Tech-Unfriendly Cafes Say No Kindles Allowed 375
theodp writes "At the risk of pulling-a-Groupon, I have a dream that one day my children will not be judged by their e-readers, but by the content of their character. The NY Times' Virginia Heffernan complains that many indie New York City cafes now heavily restrict, or ban outright, the use of Kindles, Nooks and iPads. Evidently, she says, too many coffee shops have had their ambience wrecked when itinerant word processors with laptops turn the tables into office space. Full-dress computers are one thing, says Heffernan, but banning devices the size of books is going too far, and it's anathema to the character and history of cafes. By contrast, Starbucks offers free, one-click, unlimited wireless service to their patrons, making it in Heffernan's eyes 'a flawed franchise that is squarely in the public good.'"
It's a free country (Score:4, Informative)
Those cafes are quite free to ban eReaders, iPads and the like. Whether it will actually be enforced is another question entirely. Even if the management comes down hard, there is nothing stopping their customers going elsewhere.
No one's saying it isn't (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not the point.
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Yeah, it is.
- In a free country the Citizen owning the shop can ban any damn thing he wants to ban, just as I can invite your into my home, but ban you from wearing shoes.
Re:No one's saying it isn't (Score:4, Insightful)
It's a cop-out and intellectual laziness to just say the cafe/shop owners can do whatever they want--we already know that. The discussion of weighing the benefits versus the disadvantages is nonetheless an interesting one. And, perhaps such discussions will give cafe owners food for thought in making their business decisions.
Re:No one's saying it isn't (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:No one's saying it isn't (Score:4, Interesting)
But - I wouldn't DREAM of sitting in the diner during their lunch rush hour, taking up space, while I read another chapter or six of Asimov's Foundation.
Except you can still do that if you have a paper book. This has nothing to do with table space, your rant is completely offtopic.
Re:No one's saying it isn't (Score:4, Insightful)
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My wife works as an architect and we visited a cafe which she had worked on. We met the owner and she complemented him on his uncomfortable seats. Apparently he went through several iterations before he got the formula right. Too comfortable and people say to chat and stop buying. Not comfortable enough and people don't stay long enough to buy enough food. He doesn't want people sitting for hours with a laptop. The space they are using should be earning good money.
Maybe people reading history should be allowed ... (Score:3)
Our forebears, men like John Quincy Adams, worked tirelessly until slavery was extinguished. - Michelle Bachmann
Maybe people reading history textbooks should get a pass and be allowed to read. There seems to be some need. I get the attempt at humor and any and all politicians are fair game. But perhaps Bachmann did something few expected and actually made an accurate historical reference.
FYI. I am pro historical literacy not pro Bachmann.
"Adams was elected a U.S. Representative from Massachusetts after leaving office, the only president ever to do so, serving for the last 17 years of his life with far greater s
Re:No one's saying it isn't (Score:5, Insightful)
What about disabled people with their large clumsy wheelchairs? Or non-white people? Or Women? What about Muslims? What they have one down the street?
I know the Nazis burned the books, so modern fascists burn Kindles?
Still feel like a free country?
That's a stupid argument. For one, disabled people in wheelchars, non-blacks, woment, Muslims, etc, have rights that are enforced under law. Nobody has the right to read a kindle or use a laptop or cell phone wherever they want to.
Second, the coffee shop, being privately owned is perfectly within its right to say if you don't wear shoes or shirt we will not serve you. If you smoke, we will not serve you and yes, if you use a kindle, we will not serve you.
The said coffee shops in the articles are doing this for very good business reasons. They have found that when people camp out at a table or booth for hours working on their laptop or reading a kindle, they don't get much revenue. They way the potential for lost revenue by kindle customers getting upset and going elsewhere with the actual loss they were experiencing.
If you don't like it, you are free to frequent other coffee shops or even start your own that caters to kindle users. That's what it means to live in a free country.
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They have found that when people camp out at a table or booth for hours working on their laptop or reading a kindle, they don't get much revenue.
Exactly. This is why many coffee shops that start out with friendly living room furnishings - like low comfy sofas - end up with tall hard stools at a counter. I go to a lot of coffee shops where students sit for hours with their one drink. I think its rude, frankly - it's a business, not your house.
