The Newton O.S. Creeps Toward New Hardware 278
GraWil writes "As previously reported, the Apple Newton refuses to die! The Worldwide Newton Conference 2004 has wrapped up (photos) and, thanks to Paul Guyot, there is real hope for an emulator. His talk, titled 'Newton never dies, It only gets new hardware,' describes and shows the Einstein Emulator, that will eventually allow the Newton OS to be built and run on top of Unix. Will your next Linux PDA boot Newton OS next year?"
My question is... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:My question is... (Score:5, Informative)
The Newton used a 16-25 MHz or so ARM, and even then it lagged quite a bit. The final models (before Steve killed it) had 166 MHz or so CPUs. The Palm has a 16 MHz 68000, so there's no chance there. On the other hand, modern PDAs (PocketPC, Palm ARM, Zaurus) use 200+ MHz ARM CPUs, so they ought to run the Newton OS in an emulator environment with no trouble at all. The important part is the total lack of need for CPU emulation.
Re:My question is... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:My question is... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:My question is... (Score:3, Informative)
Newton on Amiga (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Newton on Amiga (Score:2, Offtopic)
I'm still waiting for my Timex-Sinclair 1000 emulator that runs on my Commodore 64.
There's so much that I've been planning to do and I'm been waiting for such a long time.
However, if you have Atari ST programs that you want to run on the Windows PC, the STeem emulator works quite well. There were a lot of MIDI synthesizer programs published only for the Atari ST. For exampl
Re:Newton on Amiga (Score:3, Funny)
I'm holding out for a version of NewtonOS that runs under version 3.0 of AmigaOS running under emulation on my Atari ST.
Not geeky enough. You should be running an Atari ST emulator on a hacked Xbox running Linux.
Re:Newton on Amiga (Score:2)
Re:Newton on Amiga (Score:3, Funny)
Yes.
Re:Nesting emulators (Score:3, Informative)
Still viable (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Still viable (Score:4, Insightful)
Add in the ability to link different pieces of data (so if I have an appointment with somebody I can tap that person's name to bring up their contact info, and also include a link to a checklist of stuff I need to get done for that meeting, for example), and my Palm handheld might livie up to its name as a personal digital assistant rather than being a glorified address book and e-book reader.
Re:Still viable (Score:3, Interesting)
By contrast my shiny Sony Clie for all it's power is more or less a photo album for digital stills I keep on my memory card. While it will read PDFs and Office docs, it's slow and awkward to get to fit on the screen. I can only really sync it to
Damn. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Damn. (Score:4, Informative)
GNUton Etc. (Score:5, Interesting)
It's good to hear about the Einstein Emulator. I wonder what happened to the GNUton project [sourceforge.net]; it seemed to be working in the same direction and as far as I know actually got a bootable system running through the magic of Python. Granted, there's been no status update since 2000, but I've certainly seen free software projects go dormant longer.
Recently Newton's Library [newtonslibrary.org] has gone live again; I'm one of the volunteer librarians. If anyone is interested in helping out, let me know. The Newton MessagePad is a great device for reading e-books, and the potential of new hardware certainly can't hurt.
One of the most underrated technological devices (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, people never gave it a second chance. The 2000 and 2100, the final models of the Newton had excellent handwriting recognition and a faster processor that was pretty darned fast for the applications the Newton ran.
I'm glad to see holdouts trying to keep the heart beating. With the technology available today, a screamingly fast Newton could be housed in something no larger than your typical Palm. And that mid-90s software is BETTER than today's PalmOS.
Oh, and Graffiti SUCKS!
Re:One of the most underrated technological device (Score:2, Redundant)
Re:One of the most underrated technological device (Score:5, Interesting)
worked like a charm!
Re:One of the most underrated technological device (Score:3, Interesting)
Uhm. Assuming you mean "textbooks", rather than "copies of Donald Knuth's manual for TeX"... how did your Newton replace textbooks? Did you transcribe whole books onto your Newton for easy reference?
