RIM Confirms Android Apps Will Run On Playbook, Through Intermediate Players 113
angry tapir writes "Research In Motion has announced that users of its PlayBook tablet will be able to run Android and Java applications. The PlayBook, which becomes available on April 19, will have two optional 'app players' that will provide run-time environments for BlackBerry Java apps and Android 2.3 apps. The players will let users download BlackBerry Java Apps and Android Apps from BlackBerry App World."
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I'm not sure limited hardware is fair. Dual core 1GHz, 1 Gig of ram is going to be pretty much on par with dual core smart phones or smaller tablets.
The software side of things... I'm skeptical but you never know. Though RIM is aiming for the business crowd, not home users, so if its gaming performance on android apps is horrid I'm not sure that's a huge problem.
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* I am no fan of RIM, nor a hater, ive owned one blackberry and use android now
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I'm guessing that by "intermediate player," they actually mean "Java Runtime Environment" or something to that effect.
Quality (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Quality (Score:5, Informative)
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Don't forget that for you to be able to load an app, it HAS to be from the BlackBerry Store. Even if it's an Android app. No side loading one yourself. No downloading from Amazon or the Android store.
So you can ONLY download an Android app if:
-it's designed for use on a phone [no Android tablet apps]
-the developer has signed up as a BlackBerry developer, signed and faxed the various documents to them, then uploaded their app to the store
-RIM has approved their app for sale
Somehow, I don't think most of t
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Don't forget that for you to be able to load an app, it HAS to be from the BlackBerry Store
Sorry, where did you run across this? You've been able to load apps of all sorts from virtually any source on BB for years -- why would this change on the PB?
I've been following this pretty closely, and RIM has certainly not mentioned anything remotely like this.
No, I don't believe a word of this. Your post is FUD, plain and simple.
Re:Quality (Score:4, Informative)
At least for Android, it sounds pretty clear that they're cutting Google's store out of the picture.
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Yeah. It's possibly that RIM might enable you to side load it for end-users, but the press release makes it sound like RIM wants their 30%...
I really hope RIM lets developers side-load Android apps for debugging as the "high-degree of compatibility" should keep developers on their toes. This should also boost early sales of the Playbook.
And I wonder how running 2 different Java VM's along with separate native apps have on battery life...
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It's possible they don't use Dalvik at all but have adapted their existing JVM to exhibit multiple personalities for both their existing Java ME applications and Android.
e.g. Implementing class libraries for both Java ME and Android but running on the same virtual machine architecture may reduce the footprint through shared libraries.
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Dalvik bytecode isn't the same as Java byecode. If they use one executable to handle both, it's effectively 2 VMs anyway.
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the bytecode might not be identical but is sufficiently interoperable. Volunteer developers from the IcedRobot project have in a matter of weeks produced a java classloader to dynamically run a hello world application directly from a dalvik dex file with an eventual goal of running the entire android API minus dalvik VM.
i.e. Unmodified Android app binaries running atop a regular jvm.
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Thanks for that. I should have checked out the original source first
Still, it sounds like the signing process is just for App World. I just can't imagine that they'd do something as stupid as to only allow Android apps via App World. As it stands now, on just about any current BB smartphone, you can install any app you want from your computer, the web, or (at least in OS 6) from an SD card.
The walled-garden approach would be a huge mistake for RIM.
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It depends on how Android apps on QNX actually work.
(1) If they've ported dalvik from Linux to QNX then dex binaries might work unmodified from the Google App Store.
(2) If they've adapted their existing JVM, a translation from dex back to standard java bytecode may be required. (Android translates java bytecode into a special format for execution on dalvik)
The second scenario imposes a technical limitation on repackaging an app for BB. The IcedRobot project is using a special Java classloader, 'Daneel', to
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You've been able to load apps of all sorts from virtually any source on BB for years -- why would this change on the PB?
Well RIM has to adapt to the new business model that Apple has made so successful. Blackberry has had apps for at least ten years but it was difficult to find certain apps because each ISV had to market their software individually. Hanadango [handango.com] (founded in 1999) capitalized on that problem starting in 2003 for the Symbian [wikipedia.org] platform and adding new platforms as they materialized.
Add to that the fact that the PlayBook is running QNX [wikipedia.org] and not legacy BB OS and it's not hard to see them making it difficult to install
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Well RIM has to adapt to the new business model that Apple has made so successful.
Er, I don't know that "screwing the user" is the best lesson to take from Apple's success -- I mean, what is there to gain by making it more difficult for users to load apps on their devices?
