Microsoft Outlines Windows Phone 7 Kill Switch 258
nk497 writes "Microsoft has outlined how it might use the little publicized 'kill switch' in Windows Phone 7 handsets. 'We don't really talk about it publicly because the focus is on testing of apps to make sure they're okay, but in the rare event that we need to, we have the tools to take action,' said Todd Biggs, director of product management for Windows Phone Marketplace. According to Biggs, Microsoft's strict testing of apps when they are submitted for inclusion in Marketplace should minimize kill switch use, but he explained how the company could remove apps from the marketplace or phones, when devices check-in to the system. 'We could unpublish it from the catalog so that it was no longer available, but if it was very rogue then we could remove applications from handsets — we don't want things to go that far, but we could.'"
NSA Key (Score:2)
2.0?
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Mods: Poster is referring to "Netscape engineers are weenies!", found (typed backwards!) as the password to a vulnerable [slashdot.org] version of DVWSSR.DLL for Frontpage 98. Really. [nai.com]
Before people start in on MS..... (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_activates_android_kill_switch_zaps_useless_apps.php [readwriteweb.com]
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10010070-37.html [cnet.com]
Both Android and the iPhone have kill switches as well.
Google has actually used theirs.
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I believe the Apple iPhone kill switch isn't that comprehensive to begin with. Firstly, the "kill switch" was located in CoreLocation, so any app not using GPS would be ineffective. It was designed more to deny GPS services to rogue applications than anything as location data is considered extremely sensitive and private.
Of course, there's probably another more general kill switch around, but Apple seems reluctant to use it. They could easily prevent jailbreaking this way using the kill switch.
But it is a g
Re:Before people start in on MS..... (Score:5, Insightful)
Never let facts get in the way of a good Apple bashing, right?
http://www.razorianfly.com/2010/07/08/did-apple-just-use-the-ios-kill-switch/ [razorianfly.com]
Another Brilliant Microsoft Innovation! (Score:5, Insightful)
Brought to you by Apple.
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Apple usually puts emphasis on how the features are easy-to-use, not about how they're the first to do it.
As examples, they weren't the first ones to offer smartphones or MP3 players but they sure made these popular with the non-technical crowds by making these things much easier to use.
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Apple usually puts emphasis on how the features are easy-to-use, not about how they're the first to do it.
Not the first to do it at all, but they do claim they're the first to do it well, i.e. in a way that's easy to use or efficient, even when an easy-to-use and efficient implementation already exists on other platforms.
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Doesn't Windows XP also have WGA?
Besides, haven't you learned from patents yet? Anything old can be new again by adding "on the internet" or "on a cellphone" at the end.
I'm not as bothered as I should be (Score:5, Interesting)
Buying a mobile phone is already such an exercise in trust, I have a hard time worrying about a remote app kill switch.
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I don't understand why worrying is what this makes people do. There's nothing stopping someone from writing an app that appears useful, waits until June 2nd, 2011, then does the most malicious thing the phone's sandbox will allow it to do. At that point, if the phone becomes unusable for 20,000 people, or if it becomes a plague spreader, or if it starts making calls to Pakistani phone sex lines while you're asleep, but on the outside it still appears to be a friendly purple gorilla so people don't delete
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Look it, no one is going to care about Pakistani phone sex revolving around a woman's bare naked ankles. Hmmm...upon further reflection, maybe those kind of apps should be killed if they can find no better phone sex than that.
Re:I'm not as bothered as I should be (Score:5, Insightful)
The reason people dislike it, is that the normal way for personal computers to operate is that the owner of the device (who is also typically the user), is the "someone" that you mention. And a lot of us are still used to the normal way (I guess that's why I call it "normal" ;-). The evil here is not the killswitch; it's whose hand is on the switch.
If the phone were larger and had a full size keyboard and monitor, a lot of people would say that worrying is the right thing to do. But since we call it a "phone" (or a "game console" or an "ebook reader") the rules are magically different even though there's nothing about how the device is used, which should change who its master is.
