Nokia Issues Profit Warning 158
jones_supa submitted an article in the Guardian. From the article "Shares in the Finnish phone maker Nokia plunged by 15% on Tuesday as the company warned that it may make no profit on phone sales in the quarter to the end of June, and that overall phone sales will be 'substantially below' its earlier forecast of €6.1bn to €6.6bn. Carolina Milanesi, mobile phones analyst for the research company Gartner, said Tuesday's warnings could mark the low point for Nokia, which has not made a loss in its handset division for more than a decade."
SEE ALSO: (Score:3)
Free Software Faces a Test With Qt [slashdot.org]
Ka-poof!
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The author of your linked-to article is a moron. Qt is by far approaching it s best and most useful stage yet. Elop chose poorly, but lets face it, the board put him in to make the decision that he did. Meego was not as refind as iOS or Android, but wther is WP7. But you know, you get $10B for sucking from the MS teet, kinda makes it a no-brainer.
Still, Qt and Meego advance. I was bummed by the Nokia announcement, but really, the coolest stuff ever in Qt has happened in the last couple months.
I think Nokia
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Seeing how they just didn't get $6 billion in a quarter because of that deal, I'd like to ask how many quarters are they expecting to spend filling their contractual obligations with MS.
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*sigh*. /go away/... At /worst/ new features might not be added, but the stuff you know and love will still be around, probably for decades.
It's not like anythings going to
And more than likely it will continue as before, as there are plenty of commercial backerd who still need/want it.
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Java desperately needs something equivalent to partial classes, or a declarative UI language, or at least an enforced MVP pattern because these editors can be confused or broken easily because they gene
Kicking themselves yet? (Score:1, Redundant)
I bet that now they wish they never made that deal with The Devil Microsoft.
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Re:Kicking themselves yet? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Kicking themselves yet? (Score:5, Interesting)
When Nokia made their deal with Microsoft, they basically told the world "Don't buy any of our current phones because we're orphaning them."
Remember, they said that they would be switching ALL their phones to WP7. Would you lock yourself into a long-term contract for an orphan phone?
Microsoft wasn't stupid - they could foresee that Nokia share value would collapse - by next year, they'll be able to buy Nokia outright for a lot less than the money they gave them.
"Coming soon - The Microsoft X-Phone - it works great with your X-Box!"
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Re:Kicking themselves yet? (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm probably not the standard consumer - but it's definitely going to be a factor for why I wont be touching Nokia. And I've stuck with them since I first had a cell phone. I really, really like their hardware - they take most of the abuse I can throw at it. I currently have an e71x which is overall a fairly decent phone, but it's getting dated compared to the options available today.
The degree of my loyalty to their product is noted by the fact I'd almost seriously consider trying out the latest Win Mobile platform in order to retain the Nokia hardware - however, my contract renews in two months. Do I just snag whatever Nokia is offering now or do I wait some undisclosed time until their hardware has Win Mobile on it? Probably not. Most likely I'll just get some android variant and then maybe reconsider in 2 more years.
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Agreed. I actually enjoy a lot of MS's products. I feel like an endangered species existing on slashdot sometimes. It's really just the period of an obvious transition that's going to be fairly painful for the company. The question is - will they pull out of it and still be relevant?
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Microsoft hate has nothing to do with this. Even if you think MS is the best thing since sliced peanut butter, buying a Nokia phone right now means a two-year investment in a system supported by a shaky company with an unclear strategy that may not actually involve continued support. That's a turn-off right there. (Also, of you are a MS lover, and really want a WP7 phone, you're not going to buy anything Nokia makes that doesn't include WP7.)
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Even if you think MS is the best thing since sliced peanut butter
I'd stick to car metaphors if I were you.
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No matter how you slice it, Nokia comes up a loser until at least the end of the year.
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I guarantee Microsoft haters are a vanishingly small percentage of the overall market. There's just not that level of animosity outside of nerd circles, and even then, it's greatly diminished from the days of yore.
There was only ever actual animosity towards Microsoft in nerd circles, the vast majority of people couldn't care less about who makes software as long as their computer works.
