Charlie Kindel On Why Windows Phone Still Hasn't Taken Off 397
An anonymous reader writes "Microsoft's weak share in the mobile phone market can be attributed to its mishandling of industry politics, not inferior technology or features, according to ex-Windows Phone evangelist Charlie Kindel. Microsoft's traditional strategy of going over the heads of hardware vendors to meet the needs of consumers and application developers does not work in the phone market, says Kindel, where the handset makers and carriers have the biggest say in determining the winners (Apple is an exception). Not everybody agrees with Kindel's analysis. Old-timers may remember Kindel, who recently resigned from Microsoft, from his days as developer relations guru for COM/OLE/Active-X."
And the other reason is... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:And the other reason is... (Score:5, Insightful)
The thing is Windows Mobile is not a inferior OS (for once). But MS's history has burned so many in the past that people are just turned off by the idea of a Windows mobile phone.
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Re:And the other reason is... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not a user of Windows Phone, but I did just port an Android app I've written to WP7, and in doing so, I learned quite a bit about it... From my point of view (been an Android developer before the first phones were released), it seems like WP8 will be very nice, but WP7 is still lacking in a lot of ways. A few things I noticed:
- there's not a whole lot of useful multitasking you can do right now, so complex apps that use background services are right out.
- you can't disable the on-screen keyboard from activating when a text box is focused, so if you have a box that the user can select text from or position the cursor in, you always get the OSK covering half of your UI
- the screen layout designer is difficult to work with, and doesn't seem like it has many features for supporting different resolutions, MS sure does love their absolute-positioning grid layouts
- there doesn't seem to be a debug log viewer available in the development tools... or maybe the OS has no logging at all?
I suspect an end user won't really notice a lot of my complaints, but they're there, and the whole experience was a bit disappointing to me, despite my preference for C# over Java.
Re:And the other reason is... (Score:5, Informative)
It's iOS-style "multitasking" for the most part (as distinguished from desktop/WinMo/Android-style). You can technically abuse the background task APIs to get almost true multitasking (or, with sufficient permissions, modify the app-backgrounding suspend/dehydration behavior to get full multitasking), but that's really only useful for homebrew - Microsoft won't accept an app that does such things into the Marketplace.
Marking a text box read-only should prevent the keyboard from showing up but still allow the user to select and copy text.
The screen designer built into Visual Studio is a bit of pain. The one in Expression Blend (which is explicitly designed for XAML, and a version of it specifically for WP7 XAML is included with the dev kit) is much better, though it is a new UI to learn. As for resolutions, WP7 only allows a single resolution - 800x480 - so the concerns you have coming from Android aren't currently relevant. If/when they allow other resolutions, my guess is that legacy apps will just use the hardware scaler (which is required on WP7 devices) to enlarge the screen contents to the new resolution, while new apps will ahve the option of targeting 1200x720 or whatever new resolution they decide to allow.
Visual Studio has a debug-output view, scrollable with history (I don't know if it can be redirected into a file, never tried). It's quite possible to print debug messages from within an app; they will only show up when the debugger is attached (of course) and appear in a VS window/tab. It's also possible to use MessageBox to show debug messages during development, though that's a hacky solution (it works without the phone being connected to the debugger, though). As for OS-level logging, it's not visible. That shouldn't be a problem when developing sandboxed apps, though.
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There is some truth to that, but it's also the case that we don't really know if Microsoft has actually learned a lesson or whether the current Windows Mobile is a fluke. Moreover, there's how the phone behaves in the store, and how it behaves when you start digging into it, and here again Microsoft has a reputation to overcome.
And, there's still enough indication that Management believes "they'll buy it 'cause it's Windows and LIKE it" (from the article: "end users just do what they are told") type of hub
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Maybe it isn't inferior, I don't actually know*. I think Microsoft's problem right now is that they've become the embarrassing uncle of the tech world. Look at their 'impromptu' dancing in the Windows Stores (search for it on youtube and prepare to die a little). Look at the 'Windows 7 party pack' video they made (just thinking about it makes me want to curl up in a ball and cry), the Seinfeld thing, and there are dozens more examples (including just the other week, four white girls rapping about Windows Ph
Re:And the other reason is... (Score:5, Insightful)
The thing is Windows Mobile is not a inferior OS (for once). But MS's history has burned so many in the past that people are just turned off by the idea of a Windows mobile phone.
This is pretty much the long and short of it.
Also, WP7 is just competing against more mature offerings, with more features to entice new users. WP7 is quite nice to use (I have a Samsung Focus), and it does most tasks well, but it still falls behind when compared to Android and iPhone in a lot of tasks, simply because it's younger.