That said, while "a lot" of people would object to a desktop PC working this way, maybe some wouldn't. There does seem to be a level of frustration with users (typically Windows PC owners) installing malware, and this isn't the first time someone has proposed giving up and taking the power and authority out of their hands. What's interesting, though, is when you cross the line going down to a certain size (Apple's tablet being the new threshold) it's no longer just an idea, but is actually happening.
Imagine if desktop PCs had evolved like the handheld ones are. Pretty sad. And pretty scary to think that the phone/gameconsole mindset still might infect the desktop. Why can't the next Mac come with IOS or the next Dell come with Windows Phone 7 or the next whitebox x86 come with Android -- and "brick" if the user tries to install something that doesn't suck? Throw in lock-in subsidies from ISPs, and people might actually buy 'em, and then desktop developers who want access to the widest market, might find themselves having to kiss the ass of the repository maintainers (a.k.a. "app store"), not be allowed to write competing apps, etc. This kind of shit would have totally prevented a lot of tech that we all take for granted today. Lame.
Re:I'm not as bothered as I should be (Score:4, Interesting)
All those years of bitching about Windows and saying "This isn't normal!" and being right. At some undefinable point, the bizarre alien weirdness became old enough and accepted enough to pass as "normal." The facts changed underneath me.
Damn you, AC, for pointing that out. Another little part of me just died. Fuck you. Fuck you with a chainsaw, for being right.
[Deep breath] Ok, so Windows is [choke] ..
Nnn..
Nnnnn..
Fuck you.
Windows is nnnn
Fuck.
Windows is normal.
It's normal, like how dog shit sometimes appearing in the back hall of the house is normal, now that I've had this puppy for 8 months. It wasn't normal and then, one day, it was normal. Ok, I get it. You bastard. AC, did I mention "fuck you?" I just wanna make sure we're clear on this: fuck you for implying Windows is normal and being right. Probably right. Right under protest. Fuck you.)
So .. if that OS is that way (you know what I mean), even so: Windows users have the option of not installing (or removing if preloaded) AV software, don't they? Isn't the owner still ultimately empowered to take on the job of cleaning up their malware?
(I'm still in shock. Tomorrow we might have to fight about the N word applying to that OS. I gotta gather my wits here. If someone wants to step in and explain how that AC just tricked me, go for it,)
So they sell it, make a buck, then take it? (Score:3, Insightful)
I always thought selling me something then taking it back was theft.
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Did you not learn from the laptops, Microsoft does not give refunds.
You will need to see the maker of the application. Microsoft would just be the company protecting you my removing it from your handset.
Personally, I dont need protection. Where is the off switch for there kill switch? (Dont really care if it is a ms product, apple product, google product, or a ford product)
Remember, kids... (Score:5, Insightful)
If someone else can come in remotely and change what you've got installed, it's not your system and it's not your software.
But we encourage you to think of it as your own - it makes the fees hurt less, and we can always straighten you out on the details of ownership later.
Re:Remember, kids... (Score:4, Insightful)
If people don't like the platform, they don't have to use it (yet).
Re:Remember, kids... (Score:5, Interesting)
You could always root/jailbreak your android/iphone and disable the kill switch.
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(except this newest version of windows.. but it isn't exactly out yet so i don't count it)
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I won't argue with you. I was just stating what was the case. For the record: I'm in agreement with you.
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The sad part, what I want/need a device to do, usually isn't on the open platforms.
1: Exchange support with strong encryption, so if a person is stupid enough to leave the device in the back of a taxi, someone with basic forensic skills cannot easily get sensitive E-mail and documents. Here, iPhones are decent, but the best (assuming no BES) would be a WM device with encryption on the memory card flipped on.
Ideally, I'd like to see Android have LUKS as an option on both the data filesystem and the SD card
Reversal of intent (Score:3, Interesting)
maybe you should reconsider who or what's "gone wrong"
GPL - which is the license used by the Linux kernel and a good deal of the userspace (generally Busybox, Dropbear, etc. Sometimes GNU on more featured Linux Phone OSes) - was explicitely designed to make sure that the *END USER* *always* remain 100% in control of the software he has. (Can use it, copy it, study it, modify it, remix it, whatever) No matter what intermediate the software has gone through on its way to the user.