However, I often use a laptop in these places, and I don't think its unreasonable so long as I only stay for the time it takes to eat my food and drink. Of course, with more people imagining they are 'digital no
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However, I often use a laptop in these places, and I don't think its unreasonable so long as I only stay for the time it takes to eat my food and drink. Of course, with more people imagining they are 'digital nomads' or some such nonsense, there will be some who sit there all day.
Indeed. I can only imagine that just about every Slashdotter in his twenties can think of a place full of those "digital nomads." It's particularly obnoxious when one of them decides that downloading some torrents is a good idea.
:P) while drinking some decent coffee is a place on the west side of Cleveland called "Common Grounds." It's all bu
The place that I used to frequent, and now visit occasionally with friends to sit down and play some DotA (admittedly, the last time was to have fun with Firesheep
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The said coffee shops in the articles are doing this for very good business reasons. They have found that when people camp out at a table or booth for hours working on their laptop or reading a kindle, they don't get much revenue. They way the potential for lost revenue by kindle customers getting upset and going elsewhere with the actual loss they were experiencing.
If you don't like it, you are free to frequent other coffee shops or even start your own that caters to kindle users. That's what it means to live in a free country.
I support this as a customer too. It is annoying as hell when you buy a coffee and there are no seats... purely because 15 people have setup their mobile offices on all of the tables.
If you want to work (or read for an hour), go to your office or the library. There will be less distractions and you will work faster.
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Simple - apply a rule that if you haven't bought anything in the last hour (or whatever - you could even vary it by time of day) a new customer has priority for seating.
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They have found that when people camp out at a table or booth for hours working on their laptop or reading a kindle, they don't get much revenue.
And they get more revenue when people camp out for hours reading a paperback???
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How about banning people that aren't wearing your gang colors?
People with digital wristwatches?
People who smoke? (Actually that one actually affects other people, so it's not really in the same category.)
Of course, they aren't refusing service, they are telling customers what they can and can't do (outside of legal restrictions) in the cafe. Unfortunately what they are banning is one of the 3 things cafes are k
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In a free country, a business is public and you can't deny service to people unless you have very good reasons.
Actually, I think you'll find that is incorrect. As I understand it, a business in the US can decide who they can do business with / offer service to provided that they don't discriminate on the basis of specifically legislated criteria; e.g. race, religion, (dis-)ability, etc. Even then there are limits. For instance you won't be able to hire a car if you are blind, or get life insurance if you have AIDs.
Coffee shops are not legally or morally obliged to let you use Kindles, any more than they are oblig
Re:It's a free country (Score:5, Insightful)
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Absolutely.
I think this has more to do with economics than ambiance. People with multifunction devices are more likely to plant themselves to a seat than a customer with a paperback. I'm sure there are people with traditional books that spend all day at a cafe, but they are outnumbered by the people with the electronic devices. More new customers equate to more revenue.
I also think that as soon as more customers go to a competitor in sufficient numbers that generates empty seats, the cafe owner would reco
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I've walked out of Starbucks dozens of times since there are no seats to enjoy my coffee. I don't want to use my electronics, I'm trying to drink a cup of coffee. A couple of Starbucks near me are always occupied with long-term seat sitters and I won't visit them any more. I've come back two hours later and the same people are still in the seats.
Re:It's a free country (Score:4, Interesting)
Give the manager control of the hot spot. If he is running out seats, set the wifi to kick MAC addresses off after 15min and not allow them back on for 2hrs (earlier if he turns the enforcement off). You can defeat this by switching MAC addresses but the people who set up office during rush hours should get the message.
FIve or six people setting up office can ruin a Starbucks. They spread things all over the tables forcing you to ask them to clear off a spot for you to use. Then they make comments about not spilling anything on their precious work. Some of them are pretty rude about it. It completely ruins the experience by putting you in the spot of invading their office or you have to drink standing. I've learned which coffee shops have this problem and I'll walk farther to get to ones that are more coffee friendly. Of course that's not much fun in three feet of snow.
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Or cafe X will see an uptick in business as their tables turn quicker. Either way, it's the free market economy at its best.
(Side note: this only works because in a place like NYC, there is a lot of competition. If you lived in a small town with only one coffeeshop, then this would be a completely different deal. (I'm looking at you Time Warner Cable.))
Re:It's a free country (Score:5, Interesting)
Or cafe X will see an uptick in business as their tables turn quicker. Either way, it's the free market economy at its best.
(Side note: this only works because in a place like NYC, there is a lot of competition. If you lived in a small town with only one coffeeshop, then this would be a completely different deal. (I'm looking at you Time Warner Cable.))
