Microsoft Bans VoIP, Rival Stores At Mobile Market 151
narramissic writes "Microsoft has identified 12 application types that won't be accepted at the MarketPlace for Mobile store. Among them: VoIP apps, programs that are larger than 10MB, and programs that change the default browser on a device. Overly restrictive? Maybe. But perhaps the clear set of rules (PDF) will prevent confusion similar to what's been encountered over Apple's policy for approving or rejecting applications from the App Store."
Excuse me (Score:2, Insightful)
Excuse me for saying this, but does anybody else think this is MADNESS!!?? They are not going very far with those restricitions. Follow the way of the Zune.
Re:Excuse me (Score:5, Insightful)
I personally don't care, since you are not tied to this store to get applications for Windows Mobile. This is not Apple where you have to jailbreak the device to install software from anywhere.
Re:Excuse me (Score:5, Insightful)
The top 2 things in the prohibited list are "Applications that link to, incent users to download, or otherwise promote alternate
marketplaces" and "Applications that are or distribute alternate marketplaces".
This doesn't fill me with confidence about the future of alternatives to Microsoft's store, surely they must be envious of Apple's 30% cut of 1 billion app sales.
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Wait a minute. What's a "supplied market place?" Before these goofy phones came along, I never heard of such a thing.
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Wrong question?
Why would the marketplace accept a crippled device from company A when company B doesn't restrict their app store?
I mean, who does MS think they are? Apple? Do they think they have any star power?
Business types, MS's traditional cash cow, switched to Blackberries, and since Vista, people *have* gotten fired for buying Microsoft. They aren't really hip and cool. They don't appeal to kids...
Don't they realize they're the LG of the market now? They're now the crap you whine about getting at work
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My question was, who does MS think they are to want us to buy this crap - no business appeal anymore, no popular appeal, etc. Yes, the iPhone is worse, but Apple isn't delusional at least. They know all the Apple fanboys exist and just how far they can push them. MS seems to be stuck in the Win95 days - when people would line up outside a store to buy their products.
Sure, you can install other apps on the device, but it's a general OS device, it pretty much has to. But MS still goes out of their way to pain
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Um, that's the whole point of the Marketplace - to promote partners and competition.
The only restrictions are you can't submit a [...]
So, which is it? Promote partners and competition, or place arbitrary rules on what they can provide?
... competing marketplace
Yeah, because actual competition would be too painful. That way they couldn't enforce their restrictions.
... VoIP (due to carrier restriction)
Oh yeah, they wanted to give users VOIP, they really did, but the big bad carriers said no to the world's largest software provider.
Or maybe they're just showing who their customers really are...
... shells
Because they just like making rules.
... anything that changes the user's default apps. They want the user to change their settings for themselves.
Nothing that changes the user's defaults apps unasked, like windows upd
Re:Excuse me (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyone familiar with the PlaysForSure initiative should be extremely wary of purchasing anything for these devices without a way to guarantee that they'll work after Microsoft moves on to greener pastures.
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Anyone with any understanding of DRM at all should be wary of any service that employs DRM that depends on a server (there is some distinction between server based schemes and something like DVD style protection, the latter being someone less likely to explode).
Of course, whether than means not using it at all or simply factoring it into the purchasing decision is going to be up to the individual. The short term payoff could well be significant enough that the DRM simply isn't relevant.
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Reading this I am starting to wonder how I managed to get software for my windows mobile devices all these years since I got an XDA in 2004.
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Re:Excuse me (Score:4, Insightful)
In their offense, this ruling doesn't make sense.
Apple apps don't run on Windows phones; hell, most of their own apps barely run on their phones. My Windows 5 Treo 700w is miserable.
It's true that banning VoIP makes friends with the carriers. A good alt.store some place will deliver those apps soon. Then things are out of the carrier's gouging control again, and so much the better.
Competition is cool. The Amazons of the world can actually make money from rivals, easily and handily.
Open a store, make it a cool and safe place to go, and clean up. Microsoft keeps hardware vendors in business by getting their OS and apps to run in lots of places on lots of hardware. Their UI, good or bad as it might be, is at least understood. They have a chance to be egalitarian, but instead, copy the mistakes of their rivals, instead of breaking new ground. Oh, wait.... that's what they always do-- or at least that's the perception.
