Why Your Clock Radio Is All Abuzz About iPhones 397
blackbearnh wrote in with a story that's not really about the iPhone, but if your office speakerphones beep like mine does, read on: "If you own an iPhone, you may have noticed that it has a distinct and very annoying effect on clock radios, computer speakers, car radios, and just about anything else with a speaker. The folks at O'Reilly Media aren't immune, so they set out to discover just what is it about iPhones that makes them such bad RF citizens. The iPhones aren't the only bad apples in the cell phone basket and there's not much you can do about the problem. We're really in an interesting time in that there has never been so many high-powered personal transmitters just wandering loose in the world."
Psh (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Psh (Score:4, Funny)
It's not the phones, it's the douche bag field emitted by iPhone owners.
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P.S.
Now imagine the same thing if a Whitespace Device starts broadcasting on channel 18 (directly next to WPLH-17). You won't just get noise. You'll get digital breakup of the television's video, like so: http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv/video-show-congress-white-space-interference-1014/ [broadcastengineering.com]
Re:Psh (Score:5, Informative)
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Except that when an Ipod (or other WSD) is broadcasting on channel 18, not all the signal stays inside channel 18. A lot of it spills-over into WPHL's channel 17. Think of them as the EM equivalent of harmonics of the original signal.
So you cannot place two broadcasts directly side-by-side and expect it to work. This is not a flaw of design. This is a flaw of nature. "You cannae change the laws of physics" is a favorite joke from Star Trek, but it also happens to be true. A DTV receiver cannot decode
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Sorry buddy, parent poster is needlessly blunt but essentially right.
There is nothing really wrong with them; they aren't really "crap". Its just that they aren't particularly special. Yet they are marketed (and usually priced) as if they were. The simple reality is that many other brands of speaker perform equally well at a considerably reduced price.
To put it into slashdot terms, Bose speakers are like Dell's line of gaming PCs. Nothing wrong with them per se; they are certainly functional enough, but the
Hi, I'm a Mac! (Score:3, Funny)
What's that?
Hey, I think your pager is trying to tell you something...
Maybe he should be using the clock on an iPhone. ;-)
Nothing to see here. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Nothing to see here. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Nothing to see here. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Nothing to see here. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Nothing to see here. (Score:5, Funny)
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As long as it isn't da-da-da daaa-daaa-daaa da-da-da. :-)
Re:Nothing to see here. (Score:4, Informative)
SOS for the Morse intolerant.
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You beat me to it (Score:5, Interesting)
I was going to chime in along those lines as well. This is hardly news. When the weather is ideal at departure and destination, I usually tell my pax they don't have to turn their phones off. When the weather is bad and I'm going to be shooting the ILS to minimums, the last thing I want to hear is seven or eight phones ticking in my headset from the initial approach fix to the DA.
Some phones seem to be worse than others and it sounds like the iPhone may validate the FAA's position on cell phones.
Re:Nothing to see here. (Score:4, Funny)
Yeah, to give some idea of just how non-news this is, I first noticed this effect when Slashdot was called Chips & Dips.
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Re:Nothing to see here. (Score:5, Interesting)
Mod parent up. Cell phones have been doing this since my old Nokia to my new Blackjack II.
Yup and with some computers you hear static over the speakers before the cell phone rings.
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That is a cool feature; you get advanced warning (subtle) that the phone is going to ring.
It used to also give me interference on my CRT, if I left my phone near it, which was the norm. I thought my monitor was dying.
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That is a cool feature; you get advanced warning (subtle) that the phone is going to ring.
I thought that was an intentional "feature" of the phone. I wonder why they never marketed it as such.
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I have an iphone but no one's ever called me. Sigh.
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It's not so much the computer as it is the speakers themselves. The long cheap unshielded speaker wires pick up GSM interference, whose lower harmonics result in that distinctive buzzing sound. The speaker wire basically acts as an antenna.
Digital speakers obviously don't suffer from this phenomenon, but they're hard to find outside of pro-audio circles and the occasional cheapo USB speaker set.
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no, don't mod parent up, because he clearly didn't RTFA, which is quite informative and provides a lot of insight into this issue, actually:
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It's not a magnet. It's ferrite.
