They Stormed the Capitol. Their Apps Tracked Them (nytimes.com) 273
In 2019 two New York Times opinion writers obtained cellphone app data "containing the precise locations of more than 12 million individual smartphones for several months in 2016 and 2017." (It's data that they say is "supposed to be anonymous, but it isn't. We found celebrities, Pentagon officials and average Americans.")
Now they've obtained a remarkable new trove of data, "this time following the smartphones of thousands of Trump supporters, rioters and passers-by in Washington, D.C., on January 6, as Donald Trump's political rally turned into a violent insurrection."
And here the stakes for a privacy violation were even higher: [The data set] shows how Trump supporters traveled from South Carolina, Florida, Ohio and Kentucky to the nation's capital, with pings tracing neatly along major highways, in the days before the attack. Stops at gas stations, restaurants and motels dot the route like bread crumbs, each offering corroborating details. In many cases, these trails lead from the Capitol right back to their homes... Unlike the data we reviewed in 2019, this new data included a remarkable piece of information: a unique ID for each user that is tied to a smartphone. This made it even easier to find people, since the supposedly anonymous ID could be matched with other databases containing the same ID, allowing us to add real names, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses and other information about smartphone owners in seconds.
The IDs, called mobile advertising identifiers, allow companies to track people across the internet and on apps. They are supposed to be anonymous, and smartphone owners can reset them or disable them entirely. Our findings show the promise of anonymity is a farce. Several companies offer tools to allow anyone with data to match the IDs with other databases. We were quickly able to match more than 2,000 supposedly anonymous devices in the data set with email addresses, birthdays, ethnicities, ages and more...
Smartphone users will never know if they are included in the data or whether their precise movements were sold. There are no laws forcing companies to disclose what the data is used for or for how long. There are no legal requirements to ever delete the data. Even if anyone could figure out where records of their locations were sold, in most states, you can't request that the data be deleted. Their movements could be bought and sold to innumerable parties for years. And the threat that those movements could be tied back to their identity will never go away.
If the January 6 rioters didn't know before, they surely know now the cost of leaving a digital footprint...
The article argues that de-anonymizing the data "gets easier by the day," warning this latest data set demonstrates "the looming threat to our liberties posed by a surveillance economy that monetizes the movements of the righteous and the wicked alike."
But it also warns that "The location-tracking industry exists because those in power allow it to exist... The dark truth is that, despite genuine concern from those paying attention, there's little appetite to meaningfully dismantle this advertising infrastructure that undergirds unchecked corporate data collection.
"This collection will only grow more sophisticated."
Now they've obtained a remarkable new trove of data, "this time following the smartphones of thousands of Trump supporters, rioters and passers-by in Washington, D.C., on January 6, as Donald Trump's political rally turned into a violent insurrection."
And here the stakes for a privacy violation were even higher: [The data set] shows how Trump supporters traveled from South Carolina, Florida, Ohio and Kentucky to the nation's capital, with pings tracing neatly along major highways, in the days before the attack. Stops at gas stations, restaurants and motels dot the route like bread crumbs, each offering corroborating details. In many cases, these trails lead from the Capitol right back to their homes... Unlike the data we reviewed in 2019, this new data included a remarkable piece of information: a unique ID for each user that is tied to a smartphone. This made it even easier to find people, since the supposedly anonymous ID could be matched with other databases containing the same ID, allowing us to add real names, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses and other information about smartphone owners in seconds.
The IDs, called mobile advertising identifiers, allow companies to track people across the internet and on apps. They are supposed to be anonymous, and smartphone owners can reset them or disable them entirely. Our findings show the promise of anonymity is a farce. Several companies offer tools to allow anyone with data to match the IDs with other databases. We were quickly able to match more than 2,000 supposedly anonymous devices in the data set with email addresses, birthdays, ethnicities, ages and more...
