4, Informative)
Am I being screwed then?
There's more than T-Mobile USA to life (Score:3, Interesting)
In Germany, with T-Mobile, the plans [t-mobile.de] don't charge for incoming calls and are quite competitive.
You did know that different Europeam countries have different tarifs, didn't you? and you did know that no one here charegs you for incoming calls?
Or was this just another yay USA pissing match?
(T-Mobile is a German company, btw)
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Non-mystery science theater 3,000 (Score:5, Funny)
F' you AT&T!
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Cable Modem: $45/mo.
VoIP service: $25/mo.
iPhone: $3,000 in 24 installments and $600 down.
Cellular service with GSM carrier: $40/mo.
Saying f*** you to AT&T: priceless.
There are some things a free market can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard.
Think about it the other way (Score:3, Interesting)
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Looking at the growth of cell phone users of the last few years, two years is a long time in cell phone history terms. A network infrastructure that is adequate at one time may be undersized for a subscriber base a year or so later. Where will you be when your carrier can't handle all its customers and you're stuck in a contract?
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With customer service, stating such and being given either a significant credit on service or an "out" on the contract.
Both parties have to live up to their obligations in a contract. If they aren't, take them to small claims court (or something).
Operators are arrogant too (Score:5, Interesting)
No different with Canadian carriers (Score:2)
What I hope is that someone will find a way of unlocking the iPhone. It sucks when you think that you're slowly paying for the iPhone with your 1-2-3 years contract and t
Does it need to find a partner? (Score:3, Interesting)
And I know I'll get shot down for this, but I'm still not getting the whole iPhone vibe thing at all. It's a phone with a touchscreen. It doesn't have 3G, it has a pretty average camera and overall, it's a pretty bog-standard smartphone. Symbian and Windows Mobile devices have been out for ages, are well established with thousands of software titles, work well with corporate systems and are generally more feature-complete. In that sense, a lot of European carriers are probably wondering what the hell all the fuss is about.
Granted the iPhone has the whole iPod/iTunes thing going for it which I kinda like, but I'd wait until that touchscreen finds its way into a standalone iPod. While I'd like the iPhone to succeed, feature for feature, version 1 has already been surpassed here by the likes of the Nokia N95 and the Sony Ericsson W960i.
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I Don't Quite Understand What... (Score:2, Insightful)
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Simon.
closed system (Score:3, Informative)
The cell phone companies of course see the same thing happening with the iPhone. Apple does not always play be industry "wink wink nudge nudge'rules. It has had a big part in validating digital music delivery, and, for better or worse, we will see those deliveries be uninfected with DRM. What will the iphone do to the mobile phone industry. Render meaningless the contracts by which a phone user must use a certain service for email. Allow users to create thier own ring tones, as can already be done using a Mac and some cell phones. Nip in the bud the profitable music downloads over celluar networks before it even generates any significant revenue. Force major upgrades in bandwidth. Are the Europeans afraid that the iPhone will somehow undermine their excessive roaming charges? The United States, at twice the area, has inexpensive roam free plans, despite the relative backwater mobile technology.
Apple is pretty good about delivering disruptive technology. I am sure the only reason that ATT made the deal was to remain competitive with Verizon. I can't imagine it was a happy decision for them. I wonder if there is enough competition in the EU to force a carrier to do the same.
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In Europe you can buy almost any phone you want, stick a sim card in it and be on your way.
Enough already (Score:4, Interesting)
Apple just has to wait a couple weeks (Score:4, Insightful)
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Carriers aren't in the business to resell phones. Phones are just the means they use to sel their service.
European carries want you to buy their 3G connection and video capabilities.
Every sold iPhone means one more customer who won't buy their 3G service. And incidentally, because of the price of this device, it's exactly t
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I don't think it will be sold SIM-free (Score:4, Interesting)
Wouldn't this make AT&T's "exclusive" distribution agreement written on toilet paper? Everyone who didn't want get a long contract or use AT&T would just get the iPhone imported from Europe.
A more interesting question would be what Apple is going to do in those countries where it is illegal to lock a phone to a network or require a contract for it.
If there's going to be any "revolution" in the cell phone industry caused by the iPhone, it's how business is done U.S. cellular industry when the rest of the world is entirely different. I can't believe we still have to pay for incoming calls in the U.S.
iMslow (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe next version could manage do something sane.
I mean for networks in Europe the main selling point right now is data transfer. It is like revolution - real mobile Internet. Well iPhone does not catch that. People everywhere here use phones (via their laptops) to access Internet. You have like plenty of billboards, press adverts, TV commercials focusing on GSM data transfer abilities.
Well lets see what iPhone can do... uhm... it can do phone calls and text messaging - hmm. Like any other phone really. It is not a selling point. Right now in Poland (at belive me - it is not the most advanced country in Europe) the selling point is 4Mbps data transfer.
So concluding - there is not a market (beside of really small fashion accessory one) for iPhone unless it can work as all other phones on the market (do HDSPA and modern data transfer).