Re:Nothing to see here. (Score:5, Informative)
They're a very simple passive device that works by disrupting high frequency RF passing through the cord. Since any large (long) conductor can function as an antenna, most cables are really just giant antenna, so adding a ferrite bead is a really cheap and simple way to counteract this. As for interference within a speaker itself (that is, not arriving by way of the speakerwire used to hook it up) there's not much you can do other than putting a Faraday cage around the speaker, or just moving the source of noise farther away from the speaker.
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there's not much you can do other than putting a Faraday cage around the speaker,
...how about putting a Faraday cage around the phone instead?
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It's so old they made a song about it last century ffs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCurWzyu7fM [youtube.com]
Tom...
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Is it just limited to GSM? As long as I've had a cell phone (only about 8 years now) I've noticed that 5-10 seconds before the phone begins to ring, if it's near any sort of audio equipment it will produce that distinctive buzz. Although, with the iPhone, it produces it if you just place the phone near the speakers, no phone call required. Here's my simple solution, move the iPhone to a different part of my apartment! Poof no more noise...
Although if I was a pilot this was drive me nuts...
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The phone does it any time it starts a communication with the network. With older phones, that was just during calls and network status checks. Then it started doing it with SMS messages... The iphone is constantly communicating, that's why they dictate you have an unlimited plan.
And yeah, GSM only, and not limited to ATT or iphone. I'd bet the G1's do it.
http://www.feelingcingular.com/ [feelingcingular.com]
For me, I only need to move by blackberry about 4ft away from my computer speakers. (actually, the speaker wires and th
Re:Nothing to see here. (Score:5, Informative)
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No joke. Watch CNBC sometime and you can hear everyones CrackBerry going off during the whole show. They finally starting keeping them off set, but many times guests still have them on.
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Yep... I'm relying on the subtle noise, that my *berry makes on the computer-speakers as a mail-notifier... It is, actually kind-convenient — quiet enough not to wake-up the baby, but noticeable enough not to miss an e-mail.
Re:Nothing to see here. (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know how this ever made it to any news source. I'm trying to remember how long ago the first time I noticed it. It's been at least 10 years. My first phone that did it was an old Nextel.
Re:Nothing to see here. (Score:4, Insightful)
Indeed. It is a well known phenomenon. I end up turning my blackberry off or leaving it in the kitchen on game/movie night because it makes all sorts of funny beeps on the surround system. I don't think people realize how powerful the transmitter in a cell phone is, and that it is not unique to iPhone.
Apple customers tend to be rather picky and vocal about any possible defect with Jobs' perfect little products.
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Nope. RTFA, Part 15 devices (consumer electronics, not the phones) have the following regulations:
1) Cannot interfere with devices in a "higher priority" classification (such as a licensed transmitter)
2) Must accept interference from devices in a "higher priority" classification, such as a licensed transmitter. Cell phones are, effectively, licensed transmitter. The user themselves doesn't have the license, but the carrier does.
GSM Buzz (Score:5, Informative)
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Yes, all GSM phones do this. However, since this article mentions the iPhone, it's automatically posted to the front page of Slashdot.
Aren't most iPhones still on the AT&T network, what with the whole exclusivity thing? AT&T uses GSM. My Palm Treo on AT&T does the same thing, as did my Razr before it.
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AT&T or not, all iPhones are GSM.
Re:GSM Buzz (Score:4, Insightful)
Correct, lots of cell phones do this. If people are noticing it more with the iPhone, it's probably because people are more likely to want to hook the iPhone into audio equipment than with other cell phones.
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Re:GSM Buzz (Score:5, Funny)
Meet the "GSM Devil"
I put on my robe and wizard's hat.
All GSM phones do that! (Score:5, Informative)
Maybe it's just because you guys aren't used to GSM cellphones but over here in the UK everyone recognises that noise. Anytime you put a mobile next to speakers you get that noise.
Welcome to the 1990s, America!
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Maybe it's just because you guys aren't used to GSM cellphones but over here in the UK everyone recognises that noise. Anytime you put a mobile next to speakers you get that noise.
Welcome to the 1990s, America!
Funny how this post [slashdot.org] got +5, Informative for the same thing you just said, yet your post is sitting at +1, Troll.
Re:All GSM phones do that! (Score:4, Funny)
Slashtip: Including a link to a silly gadget is always worth karma. Bashing the US can go either way.
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Funny how this post got +5, Informative for the same thing you just said, yet your post is sitting at +1, Troll.
That's ok, it wil finally be moderated correctly: -1, Redundant.