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Uh, no.
Your analogies don't hold water at all. I think skype on a mobile phone is great. I want dialtone, not monopoly in the same way that I want a carrier/Internet connection of some kind. I'll buy the products and services from whom I wish, and not be captive to some joker MBA's idea of a monopoly. Choice counts.
Enslaving developers to draconian rules is not only boorish, but it's ultimately harmful to the business doing it-- and consumers get wise to the BS quickly, and go elsewhere.
Say you were the #4
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Microsoft is offering quality, selection, variety, and freedom.
At least, I'm pretty sure that the banned list wouldn't exclude "shake-a-baby" apps. That's quality, selection, variety, and freedom. Of a sort.
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By that logic you can even justify murder. Don't glorify it, this is horrible. This is just as bad as McDonalds employees spitting in your food. I don't understand how people can be so easilly manipulated to accept these things
I dunno, maybe because this ISN'T equivolent to murder or people spitting in your food? Really, if this is your biggest concern, get a life.
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It really depends on what they see as their revenue stream.
One option is to try to lock all your customers in to your vertical stack, such that you spend all your money with them. This is known as the "bundle everything with your OS" tactic. Microsoft has had some success with this.
Another option is to enable partners to drive sales of your base product. That is, you provide the base product (say OS) and encourage others to provide value to your product by producing add-ons. This could be known as the "
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If something is not allowed by your Mobile provider connect via SSH or VPN to your home server. In case you don't have one, buy the service from TPB or any other trusted company. 5E per month is a cheap solution.
Only Joe six pack will be affected by those limitation. But once Joe sees what I can do with my Android he will want one too.
M$ has lost the train for the future a long time ago or they simply don't care any more.
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I'm not real sure that a policy of not promoting other appstores puts them at a competitive disadvantage versus Apple, which simply refuses to support any other appstores.
Re:Excuse me (Score:5, Insightful)
That 1 billion is a misnomer.
Every time you download an update to an app, its considered a sale (and you get a $0 receipt for it).
I'm sure I've racked up hundreds of sales, but I've only bought maybe four programs.
Re:Excuse me (Score:4, Informative)
Where are you getting this information? I've never seen a bill for an app update (even a $0 bill) and I've not seen any mention of this anywhere else.
The only thing I've seen that's remotely close is comparisons of the various developer programs, for a developer on Symbian a new app and an update to an existing app are priced/processed the same. However, that has nothing to do with apps sold.
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Every time someone downloads from me, whether it is new or an update, I get a receipt. It is recorded in my daily/weekly statement.
But nowhere does it say that apple is using updates to count its 1 billion downloads. You are just making shit up.
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And I can't remember the source, but IIRC Apple said that updates didn't count toward the "1 billion apps downloaded"
Though, if you do the math, there have been something like 40 million devices sold running iPhone OS. That'd put the apps downloaded per device somewhere near 25, which sounds a little bit high.
Re:Excuse me (Score:5, Insightful)
Could we maybe wait until such restrictions are actually, you know, announced, before bashing MS for them?
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I'm already on the iFork mailing list for pre-order updates!
Re:Excuse me (Score:4, Funny)
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Ah, that would be the [SA]HatfulOfHollow Edition.
Re:Excuse me (Score:5, Funny)
Who's to say the next IPhone won't stab users in the face with a fork?
And when it does, you can bet that it will be touted as an advantage :)
"It doesn't matter that other phones stabbed users in the face with a fork, Apple were the first ones to integrate the fork properly with your face".
And when the next version after that removes the fork-stabbing, there'll be media hype and praise [slashdot.org] about that too.
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I'm talking about phones, not music players. The number of people who care about the Zune as a music player is about the same number that care about the Iphone as a phone.
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(Score:2, Troll)
Awesome.
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The killer is they won't accept VoIP apps. Any attempt at control creates a pressure for change away from that control. The market will simply move past Microsoft.