RIM is the #2 smartphone manufacturer in the world (Nokia is #1). In 2010, Blackberry was the best selling smartphone brand in the US, Canada, Latin America, and the UK.
But somehow forcing their users into a walled garden will suddenly make them more successful? I don't get it.
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This would actually be really cool. A blackberry phone running Android as it's OS.
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Such a device would also have full Exchange support without having to have fscking BES. That would be amazing. The only reason we buy Blackberries is because of their international roaming rates, not the devices themselves.. which are generally awful.
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Such a device would also have full Exchange support without having to have fscking BES. That would be amazing.
That would be amazingly awful. There is a reason companies go with RIM's solution and it has everything to do with the BB/BES (client/server). For starters it is so secure not even your companies IT department or RIM itself can easily intercept data (They can still get to it easily on the Exchange server). Add to that the near bulletproof reliability (yes there have been notable exceptions and they are so noted) compared to Activesync (goes down at least once a month here) and the fact I frequently get ema
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We've never had a problem with DirectPUSH/ActiveSync here. We did however have a problem with BES not playing nicely with the DNS server. Likewise whenever I've left DirectPUSH active on any of my phones, they beep before Outlook gets new mail. Anecdotal evidence is pretty pointless.
Any IT dept can "easily intercept data" just by logging into your Exchange account. IT in fact need to be able to access employees' email if someone is off sick, dies, whatever. Acting as if your IT dept is somehow your enemy is
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It's clear you are not aware of the primary reason most companies use BES. If you are interested here are some links that should be enlightening.
RIM's security encryption explained
http://us.blackberry.com/ataglance/security/features.jsp [blackberry.com]
India threatens to shut down Blackberry service because they cannot snoop on BB users.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/igeneration/blackberry-encryption-too-secure-national-security-vs-consumer-privacy/5732 [zdnet.com]
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It seems more likely to me that you are unaware what's actually going on in that diagram. I would expect a slashdotter in the 6 digit range to understand this stuff (I already knew how it worked before looking at the diagram just from what others have said about it), so maybe I'm just interpreting what you're saying wrong, but it seems to me that you're just falling for marketing hype without looking into it. How about explain to me in your own words why it's more secure, rather than just linking to a prett
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It would not suprise me if they (at some point in the future) move to a core Android OS
I doubt it. RIM bought QNX [wikipedia.org] last year which will debut on the PlayBook. Rumor has it that RIM will adapt the OS for use on their upcoming line of smartphones, putting an end to their aging OS.
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I wonder how the quality of the BB ecosystem will go over time though, sure it's a boon to have access to all the Android apps but will people develop native PlayBook apps knowing that they could just develop an Android one that runs on the PB *and* on Android devices?
It depends how well they can get the device to run Android apps. Android is all open source, so they could probably just use a lot of the Android code outright -- which means that the Android apps will effectively be running natively on Blackberry devices. At that point there might be some small advantage to a native app vs. an Android app, but it's got to be smaller than the benefit of having all the Android apps that never would have had native Blackberry versions.
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will people develop native PlayBook apps knowing that they could just develop an Android one that runs on the PB *and* on Android devices?
Very likely. There are two official frameworks for PlayBook apps. One is HTML5 - and this is easily made portable to iPad right now, and those upcoming webOS tablets shortly. Another is Adobe AIR, and the attractive thing about it is that there are many existing developers and designers familiar with it, which can now apply their skills directly on a mobile platform with first-class support (as opposed to, say, AIR on Anrdoid).
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I wonder how the quality of the BB ecosystem will go over time though, sure it's a boon to have access to all the Android apps but will people develop native PlayBook apps knowing that they could just develop an Android one that runs on the PB *and* on Android devices?
I think this was one of IBM's mistakes with OS/2 Warp. It ran Win3.1 and DOS apps so well that no-one made native apps for OS/2.
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yes they will if they want to make better programs than the competition - and they will have to do that. however it'll be interesting which vm is fastest on the device.
Sideloading (Score:4, Insightful)
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this was my comment, did not notice that FF4.0 have not took over the cookies from the 3.6
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Having an app signed is a good thing for business devices. It takes away the burden of verifying every single one developer of that 99cent flashlight app yourself. On the other hand I totally get the GPL3 motivation. So may be there is a meaningful way that resolves both challenges - the one of a user and of a tinkerer.
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"Complicated and boring" (Score:3)
Who was it said that UI interface designers mostly wouldn't recognise security if it stood in front of them with its name in big red letters an a T-shirt and hit them with a clue bat till they got the point? Probably me.
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It still didn't sell that much, only because it didn't maintain the coolness factor like Apple devices do
Yes, I'm sure that's the only reason, and not the fact that it was not available in any US carrier's store.