This is why the inability of Linux to out-sell Windows as a consumer OS is so frustrating, it's not as though 99% of consumers ever had any great loyalty to or love of Microsoft in the first place.
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If anything, it's the opposite of MS-hate- the inclination not to buy one of their current (non-MS) phones as they are already out-of-date (even their own company has disowned them) and instead wait for the Nokia+MS phones (which could be a year or more away yet). Or buy an Android/Apple/WinMo phone that's already on the market (from a non-Nokia company).
No-one has any reason to buy a Symbian or MeeGo phone now. And it's a long wait until Nokia has something to replace it.
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I seriously doubt that Nokia's sales have suffered because of their deal with Microsoft
I'd blame the 'roid platform and the iThing. Not to mention utterly incompetent upper management at Nokia.
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It's probably both. I would imagine that the sales people at the phone shops know about it, and they'll tell the customers who are looking at Nokia phones, especially if they happen to have some very similar but slightly more profitable phones ready to replace the Nokias.
Re:Kicking themselves yet? (Score:4, Insightful)
When Nokia made their deal with Microsoft, they basically told the world "Don't buy any of our current phones because we're orphaning them."
More importantly perhaps, they told developers considering one of their many mobile platforms not to bother with any of them, and to focus on offerings from other companies instead. For their smartphones and plans for an ovi store that will be the kiss of death.
Nokia will coast for another few years as they have a huge install base and dominate the low-end, but when higher end phones start moving down, they will have a real problem, and being in hock to Microsoft is going to be part of that problem.
As for Qt, I think Microsoft will be hostile to it from the start, and encourage Nokia to burn their boats (and they have a place man at the head of Nokia to implement this). So the outlook for Qt is not good - it will probably be starved of cash and developers and left slowly to die. Best case would be if Nokia spins it off again right now, before they are taken over by MS or go into a death spiral.
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These are the same consumers who buy IPhones because they are made by Apple.
And quite often with out really comparing with other alternatives.
They buy what they are told.
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These are the same consumers who buy IPhones because they are made by Apple.
And quite often with out really comparing with other alternatives.
They buy what they are told, and most likely dont even know about this, or the ramifications for what they are buying or have just bought.
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Microsoft wasn't stupid - they could foresee that Nokia share value would collapse - by next year, they'll be able to buy Nokia outright for a lot less than the money they gave them.
If MS were that clever, then surely they wouldn't have given them more money than they thought they would be worth in a year's time? And why would they want to chuck money at a failing company anyway?
I must be missing something, but I don't see what MS's cunning plan here is supposed to be.
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Android sucks, it's just that people hadn't realised it yet.
Your carefully reasoned and almost grammatical argument has won me over.
Re:Kicking themselves yet? (Score:5, Interesting)
It seems more likely to me that the decision to partner with Microsoft was because they knew they wouldn't be making a profit and something had to change.
I think the real reason they're not making a profit is their phones are so dreadfully out of date with what people want now that they aren't selling as well. Nokia's had a branding and model issue for quite some time - go to nokia.com and see how many different phones you can find. Different colors, shapes, too many options. Too many OSs, no clear dev schemes for third parties.
Compare that against apple's previous 'We have one phone that comes in black' and current 'We have one phone that comes in black or white'.
First and foremost, Nokia is losing money because of Nokia.
Secondly Apple / Android is why Nokia is losing money.
Thirdly, Microsoft is why Nokia will continue to lose money.
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Thirdly, Microsoft is why Nokia will continue to lose money.
Which makes me (and others in my field) wonder... When is Microsoft planning on scooping up Nokia?
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Between two and six quarters from now. They'll let Nokia mostly bleed out before the "I don't want to go on the cart" scene happens.
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And then Apple will swoop in and buy them up right under Microsoft's nose.
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Why would apple want nokia? Do they want a piece of the "phones no one buys" market?
Seriously though, would it be to improve tech aspects that nokia does better than apple?
Or buy out a competitor only to destroy it?
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patents
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For Apple, the only reason would be patents. They don't want Nokia's market share. Microsoft wants the patents as well as the market share (or what little of that remains once they finally buy them).
