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Portables Hardware

Warning: Exploding Batteries 260

Posted by timothy from the and-exploding-and-exploding dept.
batlike writes "It seems I have been quite lucky up to this point as I habitually leave my laptop in the trunk of my car - which is just over the gas tank (duh!) . See this article in InfoWorld by Ephraim Schwartz for details. You may want to give it a once over if you currently use lithium-ion batteries."
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Warning: Exploding Batteries More

Warning: Exploding Batteries

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  • Not a fireball (Score:5, Interesting)

    by shuz ( 706678 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @10:32AM (#7844764) Homepage Journal
    Of course they don't really explode into a fire ball but rather short circuit, heat up, melt, and leak acid everywhere.
    • Unfortunately, that will be just as harmful to my laptop and obviously not even close to as awesome as a raging fireball engulfing my car and causing chains of massive explosions.
    • Of course they won't leak acid everywhere, for the simple fact that unless you're talking about lead-based car batteries, they don't contain any acid. :)

      • Re:Not a fireball (Score:2, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        actually... they do contain acid...

        superacid with negative pkA..

        It's just not a liquid, its a solid conductive polymer and it's not corrosive.

    • Re:Not a fireball (Score:5, Funny)

      by kfg ( 145172 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @10:55AM (#7844947)
      Overheated NiCads are far more impressive. Gas and acid start shooting out of the vent hole under high pressure, turning them into a rocket if they are sitting loose.

      Did ya know that people will scatter like crazy when that happens? They jump up on the banquet tables and everything. Quite a sight.

      KFG
      • They can also go into thermal runaway. I've seen pictures of charred helicopters after the NiCad batteries destroyed themselves due to excessive temperature and current drain.

    • Re:Not a fireball (Score:5, Interesting)

      by arivanov ( 12034 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @11:00AM (#7844991) Homepage
      Litium is extremely toxic. And the energy density in an average laptop battery is enough to bring more then enough of it in the air.

      The scary part is that got allowed on board of airplanes after the FAA got convinced that correctly operating bateries are safe. Well... This brings up the obvious question - what about incorrectly operating ones. And what about ones that have had their short circuit protection removed? Nearly perfect bomb and perfectly legal to bring onboard passing all security checks with flying colours.

      Scary...

      • Re:Not a fireball (Score:5, Informative)

        by Kazymyr ( 190114 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @11:11AM (#7845080) Journal
        Lithium is toxic, but only in huge amounts and, more importantly, only after a long exposure (weeks). It is used in the treatment of certain psychiatric disorders, and it isn't unusual for a patient to receive several grams of lithium daily. A short-term toxic dose of lithium is probably contained in about 20 or so batteries, and only assuming you inhale ALL of the fumes resulting from their explosion. Not likely to happen.
        • Err... I beg to differ sir.

          You are mistaking the lethality levels for mildly toxic lithium salts taken orally with the lethality levels for various compounds (including LiOH) coming from combustion of lithium ion batteries. Besides some of them having a much lower LDA50, they will also be considerably more dangerous because they will be inhaled.

          • Okay, in that case nickel batteries are even worse - they can also explode, and contain KOH, which is a stronger base than LiOH due to the ionic radius of potassium... :)
      • If they banned LiIon batteries on planes, hoards of irate businessmen would become more of a nuesance than any terrorist threat. And you'd probably have to have a lot of the batteries to fully saturate the air, and I don't think anybody would risk it enough to make a bunch of passengers nautious.

      • Calm down (Score:5, Insightful)

        by SuperBanana ( 662181 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @11:29AM (#7845213)
        And what about ones that have had their short circuit protection removed?

        You can't, it's often integral to the cell, so a fair amount of surgery is involved.

        Nearly perfect bomb and perfectly legal to bring onboard passing all security checks with flying colours.

        Oh for chrissakes...no, something that would get really hot, start smoking, and then catch fire. Ever since(and in fact before) the Valuejet incident, planes have smoke detectors and fire suppression systems in their cargo holds, so it's a moot point if it ends up in cargo vs. carry-on. The issue of toxicity is moot because that's why planes have oxygen systems that the pilot can deploy. The mask systems in the cockpits are also usually much better than the paper-cup jobbies the Cattle get.