IMO, WP7 (vs. Android or iPhone) is ideal for 3 types of people:
- If you want a really simple but still powerful smartphone, then check out WP7. iPhone is a very close 2nd in this category, but WP7 is incredibly simple to use.
- If you are heavy into Facebook or Twitter, then you should look at WP7. The Social hubs are unmatched.
- If you love finding and downloading new music, then you should check out Zune Pass + WP7. Although they did just get rid of their $15/month-but-with-10-free-songs deal, the $10/month for a huge music library you can download to your hearts content is still quite nice.
Otherwise, honestly, you will probably find more things to like about an Android or iPhone. Although you should still check out WP7 and see if the UI can swing you like it did me.
Re:And the other reason is... (Score:5, Informative)
You do know that android phones have their own gps in the units, google maps has offline pre-caching mode, and there are other offline maps http://www.mapdroyd.com/ that can be used. I have used google maps while navigating a lake where there was no cell signal, and it worked just fine.
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Funny, you just slashdotted Mapdroyd.
Re:And the other reason is... (Score:5, Informative)
What?
Let's start with the article. The article's focus is completely off - there's nothing windows can do to simply be relevant, and focusing on "how can we get marketshare" shows a complete and utter misunderstanding of the entire market and asking the wrong question. The first question should be "how can we make a great phone with a great experience". Not "why aren't people buying this"? That by itself has already been answered, which is significant market data research given in the form of a failure in the market. Had they not been moronic they'd have gone back the drawing board and come up with better competition by now. This shows that they don't want to look at their own market data and are still in the "la la la our products are great" stage of denial, aka "we're trying to do the apple reality distortion technique".
For your comments: Windows mobile is a subpar OS. Android is an infinitely moddable user interface but stock tends to be completely and utterly crap.
Also, Gmail (and any email program) will cache the last 20 or 50 emails so that you can open them and read them without any data connection whatsoever. By the time you've received notice of the emails they've already been preserved. You can create a draft with no connection, and it will pull the contacts from your contact list.
The GPS works without any form of data, you can cache any area manually yourself or use an app that already has map info. This isn't any different than any other navigation device, whether a GPS device or a cellphone. Also, you have 3 forms of GPS (AGPS [wikipedia.org], S-GPS [wikipedia.org] and location triangulation [wikipedia.org] explicitly by mobile) as so it's practically impossible to not have a signal - even in the middle of a forest. you might not have a map, sure, but you will have gps and a compass.
However, every phone's hardware is different, notably. If you had the samsung vibrant for example, you basically have a not completely accurate GPS. So every phone will be different in how well it works.
Re:And the other reason is... (Score:5, Insightful)
The short question and answer is "How can we make people want this?" The answer is unknown to me. Apple took that approach and it worked out great. Of course, there was an incredibly charismatic front man explaining to everyone that they need the next i-thing. Microsoft doesn't do that so much. They killed the competition and so they only need to use their legal muscle to convince people they need to buy their monopoly product... in fact, they need to buy it twice if they are a corporation. (Turns out volume licensed Windows is an 'upgrade' and requires a previous instance of Windows... an OEM version of Windows... so buy it once from the OEM, then buy it again so you can legally deploy images.)
Microsoft hasn't ever had a charismatic face man. Bill Gates, the celebrity that he is, simply doesn't qualify I'm afraid. And any awe and wonder Microsoft might have inspired in the past hasn't appeared for the past... what? 20 years almost? Has it really been that long? Yeah... it really has.
SMALL DEVICES is simply not something that Microsoft can do! There was a time when they could, but it just doesn't seem possible any longer. The bloat has made them so fat and heavy they can't move without a quad core and 8GB RAM. Yes, please disagree with me. I know you want to. Whatever Microsoft has right now will never see an effective light of day. It was rejected before anyone ever heard of it.
Re:And the other reason is... (Score:5, Insightful)
The incredibly charismatic front man also figured out how to take advantage of the mobile platform and offer services that no one else was offering. There hadn't really been a handheld revolution since Palm and BlackBerry.
Apple didn't win of charisma they won of the advantages of an integrated total experience.
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Seriously? If Microsoft delivered what Apple delivered, I simply don't think it would be as well received. What's more, pretty much everything delivered in the form of these i-things already existed in things other makers have made. Apple put some things together and made them slick and shiny, but they didn't make anything original. They did, however, manage to tie the stuff down and limited them in ways unprecedented. In that way, Apple definitely did something new, but that's not something people act
Re:And the other reason is... (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah, another anti-fanboy. Your complaints are false and intellectually lazy - see the iPod, which was the first MP3 player to combine a micro-hard drive with a fast interface, just for starters.