Smartphone users will never know if they are included in the data or whether their precise movements were sold. There are no laws forcing companies to disclose what the data is used for or for how long. There are no legal requirements to ever delete the data. Even if anyone could figure out where records of their locations were sold, in most states, you can't request that the data be deleted. Their movements could be bought and sold to innumerable parties for years. And the threat that those movements could be tied back to their identity will never go away.
If the January 6 rioters didn't know before, they surely know now the cost of leaving a digital footprint...
The article argues that de-anonymizing the data "gets easier by the day," warning this latest data set demonstrates "the looming threat to our liberties posed by a surveillance economy that monetizes the movements of the righteous and the wicked alike."
But it also warns that "The location-tracking industry exists because those in power allow it to exist... The dark truth is that, despite genuine concern from those paying attention, there's little appetite to meaningfully dismantle this advertising infrastructure that undergirds unchecked corporate data collection.
"This collection will only grow more sophisticated."
This has not amounted to much as of yet (Score:2)
Despite the huge crowds and the disaster that took place at the Capitol a month ago less than 200 people have been charged.
Re:This has not amounted to much as of yet (Score:4, Interesting)
The GOP is holding up Biden's AG pick (Score:5, Insightful)
It worries me, because this is very much reminiscent of the Beer Hall Putsch. We know people went there specifically to murder members of our government for political reasons. It's painfully obvious that the administration aided them by limited the police and National Guard presence, and we're just kinda letting it slide.
That's going to embolden these people. How do I know? Because they did this same thing at State Capitals and got away with it then. I don't normally find punishment an effective deterrent with crime, but I think that only applies to petty and random crime. This wasn't petty or random. This was well planned, well financed and well organized.
The thing that scares me most is I know for a fact there are people on this forum who look at Jan 6th and think it was a good thing. These are people doing pretty Ok. They don't have the excuse of "economic anxiety". And they've given up on Democracy and want to install a dictator. Often to protect them from other perceived dictators. I don't know what to do about that.
It wouldn't have happened at all (Score:5, Informative)
Look beyond the event itself and into everything leading up to it.
Re:The GOP is holding up Biden's AG pick (Score:5, Insightful)
It *was* organized. There was lots of money and PR put into it. But it was organized by idiots, whose view of reality came out of a TV screen. Fortunately.
You're correct in that it was VERY poorly organized.
The next one will be better organzied (Score:4, Interesting)
5D chess (Score:4)
rsilvergun's sentiment is on point. Not in the right way.
The event, how it happened, who was involved.
How was it set up? Riots in DC don't lead to random people storming the Congress. This wasn't even a Riot, this was 200 people and no form of planned security. No show of might.
Then the media coverage, the angle, the keywords, the exaggerations. Versus the real concerns.
rsilvergun even adds more words related to how the US class system works, and how it relates to the court system.
But sfcat is even more right: This isn't a coup, this is just some random riot, except it so happens that they also got to walk into the Congress and leave. Any exaggeration of the events makes it laughable. Yet any retelling of the events without exaggeration should send shivers down peoples spines.
It is NOT in line with Beer Hall Putsch, and Mussolini and the "me ne frego". Somebody more knowledgeable with history will most likely also name similar events in modern times. It hasn't involved a PMC storming and taking over the government.
But it also follows a trend in US politics where the state is unwilling to do its job, or is engaging in political witch hunts. Bluntly: Its a sign that the state apparatus is attached to money, ideals and power, and it doesn't work to strengthen the status legitimacy as a Rule of Law.
Its not exactly a scary trend, its just been a passive tradition since the Founding Fathers.
As a outsider I see similar trends for my country as well(unwillingness to uphold the Law), but with the USA having 300+ million citizens you get the edge cases more often, just as a matter of statistics.
They were there to force Donald Trump (Score:4, Insightful)
The fact that it was done by half assed amateurs is what makes it like the Beer Hall Putsch. It starts as just a bunch of thugs that get away with it. Much more professional / skilled people watch this and see that they too can now take a shot and ending our Democracy and do it with impunity. They will try again because they've got nothing to lose by trying.