But even in a small town, the store owner would be in their right to not allow kindles and other devices. A small town, probably has a smaller coffee shop, which probably has fewer seats that need to be turned over just as quickly as in NYC to be profitable. I've lived in a town of 30,000 that had a Panera's coffee shop. It was next to impossible to eat their during normal lunch hours because of their free wifi and all of the college kids sitting around on their laptops with a cup of coffee for hours on end. $2 for a cup of coffee for 3 or 4 hours of internet wasn't a bad deal for the kids, but it sure impacted business for the store.
Their solution? During the lunch hours 11:00 - 1:30, you could only use laptops in one relatively small section of the place. They even had free internet terminals at some of the tables if you wanted. It turns out that the same amount of people were using the internet, but instead of one per table or booth, they all shared the tables and booths in that area. In that way, the store could still serve it's paying customers.
The whole point of the above story is that it impacts even small towns.
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I hope they do walk down the street (Score:2)
Coffee shops used to be about going to meet people, sitting down with a good cup of coffee or tea. Now, if my local Starbucks is any example, its a computer room. You can't get a table in my local Starbucks a few hours after they open because they are all hogged by laptop wielding customers. It really ruins the idea behind what these places used to (granted Starbucks ain't all that great for many people). Instead of hearing people talking, that background sound which shows life of the establishment, al
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Who takes a laptop to a bar?
It's the one environment where you DON'T need access to porn.
Fine, I shall feed the troll (Score:3)
Oh, please. You can't equate skin color (something you can't control) to choosing to take an electronic device with you.
No one is forcing you to bring in electronic devices. You can leave it in the car or in your bag or at home. No one is forcing you to patronize their establishment either.
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So, I can read a book, but not a Kindle?
Kindle goes in book jacket cover, problem solved.
Re:It's a free country (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, you can read a book, but at MY cafe, only books that have been handwritten on velum are allowed... I don't allow any of them high-falootin' printing press -produced monstrosities. I demand my customers use the written word as God meant it to be used... produced by monks.
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Papyrus? If I used that for writing, what would I use for toilet paper???
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Who really cares though? I go to cafes to eat and drink, not play with my Nook or check my e-mail.
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Not to criticise you (I'm sure plenty of people think similarly) but it's sad that that's the way people view these sorts of places these days.
I visited the island Jersey a few years back, which has a sort of 60s-Britain-meets-modern-France vibe. I remember a cafe where there were school kids playing chess, and old guys playing cards, and people reading books, and a guy doing paperwork with a laptop. I'm sure they were only buying as many drinks as they wanted, but they all seemed pretty settled in. A lot o
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If their customer base is alienated by that, the establishment may encounter solvency issues. If they approve, they've got a selling point.
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They will ask you to leave, and if it escalates, I imagine they call the manager, who may in turn call whatever kind of security they have / the police if you continue to resist. Its not complicated, and probably not much different than if you made a scene.
This is much like if a restaurant wants to enforce a dress code; they are perfectly free to kick you out if you do not conform to it. I dont get why this is a story.
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yeah, when I was younger... I misunderstood that "no shoes, no shirts, no service" police
one day I sat down with no pants on... what the hell, they called the cops on me.
I boycott their milkshake
I know this is difficult... (Score:2, Redundant)
Re:I know this is difficult... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I know this is difficult... (Score:4, Insightful)
But, in the name of Freedom, we must force every business to adapt to every customer's wants, whether it is profitable for the business or not!
If you don't force Ford dealerships to sell new Chevys you must hate freedom.
Not conforming to every customer's wants is censorship!
</parody>
Starbucks advert? (Score:4, Insightful)
To summarise the article: indie cafes bad, but on the First of Some Month Starbucks will give you free internet for as long as you want. Not "a major chain of coffee houses" but STARBUCKS.
How much was this person being paid to plug a company's offerings?
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To summarise the article: indie cafes bad, but on the First of Some Month Starbucks will give you free internet for as long as you want. Not "a major chain of coffee houses" but STARBUCKS.
How much was this person being paid to plug a company's offerings?
I feel the opposite way. When an article obfuscatorily refers to "a major player in the [whatever] industry" I think it sounds weirder than when they just say which particular business they mean.
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To summarise the article: indie cafes bad, but on the First of Some Month Starbucks will give you free internet for as long as you want. Not "a major chain of coffee houses" but STARBUCKS.