Kill switches are exactly designed in the opposite direction : No matter what, the
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So I have to be stuck on Windows Mobile 6 forever, then.
Ironically, I bought a WM 6 phone because of this and the openness in general.
Generally, yes. Also depending on the hardware specs, you may not be able to install WP7 at all. WP7 has stricter hardware requirements that WM6. That and MS is pushing for more developers on WP7 means slowly there will not be any developers left on WM6 if they haven't left already for Android or iPhone or RIM, etc.
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This is a general purpose computer we are talking about, so it's not even your hardware in any meaningful sense of the word. What you own is a plastic-silicon brick which can function as a computer whenever Microsoft is feeling generous. You are basically renting a computer without an administrative account. Run afoul of the contract terms, and you are back to owning a brick.
Fuck you Microsoft, and fuck you Apple: if you are marginally better now, it won't last long. The only big players poised to create
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Too grainular (Score:3, Insightful)
If the handset is causing issues with the network because of a rouge application just shut down the handset. (Well, allow 911 or your local PSAP number.) This, hopefully, would be just an AUP issue. Sometimes a hammer is the right tool.
Re:Too grainular (Score:4, Insightful)
You're saying that it's better to disable the entire device instead of remove the one offending application? I'm not sure how you made that conclusion, but how would the owner recover their device if Microsoft shut the entire thing down? Should Microsoft or any handset vendor be allowed to simply disable the entire device?
Re:Too grainular (Score:5, Insightful)
You're saying that it's better to disable the entire device instead of remove the one offending application?
It can actually be less intrusive. I have no 'right' to use a network, so if I am screwing up the network because of an app I have, kicking me off the network doesn't do anything to MY equipment.
It means I can install whatever I want on my phone and no backdoors are needed.
Think of it like renting a car to someone. You can do whatever the hell you like to your body, but I don't want you smoking in my car. I refuse you the car, but I don't confiscate your cigarettes.
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I meant to say, shut off the radio.
Disable the connection (Score:2)
You're saying that it's better to disable the entire device instead of remove the one offending application?
No. Think more like "Towers refusing regular connections from aggressive phones".
- You get to install what you want.
- If some service provider can't take the load (US towers are bad at connection build/tear-down) they'll just refuse to speak to that phone (except for 911 / 112 calling). Or otherwise limit the affected service (Refuse data connections, degrade 3G to 2G) and send an alert message ("Too much data connection per minute, please uninstall application XYZ").
- At no point in time is any remote cont
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If I were to put rouge on my handset my neighbours son would be SO...SO jealous.
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How about just a little foundation [wikipedia.org] then?
Nokia (Score:2)
Anybody know if they have such a switch?
Given how much their phones (going forward) are pretty much open, I wonder where they'd put a killswitch.
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No, Nokia does not have a Kill Switch. However, in the event of a rogue app infestation on their smart-phones, Nokia is capable of pushing an app to excavate the offending app before initiating a self-distruct. This is done with the users permission and discretion via the pre-installed Software Update app.
Imagery (Score:2, Interesting)
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I think my imagination was more literal.
I see Bill Gates/Ballmer laughing maniacally at a big red button with my name under it ready to detonate the 3oz of C4 I have next to my ear...
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What about smoke filled dimly lit rooms where a man in a highbacked leather chair muses for several pregnant moments before uttering:
I want it dead.
We should applaud Microsoft for security (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft has made a lot of poor security choices in the past, so we should praise them when they do something that will improve the general level of mobile application security. All mobile platforms to-date have kill mechanisms, for the average user it's a great thing to be able to shut down a rogue app en-masse and not have to wait for even an update cycle.
Experienced technical users will ALWAYS have the equivalent of Jailbreaking to prevent applications from being removed or modified externally if they so wish. But that is a choice that should be made by a technically informed person after consideration, not a default configuration that the general public has to live with the repercussions from for the next decade.
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Note, I'm not talking about a "Jailbreak" option, because that'll never happen. I'm talking about a "Disable Killswitch" option.
