Toshiba Pursues Copyright Claim Against Laptop Manual Site 268
An anonymous reader writes "I'm sure most Slashdot readers have had occasion to suffer through a hardware manufacturer's terrible website in search of product documentation. It's often hidden away in submenus of submenus, and if your product is more than a couple years old, you probably have to wade through broken links. One guy has been helping to change that; he runs a site called Tim's Laptop Service Manuals, where he collects by hand materials from many different companies and hosts them together in one spot. Now Toshiba has become aware of his project, and helpfully forced him to remove all of their manuals under a copyright claim."
Toshiba to Customers: Drop dead. (Score:3, Insightful)
But I'm sure we'll now see a flood of posts from the clueless about how Toshiba "has to defend their patent or lose it".
Re:Toshiba to Customers: Drop dead. (Score:5, Informative)
Copyright and patents are two vastly different beasts.
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Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
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Begone vile grammar nazi! Unless you intend to enlighten us with the finer points of the art of prose, begone!
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Yeah! were no need four you're grammer and spelling wer'e alot fine and you can'tell what w'ere saying because grammer is'nt needed nemoar.
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Yeah! were no need four you're grammer and spelling wer'e alot fine and you can'tell what w'ere saying because grammer is'nt needed nemoar.
ur way 2 vrboz 4 th sms gen
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Of course a hungry man will eat a beast. Oh, you meant hungry man-eating beasts! Now do all of you see the importance of writing correctly?
Having read your post, I also see the importance of not being a dickhead on the internet.
Re:Toshiba to Customers: Drop dead. (Score:4, Insightful)
But... you obviously didn't.
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Actually, I'm pretty sure he meant, "hungry, man-eating beasts".
Now do all of you see the importance of a comma?
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Actually, I'm pretty sure he meant, "hungry, man-eating beasts". Now do all of you see the importance of a comma?
Don't use commas, which aren't necessary.
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I'm pretty sure that was the point of his post. People are always mixing up copyright and patents in the comments section.
Re:Toshiba to Customers: Drop dead. (Score:5, Insightful)
(But regarding your body text, I'm sure there will be some clueless parroting of "information wants to be free" too.)
I'm curious - could individuals host single pages, under the Fair Use doctrine? If you have enough individuals doing that, ones who don't forbid an aggregator from reframing their content (whilst hosting none itsef),
(And this could be the true use for "Anonymous", not their braindead LOIC DDoS attempts.)
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(But regarding your body text, I'm sure there will be some clueless parroting of "information wants to be free" too.)
[...]
I'm curious - could individuals host single pages, under the Fair Use doctrine?
Who is more clueless, the one parroting, "Information wants to be free", or the one calling those folks clueless while advocating the same?
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Those with a working brain will have noticed thatI do not throw around meaningless tropes, attempting to personify inanimate non-objects. Those wishing to say that it's hard to stop information propagating once it's reached the masses have much more meaningful alternative ways of expressing that idea.
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I'm curious - could individuals host single pages, under the Fair Use doctrine? If you have enough individuals doing that, ones who don't forbid an aggregator from reframing their content (whilst hosting none itsef), ...
That would be missing the point. As a manufacturer, you should be glad if your documentation is widely available. I could understand checksumming your PDF files and checking that, because you wouldn't want modified documentation, but what Toshiba does looks stupid to me.
Of course Toshiba has the copyright, and I could understand using that copyright to prevent modified derivatives. But why on earth would you want to prevent original documentation from being distributed?
Re:Toshiba to Customers: Drop dead. (Score:4, Funny)
I'm curious - could individuals host single pages, under the Fair Use doctrine? If you have enough individuals doing that, ones who don't forbid an aggregator from reframing their content (whilst hosting none itsef), ...
Sure, you'd also need to hash the entire manual and compare the hash key every time someone downloads the manual, to make sure none of those pages got corrupted/modified in the process. While you're at it, you'll probably also need some kind of tracker to aggregate the list of manuals and aggregate the list of pages everyone makes available separately.