How much was this person being paid to plug a company's offerings?
Let's just stop putting the name of ANY corporation in Slashdot comments. We can talk about a fruit distributor's smartphone offering and how it is now available on a CDMA network. Hell, we might as well go all the way and stop using names altogether... like how a large North American country's national law enforcement bureau is requesting telephone records of its citizens, and how the aforementioned country has proposed budgetary cuts to their space program, weather programs, nuclear energy research, and t
Do they ban books? (Score:5, Insightful)
As long as they ban books, magazines and other reading materials that's a good policy - I hate going to my local coffee shop for a quick drink and snack only to find that half of the tables are taken over by 3 person study groups who pushed 4 tiny tables together to make room for their books and papers, or rows of people on their laptops (some working, some just idling browsing the 'net, and that guy in the corner browsing porn).
But to ban a Kindle or Nook just because it's electronic seems like a stretch -- browsing is not a joy on either of those platforms, so it's not like someone is going to be spending hours answering his work email. Though he may spend hours reading an eBook, just like he would do with a paper book if he didn't have a Kindle.
[citation needed] (Score:4, Insightful)
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Were it not for allowing their scribbling hacks to inflate personal grudges and tiny-value-of-N anecdotes into "trends", the NYT would probably have to do something comparatively expensive, like actual investigative reporting, t
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They also tend to go out of business in droves, then blame it on the corporate shops and their homogenous atmosphere(s).
Quirky? How cute.... and essentially droll. I understand the need for turning tables, yet the thought of some over-caffienated jerk hovering over me as I try to finish a chapter is just a little too much. You remember Seinfeld's Soup Nazi? Welcome to NYC. Have a nice fucking day, and take your little Kindle with you.
Re:[citation needed] (Score:4, Insightful)
One of the things San Francisco is doing now is that, when developers want to put up big new office buildings, they have to include a certain amount of "public space" in their designs. I know a couple of buildings that do this, and the result is a really nice, large, open space in the lobby, surrounded by glass, with lots of tables and chairs and some plants, where anybody can go in and sit for free. So if the local coffee shop really wants me to buy my coffee and get the fuck out, then by all means... I'll take it up the road.
Ah, but that's just the thing. Most coffee shops don't just want you to buy your coffee and get the fuck out, because a coffee shop with no people in it seems cold and uninviting, and it makes you wonder whether there's something wrong with the coffee. The traditional coffee shop atmosphere is one where people sip, read, quietly talk, study, and maybe do a little work. So they need a certain number of people doing just that.
When I hear about coffee shops making up rules to kick those people out, though, I can only assume that it must be because times are flush. Lucky you -- enjoy it while you can. Cuz you opened a coffee shop in NYC, pal. Hipster trends come and go -- by definition -- and I guarantee you, your coffee won't taste as good as the next guy's in a couple years' time, no matter what you do. You might start wishing you still had some of those customers you alienated, back when it was still cool to pretend people didn't want Nooks and Kindles.
I wish there was a cafe... (Score:5, Funny)
where I could use my soldering iron and dremel. Also, the walls would be lined with component and fastener bins.
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No seriously - a combination cafe/hackerspace would be awesome.
Re:I wish there was a cafe... (Score:5, Interesting)
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And we shall call it Radio Snack.
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"Okay that will be one dielectric latte' ... would you like batteries with that? no... okay, can I have your ZIP code please?"
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Sadly, I don't think there are enough tinkerers around anymore to make such a store profitable. We are relatively few and far between, much too scattered to make such a place viable... people would have to travel too far to get there.
Integrated circuits were the death of the electronics tinkerer, and smart projects using Arduinos and other low-powered processors haven't brought them back in anywhere the same numbers, likely because of the perceived learning cliff of becoming a 'computer programmer'.
There is something nice about a tech-less cafe (Score:2, Insightful)
Imagine, people just maybe reading paper books, having good conversations with friends, being on dates, or just soaking up the smell of roasted coffee and the light perfume of the pleasant woman in the sweater next to you. No clickety-clack, no heads down and eyes glued to a screen, no thumbs frenetically moving over a tiny unearthly rectange, more people over 60 feeling at ease and not alienated, etc.
Nothing wrong with full-on hardcore technology style cafes, either. It's just a choice.