This kind of "it can't happen here" (or in your case "there") is what creates dictatorships. We all need to be taking this way the fuck more seriously. Trust me, you will not like a country with America's military power being run as a dictatorship. If you think we're imperialistic now just wait and see.
Re:They were there to force Donald Trump (Score:5, Insightful)
the evidence for fraud was enormous
So enormous that in 60+ court cases (most of them tried in front of judges appointed by Republicans BTW) they were not able to demonstrate a single state where Rump would have won. Not one. Perhaps that's partly accountable to the utter incompetents in charge of filing the cases, but in over 60 cases there should have been at least one lawyer who knew their head from their ass. So where IS this phantasmagorical evidence? We keep hearing about it, but there doesn't seem to be a single location where you can actually review it. Why keep it so secret?
Mebbe DJT supporters. Mebbe false flag. Mebbe just a bunch of nutters trying to get in out of the cold.
Maybe? What frelling "mebbe"? We know who they were and who they were trying to force the congress to select. When you "try to get out of the cold" do you first erect a gallows and then smash your way into a building, carrying flex cuffs and shouting that you're going to hang people?
Rushed the vote? They were on the very same schedule that they have followed every single presidential election of my entire lifetime and for many, many years previous.
Re:The GOP is holding up Biden's AG pick (Score:5, Informative)
It was sufficiently organized that a bunch of people from all around the U.S. took a multi-day trip and managed to show up in the same place at the same time carrying similarly themed signs, flags, and banners, heard a disorganized speech and then all went to the same other location and busted up the place.
It was not sufficiently organized or manned to actually overthrow the government.
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That would involve guns or so I've heard. ;-)
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Generally yes, but not necessarily. Of course it could be along the lines of "OK, where are the guns?"..."I thought YOU were bringing the guns!"
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Yes. And we already know that the GOP is going to stonewall, and let Trump off. We should be proceeding with criminal charges, and not putting much effort into impeachment, as that's a doomed cause. I feel the evidence is clear to anyone who watches the videos, but that won't affect the results. Nail Trump with a few felonies, though, and he won't continue to be effective.
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That's likely related to the fact that there were only a total of 200-300 people who entered the capitol building that day and they can't actually prove trespassing for all of them, because only a few bypassed a barrier or ignored the capitol police. Many just walked in after it was already open.
The other 30K remained outside, mostly nowhere near the capitol (Trump didn't even finish speaking miles away until 20 minutes after the Capitol was breached), but you don't hear much about them for some reason.
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There certainly could've been more people. Even at the high end, that's well under 1/30th of the folks attending the rally.
The capitol isn't "a restricted government facility". While there are areas which require an appointment (like offices and the gallery), it's generally open to the public.
Re:This has not amounted to much as of yet (Score:5, Insightful)
Dropped due to lack of evidence. Fortunately in this case these idiots videoed and live-streamed themselves.
They thought they were documenting a revolution, the Great Awakening. In fact they were adding years to their sentences.
Re:This has not amounted to much as of yet (Score:4, Insightful)
No, charges dropped because the local prosecutors were sympathetic to the 2017 rioters. In the alternative, the 2017 rioters were more organized and had a clearer plan for insurrection, and so they were more worthy of being prosecuted.
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I watched a woman bleed out draped in the flag bearing the name of a reality TV star.
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I watched a woman bleed out draped in the flag bearing the name of a reality TV star.
A reality TV star who probably still doesn't know her name or even care, btw.
Re:This has not amounted to much as of yet (Score:5, Insightful)
It's shocking just how like a cult it became. Even when the prophet abandoned them they couldn't stop loving him, waiting for his return.
I used to think such things were unbelievable and silly when they happened on TV shows, but it's happening right in front of us.
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There is deep truth in the saying that the only unlimited thing in the universe is human stupidity.
Re: This has not amounted to much as of yet (Score:5, Insightful)
Capitol police shot her in the neck. She was given multiple warnings. As for threat posed, I'm sure having a fellow officer beaten to death with a fire extinguisher affected other officers' perception of the threat level. That and the chants to find and kill elected officials and those that protected them.