And why limit it to single pages? You could split up each manual into a thousand different data packets, and you could make sure multiple people have a copy of the same data packets, to build some redundancy into the system, just in case some of the volunteers' servers/computers are not online 24/7.
This is a great idea, that could potentially revolutionize the web.
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Patents must be defended when challenges. Trademarks must be protected to remain. However, copyright is inherent in creating the work in most western laws.
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Re:Toshiba - Leading Innovation! (Score:2)
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Unfortunately it also auto-disables the touchpad whenever I enable wireless (which is not that often, so not a big problem for me).
Re:Toshiba - Leading Innovation! (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Toshiba to Customers: Drop dead. (Score:5, Informative)
1- It is not clueless to say they have to defend their patent or lose it. That's how it works. You lose patent and trademark protection if you don't try to defend any infringement you know about.
Try again. Trademark works that way since trademark is basically perpetual. Patent protection doesn't work that way, though it should, since it'd take care of a lot of submarine patents and patent trolls who wait until a product is big to sue. So yeah, still clueless.
2- This isn't about patent, it is about copyright. They are different.
On this we agree. But again, at the same time, copyright still doesn't get affected by attempts of enforcement. Only trademark does.
3- You can hate the current copyright laws, but that doesn't mean someone who acknowledges them is clueless.
The irony in that statement is hilarious given the above.
4- Don't buy products from manufacturers who play this game. Do your research before purchasing.
Noble gesture. Not sure it'll make even a dent in their bottom line, but noble nonetheless and something I try to do myself.
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4- Don't buy products from manufacturers who play this game. Do your research before purchasing.
When I was in support, I had all sorts of Toshiba repair manuals. They were from the Toshiba web site, and were available and supported. When I bought my Toshiba, I didn't know that they had moved to anti-manual. I had done my research, but the company changed the rules without notification.
shame (Score:2)
Re:shame (Score:5, Informative)
They used to. It started to get a bit less reliable somewhere around the 3000 series. At this point they're yet another PC manufacturer short on ideas with a legal department that considers customer hostility a good thing. It seems a common problem when a company grows enough to hire administrative people who aren't involved with the products.
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How is a company defending a legitimate copyright imply anything about the quality of their machines.
We are all about enforcement of the GPL to protect our rights in the free software movement, yet when a company uses EXACTLY the same laws that give us the freedom to choose alternate software everyone gets up-in-arms about the big bad business pursuing a claim against someone who has essentially stolen their copyrighted work and is using it to make money?
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Information just wants to be free...as long as it's not GPLed.
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It implies that even if they make decent machines, you don't want to buy from them because they will use their legal rights to make your life more difficult.
Thanks, but if there's a less hostile option, I'll take it.
Re:shame (Score:5, Insightful)
*He does have a donate button. I don't think that means his site rises to the level of a commercial enterprise but I wouldn't defend that position if you disagree. But I would still think it in the interest of Toshiba's customers (and Toshiba) to let him do this.
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It doesn't tell you anything directly about the quality of heir machines, but it does tell you about their attitudes towards their customers, namely "screw you".
The fact that they have the right to screw their customers doesn't mean people don't have a right to criticize them for it.
The outcome for the user is the key (Score:3, Insightful)
First off, copying is not theft [gnu.org]. You're making an appeal to authority without considering what that authority says. As the FSF points out, "Unauthorized copying is forbidden by copyright law in many circumstances (not all!), but being forbidden doesn't make it wrong. In general, laws don't define right and wrong. Laws, at their best, attempt to implement justice. If the laws (the implementation) don't fit our ideas of right and wrong (the spec), the laws are what should change.".
Second, the key to underst
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We are all about enforcement of the GPL to protect our rights in the free software movement, yet when a company uses EXACTLY the same laws that give us the freedom to choose alternate software everyone gets up-in-arms about the big bad business pursuing a claim against someone who has essentially stolen their copyrighted work and is using it to make money?