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Why not just make it an option? Not an option you'd just randomly stumble across and disable, mind you. I mean it's in a very specific place in the configuration, and when you toggle it, it pops up a disclaimer explaining what you are going to do and asking you if you are sure you want to accept the risk.
If you are going to all that trouble to prevent someone from doing it, why even include the ability to do so?
What you described actually sounds more annoying than jailbreaking, and has less utility in the e
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Even if the rogue app itself can't disable the kill switch, the user is still susceptible to the dancing bunnies problem.
When the app instructs them to disable the kill switch so that they can see the dancing bunnies, by god, the users _will_ disable any and all security mechanisms they can, just to see the dancing bunnies. Because, goddamned, they HAVE to see the dancing bunnies. You do know that dancing bunnies are awesome, right?
Also, I have to say, the notion that people in a community like slashdot sho
Re:We should applaud Microsoft for security (Score:5, Insightful)
Which is why the right way to do it is with a configuration setting that you help the user select at purchase/installation time and through user training. Yes, people don't want training, but that's the price of using a complicated feature rich application. Give people the option to
1) enable automatic remote kill
2) enable automatic remote kill prompting
3) disable it
4) enable it on sync
5) subscribe to push notifications of kill requests
There's lots of ways to handle this--but automatic remote kill is only one of them, and the last tech friendly. Not just because geeks don't like DRM, but because it exposes all applications to a very real Denial of Service risk. What happens when somebody spoofs a remote kill to my VPN adapter or its corporate nameserver? What about remote killing my asset management application that scans barcodes (even if poorly) from the camera?
Hell, doctors have PHI on phones these days--you *need* remote kill on that app, but the consequences of deletion could be medically deadly.
Point us--remote kill isn't wrong because it's remote kill. It's wrong because there's no choice or control without jailbreaking it.
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What happens when somebody spoofs a remote kill to my VPN adapter or its corporate nameserver?
Much less than what happens than when the 1% of users that change the configuration just because they can, get hit by a keylogger that cannot be removed.
Even though all modern smartphone platforms have this ability we have yet to see such a denial of service attack, and at worst it would be a minor inconvenience compared to damage a more lax security policy can cause, even one where you can simply configure it to b
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On the other hand, if you acknowledge that remote kill is sometimes necessary then 2, 3 and potentially 5 are counterproductive.
Presumably, the users installed and want the application in question because it is installed on their phone, and the negative effects are not noticable, or they would have uninstalled the application themselves. Think of reasons Microsoft might (legitimately) want to remote kill an application: Something that is stealing identities, violating privacy, etc; something that is caus
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Never say never, and never say always. Look how long it took to JB the iPhone 4, and iOS 4.1's baseband has yet to be cracked. It won't be that long before devices take so long to root or jailbreak that they are obsolete and new models are on the market. All it takes is Microsoft, Apple, and Motorola to delay the rooters/modders/jailbreakers 1-2 years, and they have completely won the game because most people would have moved on by then.
The best answer to keeping Joe Sixpack in the walled garden so he do
A baffling non sequitor (Score:2)
How does information about this topic relate to (or even prevent) people from testing apps?
Re:A baffling non sequitor (Score:4, Informative)
So they are focusing on their primary line of defense being the acceptance testing.
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Rare and non-rare events . . . (Score:2)
but in the rare event that we need to, we have the tools to take action
And, but in the non-rare event where we don't intend to, we have the tools to take action, by mistake.
"Yo! Who hit the kill switch?"
Oy vey... (Score:4, Funny)
"Unpublish it"? As opposed to simply de-listing it, or removing it from the catalog? "Very rogue"? I had no idea there was a spectrum of roguishness. I sincerely hope that English is his second language. I don't feel the need to correct the spelling or grammar of Slashdot commentators, but this guy is speaking on behalf of a giant corporation.
Old tricks (Score:3, Funny)
"A lack of synergy will commit us to depublishing your works and down-sizing your position. Thanks to competitive agreements with neighbors, we've cornered the market in potential employment with a bonus outreach to family members."