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Did the shooting officer know about the injury/death of the other officer? If not, it doesn't get to factor into perception of threat level.
It has been a month since a capitol police officer shot and killed an unarmed female protester. Has there been a through thorough ? Is that officer still part of the force or have they been fired? Do we know their name? Do they have any record of disciplinary actions?
Again... so many double standards.
Imagine though, if she was black, then there'd be more protesting/riot
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Were you using those excuses for cops last summer, too, or was BLM totally vindicated in your eyes?
Re:This has not amounted to much as of yet (Score:5, Interesting)
How about this? Lets not confuse protestors, looters, and rioters. I know Trump loved to mix up those terms and immigrants, rapists, murders, and criminals, but we don't need to be such a single brained nitwit. We know better.
As for the looters, and rioters in both camps? YES, throw the book at them accordingly. But lets get this straight, storming the US capitol is on a different level than breaking/torching businesses or even police stations. Just like shooting someone is different than hitting them with a bat.
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What about creating a zone that is free from governance of the existing state?
They didn't actually do that, though. Sure, they put up some signs and barricades. Drove the cops out of one of their substations. And had a Wikipedia article written about it all which tells you everything you need to know about the AZs with one telling term: self-declared.
None of these AZs were ever autonomous and they most certainly were never free from governance of the existing state.
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Those who simply approached the Capitol and waved their signs and shouted slogans did not commit a crime. OTOH, if any of then chose to act as a distraction for police while someone else broke in, they did commit a crime, just as surely as someone who distracts a bank guard to give accomplices a better chance of robbing the bank, or who acts as a getaway driver.
Those might be harder to track down and it will be harder to prove beyond reasonable doubt.
Right now, we're still busy with the ones who obligingly
Derp (Score:2)
Most criminals know to leave their phone powered off while committing crimes. Or even turned on, at home.
If you really need a phone while doing crime, go buy a disposable one, or better yet, have some homeless guy go buy one for you.
None of these people thought (Score:5, Insightful)
We need to stop pretending these were petty criminals and realize that this was an attempted coup. That's why they didn't bother covering their tracks. You don't attempt a coup unless you think you're gonna win, and if you win you don't need to cover your tracks.
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Side point: it's confusing when you do that thing where the first part of your sentence is in the title and the rest is in the comment. It just looks like you're saying "they were committing a crime".
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Some of them were hiding their faces, and we know how much they hate wearing masks.
In any case, even in a revolution things like hanging Mike Pence would still be a crime.
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They wanted to make a statement not stage a coup.
Trying to forcing the Legislative to appoint someone as President who was not elected is staging a coup, not just a statement.
To be fair it is a statement (Score:2)
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Keep in mind, reforming section 230 is the moderate position. Trump and many in the GOP wanted to remove it entirely.
I kinda get the idea the guy carrying a bunch of zip ties around (exactly the sort sometimes used as handcuffs) wasn't just looking to knock over a couple podiums.
Re:Derp (Score:5, Insightful)
Most criminals know to leave their phone powered off while committing crimes. Or even turned on, at home.
Except these criminals were recorded by the media, cameras within the Capitol, and even posted videos of themselves trying to locate and kill elected officials.
As was said a bit above, not the sharpest knives in the drawer.
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If only they had covered their faces with something.
Like, some kind of mask?
Re:Derp (Score:5, Insightful)
Most criminals know to leave their phone powered off while committing crimes.
Not really. Consider them to be in the upper percentile if they just avoid taking selfies while committing a crime.
The problem with the people who stormed the capitol is that their status as a terrorist or revolutionary depends on who wins. Had they prevailed, the evidence of their exploits would have made them out to be heroes.
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I'd be curious what the overlap is between this group and the "the-covid-vaccine-is-Bill-Gates's-microchip-to-track-you" group. I'm sure some are paranoid about having the government track their location, yet totally happy constantly posting about their location and having cell records track... their location.
I wish I could find a way to make money or power things with cognitive dissonance.
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Of course, this shitty location data would never stand up in court. Cell phone location data is notoriously unreliable, especially when you're inside a building.