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Um, the restrictions are basically nothing. The ones Apple use are far more restrictive (e.g. arbitrarily remove an app just because it costs $1000 and does nothing but show a picture of a red ruby).
I can foresee this list spiralling.
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Madness???!?!?!
THIS
IS
REDMOND!
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Only the restriction on replacing the SMS/MMS interface seems braindamaged to me. You can likely already configure a winmo phone to send those messages via TCP. If I had unlimited internet on my cellphone (RAZR V3i) I could do this, and send SMS and MMS for free. (I don't...)
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Exactly. I can't see anything in there that would stop porn, or the baby-shaking app, or anything else that could be controversial or offensive. The first time someone tries to submit an app like that, Microsoft is going to have to accept it, and deal with the PR firestorm, or reject it, and deal with the PR firestorm. :-P
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This is a list of application types that will be rejected. I think it's safe to assume there will also be a list of application content that will be rejected, which will cover the sort of things you mention.
So? (Score:2, Interesting)
We're up in arms because they don't want you using other companies products on their stuff?
This seems like a fairly normal corporate model: why give other companies a chance to wow your consumer base?
Meanwhile, Apple's latest evil is barring Trent Reznor from using his music in an app when they sell the uncensored version of his music on itunes. I think Apple is winning the 'my store is more evil' award for now.
Re:So? (Score:4, Informative)
Like this one? (Score:2)
You mean Firefox Download links like this one?
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:q6uTxKUV5qQJ:membercenter.office.microsoft.com/+download+firefox.com+site:microsoft.com&cd=19&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us [209.85.173.132]
Re:So? (Score:5, Insightful)
no?
You already purchased Windows, one way or another (unless you're a pirate - ARRR!!!!!), so you can put whatever the heck you want on there.
The Windows Marketplace is a -store-. You don't own it. Why exactly should they have to -sell- (or offer) another company's software - especially if it's competing software?
Don't like it? Go to Handango.com or pocketgear.com or any of dozens of other stores.
Microsoft isn't stopping anybody from installing competing 'market place'-type software; they just don't want to offer/sell it through their own market place. Sounds normal to me.
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Why exactly should they have to
Who said they did. But until they do it's a fatal flaw with their device. Who needs more cellphone style lock-in when there are open platforms where people don't have to pay $5 for a "flashlight" app. This isn't some GNU-based pipe dream, there are simply unlocked phones and providers who don't feel the need to strip the manufacturer supplied goodies.
This is just a big WTF over yet another company playing these stupid games and then asking "Why do all of our customers hate us?!"
So buy whatever you want. And
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They get fined for bundling their software with their own software, but it's ok for them to simply not allow other company's software on their stuff? Isn't this the same as Microsoft not allowing Firefox on Windows?
You can simply go to othercompany.com and download the setup .exe/.cab and install it. Unlike the iPhone on which you have to jailbreak it to do that. So 'not allow' just means it won't be sold from their online store.
!Overly restrictive (Score:4, Informative)
Anyway, can't you just install unofficial apps (not from the store) if you want to bypass these restrictions? Any sort of software protection preventing this will likely be broken in short order...
Cellular telephony pricing... (Score:2)
These restrictions don't seem excessive to me, merely the [...] usual price fixing
Price fixing. Not excessive. Right...
I'm shocked by the mobile telephony prices in the US: $0.25 per text message. What The Fuck??
I get 50 messages for free every month (and 50 minutes of calls) for a monthly fee of nothing, and $0.032 per text after the first 50.
That's in the socialist haven that is Denmark, where income is most evenly distributed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality#cite_note-0 -- UN Gini, second most equal by CIA Gini, more equal than the US by every metr
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Denmark has a great way of doing things. Let's see if it scales. Doh.
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True. My buddy installed a program on his jailbroken iPhone that tells the Skype app that it's connecting via wi-fi when it's actually connecting via 3G. He lowered his monthly plan down to the minimum number of minutes, saving $30, and is now using Skype for all his calls.
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There already is a "central app store for WM." It's ugly, it ain't perfect, but it's very cheap. [rullaf.com]
Re:!Overly restrictive (Score:4, Insightful)
What do you mean unofficial.. there is no such thing in the WinMo world. Anyone can create and distribute apps for WinMo devices, in any way they please.