OR
"Since you don't share in the corporate culture around here, you're going to be censored and eventually fire
Orwell would be proud (Score:2)
More like, in the event that it would benefit us, regardless of its cost to you. Seriously, when the hell does anyone need to remotely kill some app on your phone? ... Yeah, I thought so.
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Seriously, when the hell does anyone need to remotely kill some app on your phone? ... Yeah, I thought so.
When a court orders them to do so.
Up until now, they've been able to say that they can't. Now that they can, its only a matter of time before they are compelled to.
So why did they implement this? Probably to gain the support of precisely the people who will take them court to get a court order requiring them to use it. You know what, I don't really even blame Microsoft.
Define: Very Rogue (Score:4, Interesting)
We could unpublish it from the catalog so that it was no longer available, but if it was very rogue then we could remove applications from handsets - we don't want things to go that far, but we could
I wonder whether "very rogue" is anything like when Windows Genuine Advantage was classified as a security update, and pushed out with the rest of the critical patches.
~Loyal
Rally? (Score:2)
Is it great that they (ALL of
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You can use the hardware exactly however you want (barring FCC regulations of course). But that's not what you are whining about now is it? You want to use software on that hardware however you want, and you don't own the software. You are leasing it, so no, you can't do whatever you want to the software, but you are free to wipe all the software off the device and use the hardware any way you want.
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Oh, and chill with the hostility. Not sure where that stuff comes from. I just don't think things are as bad as is often por
Entirely new idea: (Score:3, Funny)
How about we sell phones that the customer actually OWNS and CONTROLS?
Crazy thought, huh?
sooo (Score:2)
Soon for the PC (Score:2)
Don't worry, maybe in 5 years we will have it for the PC as well. With the Cloud and SaaS it's easier.
Why are people are get along with it? It's not only the marketplace, which now everybody sells as the best thing since sliced bread, not only the kill switches on their e-book readers and smartphones, but the general DRM scheme and the EULAs and licenses. I observe, that if it's software or a digital work, the customers are going to live with every abuse the provider can get away with. I always laugh if I t
I hope they have a patent on this (Score:2)
Remember People (Score:2)
Its just a phone. Once they start doing this to your computers, THEN you can get upset.
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How sad that the phone is so insecure that malicious code could run.
Everything can run malic... wait...
Oh, OK. Trolling. Carry on then.
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this seems baiting....
...until someone points out that Apple and Google did this before M$
Re:hmm (Score:4, Insightful)
TFA pointed it out. I decided quite some time ago I'm just going to keep using my dumb phone; It's just smart enough to make calls, take calls, text, email, and access a limited internet.
I don't want a third party screwing around with MY property, thanks.
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Also, I just happened to recall that I know this guy who makes a great SSH client for it... :D
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The Nokia N900 is fairly safe as well; apt repositories usually don't perform actions the user doesn't request.
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wha? they can only take away app store stuff - not everything.
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Indeed. Plus Apple have never used it yet but Google have. So who are the bad guys?
Re:hmm (Score:5, Funny)
Commodore, for sitting on their asses and letting the Amiga fall behind the competition?
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Indeed. Plus Apple have never used it yet but Google have. So who are the bad guys?
Google has used it because the Android app store is not strictly regulated for entry. Google takes down malicious apps AFTER they've been made available to the world. So their use of the kill switch is actually a good thing.
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So who are the bad guys?
Everybody.
Re:hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
So who are the bad guys?
Everybody.
I think you've not only figured out big business, but politics as well.
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Nice guys get their throats cut and their backs stab.
They aren't even finishing last.
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http://www.slashgear.com/ndrive-gps-app-disappears-from-apple-app-store-kill-switch-the-culprit-0893419/
if you don't like the site check around
Wrong, Apple seems to have used it... (Score:2)
Indeed. Plus Apple have never used it yet but Google have. So who are the bad guys?