I'd've thought that the old-tech equivalent of a Newton is a pen and a slim folder of writing paper, which probably weighs about as much as a Newton, *and* doesn't run out of battery power, *and* lets you
Re:One of the most underrated technological device (Score:2)
Graffiti was up to the task, but I wouldn't dream of trying it in Graffiti 2. Little things like having to pause for a full second before putting a space after a word ending in L have destroyed my ability to jot notes without thinking about it.
Re:One of the most underrated technological device (Score:4, Interesting)
So yeah. Maybe I would have preferred graffiti on my H1000
NewtonOS Clone? (Score:5, Interesting)
i, not being a programmer myself, cannot fathom the complexity of writing such an OS, perhaps. but it makes more sense, to me atleast, to take what everyone seems to love about the old software and move on to a new one.
anyone care to explain how hard it would to write an entire new OS for a PDA (similar to that of Newton's) ?
Re:NewtonOS Clone? (Score:2)
Fans of the Newton acknowledge it's perfection (Score:5, Interesting)
I have a 2100 and also was an early adopter of the Palm series (had an original palm pro, a palm three, then got a visor deluxe, then a clié -- depsite the clié's higher resolution and jog wheel, I gave it up and went back to the visor). I haven't bothered to move on to the Zire line because... although graffiti is usable, it just sucks compared to the -- let me stress this again -- awesome recognition of the Newton MP. I know there are some folks out there working on embedded GTK interfaces, can any of you let me know where HWR is at on the embedded Linux scene?
So, the reason no one is 're-writing' a clone OS of the Newton is the unfeasibility of creating, from a hobbyist public domain vector a platform as perfectly suited to the PDA as the Newton OS. I am enamoured with tablet computing... I even have one of the first IBM Thinkpads (Type 2524, all screen, no keyboard). Which you could say is loosely a sibling of the same era. It uses Windows 95 with the 'Pen Computing' crap (since the Pen Windows or whatever was killed). The recognition is horrible. And that's with a 486DX, which should arguably have more horsepower than the ARM the Newton's had.
Anyway, I know this post goes no where in specific but here's the main thrust: I have used basically every pen based system that has been commercially available. The Newton MP 2100 was the most elegant and useful of any of these. If Newton had survived Jobs re-emergence, or had been spun off, we would all have 3"x5"x.5", color, 180dpi, nearly edge to edge screen, pressure sensitive, useful, intelligent PDAs with HWR as good, or better, than the MP's for probably a lower price point than the original MP's. I'm thinking like $350. I would die for that.
Oh, and let me say too... That ThinkPad is cool, I still sketch on it in Photoshop 3.5 with it, but the HWR is horrible. Damn you Microsoft. I just don't see why the whole industry just freaked out and let HWR wallow for so long. Even Ink in OS X isn't as good as the Newton HWR.
Let the rebuttals fly!
Re:Fans of the Newton acknowledge it's perfection (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Fans of the Newton acknowledge it's perfection (Score:5, Informative)
Unlike the cursive recognizer, which was developed in Russia, the Rosetta engine was written and developed in-house by Apple. If you do a search, I think that you can still find the ACM papers written by the guys who developed the engine. It's an interesting mix of Neural Nets, traditional HWR, and dictionary based guessing of the words.
Re:Fans of the Newton acknowledge it's perfection (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:NewtonOS Clone? (Score:2)
I always thought you'd get Shakespeare's works by doing so...
let id die... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:let id die... (Score:3, Interesting)
Sorta Newton related... (Score:2)
What I want is something that has some decent screen real estate so I can use it for document review (both text and - maybe - images), do basic internet stuff, like limited webbrowsing email and chat, and also some basic PDA type stuff like note taking/c
Re:Sorta Newton related... (Score:2)
You might want to check out the old Fujitsu Stylistic [ebay.com] line of tablet PCs. I've heard good things about them from some of the people I work with. A fully loaded used one can be had for under $350 (450MHz range).
Re:Sorta Newton related... (Score:2)
I spose a P3 450 is quite a bit faster than a G3 400-500, plus its got a touch screen...
Re:Sorta Newton related... (Score:2)
Unfortunately, they're very rare, as one of the bigger retailers appears to have gone out.