People just want to buy good looking devices with simple UIs
What's wrong with that? Simple is good.
They don't use their devices to do the things they are actually able to do (big news!).
Like what? Who are you to tell me what I want to do on my device?
For the record, I'm an Anonymous Coward, because it just is too complicated and boring to set up a Slashdot account (or any web page account for that matter). The OS should provide a general interface for this and the web pages should use it. Computers exist so that we don't have to do these things twice.
In other words, you're lazy. It takes 2 seconds to create an account, and afterward, your browser is going to remember who you are.
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Like the Wii, PS3, X-Box, and the various handhelds?
This is a great move for RIM (Score:5, Insightful)
Doing this gives Blackberry devices a chance to compete on merit instead of on how many apps they have. And it gives developers a unified target for app development -- make an Android app and it will run on both Android devices and Blackberries, which strengthens both platforms at the expense of their other competitors.
This is what Nokia should have done.
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>>The question becomes how they are going to handle sideloading and competing markets.
If you read the story, you'd know why it's not an issue.
YOu can't use the android market.
Apps have to be repackaged for BB.
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YOu can't use the android market.
RIM don't have a choice on that one. Google wouldn't license the Market to them.
I can't see any reason why a common app store couldn't be used by both platforms though. Don't forget there are already a handful of competing app stores on Android. It would be a big competitive boost for one of these to support Android + BB. Unless RIM blocks side loading (for the app store app itself) I can't see this NOT happening.
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You understand that you as a developer can just pick one to use and not worry about the others, don't you? More is better.
And the idea that apps have to be packaged for Blackberry is no real impediment if the packaging process is sufficiently automated. If they can get it to where all an Android developer has to do is check the box that says "package for Blackberry" then there won't really be any reason not to do it.
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>>You understand that you as a developer can just pick one to use and not worry about the others, don't you? More is better.
Yeah. I also understand pragmatism.
I also understand that most things in the world are finite. Especially development resources.
Worring about 4 different ways 3rd parties can get code on the platform is a nightmare for RIM. Thats a huge amount of wasted focus, effort, and resources.
And as an outside developer, I *know* it's untenable. Something will have to get cut loose at some
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Worring about 4 different ways 3rd parties can get code on the platform is a nightmare for RIM. Thats a huge amount of wasted focus, effort, and resources.
It seems to me that if they continue their decline -- which, if they don't give developers plenty of ways to make apps that run on Blackberries, they will -- then it doesn't matter how many development methods there are because the whole platform is sunk. Whereas if they do this and succeed then they'll have the resources necessary to keep things going. Look at Windows -- how many are included in just Visual Studio support, to say nothing of third party development methods?
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Clusterfuck. No third party is going to take them seriously until they can get their story straight.
I seem to remember a lot of outrage here on Slashdot last year when Apple tried to "get their story straight" when it came to iOS development:
Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs
It seems developers want to have lots of options.
No wonder their shares fell 10% today. If i owned any I'd be looking for the exits.
That would be a bit short-sighted. They're still the #2 smartphone producer in the world, and have been growing rapidly over the past three years. With Nokia (#1) likely out of the game for the rest of this year, RIM is well positioned to expand into Nokia's territory.
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What merits? The android apps run in what amounts to an emulator. And they have to be repackaged to do so. And no Honeycomb apps. (You know, those apps that are actually designed for a tablet.) They are only now releasing the "real" SDK, so native apps are a long way off. I can't imagine who besides a BB lover would want to buy one now.
Re:This is a great move for RIM (Score:4, Insightful)
Seems like a poor idea to me as it means developers won't specifically target the playbook, instead relying on their existing Android developments.
OS/2 suffered the same problem with it's Windows compatibility. No-one actually wrote anything for it as they just targetted Windows instead knowing that it running on OS/2 was an addition benefit.
Whilst it may mean they get access to hundreds of applications immediately, the longer they leave it, the more dependent they are on maintaining compatibility with Android in order for their platform to succeed - and they could have got themselves into that mess far cheaper and easier by just releasing an Android tablet.