Indie = Pretentious now? (Score:5, Insightful)
I can understand people wanting to avoid the sound of spiders scratching behind earbuds, or bright flashing colours in the corner of one's eye but why ban silent, monochromatic book replacements? This sort of café sounds to me like a gathering place of pompous poseurs (possibly goateed) sat there with tattered - by their previous owners - copies of Milne spouting neo-luddite claptrap.
Here endeth the rant. If these places want to alienate paying customers then that's their right; it's just a shame there probably won't be another article on their inevitable going out of business. Of course, collecting all this sort [youtube.com] just makes it that much easier to avoid them, so I'm at best ambivalent about the whole thing.
P.S. I figure if the only source is a paywalled opinion piece then it shouldn't count as news...
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When has "indie" not connoted "pretentious"?
Turn off the wi-fi (Score:5, Insightful)
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Because if they don't offer it, the customers will go to Starbucks, where the 700% markup on a cup of coffee makes up for the lost business the seatwarmers bring in?
Their cafe, their choice... (Score:5, Interesting)
If it's made clear before I parted with money for a drink that something non-obvious is prohibited, then I've no problem at all - I can simply take my patronage elsewhere.
If it's only after I've bought a drink and sat down to read that I'm told, then I'm likely to be less impressed, but, at the end of the day, it's not really something I'm going to worry too much about - at worst, if I really do need to read something, I can walk out.
Since I tend to get a bottle of water, and maybe something to eat, I probably haven't lost much either, since I'll take them with me, but I could understand why someone who's not using a takeaway cup might be loathe to leave their (often expensive) coffee behind, but, I do try not to get riled over a few pounds if I can avoid it. Life is too short.
Look past the device... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd wager it's not the device... or the table space that a laptop takes up... It's way more physical than that...
It's about CHAIRS and WIFI.
No one wants to go sit in a coffee shop and when you get there, there are no seats because people have 'set up shop' and are there for the long haul. They want you to enjoy your coffee, and LEAVE. Same goes for WIFI. What once was a sales feature to get you INTO the store: Free WiFi, is now something that KEEPS you in the store, but doesn't make any more money for the shops. How many people drink cup after cup of coffee the entire 2-3 hours they're sitting there? nope. they got one $2 cup of coffee, and then tie up the seats and the wifi for hours. And their WiFi is probably over taxed because of it...
Books don't consume WiFi, and most people don't read a book for hours.
Re:Look past the device... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd wager it's not the device... or the table space that a laptop takes up... It's way more physical than that...
It's about CHAIRS and WIFI.
No one wants to go sit in a coffee shop and when you get there, there are no seats because people have 'set up shop' and are there for the long haul. They want you to enjoy your coffee, and LEAVE. Same goes for WIFI. What once was a sales feature to get you INTO the store: Free WiFi, is now something that KEEPS you in the store, but doesn't make any more money for the shops. How many people drink cup after cup of coffee the entire 2-3 hours they're sitting there? nope. they got one $2 cup of coffee, and then tie up the seats and the wifi for hours. And their WiFi is probably over taxed because of it...
Books don't consume WiFi, and most people don't read a book for hours.
Your entire argument assumes that the largest coffee chain in the US can't do simple math. *$ offers free, unlimited wifi for a reason. What do you think that reason is?
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Starbucks are generally much larger than an indie coffee shop, plus not offering free wifi would hurt their business a lot more than it would help.
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It's not that much of a problem until customers are being turned away because there's nowhere to sit. Maybe you can use the "simple math" to figure out how to cover expenses (with a little left over) when your tables are returning $2-3 per hour at peak times. Note too that they tend to be located in high-traffic locations where rents are high.
It's a bit like airline pricing. The airline may be better off selling you a cheap ticket for a seat that would otherwise be empty, but you're not going to get that fa
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Kindles don't "consume WiFi" either, unless you're using it to browse the web, in which case you really ought to get a more appropriate tool for the job.
Basically, Kindles are interchangeable with books and newspapers. If the cafe's okay with books, there's no reason to ban Kindles (or Nooks or any other dedicated e-reader).
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Only if they are stupid (Score:3)
You might notice that Starbucks, which is a wildly successful corporation, offers free WiFi and welcomes people to sit and play on the computer. Why is that? Well because the drinks and snacks are tempting to people. If they buy a drink and have nothing to do, they'll leave when their drink is done. Fine, and that result works for Starbucks, but it would be better if the bought MORE drinks. If they stay, there's a good chance they will do so.