Re:Sorta Newton related... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Sorta Newton related... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Sorta Newton related... (Score:2)
Re:Sorta Newton related... (Score:2)
It's smaller than a DVD case (7.3"x3.7"x1.3"), is a clamshell type design with a 75% normal size keyboard on the bottom half and a 640x240 res 6.5" 16bit color screen on the upper half. The screen is touch sensitive, and the unit runs WinCE 3.0 (which to my suprise looks alot more like Win95 than PocketPC). Runs on a 206mhz StrongAR
The Einstein Emulator (Score:4, Funny)
Lucas, Meet Jobs. Jobs, meet Lucas. (Score:5, Insightful)
What gives?
The only other person besides Jobs who so fearlessly tells a fan base to go collectively screw themselves is Lucas. Being a very technical user who has 2 mac laptops, a G5 desktop and an iPod, I could definitely put a Newton device to good use.
I can only hope that Apple current dealings with Motorola's cellular device division is working on an intigrated OS X compatable PDA for the iPhone to allow users to bluetooth and/or websynch (.mac account?) data from iTunes, Mail.app, Calandar and AddressBook.
Re:Lucas, Meet Jobs. Jobs, meet Lucas. (Score:5, Informative)
The reason, wich is widely regarded as truth, that Jobs killed the newton is pure retaliation against Scully.
John Scully invented the concept and drove the outcome as the Newton shortly after he had fired Jobs in their power feud of mid 80s. Scully had killed the Lisa and Jobs took over the Mac not to be empty-handed. When Jobs was back at the helm of Apple, he was just pleased at destroying the Newton rather than building on it. To this day, Jobs keep dismissing PDAs altogether while telling everyone that phones will inherit the futur. What does he do next? A frickin' music player.
Jobs has done a lot of good stuff for Apple since his come-back. But the Newton murder wasn't one of them. Marry Newton OS and the iPod and then you start having something interesting. But ego makes this product impossible. Or highly improbable.
Re:Lucas, Meet Jobs. Jobs, meet Lucas. (Score:2)
However I never mentioned the Skully/Jobs adversity, though it did come to mind. However, being a high level contractor, I know how such petty drama takes life of it's own in a corporate atmosphere... lord knows, I've seen the demise of one director to be passed on to the next or on the extreme occassion I've gone from one CTO to the next. In all circumstances, most have tried to suplant the predecessors goals with their own (which can bring forth my contracts termination through n
Re:Lucas, Meet Jobs. Jobs, meet Lucas. (Score:3, Interesting)
Not to mention that the Newton brandname was pretty much dirt at that point. Even though the later models were nice, people though of the thing as a big joke. A Palm Pilot was the cool thing to have, not a Newton.
Plus you
more to the point (Score:2)
Re:Lucas, Meet Jobs. Jobs, meet Lucas. (Score:2)
And while I agree with all your point, and can even give small link to validate your comment [depaul.edu], would it be so hard for Apple to Open Source the entire Newton OS and not just the toolkit??? Or is that asking too much? Sounds like Jobs just hedging the bet at everyones expense.
Re:Lucas, Meet Jobs. Jobs, meet Lucas. (Score:2)
Re:Lucas, Meet Jobs. Jobs, meet Lucas. (Score:2, Informative)
B) High R&D investment required to get it up to modern standards
C) Virtually Zero installed base, zero app programmers. Only demand is from the Apple Freak crowd, who is just as likely buy a highly profitable VideoPod (etc) with their $500.
Re:Lucas, Meet Jobs. Jobs, meet Lucas. (Score:2, Informative)
Newton history (Score:3, Informative)
If you look on eBay, you can find Newton-branded Newtons as well as pure Apple-branded ones.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I agree. (Score:3, Interesting)
The customer doesn't go out and buy new software to run on an iPod; the customer buys more songs. There is no courting of third-party developers for the iPod. At the moment...
iPod + cellPhone + newton + digiCam + camCorder in one pocket-sized box. How cool would that be?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Lucas, Meet Jobs. Jobs, meet Lucas. (Score:2)
Re:Lucas, Meet Jobs. Jobs, meet Lucas. (Score:5, Informative)
That is just untrue. Steve has said that he could have saved Newton, but that he didn't have the management talent to do it. I believe that was just part of the story. The Newton group was working on StrongArm based products before things were killed. The StrongArm was a part of DEC that was acquired by Intel (When they picked up the Alpha technology & Engineers), at that point in time, Intel wasn't really sure what they wanted to do with it. It would have been insane for Apple to spend time rebuilding a business when they didn't know if it's major supplier was going to keep manufacturing. I was the last person hired into the Newton team.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Lucas, Meet Jobs. Jobs, meet Lucas. (Score:2)
Or has Jobs just beenn hedging his bets?