Compatibility didn't kill OS/2 (Score:2)
That is the frequently cited reason for OS/2 having few native apps, but I don't believe it. Windows95 ran DOS apps. OSX ran MacOS apps. Playstation1 compatibility didn't stop developers from writing games for PS2. Being able to keep their old apps after making the transition helped all those platforms immense
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3rd party programs and hardware support.
those are the reasons we ditched os/2 at home after a short while - and you know what, it didn't actually multitask up to it's reputation that much better than win32. and finding free programs was actually a bitch. which is actually what j2me and bb's java are pretty good for, finding some small programs to do some small thing, exotic unit converters for example and android support helps with this too.
however! the most interesting thing here is that they're proposing
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Now, if Blackberry intends on becoming just a hardware company, than
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The big problem BB has is that competing on merit will leave it bankrupt in short order. I've had several for work and they are the worst POS phones (from a usability standpoint). I'll grant they are tough, but a tough POS is still a POS.
java is a success story (Score:3, Funny)
Since its introduction, it has taken the world by storm. Applications run perfectly anywhere.
Write once. Run on Mac, Windows, Linux. Works great. Threads, networking. And it is
also very secure as applications are sandboxed.
Combined with XML, RMI, JB, servlets, SWING, ACID, JVM, WORA, API, JRE, JEE,
JIT, JDK, CORBA, IIOP, JDBC, AWT, NIO, etc. it offers a powerful environment.
And it is object oriented that is OO!
And pretty much all universities teach it. Did you know even Oracle is partly written
in Java, it has improved their product tremendously! All desktop computers com
with Java preinstalled - working perfectly. And most applications these days
are also in Java - if nothing else this should prove its superiority.
Also java made everything simple. They banished unsigned types. Thread
based networking, very slim runtime, easy web applets that are everywhere
these days, everything is an Object, no memory corruption/crashes so even
a monkey can write code (you don't need to know what you're doing
to be a java programmer, isn't that great), take threads, so easy anyone
is encouraged to add them into their application. Java code is also
very easy to read but still very compact.
The creators of Java did the industry a great service. I salute them!
Terrible (Score:1)
Let's wait for the benchmarks, shall we? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's possible Dalvik apps could run *faster* on the new Blackberry than on Android!
QNX is an embedded RTOS that's allegedly light years ahead of Linux for certain things. If RIM have managed to port Dalvik to QNX minus the design choices of Google's Linux-fork, Dalvik could seem just as 'native' on QNX than the 'official' Android.
iOS app player (Score:2)
With iOS app player, PlayBook can be the real iphone killer :)
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You mean a real iPad law suite. Last time I checked, the iOS API was proprietary to Apple, possibly under copyright and trade secrete IP laws. Although, an interpreter or emulator doesn't seem all much of an issue though.
Re:iOS app player (Score:4, Informative)
You can't copyright an API.
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Being 'on hold' equals Steve threatened to sue?
Clever (Score:3, Insightful)
questionable move (Score:3)
We've seen this strategy before (sort of) in OS/2.. running your competitors software seems like a good thing when you don't have much native software, but in the end it just undermines the market for native software and leads to the obvious question of why someone wouldn't just buy your competitors platform in the first place.
Maybe RIM will be able to provide enough unique value to maintain sales, they do have a massive presence in the business world. OTOH, IBM had a pretty big influence in business computing and OS/2 had a lot of unique capabilities.
Maybe they figured they were screwed anyway and this is just a move to extend the platform's life a while longer.
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If Android apps run just as well on Playbook and (via IcedRobot or Myriad Alien) Meego, Bada or WebOS, then you have the advantage of the native ecosystem + android.
Each of these niche OSes compete on various strengths - their challenge is to create a compelling Ux (User eXperience, as seems the term in vogue) on which to host native apps. If the native environment provides a nicer, more intuitive shell than the stock Android from Google then you're getting a superset of functionality.
e.g. Wine on Gnome/KDE
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That's a really big "if". Historically operating systems that attempt to run other platform's applications tend to do a more or less crap job of it.
I'd be more interested to see an Android device from RIM where they have ported/adapted the good things about the blackberry platform (which does not include running it's apps :), rather than a blackberry where they've tacked on part of Android.
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"...leads to the obvious question of why someone wouldn't just buy your competitors platform in the first place."
Right. "See this, it's the new RIM PlayBook and it can run Android apps!"
"Cool! So I just go to the Android Marketplace and... what?"
"Well. No. It will run some Android apps. Sort of. If they've been ported to the Dingleberry App World and..."
"Stop. If I want to run Android apps, why don't I just buy an Android?"
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yep.. sounds like RIM's approach with Android apps is a lot like the way OS/2 ran Windows programs, but only certain programs, and not quite as easily as Windows did. expect the same issues with compatibility and lack of full functionality to come up here.
for instance, will the playbook support android widgets on its home screen? that's a huge advantage of the android platform imho. also, will you be able to share data between android apps using the share button and/or the filesystem like you can on a
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it wouldn't be that difficult if google didn't withhold the sources.
android on qnx kernel though, that would be an interesting experiment(their bionic library solution actually might make such a port simplish).