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would that be Nokias 30% market share that is still 6 times lager then Apples 5%?
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Why would apple want nokia? Do they want a piece of the "phones no one buys" market?
Seriously though, would it be to improve tech aspects that nokia does better than apple?
Or buy out a competitor only to destroy it?
Nokia have the basics of cell phone design down to a fine art. Apple is still new to this game and makes cock-ups. Remember the ariel problems?
Apple and Nokia could result in a killer new iphone.
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And then Apple will swoop in and buy them up right under Microsoft's nose.
That would actually be pretty funny. I'm not sure what apple would get from the deal though.
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Between two and six quarters from now. They'll let Nokia mostly bleed out before the "I don't want to go on the cart" scene happens.
They're already being carried to it, bleats to the contrary are irrelevant.
We used to get almost exclusively Nokia phones (a few Blackberries for upper level PHBs), but in the last month or so any Nokia phones due for a refresh have been replaced mostly with HTC Android models. The number of employees exceeds 10^5 worldwide, so we're not a small operation. About half of the personnel in Europe have smartphones, but mobile phones are less common in the Americas (probably due to rip-off service prices). Do
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I agree on Nokia's unnecessary device proliferation, however not:
Too many OSs, no clear dev schemes for third parties.
Since S^3 (all S^3 phones ship with Qt 4.7) shipped, the dev scheme for all smart phones (including S60v3/S60v5, S^3, Maemo 5 / N900, upcoming Maemo6 or Meego devices) was Qt and Qt Quick. Until the MS agreement, which removed almost all incentive to develop for Symbian.
In the meantime, Qt for Android is coming along nicely ...
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Compare that against apple's previous 'We have one phone that comes in black' and current 'We have one phone that comes in black or white'.
Having a wide choice of models/specifications/options/colours doesn't seem to bother car manufacturers much.
Also, have you noticed that the first thing most people do when they buy an iPhone is get a coloured case/protector?
Re:Kicking themselves yet? (Score:5, Insightful)
No, this is why they signed a deal with the devil. Everybody has been taking a crack at Nokia lately and they haven't been able to deal a single decent blow in return, iPhone and Android have been eating the aging Symbian for lunch and the Maemo/Meego replacements haven't been ready. They could of course become the latecomer to Android, but so many companies now make good Android phones they'd be sure to disappoint. So they went to bed with Microsoft, the market already then realized it was a mark of desperation sinking their stock price. Now we learn it's actually worse. I figure the layoffs are about to begin and who do you think that will be, the Microsoft Phone developers or the Qt developers?
Good lord, it isn't about Symbian at all. (Score:5, Interesting)
Declare the maximum number of devices = 6 and maximum number of platforms = 2. 1 smartphone, 1 basic.
That solves 99% of the problems which Nokia have created for themselves.
Whether their smartphone platform was Symbian or Meego wouldn't have mattered, the R&D organisation would have been able to concentrate on actually making it good.
Their problem was not Symbian. Their problem was and still is 150 (yes really) different phone models. Elop hasn't actually fixed the problem.
Now like all Windows OEMs, they're a box shifter, so they need to get into a box shifter mindset. R&D will have to go entirely, there is no place for it in a low margin box shifting business.
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problem was not symbian? would agree to that for the most part.
problem was 150 phones? disagree to that. they sell huge numbers of phones all over the world. different markets and different users have different requirements and i always could find something that fitted exactly what i wanted in their hardware range. better than the apple one size fits all policy.
i think their problem was the way they kept changing symbian so that addon software from one year would not work on next years phone. the plat
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iPhone and Android have been eating the aging Symbian for lunch and the Maemo/Meego replacements haven't been ready.