If marketing was the only thing Apple had going for it's products, they would have been overtaken by now. If you don't like their products, Jobs probably would have been the first one to tell you to go right ahead and buy from one of their competitors.
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Ah, another anti-fanboy. Your complaints are false and intellectually lazy - see the iPod, which was the first MP3 player to combine a micro-hard drive with a fast interface, just for starters.
MP3 players with 2.5" hard drives had been in the market from Compaq, Creative and others for several years when Apple introduced the iPod. Yes, Apple got the first batch of 1.8" drives from Toshiba, but if they hadn't the others would have. It was obvious that this was an application for the smaller drives. So this is a fairly obvious evolution of MP3 players that would have happend regardless of Apple at the same time as Apple introduced it.
The user interface is a better argument. That was much better on
The does everything pretty well phone (Score:3)
iPhone tries to make a phone that plays music well, plays films well, reads mail well, runs ga
Re:And the other reason is... (Score:5, Insightful)
I disagree. There was a time when Microsoft phones were starting to gain on Palm. At this point, I had a problem with installing an app on my PC and then on the phone. It just simply never made it to the phone. While on the phone with support, I asked the guy why I couldn't just download and install software on the phone itself, since it already had an internet connection.
His response: Nobody would want to do that.
Apple's customers did want that, and they got it.
So, I disagree that if Microsoft had done it, it wouldn't have been well-received. If they had made an app store (or at least a format that installed directly on the phone that people could have put on their websites) and had made the interface so that everything wasn't buried 3 dialogs deep ON A PHONE!!!, they would have won the marketplace.
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I agree it would be disingenuous, which is why I never said that was the only reason. It however is a reason that provides substantial value to end users.
What are you talking about? There exist apps that compete with one another, and apps that replace Apple functionality. For example there are abo
Re:And the other reason is... (Score:5, Insightful)
The iPhone sold because it offered something that other phones did not... It was appealing to users, and although it didn't really offer anything new it did existing things like email and web browsing better than other phones on the market.
Windows phone has nothing to offer users that they can't get from an Android or iOS based device...
On the other hand, it's called "windows" which paints the device in a negative light...
It reminds users of windows mobile, which was an awful platform that users generally hated.
It gives users an incorrect belief that they will be able to run windows applications on it, just as windows mobile did, and users will be disappointed.
It creates an association with the desktop/laptop windows brand, a brand which is generally disliked and is associated with crashing, malware and various other nasties... It's tolerated on computers because users don't see any alternative or are locked in, but alternatives are well known and readily available on phones.
Re:And the other reason is... (Score:4, Insightful)
although it didn't really offer anything new it did existing things like email and web browsing better than other phones on the market.
What? While I'm an Android user (and am generally happy with my phone / OS) it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that the iPhone, at least the original model, "didn't really offer anything new." It was the first phone to be widely used as a handheld computer instead of just a phone, it was the first phone to have an app store and a large number of third party apps available to end users. I'm pretty sure that was new when the original iPhone launched. While I can't see myself switching from Android to iOS anytime in the future, I give credit to Apple for making the original iPhone a groundbreaking device.
Ok, feel free to mod me down now for saying something in support of Apple.
Re:And the other reason is... (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, when the iPhone launched, it had no app-store, or third party apps at all. Both Blackberry and Windows Mobile of the time did have third party apps. It was severely limited in functionality: It didn't do turn by turn directions (My 2003 dumbphone did that), it didn't do MMS (ditto), it was 2G when all it's competitors were 3G already, It had no keyboard, the virtual keyboard was portrait only, no video recording, no stereo bluetooth, a headphone jack that pretty much only worked with it's own headphones, and pretty bad call quality.
Note these are all features it's competitors of the day already had.
What it _did_ have was a stellar music and videos interface, beautiful industrial design combined with excellent software integration, and a multi-touch capacitive screen. Apparently that was enough.
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> I'm pretty sure that was new when the original iPhone launched
When the iPhone launched, it was not 'widely used' in any way and there were other hand held computers ('Internet Tablets') out there from Nokia (although not very widely used, especially in the USA, I suppose); and I guess others too.