From http://www.slashgear.com/ndrive-gps-app-disappears-from-apple-app-store-kill-switch-the-culprit-0893419/ [slashgear.com]
The application itself went for $2.99 in the App Store, and it provided upwards of 1.8GB of US map data. However, it sounds like people didn’t have long to download it, or enjoy it for that matter, before the application itself was pulled from the App Store. And then subsequently pulled from customer’s iPhones as well ..
Customers on forums are reporting the same thing, such as those on Apple Discussions, saying that the app was on their device, but now it’s just gone.
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Amazon didn't pull an app, just a book that no one needs to read.
Re:Thanks for the warning. (Score:4, Insightful)
Look, it's time to face reality. This is 2010, not 1990. This is a FEATURE for most people, not a drawback. They are sick and fed up with PCs and malware/spyware and anything that helps avoid this problem is worth more to them, not less.
Apple does the same thing with iDevices and they are doing a brisk business and battling with Google for supremacy in the mobile computing space. The market has spoken, and it wants a safer computing experience which is provided by this ability.
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Although it would be nice if it was optional, i.e. you receive a notice email/message telling you what the issue is with Ignore and Remove Offending App buttons.
Re:Thanks for the warning. (Score:4, Insightful)
</tinfoilhat>
Too late (Score:2)
They are sick and fed up with PCs and malware/spyware and anything that helps avoid this problem is worth more to them, not less.
Except that, by the time a smart-phone is infected, you can't trust the kill switch to function correctly any more.
(Just like most modern PC malware try to bury themselves deeper, away from the virus scanner's reach)
Desktop "Walled gardens" not a problem, as long as (Score:2)
If people had a computer/device with no accessible admin root privs, an App Store that would slap down a word processor, Web browser, and maybe a version of Solitaire, there would be few complaints from the Joe Sixpack gallery, especially with an app store that is popular.
Well, as long as the possibility to get out of the walled garden is still offered, that's 100% OK with me.
You would indeed have described the situation of Linux desktops :
- Default user accounts are non-admin (you have to switch to root to do admin stuff, and you have to provide a password for that. This avoids doing it by incident).
- By default, software packages are pulled from the main repository (a place with known-good controlled applications)
- En user is free to add other repositories to the list to p
Re:Thanks for the warning. (Score:5, Insightful)
Now I have no need to even consider getting one.
Nor an iPhone, nor an Android device, nor a Palm webOS device, nor a BlackBerry (assuming you're on a BES system). Indeed, when your world is black and white many decisions are easy.
WebOs & PreWare (Score:2)
nor a Palm webOS device
The default "walled garden"-type application manager has a kill switch to remotely remove installed applications.
But people interested in homebrew and other such advanced forms of uses can install (just install. No hacking/exploiting/jailbreaking involved. Just activate dev-mode with the corresponding command) other package managers (PreWare is an example) which can pull software from repositories which aren't controlled by the ISP or HP/Palm.
The command-line (enabled by the devmode or by installing SSH - a
Re:Thanks for the warning. (Score:4, Insightful)
Now I have no need to even consider getting one.
I doubt you would get one anyways.
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Go GOP! Who voted for the dems in the first place??? Morons.
That's MORANS. If you are going to show your support for the system that keeps the same type of people in power all the time, at least use the correct sub-language for your team!
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He's referring to this [about.com]. You missed the memo...er, meme?
Re:Another reason to keep my Blackberry? (Score:4, Interesting)
except with RIM all of your data flows through the Blackberry Internet Service so all they have to do is block it there. at least with apple and google there is no middle proxy between the carrier and the internet
Re:This should be good (Score:4, Insightful)
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Not Facebook or SCO?
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Not a total non-story. It's good to be reminded that the capability exists, even if we come to the consensus that it's not a big deal, or even that it's a good thing. Not ever story on Slashdot has to result in moral outrage. Sometimes we can look at something and say "Yeah, that's probably and okay feature to have."
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1 - Phones need more phones. not less apps - just more phone functionality
2 - kill switch - this "could" go badly, but I'd like to see the history of use... Malicious app - Definitely see the use of it. Pirated app? Unlicensed app? Non-approved app? Patched app? These are more of a "Would they? Just because they can doesn't mean they should or will."