It seems that the Maemo replacements *are* ready, except for a tussle with Intel about whether they can be called "Meego compatible", "Meego ready" or otherwise use the Meego brand. Since Intel now employs two thirds of the Technical Steering Group which makes this decision (Nokia's representative moved to Intel after the Nokia MS announcement), and Intel isn't happy about the Nokia MS announcement, the fact that the Maemo 6 phones haven't been announced is due to the MS agreement, not that the phones aren'
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That's quite true, even sociopathic businessmen should know that you don't announce "Our current phones are dead and our new phones won't be ready for a while". Instead, they're supposed to announce "Our old phones are dead, but see this brand new sparkly shiny phone in my hand? It's the new hotness and you want to buy one right now. There's a limited supply so only the first hundred people who line up on the right here with cash in hand will get the best phone the world has ever seen. No pushing or sho
Who's "they" (Score:3)
The CEO? Surely not! I bet he's very confident he'll get his old Microsoft job back plus bonuses in much the same way that Rick Belluzzo was given a President+COO job at Microsoft to thank him for killing PA-RISC and HPUX in favor of NT-on-Itanium (when we was EVP at HP) and killing IRIX and MIPS in favor of NT-on-Itanium when he was CEO of SGI.
The other shareholders? Sure, they got screwed; but they were probably so enamored with how awesome it was to be a microsoft partner that they never noticed.
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Nokia's problem?
The Communicator.
Nokia 9000,
Nokia 9500
Nokia E90.
Those where my last 3 Phones, and none of them could be bought outside of a small window, or at a decent price on a contract, at lest here in .AU When a customer wants to buy a phone, and they cant get the model they want though the stores, the partners or any shops what do they think will happen?
Those phones where fantastic, and held a high resale vale for a long time due to demand, but would Nokia make more available? No, most of the shops I
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Not as much as Microsoft do.
Major LOLZ.
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I bet that now they wish they never made that deal with The Devil Microsoft.
I guess the time to draw that conclusion is next year when there are some handsets out that use MS phone software. If they still don't sell Nokia is in deep shit. If sales pick up and Nokia launches a brace of tablets & other WP7 devices to huge acclaim then it will look smart.
Well duh (Score:2, Insightful)
It's been that way for decades.
Re:Well duh (Score:5, Insightful)
Announcing your platform is dead, not good for biz (Score:4, Insightful)
How is the lagging Symbian business, which has been rotting for years, remotely related to Microsoft?
When you tell the world you are jumping ship, you can expect many potential customers will as well. Similar to the Osbourne effect.
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That problem is that they didn't say 1: we're jumping ship and 2: we're launching WP7 devices within the next 30 days.
Letting symbian die a long slow death is monumentally stupid. They've had time to both think about this decision, and build the partnership with MS (or google), and actually implement solutions. Symbian should be dead already, and the only Nokia phone you should be able to buy should have WP7 (or whatever else they could have gone with).
Nokia is the (old) GM of the phone business. They ha
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Rotting for years is a massive mis-statement. While Symbian has more or less lost the smartphone market, it still dominates the feature phone market, of which Nokia was and still likely is king of. In developing markets they are still leaders with number of devices sold. The problem is that Nokia has traditionally put more money into the hardware and this is leading to the current situation where they are eating too much of their own margin in emerging markets. It used to be that their high-margin smartphon
Microsoft is salvation (Score:1)
The Microsoft deal has not kicked in yet.
The problems we see are Nokia without Microsoft.
Microsoft is Nokia's only hope for redemption and a seat back at the top of the market (Android would only have given them the former).
Same happend to their last cell-phone partner. (Score:3)
Same happened to their first cell phone partner
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/01/07/sendo_sues_microsoft_over_secret/ [theregister.co.uk]
"Microsoft's secret plan was to plunder the small company of its proprietary information, technical expertise, market knowledge, customers and prospective customers," the filing said. "Microsoft gained Sendo's trust and confidence through false promises that Sendo would be its 'go-to-market-partner'."
This information was passed onto low-cost manufacturers in Asia, Sendo alleges. The first Microsoft Smartphone launched in Europe was the Orange SUV, built by Taiwanese firm HTC. It will be interesting to see if this deal is dragged into the case.
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You partner with Microsoft, you pay the price.
It's been that way for decades.
Like HP, Acer, Dell, Sony, Asus, HTC and tens of thousands of ISV's ? Not to mention that it was Microsoft which forced the prices of computers down(leading to the x86 takeover of the server environment on which Linux thrives) due to licensing to multiple OEMs so they became affordable to the general public and the rest of the world. If you think Apple's prices are high now, imagine what they would be if there was minimal competition.