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" ... We've seen this strategy before (sort of) in OS/2.. running your competitors software seems like a good thing when you don't have much native software, but in the end it just undermines the market for native software and leads to the obvious question of why someone wouldn't just buy your competitors platform in the first place. ..."
I think the idea is that your platform has some advantage to users or functionality that the "other" platform doesn't, and so the incentive is there for users to choose tha
This can only shake out one way! (Score:2)
When you think about it, the tablet situation can only end in one way. There can be only one major platform in the end. Sure, you will have you niche products, but developers dont want to develop for 3 or 4 competing platforms. It costs time and money to do it.
This is what RIM understands. This is why they built in support for Android Apps, and too be honest, it just makes sense.
Looks, we all love apple products right? (I personally hate the company and wont give them a dime, but hey, I do like the product)
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"BUT, and it's a big but, who stands to make money from Apple products in the long run? Apple. Who else? Ah...Apple?"
You do remember that moment in the iPad 2 announcement when Steve announced that Apple has paid out two billion dollars to iOS developers, right?
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You do know that two billion does not hold a candle to the combined sales of every other hardware maker in the world right?
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You do know that two billion does not hold a candle to the combined sales of every other hardware maker in the world right?
I think if anyone else distributing applications for mobile devices had paid an amount anywhere remotely near two billion dollars to developers, we would have heard about it. We haven't.
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I know you are but what am I?
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They're not hardware makers any more - they're hardware designers that outsource manufacturing to Chinese and Taiwanese contractors - (in fact the same people Apple use) - and mostly outsource software to Google (we'll see what comes of WebOS - but seeing how HP missed the opportunity to get behind consumer Unix in the past I'm not hopeful).
Apple at least control their destiny on software and are locking up hardware supplies to control that too... The rest are left scrambling for scraps...
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"Remember that *ALL* ad revenue, *ALL* store purchases, and *ALL* subscription based purchases must go through them."
Ummm... don't think so. Apple would prefer that you use iAds, but it's not the only choice. And existing subscribers or subscriptions purchased outside of the store are valid.
"...minus a 30% fee..."
Again with the fee. Don't people have any idea what fees people were charging application developers prior to the App Store for sales and marketplace services? 50% and 70% of the cut were common.
"G
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I think it's much better to fill a ni
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Here's the weird thing about hardware manufacturing - it's pretty much all contracted out to third parties - meaning Apple (unlike Nintendo say - who are an anachronism) have access to pretty much the entire tablet manufacturing capacity of the planet. This is very different from when Apple (and HP and whoever else - seems most computer manucturers are gone) had their own factories that limited their capacity.
So the other tablet "manufacturers" are competing with Apple for those resources - except Apple is
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**There can be only one major platform in the end.**
what is this end you speak of? 2012? or perhaps 2032? that there will be one dominant end platform is an investor day dream, of an investor who was born yesterday. platforms come and go. operating systems come and go. stupid ui fashions come and go, sdk's come and go, middleware vm's come and go. code styles come and go. chipsets come and go. companies and their assets come and go and get sold and resold.
but rock'n'roll is forever and some things last long
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"They want to tie their SW to only their hardware."
I think some people are going to be very, very surprised in the very near future.
Seems like its first game, then... (Score:2)
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The difference being that BB licensed Java. Google did not.
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The difference being that BB licensed Java. Google did not.
I see you've already created a weapon for my proposed "game": A legal logic bomb, wherein one side's lawyers claim that something is "open" and available for one and all to use - and then when the game's opposing lawyers permit their side to use it, it blows right the hell up.
The blood...the gore...the squandered wealth...
Lovely idea.
Good for Android, developers, consumers, and RIM (Score:1)
This is a great move for opening up the mobile market, and preventing unnecessary vendor lock-in. Right now people buy closed hardware because they like the closed apps that developers have written for the ecosystem. But when you can start to mix and match hardware and software, you'll be able to buy the device that you want and still get the apps that you want. It also reduces the overhead for developers, will bring business apps to android, and brings an app ecosystem to RIM. Great move!
Dumb. (Score:2)
They're just doing this so they can claim that it runs tons of apps.
Are these the words of a cynical, Android-hating, iPhone-loving twit? No, they are words of RIM's CEO. [businessinsider.com]
"You've got the volume of the handset apps, so if you're looking for the tonnage of apps, or some kind of long tail stuff, you've got it. At the end of the day, people are going to want performance. You're just not going to get things like gaming and multimedia, you're not going to get the speed going through a VM interface."
Also note that
This might be awesome... (Score:1)