Hell, the "find my iPhone" feature on my iPad and iPhone often shows my location as being at the gas station 200 feet across the street from where I live when I'm looking for my devices. If that gas station gets robbed, does that make me a prime suspect? Of course not.
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Since the capitol has its own cell-"towers" and the walls nicely block the signal, this data is far better than usual.
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No need to wait on history, the livestreams and posts were being lauded on social media as it was happening.
Then, many of them ended up removing their own posts in the next day's hangover.... c-c-c-censorship!
Well duh! (Score:5, Insightful)
If you thought a for-profit corporation was going to willingly abide by any restrictions on how they could use the data they collected then I have a bridge to sell you. The restrictions were artificial so that they could be revoked in the future. If they really had no intention of protecting you then they wouldn't be collecting data in the first place.
NEVER TRUST A CORPORATION. They are not people, they a sociopathic composite entities would use literal human slavery when it's an option. Way too many people trust rely on corporate goodwill when it literally does not exist.
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In many cases they don't need data from the apps. People were posting photos of themselves and others doing crimes.
Parler even helpfully retained location metadata attached to photos and videos. All law enforcement had to do was download them from the website. There's an archive of it all on archive.org.
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The FBI definitely found that archive useful but this is about way more than just one app.
Enemy of the State (Score:2)
I remember discussing the plausibility of some of the tracking abilities outlined in this 90's movie.
That was then. Nowadays, if you've watched even a few true crime shows, you know to leave your cell phone where it might alibi you, not where you're headed to do a crime.
The odd thing with this bunch is many of them didn't believe what they were doing was a crime. Nowadays, if you've read any history at all, you realize that those on the wrong side of a revolution are frequently treated as criminals.
Re:Enemy of the State (Score:4, Interesting)
The odd thing with this bunch is many of them didn't believe what they were doing was a crime.
No, they understood that what they were doing would be perceived as a crime by the institutions they sought to overthrow they simply felt what they were doing was justified. When you speak to them, they may conflate law with intention but they knew the act itself violated the law.
those on the wrong side of a revolution are frequently treated as criminals.
Overthrowing the government is intrinsically illegal which means they literally are criminals to the government they seek to overthrow.
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Just following their leader. Who cares if a few laws get broken? You won't be held accountable, so long as you pwn the libs. If nothing else, you'll come out of it with a bunch of Likes and awesome selfies.
Well, turns out they got fucked by dear leader. Just like Pence and anyone else who's ever had the displeasure of working with him. A day later he was telling them "You don't represent our country." What, you wanted a pardon? Sorry, Lil Wayne and Kodak Black get pardons first. You don't have the funds to
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They thought they would win and Trump would hail them as heroes. They thought he would be there by their sides.
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Of course they did. Nobody openly commits and act of insurrection thinking they would fail. They took a risk on insurrection and now they must face the consequences of their actions.
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A decent percentage of them were relatively certain this was the Storm promised by the 17th letter of the alphabet.
If they had been right, they'd be hero revolutionaries: if they remain wrong, they're prison fodder... such is the gamble of insurrection.
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Likewise, at least some people who rob banks imagine themselves to be freedom fighters sticking it to the man.
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You can justify anything. "I wouldn't have knocked the old lady to the ground if she'd just let go of her purse."
Values, what's good and what's evil, are so ingrained in us they impart a need for even the most sociopathic to believe they're basicallly good.
It's easier on the subconscious, and thus the sleep cycle, to justify whatever it is we have to do.
They Won't Make This Mistake Again (Score:2)
Re:They Won't Make This Mistake Again (Score:5, Insightful)
Next time it will be harder to catch them.
You mean they'll be civilized and accept the results of an election rather than storming the nation's capitol and trying to kill elected officials while they're being recorded by the media, cameras in the Capitol and even themselves which they later post on social media for all to see?
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"This collection will only grow ..." (Score:2)
Privacy Advocates (Score:5, Insightful)
We've been screaming this for years and always get dismissed as paranoid or overreacting. Location tracking is just the tip of the iceberg.