When the iPhone launched, it had no app store at all. iirc, Apple didn't really want to make an app store, but were later convinced to do so. even when the app store was launched, it didn't have a huge number o
Re:And the other reason is... (Score:5, Insightful)
I am an Apple fanboi, and I just gotta say you aren't quite accurate. Blackberry and some versions of WinMo had app stores prior to Apple's. OP was correct that Apple didn't do anything totally new, it did everything 'better'. And by 'better', I mean for most normal human beings, not slashdot troglodytes.
One thing Apple did with the iPhone that my brother often mentions, but never comes up here: broke the backs of the carriers. No more shovelware. No more locked down shit. No more proprietary music/video sources.
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No more shovelware. No more locked down shit. No more proprietary music/video sources.
The irony is that they replaced it with their own brand of lockdowns. While I generally prefer the hiding of the file-system from the user, I can't stress enough what a PITA it is to get files from and to iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch.
In addition, iTunes is the shovelware locked down shit that comes with owning an iThingy....
Re:WP7 Is Garbage (Score:5, Insightful)
The UI is horrible.
It's not open source.
No one is making apps for it because it is dead in the market.
You can't develop for it on OS X or Unix.
You are forced to use Microsoft's shitty developer tools.
But, hey!, it has connectivity with Microsoft's piece of shit last place console!
LOL, fail.
1. You may dislike the UI, but a lot of people love it because of the minimalism.
2. Yes it's not Open Source.
3. Sorry on this point, it just crossed 50,000 apps and the growth is accelerating http://www.wpcentral.com/windows-phone-marketplace-hits-50000-apps [wpcentral.com]
4. Yes no dev on OS X and Linux
5. Microsoft's developer tools are no where close to shitty, they're simply the best in the industry (YMMV).
6. The last point proves that you're a troll. XBox 360 is nowhere close to last place. It just had a record Thanksgiving beating all other consoles and they're flying off shelves thanks to Kinect and the new media features. Also, they're top on the biggest metric, the amount people spend money on, buying games.
Re:And the other reason is... (Score:4, Interesting)
focusing on "how can we get marketshare" shows a complete and utter misunderstanding of the entire market and asking the wrong question. The first question should be "how can we make a great phone with a great experience". Not "why aren't people buying this"?
Bingo.
And that is why Apple could break the rules and get away with it. They knew the original iPhone would sell to a select audience. They were not concerned with market share. And yet they had Nokia running scared the moment it hit the shelves.
Re:And the other reason is... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Verizon unlimited customers are grandfathered in for now, at least.
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Android is a superior user interface, chained to an operating system that operates so much in the cloud that I lose the ability to read my e-mail when the train goes through the tunnel on the way to work.
Which email app are you using? I read my Gmail with the Android "Gmail" app, and sync to Exchange with the bundled Email app, and I can read cached emails on both clients while my phone is in Airplane mode with no data connection.
Granted, I can't search email or browse unsynced email folders, but I can read my new emails uninterrupted while going through a tunnel.
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I read Android Gmail App, using a Gmail account. I don't sync to exchange at all- don't have an exchange server to sync to- so it's ALL Gmail, and all the Gmail Ap says in the tunnel is "connection unavailable".
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Archiving does no good on Gmail. Your mail is entirely held on the server; the archive as well- when the phone goes through the tunnel, the Gmail Ap just returns "Connection Unavailable".
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Maybe the phone should do that for you instead of making the user have to set hidden options prior traveling to areas where the map/GPS functionality is most likely to be needed. It works when they're at home, why would they expect it to not work when they go elsewhere, and how would they know to look for the option to archive the maps before leaving?
Re:And the other reason is... (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:And the other reason is... (Score:4, Interesting)
Fool me once, shame on you, lock me into an inferior OS twice, shame on the whole industry.
Damn right. My last smart phone was an HTC XV6800 running Windows Mobile 6.0 and it was the biggest piece of shit I've ever had in my life.
Never again...
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I have a windows 5 phone, works fine, but of course I am not in the garb of my handheld is a replacement of my desktop
what do you want out of a phone, for me its to make calls and send a SMS once in a while, the fact it will play games and MP3 is a bonus
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sounds like you just bought a shitty phone, I have been using this thing since 2005 and its never locked up or crashed at all
do you also blame windows when your e-machine blows out its power supply? I would be blaming e-machines, just like you should be blaming whoever made that worthless chunk of crap phone
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It was an HTC XV6800 smart phone. It was one of the higher rated smart phones Verizon carried before Android hit, according to CNet and the other places.
It was still a piece of crap. Seems my anecdotal evidence and your anecdotal evidence cancel out, but that's okay, I wasn't trying to convince people of anything; I really don't care. Just giving my own experiences...