I don't think anybody says Toshiba doesn't have the right to do this, but their action doesn't help Toshiba nor their customers in any way and therefore is stupid.
Vote with your wallet (Score:2)
Re:Vote with your wallet (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh, I dunno about that. I think they're thinking that a) if you can't find the manual, you'll be forced to upgrade sooner (and, incumbant advantage here: if you have a Toshiba, you're probably more likely to pick Toshiba again), and b) by removing the old documentation, they're probably hoping their competition will have a harder time using old documentation against them (e.g., documented limitations, workarounds, whatever). By not being forced to upgrade, they're losing money. By allowing their competition more time to put out laptops better than Toshiba's old laptops and being able to quote their past failures, they're losing money to their competitors.
Either that, or they have a fresh-outta-school lawyer who has not learned that his job involves "marketing".
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Toshiba may just not care about the consumer market because they have enough exclusive, or nearly so, contracts with large corporations, and/or, they probably didn't think through the wide publicity that a stupid move like this would generate.
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If i couldn't find the manual because the company website was crap, i would be looking to buy a different brand as a replacement. With the exception of Apple, there is very little brand loyalty with laptops - they are all pretty much equivalent and easily swappable.
It's not like it's costing them sales (Score:2)
Sure it is, as if you can fix minor isues with the service manual, you wont have to go buy a new one from them.
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It's probable that the people who have the power and desire to reverse this decision hadn't heard about it until now.
Re:Vote with your wallet (Score:4, Insightful)
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That fraction of 1% probably includes a lot of independent service shops (who know how to use Google). And now they will have to tell customers that their Toshiba is not repairable. The customer may never know why, but it will leave a bad taste in their mouth.
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How is their Toshiba not repairable because a single site no longer hosts these manuals? It's trivially easy to get these manuals straight from Toshiba at almost no cost.
Thanks Toshiba! (Score:2, Interesting)
My present laptop is a Toshiba. Now I know to avoid them when buying my next. There's such a big selection these days, I love it when a company makes my life easier!
Going out of business (Score:2)
Clearly, Toshiba does not want anybody to use their products any more.
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Clearly, Toshiba does not want anybody to fix their own products any more.
There. Fixed that for you.
I can't remember the last time the lack of a repair manual has kept me from operating a device.
Thanks, Toshiba (crosses off purchase list) (Score:5, Insightful)
I understand copyright law, and that what this guy is doing is pretty clearly in violation of it, however:
1) the manuals are useless unless you have already bought Toshiba products, so people downloading the manuals are mostly likely your paying customers anyway
2) support is an important aspect of my purchasing decisions, and having easy access to technical manuals makes a big difference, especially for laptops, where getting into them to replace parts or fix things is particularly tricky
3) if people need to resort to a 3rd-party website to get the manual, then you need to fix YOUR site
4) why not get together with other laptop computer manufacturers and SUPPORT the guy in his efforts, rather than discouraging him?
Re:Thanks, Toshiba (crosses off purchase list) (Score:5, Informative)
“The manuals are only available to Toshiba authorised service providers under strict confidentiality agreements.” “It is not our company policy to grant authorisation for the use or reproduction of Toshiba manuals to anyone who is not an authorised Toshiba service provider.”
Re:Thanks, Toshiba (crosses off purchase list) (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not so sure I want to buy anything from a company that considers repairs to be a profit center. Too much conflict of interest.
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That sounds like a good reason to avoid Toshiba.
I know that what they are doing is legal. It is at least arguable that it is ethical. It is undoubtable, however, that it is hostile to a group of customers. Or, possibly now, ex-customers. Or at least ex-potential customers. (I don't suppose that would be sufficient grounds to go through the hassle of returning an already purchased machine. Merely grounds not to buy one.)