Re:iMslow (Score:5, Insightful)
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It's worse than you think.
The iPhone is a GPRS/EDGE device. EDGE can do 20KB/s in the best case, and 15KB/s is more typical.
Guess what, though? There's no EDGE in most of Europe. UMTS got p
Apple Arrogant? Cell carriers would know (Score:5, Informative)
Last phone I got was through Amazon. Why? Because it was almost $100 less than the same phone right from the carrier with the same plan. After rebates it cost me negative money ( not counting service ). How does Amazon do this? They get a cut for each customer they get to sign up or extend service. So the carriers are making the hardware look cheap and slipping money to the retailer.
This is part of the reason people said Apple was nuts to make a cell phone, the manufacturers have been getting squeezed for years. Apple instead said no, no discounts and they want the kickback for new contracts. The carriers have been making tons of money in the long run and Apple wants a piece of the action.
In reality, they don't need a partner. Europe has even more MVNOs than the U.S. They could buy minutes in bulk and sell the phones themselves. They may not want to, but they could.
A partner also isn't necessary for visual voicemail. All of these phones have internet access. I already use a 3rd party for my cell phone voicemail since it provides more features ( YouMail.com ) I have the option to get an SMS when I have voicemail that tells me who the message was from, and have it delivered via email as well as the indicator on my phone. It would not be hard for Apple to do the voicemail part themselves, independent of the carrier.
So the whole article is BS. By choosing GSM Apple has a phone than can be used in more countries than any other, and enabled with a new carrier just by slipping in a new SIM. By going with GSM they're out of the Broadcom/Qualcomm fight as well.
They have that option here as well... (Score:2)
They could do that here, sell a generic GSM phone. T-Mobile customers atleast would be able to use it.
Of course they did... (Score:2)
Of course they did, because they know that anyone will be able to dump their contracts with AT&T and Verizon will be there to offer ex AT&T iPhone customers with a competitive deal without having to make any concessions to Apple.
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iPhone is GSM. Verizon is CDMA. I don't think Verizon is going to see much in the way of iPhone business anytime soon.
As far as Apple arrogance goes, I can actually almost picture Apple telling Verizon, "We'd love for you to be our exclusive iPhone partner in the U.S.! There are a few conditions
Prediction (Score:3, Interesting)
in Europe, it would be a huge flop. This phone can
be a hit in Europe only if Apple reduces the price
by 25% atleast & sells it unlocked. The US is the
only place where such an expensive locked phone
can possibly sell huge numbers. But this time I
think even in the US, iPhone is not going to be
a huge hit - at best it would be a moderate success
at current price levels.
Not another iPhone story (Score:3, Interesting)
1. If you go to Tokoyo, you will find most people walking round with a 3G/4G phone in one hand and an ipod in the other. The iPod has massive market penetration in Japan; the iPhone will when lanuched in Japan will have a large potential market. However, the previous generation of mobile phones (i.e. those before 3G) are totally incompatible with GSM. This is the main reason while the Asian market will have to wait until the battery technology improves.
2. 3G phones are still massive in size and have poor battery consumption when compared with GSM, hence the 3G version of the Mototrola V3 RAZR is almost twice the thickness of the GSM version. Europeans have a tendancy to go for smaller, more stylish phones, hence market penetration of 3G phones is fairly low. There are older members of the European population that like bigger phones, but they also don't like lots of technical functions; they are not in the market for an iPhone.
3. Most of the rest of the World have GSM, but 3G support is not consistent.
4. There are many phone users in European countries that now use pay as you go phone packages. This is because of the stupid attitude of mobile phone operators with regard to roaming charges for different countries; something the EU has recently tried to resolve. As the people whom are likely to buy an iPhone in Europe are likely to be those that travel a lot, having an unlocked phone will probably be a competitive advantage.
5. If I select an ISP, for my broadband connection, why should I be restricted to which model of computer I should use? Surely it is much better to buy a phone and then buy a contract for data/phone calls separately?
From a European point of view (Score:4, Insightful)
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And you're correct: the only feature loss would be "visual voicemail", but "normal" voicemail functionality and all other phone features, as applicable, should absolutely work.
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That quote is far from clear, IMO. I read it to mean that it isn't subsidised *further* for AT&T employees, and it has no relevance for the market price.
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Almost every country in Europe has spawned more than one operator, most having been state sponsored monopolies in the past. Thus their problem would be the prefora of operators they'd need to make deals with to cover the whole of Europe.
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So, when september comes and goes without an openmoko release, it'll be vapor. I'm still hopeful, and maybe thats clouding my judgement on the subject... but wouldn't it be neat to have a phone like that?
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TBD (Score:2)
OpenMoko Exists (Score:4, Informative)
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They could sell it without SIM locking, and by Bob I hope they do it in Europe, but you'd only ever reach half of the market. My guess is that it's least suspicious to just do it the way things are usually done in the US - just tie it to a carrier. Nevermind the free market and stuff like that.
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