Will they all do it? No, but then that is true of anyone who comes
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I imagine a coffee shop with timers on each chair. Put in a quarter to sit in a chair for 10 minutes. Two quarters for 15 minutes. Three for 22.5. Four for 33.75, etc. The more quarters you put in, the less you get out of it.
At the end of the time, the chair emits a soft ding and raises a flag. Put in more quarters for more time. Want to stay 30 minutes? No problem. Want to stay an hour? Reconsider your options.
could they name one cafe? (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's One That Apparently Unplugged (Score:2)
Iris Cafe (Facebook) [facebook.com]: First, the good news! Fall has brought everyone back to the neighborhood and the cafe is bustling with customers old and new! Sadly, this means we are no longer able to offer wifi/computer use at tables. We understand that means some of you will have to go elsewhere, but we hope you'll come by for a coffee or a meal when possible!
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Tabloid Fiction? (Score:3)
I bet you'd struggle to find more than half a dozen such places in all of New York STATE. Which, frankly, makes for an entirely non-event. I'm sure you can find just as many private clubs that don't let a certain gender or sexual orientation in at all...
Why is this bad? (Score:3)
So what? (Score:3, Funny)
Their business, their rules. And hardly anything new. Victoria's Secret loves it if I bring in my wife...not so much if I bring my video camera...
The best place for wifi in DC (Score:3)
[[WP:WEASEL]] {{citeneeded}} (Score:5, Insightful)
"Many indie New York City cafes now heavily restrict, or ban outright, the use of Kindles, Nooks and iPads."
That sentence should have been followed by the names of some cafes, and an interview with an owner. But no. So it's just blithering.
The Times is slipping.
Starbucks Doesn't Know Jack (Score:3, Funny)
These fools have somehow stumbled their way into ~$11 billion in annual revenue by letting people hang out and use computers. But, any day now, one of those Indies that knows more about running coffeehouses is going to blow them away. Caribou Coffee, with 451 stores, offers much better coffee than that unpopular junk sold in Starbucks' 11,000 locations.
It's really hard to know why anyone would think of emulating a business model as clearly as unsuccessful as Starbucks:
http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Starbucks_(SBUX) [wikinvest.com]
So take your Kindle and shove it where the sun don't shine, partner. We don't need your kind around here.
RTFA - it's bullshit (Score:3)
It's a non-issue, a bump in the road. These shops, what few there are, will eventually adjust their policies. Nothing to see here, move along.
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Embrace WIFI (Score:3)
I've YET to come across a coffee shop that embraces having WIFI at their establishment. It's like they just add it like decoration, and then whine and complain when there's a side-effect on how customers interact with the business. Here's some ideas:
That's just off the top of my head. Come on "indie" coffee shop owners, this is easy. Have your establishment embrace WIFI and the customers who want to use it! Please!
Re:I, for one... (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:I, for one... (Score:4, Funny)
Smoking? I understand - It's unpleasant and it stinks. People talking on the phone? I understand - it's annoying.
So you only agree with someone else's private establishment banning what you find annoying.
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You would be turning down Einstein, Edison, Bell, Oppenheimer, Hubble, Freud, Churchill, Roosevelt, Kennedy and, until recently, Obama. Hope that's OK with you.
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Since none of them have any IT skills, their resumes wouldn't have got them an interview, so yea its not a problem.
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No he wouldn't. Those guys didn't take "smoke breaks." They would've just smoked in your face.
In today's era, they'd probably never have started smoking.
Plus.. that's a helluva list. I think there's like three guys on there I'd actually want to work with. None of whom were heads of state or giants of industry...
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This is the kind of thinking that can only lead to more ridiculous bans that hurt us all. Didn't we have enough already? You know, while one slashdotter thinks it's cool to ban a popular fad that annoys him, the society might decide to ban his hobbies. I guess there won't be enough people to care if someone banned tinkering. What would you say?
Nice straw man.
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Maybe this would be better characterized as a "monsoon in a mug"?
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hypocrite: When I do it it is okay but when other do it, it is unnaceptable
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If you go to a fancy restaurant in the states, that is how they operate. They don't expect to get more than two seatings in during an evening, say one at 6PM and another at 8:30-9PM. You're also paying several hundred dollars for a quality of food and service that makes it worthwhile to tie up a table for so long. If you go for your $5.95 buffet at the Golden Food Trough, it's in their best interest to shuffle you through as quickly as possible.
Put in another way, if you're at a restaurant whose menu has