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sounds like you just bought a shitty phone, I have been using this thing since 2005 and its never locked up or crashed at all
Really? So was the Motorola Q a "shitty phone"? Because mine did exactly what the parent was describing about a few months, as did those of most of the people I knew with them. This was not unexpected, as the various other windows mobile phones they and I had been using seemed to be about the same.
I'm not sure what relevance this has to the latest devices as in what is being discussed here, but your experience seems to be quite out of the ordinary for windows mobile inthe '05-'07ish time frame from my ex
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I used Windows Mobile between 2004 and 2010 and I owned lots of HTC devices (Wallaby, Himalaya, Blue Angel, Universal, Athena, Blackstone, Leo), also a few non-phone Windows Mobile devices (Toshiba E800, HP HX4700). I actually liked the operating system (well, except WM5, that one wasn't any good until AKU3.5 came out, and by then WM6 beta was better anyway). Now using Android on my former WM6.5 phone, and the only reason for it is that Windows Mobile was almost unusable on a capacitive display.
Windows Mobi
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No, you see, you got that wrong. The only features apple introduced in the last year are picking up where Android left. Voice controls (siri), social network sharing (and only for 1), the notification bar with "limited widgets", simple things like copy past or multi-tasking.
Apple set the bar 3 or 4 years ago. Then almost 2 years ago Android got to where iOS was and now it's surpassing it on almost every aspect (comparing top of the line phones, obviously). Sure, the overall user experience of iOS is great,
Re:And the other reason is... (Score:5, Insightful)
Profitable for the user? Is that a feature?
Regulated, Amazon App store. Windows Marketplace is also regulated.
The thing is, profitable or not, most of the main applications now support both systems. If I'm the end user I don't really care where I play angry birds nor do I care that Rovio did more money on iOS than Android (free app with adds btw).
And I asked features that no one else has. I could say iOS lacks a truly free Market where anyone can publish their apps without fear of rejection or where your business model can be decided by yourself and not Apple. Obviously both approaches have their advantages but that's not a "feature", especially one that everyone should aspire to have.
I just dont care about Face Book. (Score:2)
Re:I just dont care about Face Book. (Score:5, Funny)
Do what I do. It's a fairly complicated process, but the results are well worth it.
1) Don't open the Facebook application.
This is all from memory, so hopefully I didn't skip anything!
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Who said you have to use Facebook? If it really irritates you, you can always root your Android phone and remove it entirely.
I've just turned off automatic updates to it, uninstalled all the updates that were there, and don't ever touch it. Works just fine for me. Same with Twitter and the other social networking garbage. Nobody is making you use the shit. The only thing that was forced on me when I got my Droid was a gmail address, and I already had one of those, so no harm, no foul...
I don't have fir
Windows Phone is Superior; Why Hasn’t it Tak (Score:5, Insightful)
Wait, why is it superior?
Windows Phone is Superior; Why Hasn’t it Taken Off
ex-Windows Phone evangelist Charlie Kindel
Oh, right
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well,
it's superior because techwise it does less than series 40.
it's superior because it's less extensible than bada.
it's superior because it's less nerdy than meego.
it's superior because it's got less choice than blackberries.
it's superior because it's more expensive to release sw for than symbian.
it's superior because it has less coding options than mophun devices had.
it's superior because there's no dual sim model to confuse you.
it's superior because the memory card is glued in.
it's superior because 2 ye
What is the implication here? (Score:3)
Is the submitter trying to imply that his judgement doesn't matter because COM/OLE/ActiveX was somehow bad?
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Is the submitter trying to imply that his judgement doesn't matter because COM/OLE/ActiveX was somehow bad?
I wouldn't have submitted the article if I didn't think his opinion mattered.
can you imagine the hell that is "developer relations for COM/OLE/Active-X"?
Heh. For the first 2-3 years about the only thing we ISV's had was the incomprehensible "Inside OLE" book from MS Press, and the reference pages on the various interfaces and methods. Charlie helped by answering our emails, he seemed to be the guy in Redmond who knew the most about it. Then IIRC Charlie was the lead author of a long MSDN paper describing the COM architecture which revealed a kernel of elegance under the morass of
Re:What is the implication here? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well.. (Score:5, Informative)
Well, let's see here...
* The delivery is about three-four years too late
* World+dog who has used Windows-based phones in the past have experience with WMP 6.5 (*shudder*)
* App developers are looking at 'safe' (marketshare-wise) platforms to write apps for. iOS and Android are among them, while WP7 is not.