        People- Calm. The. Fuck. Down. Planes don't explode because something inside them catches fire, they don't start crashing because someone shoots a gun, yadda yadda. Cars don't explode because a battery overheats in the trunk. Stop watching so many action movies...

        • Blockquoth the poster:

          Cars don't explode because a battery overheats in the trunk. Stop watching so many action movies...

          Nah. If we were using action movie physics, we'd all see that cars don't explode because a battery overheats. Cars explode because they come in the slightest contact with anything whatsoever. :)
        • Hmm,

          I bet you could freak folk out with a 6 pack of beer, a stopwatch with countdown timer and a big display(use red led for backlight), gaffer (duck) tape and some spare shoelaces...

          " I can explain officer. I taped the beers so I wouldn't be tempted to drink them until my stopwatch reached zero...I took my laces off to let my feet breathe and taped them to the cans so I didn't lose them"

          On the other hand, it's kinda difficult to explain with a 9mm hole thru your head"
      • >Nearly perfect bomb

        What? Lithium is toxic, sure. But not toxic enough for your "nearly perfect bomb" scenario.

        I'll agree that batteries might be slightly more dangerous than some of the stuff that's not allowed, but I really don't think it's much of a weapon.

        "By the kidneys of Allah, some of you may experience renal failure from this toxic exposure! You infidels with low sodium levels may be susceptible to a chronic degeneration of your central nervous system!"

        Somehow, that just doesn't rise to t
    • I was using a rather ancient Thinkpad (P233 - excellent screen and keyboard though!) whose battery life had progressively gotten worse. Once I was sitting there using it and the laptop went POP! I ripped out the battery as fast as I could. I didn't see any external leakage, so I just threw the battery away (oops, I know that's bad) and continue to use the computer sans battery.

    • Re:Not a fireball (Score:3, Informative)

      by sjames ( 1099 )

      Of course they don't really explode into a fire ball but rather short circuit, heat up, melt, and leak acid everywhere.

      While they don't literally explode as in ka-boom, they do 'vent with flame' (a phrase the industry prefers to use) not unlike a torch flame. Thus, they have a much greater chance of causing injury or starting a fire than other battery types.

  • Hear this, Apple? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by FuzzyDaddy ( 584528 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @10:33AM (#7844773) Journal
    Ozbek advises users to replace lithium-ion batteries every two to three years. Two years is the safest time period, as constant recharging weakens the battery.

    So if you buy something where you can't change the battery, expect a finite life out of it!

    • So if you buy something with a battery, expect that you will get a finite life about it, and think about how or where you will get a replacement before you buy the product.
    • OK, I get it. Anytime anything has the word "battery" in it we will get a hundred bozos spreading FUD about the iPod.

      Article: "Mrs. Haines was accused of assault and battery."

      Moron: "Just like Apple, beating up on their iPod customers..."

      or

      Article: "The battery at Ft. Sumter was under attack for many days."

      Moron: "Just like iPods dirty little secret, we should attack the evil Apple iPod empire!"

      It might be worth noting that Dictionary.com lists the electrical-storage-device definition of battery as t

  • Love the quality reporting (Score:5, Informative)

    by Crypto Gnome ( 651401 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @10:33AM (#7844775) Homepage Journal
    Article was not much more than an advertisement for Valence and their new Battery Technology.

    (sigh)Lucky for us they didn't require us to pay for that crap.

    • Re:Love the quality reporting (Score:5, Insightful)

      by UrgleHoth ( 50415 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @11:00AM (#7844989) Homepage
      Not to mention that he brings up fuel cells in the article/ad:
      "Long-term fuel cells that convert hydrogen and oxygen to electricity -- don't ask me how -- are a promising alternative."
      Notice that he neglects to go into any basic details on fuel cells. I found this link [howstuffworks.com] by doing a google search on fuel cells [google.com].
      It would have taken him very little effort to come up with a one or two sentence description.
      Damn lazy journalist.