Nokia's situation is in a major because not being able to implement Mee
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>The ISVs were bullied plenty by Microsoft. The past 10 years haven't been as bad because MS was under the microscope.
Name more than a handful of ISVs that were bullied by MS apart from the few standard ones referenced like DR-DOS and DRVSPACE. Compare that number to the number of companies that hit it big (and still do) by being ISVs. And name other companies that have been friendlier to partners regarding backwards compatibility etc.
>Yeah, MICROSOFT did that. No one else, no other reason, but MICROS
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mm, if they wanted to be distinctive from other phone makers, they probably should have gone with meego platform and developed cool, unique, usable and highly customisable applications.
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Make a deal with the Devil; Get Burned! (Score:1)
Low point or not (Score:1)
Will be interesting to see if this is their low point or if it is heading down to their low point. The other manufacturers are putting out some pretty schmick Android phones at the moment and the iPhone 5 should be released (or at least talked about) in the not too distant future. Nokia's competition seems to be strengthening while it's away regrouping.
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Nah (Score:2)
They're just copying the Microsoft XBox model, sell at a loss and hopefully make it up elsewhere.
Little to do with MS. (Score:5, Interesting)
TFA says it's mostly due to them getting cut at both ends. By the Chinese on low price phones, which Nokia has traditionally sold an ass-ton of, world wide. And by android and apple on the top end. (I think this is a lot more in the US than the ROTW, but US is a big smartphone market...)
Kind of a shame really, I was looking forward to more N900-esque phones, but I don't think that will be happening anymore. I'll also miss smartphones with buttons on them.
"It remains to be seen how low [market share] could go, but for smartphones we are talking about going under 20% this year." Only two years ago Nokia had a 40% share of the smartphone market, but it was passed in the first quarter of this year by Android, with 32%. Nokia had 24% and Apple 18%.
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It would also have put them under Google's thumb. Had they not been weighed down by ineffective bureaucracy and allowed the Internet Tablet teams to execute with more support than they had with the N900, they might have had something worthwhile.
But alas, the Symbian teams kept pumping out more terrible devices. And with Elop on board I'd be shocked if it wasn't decided to move to WP7 as soon as he walked through the doors, but just
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They are doing pretty bad in western Europe too, it's certainly not just the US.
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All the money is really at the high end. Nokia went from owning 29% to owning 24% of the smart phone market. Everyone predicted that they would lose a lot of the market, but I don't think anyone predicted it would be that bad, that quickly.
When Nokia decided to switch to Windows, they knew that they would have to limp along selling their old phones this year. People were obviously going to buy fewer phones and they were going to want them at a cheaper price because they're EOL. Hopefully next year when
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It could easily have to do with MS (or better say, Elop's deal with MS): I sure as hell wouldn't buy a Symbian smartphone, once Elop announced Symbian is on the chopping block. Would you?
Haha! (Score:1, Troll)
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A lot of the Symbian hate is justified, it's a bit of a pain to develop for and things like that (although new symbian releases support Qt right? should make things easier).
But symbian has some nice features too. Like being designed ground up for phones, so you get things like having much longer battery life - days, not hours. Try that with an iphone or android.
Not Microsoft. They have the GM problem (Score:2)
The TFA said that, as I've suggested over and over again that cheap Chinese phones are eating their lunch at the low end and Android and iPhone have been eating their lunch at the high end.
They have the GM problem. Being number one doesn't keep you immune from having to still pull a profit.
Granted in future quarters Microsoft is going to probably be an albatross on their necks, but that's not Elop's fault, it's OPK's fault.
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Actually, profit from their phone division has been dropping like a stone since 2007.
I'm willing to bet that had Elop not announced Symbian being dead in the water, they'd still be faced with profit problems.
This is OPK's fault, as it has been since the iPhone gave them a giant shellacking back in 07 and Android in 08.
Oh what could have been (Score:2)
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Nokia will rue the day Apple comes out with a $100 iPhone, they'll be relegated to making cheap solar powered 'dumb phones' to sell to developing countries.