* The UI tiles may be pretty, but that whole right-hand side of the screen is sitting there unused, making the whole thing look narrower, and therefore smaller
* The ads aren't quite cutting it, and tend to be (IMHO) full of snafus. For instance, the latest sends the subtle message that only whipped boyfriends willing to wear yoga tights will use a Windows Phone.
There's lots more, but those stand out immediately...
Re:Well.. (Score:5, Funny)
For instance, the latest sends the subtle message that only whipped boyfriends willing to wear yoga tights will use a Windows Phone.
In all fairness, if they could garner half of those, they'd double their market share.
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Your first explanation is the biggest reason Windows Phone is hurting... They are coming in waaaay too late to the party. They couldn't even manage to get Nokia to release a phone in time for Christmas this year. (shakes head) The reason why Android took off was that they were the only viable anti-iPhone product out there that was desperately looking an alternative, especially on Verizon. Palm blew it by tying itself to Sprint, so Android came in and became the yin to Apple's yang. Now, Microsoft has to
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It seems to be a Samsung ad. Does Microsoft have editorial control?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ciQ4vdsGvA [youtube.com]
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Who is the audience? (Score:3, Insightful)
What is the audience for Windows Phone at this point?
If you want a smooth, uncomplicated user experience and don't mind lock-in with a tyrannical corporation, get an iPhone.
If you want things like freedom and openness and ethics and value and don't mind not having the "cool" phone that gets all the buzz, get an Android.
What exactly is the core audience for Windows Phone, and what are the traits that they value? I can't really think of anyone for whom Windows Phone would make more sense than either iOS or Android.
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What exactly is the core audience for Windows Phone, and what are the traits that they value? I can't really think of anyone for whom Windows Phone would make more sense than either iOS or Android.
The other category: people who get talked into buying one by a sales person, by even they won't push them.
Re:Who is the audience? (Score:4, Informative)
My wife had an old Windows Mobile phone and hated it. She had to replace it once, and it required a lot of tech support from Verizon. The Verizon rep said they hated Windows phones because they have such a high return rate (as did Palm OS phones) and required a lot of support. Granted this was a few years ago, but I suspect Verizon has been burned by Microsoft for too long and want to let other carriers test the waters more fully.
When it takes until version 7 to get a usable phone, you've likely burned a few bridges.
Re:Who is the audience? (Score:4, Insightful)
Windows Phones are pretty clearly aimed at this segment, for those who don't want to pay the premium price to get locked in. They're aiming to beat Apple doing the same thing, "just good enough", for a lot less money.
It worked for PCs. It's not crazy to try it with phones.
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One small problem:
Back in the day, the difference between a mid-range 386 box with 'good enough' Windows 3.1 on it, and a low-end Apple PC? About $500 or more. Nowadays, we're talking a difference between $49 for an iPhone 3gs (via AT&T), and the same or higher cost for a mid-range WP7 phone.
In other words, what premium price?
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Windows Phones go on sale all the time. The top of the line HTC Titan was available for $0.01 over thanksgiving. The Samsung Focus Flash was recently available for the same amount. And the 3gs? Really, a phone that's two generations behind?
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I chose Windows Phone for a couple reasons... some against the other two OSs, others for with Windows Phone OS. I don't like iOS mostly because I don't like Apple. I don't like iTunes, I don't like their hardware, I despise their marketing, and I feel like a tool holding their products. In terms of iOS specifically, I also feel like it's starting to show its age, and the app launcher OS paradigm seems really old and boring to me.
Against Android, it's always seemed like a bad iOS clone to me. You say it's th
Its not surprising everyone disagrees (Score:5, Insightful)
a) Late to market
b) Lacking developer support as many had already moved to iPhone or Android or developed mobile skills on these platforms
c) Not allowing hardware manufacturers to best utilise existing hardware by being proscriptive
d) Trying to be different after the market had already led in specific directions (iPhone then Android). Lets face it, it wasn't going to be easy to get in on this without using a similar interface to iPhone or a good weight of device support (Linux)
e) Less than interesting on most of the original hardware
f) Poor Marketting
g) Leaving carriers being carriers - little value add and little gain.
h) Using the names "Microsoft" and "Windows"
Anyone think of any others? I think instead of arguing between posts I think we can just add a big list together, post it to Microsoft and see if they learn any lessons.
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http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=19188975 [xda-developers.com]
Citation needed (Score:2)
going over the heads of hardware vendors to meet the needs of consumers and application developers does not work in the phone market
Say what? Hello, Apple? Seems to be working for them, last time I checked.