The only thing that the Windows Market place is allowing for is the ability for developers to create applications that can be sold through a 1 stop shopping space directly on the phone.
there is nothing stopping users from buying apps from developer websites, handango, or whatever other distribution method is out there, and installing via activesync. These are still official applications.
As for the VOIP thing, well thats to appease the carriers. And no, MS does not have to allow applications that will point to competing market place applications. Thats like Walmart selling you a coupon that points to best buy to buy a piece of software...
I read the rules a few days ago, I do not see anything wrong with them. As someone else pointed out, if you don't like those rules, go elsewhere, thats the advantage of WinMo, unlike Apple where you have to jailbreak if you want to do anything fun
disclaimer, I have an iphone.. but I also have half a dozen winmo phones too.
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Except, the ability to install applications on Windows Mobile is dependent on the carrier. Most carriers ship the phone "unlocked" (can run unsigned binaries), but there's always the option to "lock" the phone (only allow signed binaries to run, from a specific list of signers)
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The no VoIP will have been imposed by phone companies who don't want their customers making cheap calls.
God forbid we should let the market decide! The phone companies have spent a lot of time chaining their customers to the floor, we can't just let them buy hacksaws, now can we?
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> The no VoIP will have been imposed by phone companies who don't want
> their customers making cheap calls
Ok, but it's stupid and won't work. This is a technological advancement that is showing that the current business model for cell phone companies is dying. They either need to find a way to cut prices to be competitive with VoIP or they need to embrace VoIP themselves.
Perhaps you are familiar with what has happened to the CD recording industry when the established players didn't pay any fscking att
Funny (Score:1)
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This isn't about devices, this is about an App Store. If I understand correctly, you can install whatever you want on MS devices, you just can't get everything from the app store. From Apple, you can't install anything on the device you purchase from them without their permission.
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(1) RIM sold more devices in the last quarter; marketshare has nothing to do with that. You are quoting nonsense. In addition, iPhone sales dropped off a cliff last year when people realized a new iPhone model was on its way, and the same is happening now.
(2) What the hell are you talking about with Linux surpassing MS and Apple? RIM devices don't run Linux. The closest thing which exists to handheld UNIX is the iPhone, which is based on BSD UNIX and the Darwin kernel, just like the desktop version of Mac O
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Wow, you really don't understand it, do you. But don't let that stop your from posting your mangled rubbish.
RIM has always had a higher marketshare from Apple, since RIM has been around 4 times longer than Apple, and sell devices on all networks. They have over 50 million devices, iPhone has over 20 million.
Now, what you recently read was that there was a BB model that sold more in the last quarter than Apple, beating the iPhone for the first time since the 3G model. BB has always sold more than the iPhone,
Google to the rescue! (Score:2, Funny)
dialers (Score:5, Interesting)
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I think it might be allowed, the wording isn't all that clear about it (so much for the question of clarity!). It prohibits apps that "replace, remove or modify the default dialer". Does this include alternate dialers that peacefully coexist with the default one? That depends how you interpret the word 'replace'.
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That was my interpretation as well. An app can duplicate functionality (alternate dialers, browsers, etc.) but not overwrite the existing MS-provided apps or, in the install process, make itself the default behavior for certain actions.
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But the beauty of windows mobile is that you do not have to go through an app store, installing apps on your own does not void the warrenty.
This is just guidelines for what MS will allow in the store, and it makes sense that they would not like to advertise competing products.
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There are other dialer apps you can install. You don't need the App Store for that.
And there are WinMo phones with actual buttons.
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They may have psychological reasons because of name... dialers on windows you know ;)
VOIP is NOT banned (Score:5, Informative)
Ignore the sensationalist headline, Microsoft's VOIP policy is actually the same as Apple's. VOIP is prohibited when it's over the mobile carrier's network, but it's allowed if it's not going over the mobile network.
This means the an app that only connects over wifi, like Skype for the iPhone, would be fine.
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Skype for Windows Mobile works fine over UMTS.
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Still you can use VPN and Vodafone won't be able to see what you are doing.