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You insinuated that the USA is technologically inferior becase we've been living without the GSM buzz? Huh... :p
Verizon/Sprint/Alltell are the only big CDMA players left in the US afaik.
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You assumed it was all CDMA, yet we were somehow experiencing the GSM buzz with our GSM iPhones which... don't connect to a network?
Sorry, but that's a big logic fail....
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Read a bit closer. The iPhone is clearly a GSM device. My OP clearly shows understanding of this fact. I assumed that GSM was somehow a new or uncommon thing in America, i.e. it was new enough that the people who work for O'Reilly, a very well known tech publishing firm, hadn't heard of this GSM artefact.
So this whole thread is just a misunderstanding on my part combined with a cheeky little comment leading sense of humour failure somewhere between me and today's moderators.
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These people know full well that GSM buzz has been around for years (even in the luddite, technology deprived United States) are merely playing off the iPhone hype (sorry, this statement was redundant.) What I find cool is that the GSM buzz is so well known it has made it's way into the metaverse, by way of the video game Grand Theft Auto IV. If the player is riding in a car and he is about to get a call (in the game) there will be a few bits of buzz right before the ringing is heard. At first I thought
One more (Score:2, Funny)
Do those people think Apple reinvented... (Score:5, Informative)
...everything regarding cellphones? Including, in this case, sometimes annoying side effects?
This is nothing new...especially if, on any other phone, you have also kept semi-constant GPRS connection.
PS. Rearranging speaker cables/etc. eliminates the problem anyway...
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Blackberries are particularly bad too. Same challenges: GPRS, constant data traffic, etc.
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When I'm watching TV I can always tell when someone's phone in the room is going to ring, as there is a loud, audible buzz in my Trinitron.
At least my Sony TV doesn't have a rootkit... that I know of. But it is suceptable to cell phone interference, and not Apple but everyone. I don't even know anyone with an iPhone.
Nextel (Score:2)
Symptoms already evident (Score:2)
Heck, I think this statement from the cell phone expert (from TFA) pretty much proves that our phones are rotting our brains:
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If there isn't a cell/microcell available, all their phones will be transmitting at max power to try to find an available cell.
I wonder what the RF safety specs say about that scenario.
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Huh... (Score:2)
Maybe it's because the computer speakers are so old that they're actually still shielded (unlike most today?) Dunno about the clock radio though, but it's pretty old too... has to be at least 5-6 years now.
if you mean iPhone it's because it gets crappy rec (Score:2)
my iphone gets much less reception than my pearl does. so i get little to no gsm buzz. my pearl would buzz any speaker within a meter or so.
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Re:Huh... (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, speakers which are magnetically shielded to prevent affecting CRTs will also likely reject the GSM buzz.
The clock radio would only pick up the GSM buzz if the speaker was on (radio or buzzer); when it's off, no problem.
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My Nokia 3610 did this also. (Score:5, Funny)
Seriously - the interference sound is identical.
My only concern really is what is this doing to my neurons, rods, cones and assorted other presumably sensitive body parts. I don't care about a goofy sound coming from my computer speakers every once in a while.
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If I recall correctly, it's below the ionization threshold, so mostly it'll heat those parts up a bit. If those parts are particularly susceptible to electric or magnetic fields, perhaps a bit more.
FCC Rules Part 15 (Score:5, Interesting)
"This device complies with Part 15 of the FCC rules. Operation is subject to the following two conditions: (1) the device may not cause harmful interference, and (2) the device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesirable operation."
obviously the folks that made my PC speakers obeyed those rules, so why is apple getting away with breaking condition 1?
Re:FCC Rules Part 15 (Score:5, Informative)
whatever happend to the label on the bottom of everything, which states that:
"This device complies with Part 15 of the FCC rules. Operation is subject to the following two conditions: (1) the device may not cause harmful interference, and (2) the device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesirable operation."
obviously the folks that made my PC speakers obeyed those rules, so why is apple getting away with breaking condition 1?
The iPhone isn't operating under Part 15. It's licensed. Your cell provider holds the license from the FCC. They paid a lot of money for it; remember the spectrum auctions that raised billions. It's your speakers that have to live with the licensed world, not the other way around.
The same is true for broadcast radio, TV, police, fire, ambulance, business radios, taxi dispatchers, amateur radio, military, and even foreign licensed broadcast systems. Your speakers have to live with it.