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Windows Phone 7 need to be more open.. (Score:5, Informative)
I tested a windows phone 7 device for my company..
We don't allow storage of corporate data on 3rd party servers so right off the bat it's web based storage system was useless..
The OS offers no USB storage options and no removable SD cards.
It had no way to upload videos from the phone other then tethering it to PC and using the MS Zune app to download the off the phone.
Overall we found the OS to be to restrictive for our needs and standardized on Android based phones.
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(I have to say, you're more polite that I would have been.)
Hear that Charlie? It was the IMPLEMENTATION that sucked, not your relationship with the carriers. The hilarious thing is not meeting enterprise standards, which was pretty much Microsoft's only market for phones in the past, due to the perception (incorrect, as it turns out,) that there would be an IT advantage to having Windows on portable devices.
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I'm curious whether you have an Exchange server, and whether you were a Blackberry shop before?
I ask this because I've thought Microsoft's biggest opportunity would be to drive RIM out of the market by selling Windows Phone to existing Blackberry customers who have Exchange in place. The BB outage some weeks back should have hastened this transition. So I was puzzled by Randel's article where he seems to ignore the corporate market entirely to focus on the appeal, or lack thereof, to consumers.
For those of
Bad positioning (Score:2)
OLE ActiveX COM Guru (Score:2)
I for one disagree with his analysis (Score:4, Interesting)
Firstly, he thinks that consumers are stupid: "They don’t know what they hate. All they know is they buy phone service from mobile carriers and/or buy a phone from a carrier. They love speeds & feeds and will generally buy anything they are told to by television ads and RSPs (Retail Sales Professionals)."
No: consumers ask their friends. Their friends are Slashdot readers. They know full-well what a phone Market dominated by Microsoft would look like, they know how Microsoft has behaved. Repeatedly. And they are not going to recommend a MS phone to anyone: friends don't screw friends. They all know it's just about protecting the desktop market, and the moment that MS has achieved that objective they'll screw the user. The clue is in the name: 'Windows Phone'.
Secondly: "My hypothesis is that it also enables too much fragmentation that will eventually drive end users nuts." I guess that's how it's worked out for x86 choice in the face of the Apple desktop monoculture. Nope? It turns out that we value openness. It's one of the variables we play with when making a choice between systems: given all else equal, we'll choose the system that's more open. Advantages of openness far outweigh the disadvantages like fragmentation. So all that Google has to do is keep Android at rough parity with Apple in terms of UI/features. But they are doing better than parity - it's cheaper for better.
Thirdly: Carriers know full well what happens to companies who partner with Microsoft. And so do device manufacturers. I guess some companies (cough, Nokia, cough), like the idea of handing their future to Microsoft, but it turns out that most think that's a bad idea. Sendo, anyone?
Then I'm sure we can find a bunch of people who will dispute that WP is the best technically. Form an orderly queue in the replies please.
But finally, even if you were to consider that WP was technically the best, the idea that the best tech is the winner has been roundly disproved again and again. Everyone, including Charlie Kindel, knows it's about the whole package. We all know that MS on the desktop isn't the best technically (it can't be - it has to satisfy everyone) but it is the best at the whole package.
Apple is an exception (Score:2)
...Apple is an exception...
I think that sums up the story.
No, it's... (Score:2)
1) Microsoft has backstabbed almost every "partner" it has had, which means it only gets voluntary partners that are: a) stupid, or b) greedy.
2) Microsoft could go over the heads of the carriers, just like Apple, if it actually had something compelling for consumers. Instead, they used their default strategy of pushing carriers around while assuming that consumers would be drawn in by the fact that "It's Windows!". They didn't want to stand on the boat, and they didn't want to stand on the dock, so they end
Faulty premise (Score:2)
Sorry, but face the facts. WinCE is a terrible OS, and it always has been. If you have a decent product you don't need to change the name every few years.
If customers just did what they were told Android wouldn't be popular.
What? (Score:3)
From Kindel's blog: "Remember that end users just do what they are told (by advertising and RSPs). "
Yeah? Really? Screw you, Charlie, and all the devices you flogged. Go on, TELL me to buy a Windows phone. Go on. I'm listening. What? Louder. Ok, I hear you. I understand the instruction. The answer is NO.
Arrgh!
exception (Score:4, Insightful)
Apple is an exception
The real question is: Why isn't Microsoft?
"My better competitor is an exception" is a cop-out. Find out what makes them the exception, why they could break the rules and not only get away with it, but be successful doing so. Just saying "they're an exception" is on the same order as "these are not the droids you are looking for" - if you're not a Jedi, it just makes you look stupid. Because you didn't explain anything, and least of all the failure you're trying to cover up.