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Or you know...you could just go install Skype yourself.
Resistance is Futile... (Score:3, Interesting)
Windows® Marketplace for Mobile
Prohibited Application Types:
1. Applications that are or distribute alternate marketplaces for content types (applications,
games, themes etc.) that are sold or otherwise distributed through Windows® Marketplace for
Mobile.
2. Applications that link to, incent users to download, or otherwise promote alternate
marketplaces for content types that are sold or otherwise distributed through Windows
Marketplace for Mobile.
3. Applications that promote or link users to a website, or contain functionality within the
application itself, which encourages or requires the user to purchase or pay to upgrade the
application outside of Windows® Marketplace for Mobile.
4. Applications that enable VoIP (Voice over IP) services over a mobile operator network.
5. Applications that sell, link to, or otherwise promote mobile voice plans.
6. Applications that display advertising that does not meet the Microsoft Advertising Creative
Acceptance Policy Guide http://advertising.microsoft.com/creative-specs.
7. Applications that replace, remove or modify the default dialer, SMS, or MMS interface.
8. Applications that change the default browser, search client, or media player on the device.
9. Applications with an OTA (over the air) download >10 MB.
10. Applications that run code outside Microsoft runtimes (native, managed, and widgets)
11. Applications that publish a userâ(TM)s location information to any other person without first having
received the userâ(TM)s express permission (opt-in) to do so, and that do not provide the user a
means of opting out of having their location information published.
12. Applications that publish a userâ(TM)s data from their mobile device to any other person without first
having received the userâ(TM)s express permission (opt-in) to do so, and that do not provide the user
a means of opting out of having their data published. A âoeuserâ(TM)s dataâ includes, without limit,
contacts, photos, SMS or other text communication, browsing history, location information, and
other data either stored on the mobile device or stored in the âoecloudâ but accessible from the
mobile device
Microsoft reserves the right to update these policies as needed to protect the Windows® Marketplace
for Mobile service or the users of the service
Re:Resistance is Futile... (Score:4, Insightful)
Windows® Marketplace for Mobile
Prohibited Application Types:
1. Applications that... etc
Basically 'You can't sell stuff in our store which directly competes with the stuff we sell in our store?'
That sounds like a perfectly reasonable policy for a store owner to have.
That only becomes a problem when you have a monopoly. In this case, Microsoft don't. They don't across Platforms because of Apple, Palm, Android, and they don't within their own platform, because you can go elsewhere for apps (unlike with Apple!)
Resistance is Futile? (Score:4, Insightful)
1-3 make good business sense
4,5,7,9 are probably rules pushed by the provider
7,8,10 protect tech support
11,12 are to protect the consumer
6 is probably just a loophole to make sure they can get around any creative ideas that would have been intended to fall under 1-3 but might not be covered.
Of course if you are unhappy with these rules maybe you could return to the open and free policies of buying apps for your iPhone...
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7. Applications that replace, remove or modify the default dialer, SMS, or MMS interface.
8. Applications that change the default browser, search client, or media player on the device.
In other words: anything that makes our crappy OS suck less...
It's kind of strange that they think this is okay, but they haven't added "email client" to one the above lists. Maybe they just forgot it or they know, that mobile outlook is so crappy that it would be useless...
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Oh good. The shaken baby app can be ported to WM without running afoul of MicroSoft's App Guidelines. ~
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Wouldn't this restriction prohibit IE8?
MS sells out (Score:5, Funny)
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Not interested (Score:2)
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Yeh, we have recently seen how much Apple cares about its developers, with the recent stories of their payment system being months behind.
Hey, you insenstitive clods! I develop a... (Score:2)
... game with VoIP, that needs 15 MB and has its own in-game browser. How will I sell this thing now! *waaaaahh*
I even had a cool name for it: eMacs mobile
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The same way you could always sell apps for Windows Mobile. This isn't Apple we're talking about here, Microsoft doesn't restrict how you write, install or sell apps at all. These are just the rules to use their store.
Phone app "markets" (Score:2)
Can you imagine what it would be like, if there was one central store for your personal computer software?
The situation with the phones (Apple's, Google's, Microsoft's) is totally absurd.