    • Because Valence claims to offer a safer alternative, I also spoke with Atakan Ozbek, director of energy research at Allied Business Intelligence, an independent technology research think tank, and to Sandrine Colson-Inam, general manager at Cell Expert North America, another independent technology research company. Ozbek and Colson-Inam confirmed what Lamoreux told me. Both also agree that Valence's phosphate technology, registered as Saphion Technology, is definitely safer.

      Seems like he went out and confir

  • Party Time (Score:5, Funny)

    by whiteranger99x ( 235024 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @10:35AM (#7844791) Journal
    It seems I have been quite lucky up to this point as I habitually leave my laptop in the trunk of my car - which is just over the gas tank (duh!) .

    You may want to give it a once over if you currently use lithium-ion batteries."

    Considering that I usually keep my laptop in my trunk, i can rest knowing that I can pull it out and replace it with some safer items like a gasoline canister, some fireworks, my blowtorch and some booze (it is new years eve, after all ;)
    • You'll want to add some firearms and ammunition to your party supplies.

      Guns, cars, and booze are an American holiday tradition, although I must admit that the Arabs and their AK-47 tributes are pretty impressive. Except don't a few dozen people die every time there's a big hoopla involving firing AKs into the air?

  • Three times and it's a trend? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by suman28 ( 558822 ) <suman28NO@SPAMhotmail.com> on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @10:36AM (#7844799)
    Considering the number of people that use these batteries and number of people that overcharge, I don't see a trend at all, just people that don't know how to use a device properly
    • overcharge?

      Li-ion batteries have controllers for a reason. When my laptop battery is charged exactly 0mAh is supposed to go in/out of the battery.

      In fact my laptop battery led will blink if I take the battery out while running on AC. This kinda tells me the engineers want to make sure I keep a battery in there.

      It does make me a bit weary to think I'm hurting my battery by leaving it in but really if I have to buy another battery in three years... so be it.

      Tom
    • Amen brother (or sister, as appropos)
      The advert even talks about the millions and millions of lithium-ion cells in the world.
      Three incidents is cause for worry? Good grief! How many people cut themselves on broken laptop screens last year? It's a tiger in a box, I tellya!

  • warning: story is just a big add (Score:5, Insightful)

    by extra the woos ( 601736 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @10:37AM (#7844806)
    so i go to read the story and...

    "Because Valence claims to offer a safer alternative"

    "Currently, Valence is shipping outboard devices -- N-Charge, weighing just under three pounds"

    "The next generation from Valence will be small enough to use as a direct replacement for your current laptop battery and will be available next year."

    come on slashdot, infoworld, this isn't news, this is a PRESS RELEASE

    • come on slashdot, infoworld, this isn't news, this is a PRESS RELEASE

      Well, it probably originated from a press release. But then the journalist actually went to the trouble of confirming the claims with independed experts, all of which seemed to agree that: yes there is a problem and yes Valence does seem to have a safer solution to it.

      That's not actually that shoddy journalism as such go these days. The reporter actually put the facts up front and went to some trouble to corroborate them, instead of re

    • this is what happens when you skip [slashdot.org] ads

  • Bleh (Score:4, Insightful)

    by seymansey ( 654465 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @10:37AM (#7844808)
    The article didnt give any particulary useful information, just stating the obvious. It was nothing more than a small plug for the new types of batteries that are due to be launched. And anyway, it's common sense not to leave batteries unattended in hot conditions, etc. Argh, but saying that, my NEC laptop's battery does get extremely hot during use, usually by conducted heat from the whole laptop. So did my old vaios' too.
    • It's a good thing the Toyota Hybred car does not use these batteries. A 100+ Lb battery pack would not be fun to have melt down in the trunk.

      FYI they use Ni-Metal Hydride batteries.

  • Not too unexpected (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Bender_ ( 179208 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @10:37AM (#7844809) Journal
    Well, any kind of high energy battary poses a kind of danger. The energy density of modern batteries approaches that of nuclear reactors. Any kind of physical damange (also heat) may release the stored energy in a quick fashion. Naturally it will be converted to enormous amounts of heat..