So Apple will have to double the price of the 3gs [apple.com]? And there are several Droids for ~$100, aren't there?
Not sure about the rest of the world, but in the US, I only see two things keeping non-Droid/non-iOS phones from being 100% of the market. First is that for some people, even a $49 phone is too much. Second is the carriers. Be it from forced pricey contracts or whatever religious mania that has people attracted to non-Verizon/non-AT&T carriers.
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That might have worked, but Apple already had a bad experience with an traditional phone maker, Motorola. They recoiled because it was clear that Motorola just didn't get interfaces.
Loan Time (Score:2)
Maybe they can get Microsoft to prop them up with some money? I'm sure Redmond would like to keep their partner going strong.
Maybe MS will pick them up for 8 billion (Score:2)
They should've went with their Linux phones (Score:2)
The Nokia N7xx-8xx were really, really nice for a smartphone and plenty hackable and had a large (open source) software repository by the time Apple came up to speed with the App Store. The main reasons those platforms bled to death was because they didn't want to invest even a fraction of time and money in it. The community around it was great however but Nokia euthanized it at the point they needed it the most. It could've beat Android before it even became successful, it has all the same great features o
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They weren't smartphones, they were internet tablets.
But the N900 is. I own one, and am holding onto it tight for now. Is it perfect? No, mostly because a lot of its applications are a bit too slow. But it's a good start, I'm thinking if they had invested real money into improving and polishing this, and done that early enough, maemo could have been a competitive platform. Keeping Qt as the glue between their two platforms (symbian and maemo) during a potentially long transition phase was also a reasonable strategy. The dumb- or dumbish- phone market is less
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I used it as a smartphone though using SIP. These days you really don't need a cellular phone system, you just need the data portion, WiMax or one of those 4G-to-WiFi devices.
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The real problem is phone usage. (Score:2)
I work for a large cellular firm. Not more than a handful of employees use our software products but instead use the Apple iPhone. It shows in the software quality side of our product. If we actually used our own product, those errors would disappear because they are obvious and the developer would fix his own phone.
I suspect the same thing happens at Nokia. I am currently running a Nokia N8. Hands down, the best cell hardware available. I can make calls, from my office, will full bars indicated. My
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My guess is that Elop has a Blackberry or a Windows 7 phone. It starts at the top. He should own and use the N8.
Hehehe - I'm sorry, but Elop... use a phone?! I'm reminded of Bill Gates' infamous Windows Usability Systematic degradation flame [seattlepi.com] email. Bill might have actually made some good points if he didn't sound so much like your average pensioner calling into an ISP helpdesk.
Either Bill's more of a Mac guy then he's been letting on, or when you get that powerful you just don't do these things for yourself. Either way "dogfooding" does not apply to the CEO.
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My guess is that Elop has a Blackberry or a Windows 7 phone. It starts at the top. He should own and use the N8.
I guess the E7 or something would be more appropriate: that's their top end business phone. The N8 is consumer.
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This MUST be true. My wife has an N97. I do not believe for one moment that one single manager or exec at Nokia uses that piece of garbage. They probably still use their N95.
Truth is that with N97, Nokia probably lost its entire early adopter base. My wife's next phone will with 100% certainly not be a Nokia, and she was a Nokia-only customer.
I have an N900. Even though I don't hack on it, I really like it as a phone, but I feel abandoned after shelling out $500 for it on preorder.
F*ck these guys. They cert
Low Point (Score:2)
could mark the low point for Nokia
Nope, not yet.
Not a surprise (Score:2)
I have seen it coming. Nokia have been living in their comfortable telco-friendly niche for too long.
1. They have a ton of low-end models, each one seems to have different menus and a lot of missing features, as if telcos got to choose what features to remove so that they can try to sell a new phone contract every year.
2. Their middle-range models also lack in features and the quality does not always reflect the price. I paid 240 EUR and the side keys fell apart in one year.
3. Their high-end phones were bas
you don't get it, do you? (Score:2)
Death Knell (Score:2)
Sorry, Nokia, but that's what you get. Time to short NOK like it's going out of business.
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Goatse link.
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I think a Microsoft buyin is a sure bet.
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