How to stop private company tracking (Score:2, Insightful)
It's easy.
These companies are private so they can do what they want with their data.
If you don't want to be tracked just setup your own telecom industry, smart phone industry, app industry, and your own internet.
They're private and they have rights! Right, guys?
Mod me down again but I'm going to keep saying this: you can't pick and choose who you want to have various rights such as free speech, privacy, movement, commerce, and so on. Either we all get those rights or we're all doomed to have none of them
Tracking? Duh! (Score:2)
Surprise, surprise, surprise (Score:2)
The United States is the most watched, surveilled,
Attention Idiots (Score:4, Insightful)
They aren't tracking the right wing extremists.
They are tracking everyone.
AI's are being trained to spot people being out of their normal pattern.
Spotting people trying to avoid being tracked.
Doing things that flag them as potential problems.
People like Ted Kascynski worry them.
It took decades to find him.
Without the manifesto and his relatives.
Would they have ever found him ?
Smart people with access to tech can do more alone now, than at anytime before in history.
Are they saving tracking data to analysis it in the future ?
Yes, but how much ?
All you idiots in masks doing stupid shit, are known.
Names, addresses, friend, associates.
Things may change.
Purge, Gulag, firing squad. Not your choice.
Support the US Constitution !!!
Down with King George, Hitler, Stalin & Mao !!!!
They didn't think very much through, did they? (Score:3)
It would appear that none of them ever heard of something that's been talked about for many years now:
Stingray.
Show of hands, please. Who DOESN'T think there are Stingrays deployed, on a semi-permanent basis, in and around the Capitol complex?
Re:How do you think your apps work? (Score:5, Insightful)
"If you own a smartphone you must assume that you are tracked and listened to."
These were not the sharpest knives in the drawer.
Re:How do you think your apps work? (Score:5, Insightful)
I know how you feel, dumbass.
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This comes from the expectation that Internet services should be *free*. If the business model doesn't involve charging the users, then the user's privacy is being sold.
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If I'm in public I always assume I'm being observed and possibly recorded. Hello Ring.
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Sad news for you, If it runs Android it's a smartphone, also it's not really ever turned off. Get a faraday bag for that thing.
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That could actually be viable if you don't need it for work. Only take it out of the bag when you're at home or at the office. Not having your buzzer go off 24 hours a day actually sounds kind of nice. The biggest problem I see for some people would be lacking GPS directions, but I assume you can still buy an old-school Garmin if you absolutely need the computer lady telling you when to turn. Better yet, fuck Garmin and stop stunting your navigation skills and pull up a map. Who knows, you might even learn
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That data still sounds a little too useful to me. It can be determined with accuracy when you're coming and going. What I usually do is pull up Google Maps in advance, set the start point of the route as somewhere on a major highway that I know how to get to, and use a block number for the destination address when possible. Something like "1800 block Taylor Street" usually works.
Best thing of course would be to avoid Google, but that requires more investment.
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As soon as the battery is empty, it is really off. No three letter agency so far has been able to implant a perpetuum mobile into a cell phone.
He said the phone only runs a few minutes per day. I really doubt that means he charges it up to 3% once per day and then runs it until it dies. Someone who only uses their flip phone for a few minutes per day and turns it off the rest of the day almost certainly has battery power left in the phone the rest of the time. They could probably get away with one charge a week.
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Do you have a reason to believe that a phone with a stock OS in airplane mode can be tracked?
Unless your phone was sabotaged (rooted, custom firmware) without you noticing, I wouldn't believe so. Phone manufacturers have no interest in getting in trouble with the FAA and FCC for selling phones where the cellular radio is turned on while in airplane mode, nor angry customers because of battery drain due to covert GPS activity. You might want to go into the settings to ensure that location services (GPS/wifi)
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There is also the little problem that the power drain from running the RF part is very, very noticeable. No need to analyse software to find that one. If it happened, people would have noticed. It does not.