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ad 4) It is not in Toshiba's interest to run behind 3rd-party sites to make sure they update their outdated manuals.
Also, we have this thing called the "web", which is built by making so-called "links".
Every company, and Toshiba too, has a website where you can select your model and download its manual. Directly from the manufacturer.
https://uk.computers.toshiba-europe.com/innovation/download_manuals.jsp [toshiba-europe.com]
I can see why you would want for yourself a folder with the laptops you repair, but it's unnecessary to r
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Also, we have this thing called the "web", which is built by making so-called "links".
And once the link is a few years old, you can be almost certain that it will be dead. Links are a really shitty way when you want to make sure things stay available.
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ad 4) It is not in Toshiba's interest to run behind 3rd-party sites to make sure they update their outdated manuals.
Also, we have this thing called the "web", which is built by making so-called "links".
Every company, and Toshiba too, has a website where you can select your model and download its manual. Directly from the manufacturer.
https://uk.computers.toshiba-europe.com/innovation/download_manuals.jsp [toshiba-europe.com]
I can see why you would want for yourself a folder with the laptops you repair, but it's unnecessary to redistribute.
That said, there is no real reason manuals shouldn't be CC BY-ND or at least CC BY-NC-ND.
I do not think the "manuals" this website was offering are the same "manuals" which you can get via that link. There is a certain difference between an end-user manual (i.e. "do not microwave this notebook or feed it to your dog") and a REPAIR manual, which describes in detail how to access and replace the motherboard and which screws have to be removed in which order to do so.
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5) It's copyright, not trademark--by allowing continued infringement they would give up no rights against other infringers, nor other uses of the manuals, nor even against this guy if in the future they changes their mind or he does something that offends them more.
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Unless.... (Score:2)
Toshiba charges $49 for warranty call, $29 for box (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Toshiba charges $49 for warranty call, $29 for (Score:4, Informative)
more and more common. I got a motherboard from gigabyte that gave black screens during XP install. they said if I sent it in and they decided it wasn't their fault I'd have to pay hourly. a BIOS update several revs down fixed the problem. Not buying from them again...
I had meant to research to see if this violates (Score:2)
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I could have sent it right back where it came from (newegg) for a full refund but I had built my system around it...
Re:Toshiba charges $49 for warranty call, $29 for (Score:5, Interesting)
I am not trying to excuse Toshiba, but if you have had to deal with the general, clueless "public" with computer support, you might have a better understanding of why they (and other companies) are doing that.
I would guess that even more than 90% of all calls to support have nothing to do with a hardware problem. They are typically:
* MS-Windows brokenness
* MS-Windows virii and malware
* Broken third-party software and drivers
* Broken third-party hardware (chargers, cables, drives)
* Users that don't understand how basic stuff works (connecting WiFi, booting, burning discs, copying files)
* Users who have hosed their machines by doing stupid stuff
That, unfortunately, means a HUGE expense to computer manufacturers, and those costs were traditionally plowed right back into the sticker price of everything they sold. In a fiercely competitive industry, companies are looking for ways to cut their prices as much as possible. Support is the first target. (And the second seems to be machine quality).
The people like the Slashdot crowd are now forced to pay the price for the changed ecosystem- we have to put up with stupid front-line "support" levels that are not support, and pay stupid fees that to try and filter out the bad apples. The assumption is that every caller to a support center is an idiot.
There are times I wish that computer professionals could carry some type of "license" that would allow them to skip the normal channels and jump directly to support people that really are support.
Maybe you are right. (Score:3)
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But they are probably filling the loophole by making the fees "refundable" if it really is a warranty related issue. It is sleazy, indeed.
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That's odd. I also live in TX, Houston to be precise, and a three years ago purchased my mother a new 17" Toshiba. I installed GNU/Linux on it right out of the box (previously having verified that it would work with with the OS). I did have to compile the wireless driver, which was available from Toshiba's support website... While there I also noted that the fingerprint reader driver was available for my own Laptop (and it works neatly too, just swipe finger after "sudo"). While copying a lot of music
Yeah, I was shocked. (Score:2)
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they want $78 to replace a laptop keyboard that probably costs $5 or less.