    • Power density (Score:3, Informative)

      by Latent Heat ( 558884 )
      Don't you mean power density (watts per cubic inch)? I would love to have a battery with the energy density of a nuclear reactor.
    • Maybe that's why there is that small fine print on alkaline batteries to not place them in a fire.
      • Here's an experiment for the adventerous. Do this in an area not close to a building of occupancy... Placing your lithium battery in a fire is impressive. Get the UV sunglasses out! If you take one apart, you will notice a large thick sheet of lithium metal. It will tarnish in seconds when exposed to air. It is soft, like butter. When heated, this metal will start to melt and look like a blob of molten solder. Heat it much more and it will ignite into the brightest light you have ever seen. The who
    • The energy density of modern batteries approaches that of nuclear reactors.

      Hello? E=Mc^2?

      This reminds me of helping some high school kids with a science project that involved a cooling system for an overclocked computer. They were going to use liquid cooled by a radiator intended for a 100 horsepower engine. They became concerned about the ability of the radiator to handle the heat. I laughed, but they remained insistent.
      • 1 horsepower = 746 watts
      • 2000 watts = maximum energy output of the electrical
  • and are a "tiget in a cage." His company is marketing a competitor to Lithium-Ion!
  • I mean, who leaves a laptop in the trunk?
    • Give the guy a break - he was using Windoze on his laptop, which as we all know is not very secure, that's why he put it in the trunk. If he was running Linux he could have left it on the front seat with the doors wide open....

  • A Trend? Moron... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by the_mad_poster ( 640772 ) <shattoc@adelphia.com> on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @10:41AM (#7844828) Homepage Journal

    But when I read three stories, all in reputable news outlets, well, that's a trend.

    Okay, chicken little. Whatever you say. Three stories in reputable news outlets is a trend. Let's see. If .05% of the 290M+ population of the U.S. owns a laptop, that means what, 2.06 x 10^-6 % of all the notebook owners in the U.S. experienced that in the past several months (someone might want to check my math.. it's really early)? That's a trend? If that's the case, aren't you far more likely to win the lottery several times than have your laptop battery explode?

    Imbecile. There's an enormous difference between something being a possibility and being even remotely likely. Sounds like those idiotic news reports networks show to get stupid people to watch ("WILL YELLOW STICKY NOTES KILL YOU? FIND OUT HOW YOU CAN PROTECT YOU AND YOUR FAMILY AT SIX!!!!")

  • They're not exploding! (Score:5, Informative)

    by Megane ( 129182 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @10:41AM (#7844829)
    They're "venting with flame" [buchmann.ca]. (Kudos for the link to the site [buchmann.ca] go to Steve Cowan [slashdot.org])

  • shark attack! (Score:5, Informative)

    by twitter ( 104583 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @10:42AM (#7844832) Homepage Journal
    reality check has claims:

    when I read three stories, all in reputable news outlets, well, that's a trend.

    This reminds me of the shark attack reputable news outlets suffered a few years ago. Nothing much was happening, so they covered the ongoing tragedy of swimmers who are attacked by sharks. Yes, this may happen but I'm no more worried about my cell phone or laptop exploding than I am about being eaten by a shark.

    • I agree about the shark attack reporting. But I only go in the ocean once every few years. I keep a LiIon battery in my front pocket for most of my waking hours. Anything that MIGHT be a problem is worth hearing about when the possible outcome is getting my nuts burned off.

      -B

    • Funny how certain stories will catch fire (ahem) every once in a while. If only sharks were to catch brain tumors after having used cell phones habitually, then we'd have a "trend" on our hands. Whoo-boy.

      And the trend would be "People develop irrational fears over stuff they don't understand, and once they're in the grip of fear they'll perpetuate it instead of even trying to understand..." Welcome to my Southern Baptist relations' world view.