I do not disagree with his stance on cellphones, but rather -- the closed door attitude and let die attitude from a "open source" advocate.
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Lucas, Meet Jobs. Jobs, meet Lucas. (Score:2)
As for your points, they are quite weak.
-- 1) finding the code,
"uhhh yeah, it might on some CD in a box, in a dwarer in the basdement of one of our campus facilities" is not an answer you'd ever get from a software centric corporation EVER.
It might take them an hour or two to dig it up at most. But don't fool yourself into thinking they buried away anything that contains ant form of intellectual property.
2) determining whether it embodies any pate
Re: (Score:2)
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Re:Lucas, Meet Jobs. Jobs, meet Lucas. (Score:2)
sorry.. I do prefer to be more personal, but most you guys sound alike.
RE: Newton then and now (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, that certainly didn't happen. Heck, the entire time I owned a Palm device, I think I only had one opportunity to "beam" someone's con
Re:Lucas, Meet Jobs. Jobs, meet Lucas. (Score:2)
And I should add that the iPod will never be a full PDA since the "pad" is a very limited point of user input.
I hate to sound condescening, but please read the entire post and put it into context.
Letting a user base hang for years on end without any support it a very harsh tact to take. But not one I find surprising from Apple. But since when does a little sympathy for the neglected mean failure to see the pat
Re:--- PLEASE READ BEFORE REPLYING ---- (Score:3)
A much better link (Score:5, Informative)
Turns out to be quite the interesting talk.
more from the conference:
http://wwnc.newtontalk.net/program/
Sniff, whats that I smell? (Score:3, Insightful)
Good to hear the Newton isn't dead yet, I still have my 130 and 110s, sold my 2100 a while back however (the things where selling used for as much as a notebook PC, I just couldn't resist).
the question is (Score:2)
NewtonScript & memory management (Score:5, Interesting)
One thing which would make emulating a Newton difficult is the memory management. It used an incredibly fine-grained MMU. I can't remember the page size, but basically it did mark-compact garbage collection, and did the compact bit by just shuffling page mappings in the MMU! Very neat, but difficult to fake efficiently on other hardware.
Re:NewtonScript (Lisp?) (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:NewtonScript (Lisp?) (Score:3, Informative)
NewtonScript is based on templates rather than the traditional class-based object protocol derived from Simula (the one model many C++/Java/C# programmers associate with "object orientation").
Practicing those alternative language make you feel very restricted when you come back to more mainstream languages. I really encourage you to l
Re: (Score:2)
Re:NewtonScript (Lisp?) (Score:3, Informative)
In NewtonScript, objects are dictionaries which hash arbitrary things, each keyed by a Lisp-like symbol. The symbols are the slot names in the object. Functions stored in the objects, when called as methods on the object, automatically have access to a variable called this which refers to the object itself, and their scope automatically includes the object. A particular sy
Data soup (Score:3, Interesting)
The Newton, the Canon Cat, the shareware word processor Yeah Write, all had some kind of system where the user didn't need to worry about files. (I don't really know enough about the Newton data soup to comment on how similar or dissimilar these all were to it.)
The only project along these lines that I know of is Gnome Storage [gnome.org].
steveha
Re:Data soup (Score:4, Informative)
This system is incredibly powerful because all sorts of data ends up linked to other sorts of data. It is possible to find all of the e-mails that have been sent to you by a particular person or a bit of text stored in a note you got passed by someone. The Newton through its soups had content searches far before things like Sherlock or Spotlight.