You might try (1) using twisted pair instead of zip line to your speakers and (2) using ferrite bead clamps, a few turns wrapped around both ends of the speaker cable. But it probably won't help, as it's likely your speakers internal amplifier is picking up the signals directly, as they're cheaply made (see TOA) and poorly shielded.
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Leighklotz is exactly right, but it gets even worse. Even a Part 15 device, using similar modulation to the GSM phone, could likely cause interference to your speakers. I have a DECT phone, compliant with FCC Part 15, sitting next to my computer speakers, and it creates a nice buzz when it's searching for the base. That's not the phone's fault, I'm sure they're transmitting all their energy in the allowed band, but nonetheless my speakers are rectifying that RF energy and amplifying the resulting envelop
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Your speakers have to live with it.
You might try (1) using twisted pair instead of zip line to your speakers and (2) using ferrite bead clamps, a few turns wrapped around both ends of the speaker cable. But it probably won't help, as it's likely your speakers internal amplifier is picking up the signals directly, as they're cheaply made (see TOA) and poorly shielded.
What will twisted pair do ? Doesn't twisted pair only protect against interference when you have a balanced line [wikipedia.org] with opposite voltages going down each wire?
Read this, page 2 [audiosystemsgroup.com]:
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I've wondered that in the past as well. I always assumed it depends on how you define "harmful."
It's not like cellphones cause pace makers to mis-fire, CPUs to make miscalculations, storage devices to become corrupt, etc. They emit a frequency that get's picked up (and played) by speakers.
If you classify harmful as "undesirable operation" then yes, it's harmful. But if "undesirable operation" is in a separate category as "harmful" then I guess it's a no harm / no foul as far as the legal-ese goes.
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Because transmitters, like the iPhone, and like every other cellphone, are held to a different standard.
Also, the "interference" is only harmful if you have a cheap, poorly shielded device. The signals that are causing the problem are fundamental to the operation of the GSM network. The sources of RF are more numerous now, including from cellphones and computers with lame lexan cases, but I wouldn't automatically call it interference.
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Part of the problem is that the speakers arent shielding their wires from the EMI properly and they're picking up your cell phone's transmissions and receptions as an antenna would.
If you put some ferrite beads on the wire to your speaker it kills the GSM buzz and such because it takes a slightly bigger signal (like that from your TV, Radio or Computer) to push through it as compared to the background noise from a cell phone being probed for activity pre-ring.
Metal foil wallpaper (Score:2)
Look for it to make a comeback. A room papered with the right stuff would be quite quiet RF wise. Velvet optional. :) Work well if you have a room you don't want stuff working in.
Not much you can do? (Score:2)
Not much you can do? You can always not buy an iPhone. My phone doesn't cause problem for speakers or my clock radio.
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Not much you can do? You can always not buy an iPhone. My phone doesn't cause problem for speakers or my clock radio.
Well, as the grandparent said, iPhones aren't the only ones that do it.
I've had cellphones that do it, and some that didn't appear to. Likewise I have some speakers that are immune to the problem while others (as well as my clock radio) suffer from it greatly.
It's not an iPhone issue but a frequency issue. GSM phones that use GPRS or Edge cause it which covers a LOT of phones. And the iPhone 3G defaults to GPRS when it has a low 3G signal.
There is a relatively easy fix for this (Score:3, Informative)
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i'll give it a try, thanks.
on the other hand i'd bought a little FM transmitter so i can listen to my itunes on my car radio. it has the same problem. can this be fixed also?
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Easy.
Maybe for home entertainment systems or car systems (I did this ages ago when I had a Nextel phone) but not so easy for integrated speaker apps.
Give me a break... (Score:2)
Ok, I hate apple's hype machine as much as anyone, but seriously... this isn't an iPhone thing. I have never seen ANY GSM phone that had power and did not interfere with PC speakers, speakerphones, and car radios.
Not on 3G, EDGE only (Score:5, Informative)
It seems to be AT&T more than anything... (Score:2)
As mentioned many times already, this has nothing to do with the iPhone and everything to do with GSM.
However, it seems AT&T are much worse. My personal phone is on T-Mobile and my work phone is on AT&T. The work phone produces much more interference. Switching the SIM from that into my phone, I get the same issue. I think AT&T must bump the transmit power to maximum on devices connected to their network. I wonder what this does to battery life!
Re:It seems to be AT&T more than anything... (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps the AT&T cellsite is further away from your location than the T-Mobile cellsite. Hence, your phone has to "talk louder" for the AT&T cell to hear it.