Re:I will NEVER own a smartphone (Score:5, Informative)
''I can't even trust that phone to not be doing something unwanted.''
It doesn't matter what OS a cellular phone uses. Cellulars make triangulation less than trivial, and all polling data is archived. RF triangulation for analogue signal takes somewhat more effort, but CDMA, TDMA, GSM, all the Gs encode RSI while polling hosts [that record all the data], it's designed in the the network.
The story is a little strange in that they obtained an old dataset and somehow are able to use it now? But there's no doubt the NSA has all the data real time and analysts with sufficient resources to connect all the dots.
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I read this story earlier and I'll add a note that they were able to link individual phones to actual users using the Mobile Advertising ID, so I'll remind people to toggle the Opt-Out on that and periodically reset it to a new random number.
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Re:I will NEVER own a smartphone (Score:5, Informative)
Use a land line. Let them try to track you with *that*.
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You should just use a VOIP line if you think you would be happy with a land line. Unless you spend hours a day on the phone you'll spend quite a bit less than $20 a month.
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I think this sometimes ... however I don't do anything I want to hide. I get investigated by the FBI/NBIB every 5-7 years regardless. I keep mine because they are so damn handy. You should have your own line of pocket faraday bags made overseas and sell them on Amazon. You could make some money!
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I think this sometimes ... however I don't do anything I want to hide.
I’m real sorry to hear this. Everybody should have something to hide, probably several things.
Anyone with a life that could withstand the scrutiny of the status-quo hasn’t really lived, imho. Most humans could never meet the standards they hold others to, and if you could meet their standards, you have to be pretty damn perfect.
You realize you get canceled now for voting wrong and not hating the right people, right? I know
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I think the moral of the story is don't live stream your felonies.
Re:Reminder, not insurrection (Score:5, Informative)
Definition of insurrection : an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government
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So, you agree that Antifa/BLM was also an insurrection.
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Give me a real definition and I'll tell you whether I agree or not. It probably is, and so, probably, were the Civil Rights marches. It could be called an insurrection against local governments if not against the US government.
AFAIKT, BLM is not an insurrection against the feds. I'm not certain. It clearly isn't something attempting to threaten the federal government, at most it attempts to threaten local governments, and usually only the local police. Not quite the same thing. Also, AFAIKT, often tho
The Civil Rights marches weren't (Score:3)
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Why the sudden change of subject? WHATABOUT WHATABOUT WHATABOUT!!!!
Antifa is a made-up bogeyman and BLM is an organization. Neither are "an insurrection". Funny how Trumpists are also illiterate, huh?
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The people marching in the streets with signs, no. They were legal protesters.
Some of the nuttier fringe, perhaps so but much more locally.
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Many of them had an objective which amounted to a coup (what else would you call getting the guy who lost the election into office rather then the winner?). The ultimate "hold my beer" moment. They hadn't thought it out enough to have a coherent plan.
But we don't let someone off the hook if they spontaneously decide to hold up the liquor store just because they hadn't properly thought it through.
We as a people also tend not to have much sympathy when the "hold my beer" guy jumps into a bear exhibit at the z
They didn't have the military on their side (Score:3)
The next Trump might not make those mistakes. But regardless Trump did. So he had his followers but they're useless without the military. That doesn't change what he tried to do, it just means he was bad at it.
Like I've said before: If you come at me with a vegetable peeler instead of a butchers knife I might laugh at you, but I still call the
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What's it like being the only sane person in the crazy house?
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Let's see these videos.
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Quarter, the turnout for the 2016 election was 54%.
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The headline could have been worse. "Faceplant at insurrection with this One Weird Trick.... Secret Service HATES him!"
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Yes, "they" being interns that learn how to write clickbait headlines, not how to be actual journalists. Garbage "journalism" for clowns.
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sadly, probably not a differentiating factor. More interesting is the unusually high representation of ex-military, police and religious...irrational, incapable of critical thought and authoritarian.
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The BLM people did not try to murder a vice president while he was assisting in a change of government.
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I know that eventually they will say that black is white and all get killed at zebra crossing