Laptop keyboards cost around $20-$30, BTW. I've had to replace mine.
https://www.google.com/search?q=laptop+keyboard [google.com]
Yeah, I would pay the extra $50 (Score:2)
My friends in LA bitch and moan about Apple (Score:2)
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You should check first (Score:3, Insightful)
Obviously if you publish or distribute some work you did not craft yourself, you should ask the owner first.
If only for politeness sake.
How would you feel if I published an old pdf from you without asking or informing you?
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How would you feel if I published an old pdf from you without asking or informing you?
I would feel grateful for keeping the dream alive.
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How would you feel if I published an old pdf from you without asking or informing you?
It depends on my business model. If I was trying to sell copies of my pdf (because it's a book or something), then I'd be unhappy. If the pdf wasn't the thing I was selling, but hardware was the thing I was selling, then I really wouldn't care. If Toshiba is giving away free copies of the pdf on their website (and not as part of an ad-based revenue model), then I wouldn't expect them to get too concerned about other websites giving it away for free, too.
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People do that all the time, and I don't mind at all.
What's left? (Score:2)
Are they obligated by contract? (Score:2)
Toshiba and Legacy Product Support (Score:5, Interesting)
Ah yes, Toshiba and their wonderful legacy support.
The company that dropped all their support info down the memory hole without warning, when they exited the digital camera business back in 2004. All the manuals, software, firmware, and FAQs simply disappeared their site. I discovered this when I had to upgrade the firmware in one of my old cameras to address SD card compatibility issues (at the time it was already technologically obsolete in many ways, but had excellent quality optics). Only place that still had the firmware was a 3rd-party driver site with the flashing procedure instructions written in Chinese. Fortunately, the firmware itself turned out to be in English.
Toshiba eventually re-entered the camera business, but any information from their earlier generation of cameras is gone. If you want any downloads or manuals, Toshiba re-directs you to a third party telephone support service that charges $19.95 for assistance. Actually, that fee might be behind the removal of their laptop manuals as well -- whatever outsourced agency Toshiba dumped their legacy support info to, wants to be paid for that info.
Copyright violation (Score:2)
This is clearly a copyright violation as the law currently stands. But I think you could make a good argument for user manuals - that are only of value if you have a product to begin with - should not be covered under copyright.
Fair use exception to copyright law (Score:2)
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Because the guy is in Australia and US Fair Use exceptions have no bearing there? It's possible that Australia's "fair dealing" exceptions don't cover archiving.
But, the Australian fair dealing exception (Score:2)
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Here you go: whenever you walk into a store, that store can throw you out for trespassing. It's well within their legal rights to kick you out for trespassing.
No, they may not. They invited you in, and so you are not trespassing. They can kick you out for another reason, then trespass if you don't leave after being "asked" to do so. But they may not simply kick you out for trespassing. They invited you in.
That Doesn't Sound So Smart (Score:3)
Mental note: Toshiba laptops are now worth less because the manuals will be harder to come by.
Ok, one more company to avoid (Score:2)
They want to be like that, dont give them your money.
Fuck Toshiba (Score:2)
I've been using & repairing PCs & laptops for over 20 years & I've never touched a Toshiba that wasn't a flaming piece of crap. Even the $4k QOSMO one of my customers had was complete junk.
I wouldn't keep a Toshiba Satellite around if it was given to me free & new.
It's All About Liability (Score:2)
The lawyers are concerned that a manual might be altered in some way and that a customer who downloaded an altered manual might suffer harm because of it. The customer could then sue Toshiba and claim that since they knew the site existed and was hosting their manuals that they had an obligation to ensure that the manuals were accurate.