And yet, people are talking about the restrictions on the software in "market," rather than the existence of these "markets" and the railroading of so many users into them.
User, you've got TCP/IP. The world should be your market.
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You do know that only one of the companies you have listed actually restricts people to their marketplace, and that it's trivially easy to find applications for the other two somewhere else?
12 more reasons (Score:2, Interesting)
Microsoft hates competition (Score:2)
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10 Meg ought to be enough for everybody... (Score:2)
Mod +1 Meme
Actually... (Score:2, Interesting)
Microsoft bans VoIP? (Score:2)
I can understand why network operators ban the protocols. Particularly when they offer their own phone services. But why Microsoft? Are they getting into the phone biz themselves?
Be afraid, Verizon (Qwest, AT&T, et al). Be very afraid.
Apple List Shorter (Score:3, Funny)
Exact same mistake on 10MB limit (Score:2)
For years, I wondered one thing... Why on earth Symbian developers are so paranoid about the .sisx (installer) size while everyone on planet who can afford a $20 application has a flat/wifi line? For a goodly written Symbian application, the "device on board flash" is not an issue either, you can install the application to memory card and it can swap in/out to built in flash (e.g. temp files). J2ME developers on other hand, has some issues and I can understand them. The deep issue with J2ME is the sandbox s
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I use Windows Mobile devices since 2004 and I love them - they are very versatile. Never had the problems you mentioned so maybe your device is broken or you have installed a lot of crappy software on it.
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Interesting. My device is from AT&T. So you're saying AT&T badly broke WM6 phones and never tried to update/fix the problem? That's horrible. I'll look at XDA forum--hopefully there's a way I can strip out AT&T's malware without having to become a mobile phone expert in the process.
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the easiest way to remove customisation from a windows mobile device is to hard reset it and when it boots and sais: installing custom software in three seconds, do a soft reset. then you'll have a clean virgin windows mobile to tamper with. custom roms from xda-developers are still a better solution, though.
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Interesting. My device is from AT&T. So you're saying AT&T badly broke WM6 phones and never tried to update/fix the problem? That's horrible. I'll look at XDA forum--hopefully there's a way I can strip out AT&T's malware without having to become a mobile phone expert in the process.
I see you've never owned a cell phone before this one. Vendor-branded phones are almost always produced for the sole purpose of screwing up the originally nice OS provided by the manufacturer. AT&T does this, Verizon does this, Sprint does this, and T-Mobile does this. I can't comment on Boost Mobile :P
My Sprint phone barely lasted one day for idle, talking, and a few hours of train rides. I installed a modded OS and voila: 2 days of battery life for the same behavior, instantly functional GPS that
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I have never owned a smartphone of any sort. I have used WM6 and WM5 phones which were provided by my employer. Both have been complete garbage, but then both came with "branding" software.
I just went through a process I found online to remove branding software from my WM6 phone, and it does seem to be more responsive. It's still bad enough that I would not consider spending my own money on such a phone.
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Yes, the fact that you spent the time to figure out how to do custom ROMs for phones clearly indicates that you are more intelligent than the other 99.999% of the human population. We are all very impressed.
Not really a 10MB limit though (Score:2)
Just like the VOIP thing, the 10MB limit seems only to apply for "OTA apps".
To me that's a weird restriction though as it should be enforced in the store what users can or cannot download over the carrier network, but instead it seems like possibly you are required to tell them which mechanism your app allows.
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That only applies to downloads on a cell network (and the same limitation exists in Apple's App Store). Just download the dictionary over wifi.
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Dictionaries are a whole excellent App category that exists on the iPhone, and can be supremely useful when traveling. Microsoft is eliminating them for no discernible reason. Yeah, the MS App store is going to be a HUGE success. Good luck with that.
MS isn't eliminating anything. There are tens of thousands of WinMo apps out there right now on the internet, and the vast majority are free. Many of the posters in this story are treating this new WinMo store like it's the Apple App Store. They're not the same. On an unbroken iPhone, you have the App Store as your single source of software. The WinMo store is more akin to NewEgg...if you don't like it, go to the larger, cheaper, better software sources out there.