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Well, for one, they aren't an 'exception', they just don't do the distinct hardware and software vendor thing at all. It's an amazingly stragihtforward reality than MS can't seem to grasp. They aren't a company trying to serve the consumers needs in spite of the hardware vendor (incidentally that adversarial view of your 'partners' is probably a significant obstacle in your path), they are one company with any hardware/software disagreements settled behind closed doors.
MS wants to have the detached relati
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They were an exception because apple were coming directly from a position of strength - the ipod + itunes combo was incredibly popular (and still is for people who don't want or can't afford an iphone) and demonstrated apple were capable of making desirable consumer products. The idea of an ipod with phone service and 3g was always going to be a mega seller in the USA even if it was completely non functional in a number of areas compared to the Asian competition. (cut n paste, native apps, multitasking, dec
Its a Microsoft product (Score:3)
The reason I'd never buy one is simply because its a Microsoft product.
Microsoft have a long history of screwing their customers. I don't trust Microsoft or Ballmer especially to ever put small users interests first. Simple as that.
Similar problem in automotive (Score:4, Interesting)
Microsoft faced a similar problem in automotive systems. At one point, Microsoft wanted to control the in-car entertainment and navigation system market. The problem was that they wanted to have a direct relationship with the car buyer. (Think "OnStar, by Microsoft"). This did not go over with the auto companies. (A QNX sales rep once told me that an auto exec went through the roof when shown a demo with the Microsoft logo appearing on screen when the car was started.) Microsoft remains active in that sector, but has neither a dominant position nor control over the auto companies.
Evidence of ignorance... (Score:3)
Charlie Kindel was once a Windows Phone evangelist, and he thinks that inferior features or user experience are not the reason why Windows Mobile isn't capturing the market. To me, these are two solid pieces of evidence that he's never actually USED a Windows Mobile device!
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Though truth be told, I'd take a windows phone . . . if it were actually cheap enough for me to afford. Same for any other smart phone.
"Windows Mobile", eh? (Score:4, Interesting)
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Hint: It's "Windows Phone".
You mean it's not "Windows Phone 7 Series"? Damn I've been calling it the wrong thing...
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As someone very tangentially involved in the launch of the latest Windows phone this fall, I got to handle one of the latest/greatest models. The OS did seem pretty damn good, though a little too "whizzy"--too much animation, too much blinking, too much trying to show me "Hey! Look at what a sexy OS I am!", but in principle it looked really solid and worked well. MS has put a lot of thought and effort into making a mobile interface on a small touchscreen work well.
What was terrible was the Samsung hardwa
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Superior platform?
I've used it a few times, open minded... and found the interface to be terrible!!!
To be fair, the OS was quick and snappy and the functionality was decent, but the UI was so irritating that I just would never buy one. Yuk.
It felt like something I would buy for grandma, who would probably never leave the home screen "tiles", but I found it annoying and limiting.
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LATE? Windows CE, on which Windows Phone is based, came out in 1996. The first Windows phone came out in 1998, running CE 2.0. They were YEARS ahead of Apple and Android. What Apple changed- was a usable User Interface experience (most people just didn't want to hit the "Start" button to make a phone call!).
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they did a huge reset with WP7 which didn't come out until iOS 3 or so. at this point they are way behind apple and android
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sounds like the same people who bitch and whine about windows cause their e-machines blew a power supply
I own a 2005 era windows phone, still use it every single day ... wanna know how many times it "has crashed" zero, of course your obviously a power user since you used your phone so much that people would come checking for a corpse before you even looked at the fucking thing.
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Wait... you have a Windows Mobile 2003 phone that has never crashed?
I was VERY happy with my old HTC Tytn and it was the BEST phone out there at the time, but "crash free" is NOT a feature I would have ever advertised about it.
It crashed when opening emails with multiple attachments, it crashed if I didn't reboot it at least once every few days. It crashed when I was in maps and a call came in. It crashed when I was in a call and a second call came. It crashed when I installed certain applications (maybe
What would Steve Jobs say? (Score:3)
Why the fuck are you calling it "Windows" or "Phone" or "7"?
People associate "Windows" with uncool corporate dilbert crap. Phone is OK, but what are you going to call your pathetic excuse for a tablet, Windows Phone 8.5 For A Thing That Isn't A Phone?
And why 7, just reminds people how much 1 through 6 sucked. If it's totally different, and it is, you need to change people's feelings and not just the fucking api.