Re:Data soup (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd love to see Apple PDAs (Score:5, Interesting)
Cheers,
Adolfo
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I'd love to see Apple PDAs (Score:2)
Re:I'd love to see Apple PDAs (Score:3, Insightful)
I'll keep posting this until I have one!!! (Score:4, Interesting)
CompactFlash for Music and Storage (microdrive)
1 Zaurus SL-C860 for touchscree display, keyboard, Linux (Or FreeBsd/OsX)
add Ethernet, Bluetooth, and 802.11b/g
Full day battery(8 hrs) battery life with user replacable, standard AA NiMH batteries
Support and a vendor supported dev. community
Stir Vigoriously, pour into a sub $600 package
Sell hundreds of thousands of units!!!
What's that smell (Score:4, Funny)
LS
Missing the Point (Score:4, Interesting)
Einstein, if we're lucky, will give us the chance to have our cake and eat it too. And trust me, the Linux-on-a-PDA folks would be very very lucky to have the myriad of high-quallity Newton apps running on their boxen. Beats the snot out of the crap running on Yopis right now, that's fore sure.
Sign me up! (Score:4, Insightful)
But you know what would be enough for me? If somebody would port something like the Newton's notepad to PalmOS. I haven't used a notepad app that even comes close. I really liked the whole application suite on NewtonOS, but in particular the way you could switch between handwriting recognition, sketches, outlines, and checklists so easily really got me hooked on PDAs.
Jobs *is* finally right in 2004: smrtfons not PDAs (Score:4, Insightful)
It's natural successor is the smart-phone concept--or, in other words, the "everything-a-PDA-was-ever-supposed-to-be-PLUS-A-
In those old Newton days, the PDA concept worked (witness the Palms, etc.) but whatever, Apple was hemhorraging money, Jobs hated Sculley and wanted to kill his baby, he just didn't get it, or blah blah blah. Whatever, man. Water under bridge.
He may not have been right then, but he is now. These devices MUST have cell phone built in (which, conveniently, also comes with wireless 'net access).
Apple obviously realizes this, because Jobs admitted to analysts that Apple recently took a new PDA all the way to the functional prototype stage, but decided not to market it. Of course!! Who would want a modern version of the Newton without wireless Internet and phone? Not very many people.
(The obvious counterpoint is that a *LOT* of people would want a smart phone with the elegance of the Newton but smaller color hardware....)
Those Newton freaks are right, you know; there *still* is nothing even half as cool as the Newton OS in the handheld space...)
I want a tablet Mac! (Score:3, Interesting)
However, I still to this day use my Newton. Sure I have started to use the iPaq a little more out of convenience (it syncs with my employer's Outlook) but it just means that I now use two PDAs; everything else is done on my Newton.
I've tried the Palm and Pocket PC as replacements but they are just lacking. I still continue to carry my Newton with me along with my laptop and my iPaq.
Honestly though, I would like to get rid of it. I love the functionality but the hardware is aging. Batteries are nearly impossible to find. I know that any sort of repair service is out of the question.
What I would like is a tablet Mac. This could not only replace the Newton but my laptop as well. All the functionality of the Newton and the Mac OSX would be It may even be able to replace the iPaq, which would really be great. Then I think about how a tablet PC could replace my laptop and my iPaq and wonder how long I can wait.
Unfortunately, the only thing stopping me from purchasing a tablet Mac is that Apple doesn't make them. Apple needs to realize that if they don't start releasing tablet Macs then the people who want a tablet system will go to Microsoft. Sadly, many of the people who do want a tablet system are the geeks, artists, and educators who traditionally fall into the Apple camp.
Re:To be honest... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's kind of unfair judging the entire Newton line based on the original model.
It's a little like saying that Windows XP sucks (not for all the obvious reasons) because you've used Windows 1.0 (or even 3.1) and dislike all its limitations.
Re:To be honest... (Score:2)
I think the whole point is (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, if your entire exposure to the Newton OS was on a 1.0 device, IMHO, you've missed out on what the real draw is vis-a-vis the capabilities of the later MessagePads & eMate.
Re:Your point on the eMate is valid, given (Score:2)
Why, yes it can, with the help of Bluetooth devices
Re:Your point on the eMate is valid, given (Score:2)
Re:Is it OpenSource? (Score:3, Informative)
Also - they've seen other open source developments for the newton go south - to