It's paranoia in the extreme, but attorneys are paid to be paranoid. They need someone else to reign them in, and apparently in this case, that hasn't happened.
This sucks, but his website isn't a solution (Score:2)
It's great he was archiving these manuals, and it might be foolish for Toshiba to demand they be removed. However, his website isn't a solution either.
Manuals get updated and it's important to have the current versions. Furthermore, they may contain information that companies don't want to let out of their control.
A better idea would be some kind of standard for websites, like a cultural convention that every website has a "support" menu option and under it a "documentation" option that leads to a search bl
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"Manuals get updated and it's important to have the current versions."
For aircraft, yes.
For notebooks? Bullshit!
They are short-term consumer products and basic manuals are sufficient.
Toshiba is crap anyway. (Score:2)
Just don't buy them. Recommend/review against them. Refuse to support them.
Then let's see what their copyright is worth.
Well then.. (Score:2)
I guess this helps me with my decision on a new laptop. HP it is..
Clearly people do not understand (Score:2)
From a liability perspective, it is obvious why they would shut this down.
While it would never occur to most people on this site, please understand that once you have other people in control of your documentation and distributing it, they can do whatever they want with it. There is no assurance that a manual hosted on a third-party site is in fact the original manual as published by Toshiba.
So imagine the scenario where someone hosting such a copied manual adds a page that implies that certain persons of a
Email to ToshibaPR@accesspr.com (Score:3, Interesting)
Hello,
I am in the market for a laptop, which means I am reading quite a bit as part of
my research as to which laptop to eventually buy. You can imagine my surprise
when I ran across this:
http://www.tim.id.au/blog/2012/11/10/toshiba-laptop-service-manuals-and-the-sorry-state-of-copyright-law/ [tim.id.au]
It seems Toshiba has decided that non-commercial distribution of product manuals, which
is a thing that would actually HELP the owners of Toshiba laptops, is not allowed:
âoeYou do not have permission [to disseminate Toshiba copyright material] nor will it be granted
to you in the foreseeable future.â
I most definitely won't be buying a Toshiba laptop, nor will I ever purchase any other
Toshiba products. Your policies are anti-consumer and hurt those foolish enough to spend
their money with your company.
Further more, numerous examples of other of Toshiba's anti-consumer policies, are found
in public comments to an article linked here:
http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/12/11/10/1334221/toshiba-pursues-copyright-claim-against-laptop-manual-site [slashdot.org]
Thank you so much for publically stating Toshiba policy. It leaves me with quite clear
reasons as to why I will never purchase Toshiba products.
I don't get it (Score:2)
and helpfully forced him to remove all of their manuals under a copyright claim.
That's not helpful. That's not helpful at all!
I own a Toshiba Tecra (Score:2)
And any manual anyone has on the product is by definition completely useless. If you want to know something better go to YouTube.
Should have torrented them instead. (Score:2)
Fuck Toshiba for trying to make their older machines even less maintainable.
Are manuals facts? (Score:3)
Copyright laws protect creative and artistic works. To me the collection of facts on how a printer operates is no more creative than the collection of phone numbers in a phone book.
I am quite disappointed (Score:3)
In the radios in the 50s (which i picked from the trash) schematics including simple test procedures were stuck in a small paper envelope taped to the inside of the enclosure.
In the electronic device of the 80s at least a schematic was included in the manual, often including simple test instrucitons.
At some point the belief started that only licensed service centers or at least some who pay fro the instructions should have the information to touch the holy devices.
MESSAGE TO THE COMPANIES: I am the customer who buys you fucking device. Every money you charge for helping to fix/repair the device i gave you money for will make me less happy.
Its sad to know that a broken stabilizer capacitor probably causes more cost (and effort) to repair dur to the small and intransparent market than to just buy a new device.
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"Wasn't a damn thing wrong with old-school manufacturer ftp support sites."
They don't look kewl and aren't set up to facilitate recording user data for mining.