      Incidentally, bull sharks do tend to be involved in more atta

  • Moore's law of batteries (Score:2, Insightful)

    by shuz ( 706678 )
    Of course Batteries have not doubled in capacity every year, but that doesn't mean that thier growth and development is coming to an end. At the end of this article the author claims that in 5 years we will not longer be able to improve on batteries. Though we may not be able to improve capacity or discharge, which I still feel is underestimating our ingeniouity, we will be able to further improve on batteries by finding new sources, find new ways of recycling batteries, or making batteries last longer(in l
  • More worried about losing his car than his laptop exploding and taking his manhood... sheesh.

  • Nice Editing (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Transcendent ( 204992 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @10:43AM (#7844841)
    "When you heat this material up, it [can] reach an onset temperature that begins to self-heat and progresses into fire and explosion."

    You really can't go replacing important words like that. Who knows if the word "can" was to replace something like "has the small possibility to" or "can under extreme and rare conditions"...

    Filling in the blank with the word "can" has the possibility of throwing the perspective out of proportion. Even later in the article it states that "explosions and fire happen 'rarely'".

    And what really got me...

    Long-term fuel cells that convert hydrogen and oxygen to electricity -- don't ask me how -- are a promising alternative.

    So replace lithium ion batteries with a HIGHLY combustable mixture... good alternative...

  • Many laptops already get hot... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by 192939495969798999 ( 58312 ) <info AT devinmoore DOT com> on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @10:44AM (#7844850) Homepage Journal
    This should come as no surprise to anyone that's ever used a laptop that got "hot". The first time I put a "hot" laptop on my lap, I freaked out at how hot it actually was. I can't believe that more laptops don't just melt from their own heat anyways, much less the battery exploding, catching fire, or whatever's "really" happening here.

  • PowerBook 5300 (Score:2, Informative)

    by sonicsft ( 195337 )
    Wasn't this the cause of all the PowerBook 5300's catching fire and exploding back in '95 when they came out? Or perhaps that was just a charging issue.... I must agree though that article was very clever in its promotion of the Valance Saphion technology.....Bringing in quotes but no actual numbers(probability) of current batteries actually exploding... I know my iBook battery sure gets toasty, heck the whole laptop and charging unit warm up to well over 100F. But I've never heard of a iBook battery(Li
    • Wasn't this the cause of all the PowerBook 5300's catching fire and exploding back in '95 when they came out?

      Yep.

      ? Or perhaps that was just a charging issue....

      Both, actually. Apple offered a replacement program for all powerbook users - and they exchanged their LiIons to the good old NiMH's, obvious sign that the batteries were also to blame. However, LiIons don't explode just because they are a ticking bomb, they explode only due to overheating; Apple made design mistakes that led to overheating.
      • From this article [elibrary.com]:

        Macworld : More PowerBook 5300 woes: battery, power, and circuitry flaws. (Product Support) : Lu, Cary

        More than any previous PowerBooks, Apple's most recent high-end model has been plagued with a host of troubles. First, Apple replaced the lithium-ion (LiIon) batteries it had begun to ship with 5300-series PowerBooks (see News, December 1995) because two of the Sony-made batteries had caught fire. Now , ironically , Sony's LiIon battery-producing plant in Koriyama , Japan , has itself

  • AN/PRC-77 - Exploding for 30 years (Score:5, Interesting)

    by HighOrbit ( 631451 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @10:46AM (#7844869)
    If you you were in the U.S. Army sometime before 1990, you probably know what that means. These were the standard field radios before the new SINCGARS encrypted/frequency-hopping radios came into use. The old "prick 77" radios that we carried around on our backs used a lithium battery. The radio had a vent on the battery compartment to let out explosive gases (and water if you were dumb enough to get your radio wet). If the vent became blocked the battery could explode! Ouch! Never happened to me personally, but it was legendary among RATELOs.
    • Automotive batteries can vent explosive gases too.

      That's why the experts have you make a "jumper cable circuit" by attaching the last ground connection away from the battery. In theory, the spark could ignite gases venting from the battery, resulting in an explosion.

      I've never experienced such an explosion.
    • The original model didn't have a vent. Explosive gases would accumulate until a spark caused an explosion. They added the vent after a number of people were seriously injured.