No cellular provider would intentionally instruct your cellphone to emit more power than required, because it would be self-defeating. Excess transmit power just means unnecessary interference to nearby cells on the same frequency. The cellular protocols provide a means for controlling the power of a handset up and down as needed to get "just the right amount" of RF energy at the cell tower's receiver.
Suck it up, clock radio owners (Score:2)
Your clock radio comes with the following government message:
This device complies with Part 15 of the FCC Rules....
(2) this device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesired operation.
It is not our place to question why we are not to reject interference, or what dangers might ensue if were to attempt such a thing. Rather, is our duty under the law to accept interference. So do your part, listen carefully to the buzzing radio, and just be proud to be doing your part as a citizen of this great land.
Motorola iDEN also (Score:2)
I bought a Motorola i670 on Sprint because I thought that Sprint was a CDMA carrier, but apparently they use some iDEN [wikipedia.org] handsets, which is very similar to GSM.
I get the "GSM sound" in my car radio, since I store the phone under the head unit.
you call out the iphone on this? (Score:2)
Every digital phone I've had from Bellsouth Mobility->Cingular->ATT has had the GSM NOISE.
It's not at ALL an iphone issue, and by naming the iPhone TFA becomes TROLL. I've had this with every Nokia, Motorola and Blackberry I've had in the last 10 years, or at least when the ATT group went GSM.
Guess what, tMobile is GSM too.
So well known, there's a dedicated website for it:
http://www.feelingcingular.com/ [feelingcingular.com]
Local TV news needs to read (Score:2)
What's happening in Europe? (Score:3, Interesting)
The US's Part 15 only applies to RF emitters; devices that don't emit RF at all, like audio amplifiers, don't need Part 15 certification. Part 15 doesn't say anything about sensitivity to interference.
The European Union, however, does regulate sensitivity to interference under the Electromagnetic Compatibility Directive. [conformance.co.uk] So the EU tries to address the problem.
The EU standards require a test for susceptibility to high power AM, FM, TV and airport-type radar signals. Those were viewed as the worst case when the directive was published. Electronics that's not designed for it is likely to crash when faced with a megawatt airport radar at a few hundred meters. (Remember, with most radars, the peak power is huge but the duty cycle is low.) But the EU directive doesn't address nearby TDMA sources. That's probably something the EU will have to address.
There's something to be said for spread-spectrum emitters, like WiFi and Sprint PCS phones. They have a broad enough output spectrum that they tend not to interfere with much.
Re:the cause could be put into the summary (Score:5, Insightful)
Or, in other words, a 217Hz signal is amplitude modulated onto the GSM signal. Some electronic devices (like amplifiers) incidentally demodulate the 217 Hz and convert that to sound. 217Hz is well within the human audible range, thus... dutuh, dutuh, dutuh, dutuh, dutzzzzzzzz.....
(since it's a 217 hz square wave you get lots of harmonics as well)
Re:the cause could be put into the summary (Score:5, Funny)
...and if you're really good you can tell the difference between a 2.5G location update, an incoming call, a GRPS attach/detach and 3G noises.
Yes, alright, 'Getting out a bit more' is on my plan, I just didn't get around to it yet.
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So the poster is correct. It is a 217Hz RF pulse with about 500uS pulse width.
Cell phones use an electric field antenna which produces a high near field electric field that decays at 1/r cubed, and a propagating electromagnetic field that decays at 1/r.
It is most likely the near field electric field (capacitively coupled) that is consequently demodulated by any non linear components in your speaker amplifiers as the PA (Power Amplifier) in the phone changes power level.
Even though the electronics industry i
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Yes, because when a device designed to convert electromagnetic waves into audio waves does, um, exactly what it's designed to do that's a sure sign that something terrible is happening.
And I don't know about you, but my body shares about 87% of the components of a typical audio system, so I expect more or less the same effect on my body as on my cheap audio system.
--
Seriously your speaker system is *supposed* to make electrical noise into audio noise. That's the definition of a speaker.
And unless your entir
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You don't quite understand the cause of the problem -- it's not that phones are transmitting on the wrong frequency or "splattering" the spectrum. It's that devices like unshielded speakers are prone to pick up interference like this from all across the spectrum, including the GSM bands.
Cell phone transmitters are much more heavily regulated than consumer electronics like clock radios.