  • Jogger died via exploding MP3 player's battery (Score:5, Funny)

    by ljavelin ( 41345 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @10:47AM (#7844879)
    I guess I like empirical evidence. There are a lot of lithium ion batteries out there - I own a number of devices with them. I never had a problem, and no one I know has had a problem.

    But I don't watch a lot of TV news... maybe I've missed these stories:
    • "Family of seven burns to death in car while travelling to church - laptop battery to blame"
    • "Chatty woman in restaurant decapitated by exploding cell phone battery".
    • "Saddam caught - U.S. Soldiers effectively use iPods to force former Iraqi leader from his bunker"

    • Hmm. Da boyfriend gave me an MP3 player for Christmas. Maybe he's trying to get rid of me...

      All jokes aside, I have never had problems with the batteries for my devices either. I don't know anyone who has ever had a problem. I have heard of people having problems, and the reason they have problems is that they buy "non-approved" batteries from "dodgy third world countries."

  • RTFM! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Trurl's Machine ( 651488 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @11:03AM (#7845010) Journal
    I habitually leave my laptop in the trunk of my car - which is just over the gas tank (duh!) .

    Sir, I don't know the make of your laptop, but I'm pretty sure that if you'll read the user's manual that came with it, you'll find a passage like "do not leave it in locations where the temperature can become unpredictable or extreme - like a car trunk". Such a passage is in mine. I'd say that your horror story boils down do "if you habitually neglect the recommendations of your user's manual, bad things can happen".
    • A consumer product which is ruined by leaving it in a trunk is one thing. A product which explodes is another.

      If one leaves lipstick in the trunk of a car it will be ruined - but it usally doesn't result in a fire.
    • "if you habitually neglect the recommendations of your user's manual, bad things can happen".
      It's just a matter of time before Micro$oft uses this in Product Activation.
      "Register within 30 days or your computer will explode!"

  • OEM Batteries (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Detritus ( 11846 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @11:05AM (#7845023) Homepage
    One way to avoid problems is to only buy batteries that have been tested and approved by the device's manufacturer. Many of the reported problems with catastrophic battery failure can be traced back to no-name or counterfeit batteries that are missing crucial protective circuits and features.
  • the article is a blatant advertisement. nice one though.

    When is Slashdot going to start allowing us to mod entire stories down ??

  • Here's a good example (Score:2, Informative)

    by coulbc ( 149394 )
    defibrillator [voltaicpower.com]

  • New ratings for laptops (Score:3, Funny)

    by thewiz ( 24994 ) * on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @11:35AM (#7845267)
    I often read about how much "Bang-for-the-Buck" that you get from CPUs, Video cards, etc. I think that this might lead to a new system for rating laptops!
  • Not that I want to take a risk of my laptop blowing up, but a replacement battery for a laptop like my Thinkpad is : [ibm.com]

    That's a lot to pay every 2 years to prevent a fire no?

    I'll most likely still do it, but that hurts. Now when do fuel cell batteries come and save my day? I wouldn't mind popping one of those wonders in this clunky power eating thinkpad.

    PS: I need a G4 powerbook! That would be sweet ;-)
  • Jeez, this guy writes like someone in Ann Coulter's Baby Gestapo or something.

  • Warnings from Sony... (Score:3, Informative)

    by Bagels ( 676159 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @12:48PM (#7845941)
    Upon visiting Sony's support site recently, they had an alert [sony.com] out for just this sort of problem - but they claimed that it would only happen with third-party batteries, not the much more expensive Sony certified batteries. FUD, or is there a real difference between the two types that makes the third-party batteries more dangerous?
    • Well... the infamous burning PowerBook LiIon batteries were made by Sony, so make of it what you will...

    • there are some risks (Score:3, Interesting)

      by rebelcool ( 247749 )
      some cheap third party batteries leave out short circuit prevention circuitry. If you short one of these batteries out and it doesnt have that circuitry, it will rapidly overheat and likely blow.

      There could be other risks involved with different chemical formulas as well. Recall the blown capacitor debacle a year ago or so where the one cheap taiwanese company left out the ingredients to make the electrolyte in capacitors not create hydrogen gas. Gas build-ups blew out capacitors on many devices and mot

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