The Mobile Internet You'll Be Using In 10 Years 137
mr sanjeev writes "After being plagued with project overruns and a scaling back of the final system, the US military's next-generation satellite communications network is another step closer to reality, with completion of the payload module for the third and final Advanced Extremely High Frequency (EHF) satellite ... If GPS and remote imaging (think Google Earth) have proven anything, it is that technology initially developed for military purposes, and extremely expensive for initial civil use, will eventually reach the point where it forms part of our daily lives without us ever being conscious of the massive investment to get to that point."
How's the speed? (Score:4, Interesting)
Obviously I didn't read TFA, but does anyone know about the possible speeds on these wireless links? As it stands, wifi is still (in practice) a lot slower and less reliable than even 100 mbit ethernet. It'd be pretty interesting if this new technology could offer reliable gigabit ethernet speeds (or better!) and similar reliability over reasonably long distances (similar to current wifi). But, my instincts tell me that that's just a pipe dream.
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Really, any new technology is good - we will weed out the bad ideas, keep the good. Ideally, we will take the best from each and mix it together, producing a superior solution to anything else.
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I realize how expensive this technology is every time I have to pay taxes.
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"without us ever being conscious of the massive investment to get to that point"
I guarantee you that the countries that were used as an excuse to wage war are very conscious of it too.
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Yes, most American's are quite well aware of what the War on Poverty has cost us.
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There, fixed that for you...
Re:How's the speed? (Score:4, Interesting)
Ten years, hunh?
I remember reading about the imminent introduction of wildly fast new 3G cellular phone technology...in 1999. In fact, it scared a lot of investors off of other, faster microcellular wireless WANs under development.
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Move to Europe - we have a choice of carriers all across europe who can offer this :)
Re:How's the speed? (Score:4, Insightful)
Apparently, you haven't been to Scandinavia or Ireland or even former Yugoslavia lately.
If you think the US is going to be able to look down on "third-world" countries much longer, you haven't been reading the papers.
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Oh, well, if it's in the papers then it MUST be true! :p
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If you're using 3G, you are using a microcellular WAN of sorts. Of course, it's not a peer-peer network, as previous high speed wireless data WANs have been.
Your little 3G dongle was going to "revolutionize the industry in 2-3 years" back in 1999, and that is (along with the most horrible marketing team in history and an executive team that was no better) one of the reasons that networks like Metricom's Ricochet (technology made right here in the USA,
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Obviously I didn't read TFA
Translated: FIRST POST!!!
Re:How's the speed? (Score:5, Informative)
More important, how's the latency? The RTT to a satellite in geosynchronous orbit is pretty high (especially considering that when requesting data, you have to double the RTT vs. streaming). The article doesn't seem to say if this is high-, low-, or medium-earth orbit.
Low earth orbit can get you RTT to the satellite of ~13 milliseconds at 2000 km, adding ~26 ms to the average page load, whereas a geosynchronous orbit could take ~240 milliseconds, adding ~480ms to a page load - quite a difference. Of course, these are optimal times, assuming the satellite is directly overhead.
That said, it does mention a constellation of three satellites, and there's no way that this could be practical with three satellites in a low- or even medium-earth orbit that I can see. Bandwidth is great, but latency is killer.
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Latency (Score:2)
Wont matter in 10 years, as all we will be able to afford to do is read a couple of emails and dream of the days before oppressive metered service that wasn't monitored for content.
Re:How's the speed? (Score:4, Informative)
8.2 Mbps to 4k terminals.
Advanced EHF is designed to provide 24 hour coverage from 65 North, to 65 South across the K and Ka sub bands, and when combined with the prototyped Extended Data Rate (XDR) terminals and systems, will offer up to 8.2 Mbps data rates for around 4,000 terminals in concurrent use per satellite footprint (whether that scales to 12,000 systems in concurrent use globally isn't clear from source material).
Compared to current satellite rates, this is pretty good. Additionally, this allows them to bounce satellite signals quickly and reliably around the globe before having to incurr the atmosphere penalty.
However, if you're looking for replacement for WiFi, a final 802.11N spec is only about 10 years off.
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MILSTAR and the follow on program AEHF are designed to provide secure, reliable, and protected communications. Bandwidth was not the main goal. Commercial geo satellites offer considerable more bandwidth, flexibility, and cost savings.
MILSTAR is a relic of the Cold War and has many shortcomings. It was designed to maintain military and key leadership communications in a ballistic missile (nukes) exchange with Russia. When the Cold War ended the program had to âoereinventâ itself many times ove
I have a question (Score:3, Funny)
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I don't think so, Tim.
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TIMMARHY!!!!!!
Oh, you mean the other one?
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No, you're thinking of AL GOREism.
Satellites=suck for communications (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Satellites=suck for communications (Score:5, Funny)
It would be much better to use a small fleet of high altitude autonomous drones with communications gear on board.
Or even better: giant balloons and a couple of routers. Plus a lot of cable.
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Or even better: giant balloons and a couple of routers. Plus a lot of cable.
Yes, but it'll have to be mil spec cable.
So really, we're back to Plan A, since it's cheaper to just loft a global network of communication satellites.
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It would be much better to use a small fleet of high altitude autonomous drones with communications gear on board.
Or even better: giant balloons and a couple of routers. Plus a lot of cable.
How about hippies in a tree?
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You joke, but John Sidgmore used to yammer on about balloons all the time. It's not necessarily a crazy idea.
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Re:Satellites=suck for communications (Score:4, Insightful)
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We are at the edge of the next generation of low cost communications brought to us by continuously flying drones flying between 10 and 20 miles up.
Weather permitting, of course.
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Drones (Score:4, Interesting)
For a price, obviously, because my privacy is worth trading for their profits.
Re:Drones (Score:5, Funny)
Dude, anyone in a plane can 'zero-in' on your house. It's essentially being broadcast. It's not a breach of privacy if someone sees your house; now, if they see something that you have a reasonable expectation of, such as your wife sunbathing in the nude... that's different, and sexy. But it probably won't happen.
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such as your wife sunbathing in the nude... that's different, and sexy. But it probably won't happen.
It definitely won't happen. He doesn't have a wife. He's on Slashdot.
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It definitely won't happen. He doesn't have a wife. He's on Slashdot.
Hey! That's not fair. I have a wife and am on slashdot. Which is to say i didn't get it for a long time now...
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"now, if they see something that you have a reasonable expectation of, such as your wife sunbathing in the nude... that's different, and sexy. "
I defend my privacy by sunbathing nude.
The last time a Black Helicopter came in visual range, it hauled ass away like it had spotted a flight of MiGs. They must have been overwhelmed by my "different, and sexy" tactic.
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Dude, anyone in a plane can 'zero-in' on your house. It's essentially being broadcast.
I know, right?
One of these days I need to stop painting "my house" on the roof.
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wow... just wow... and you don't need a wife to have kids! Just ask my ex-girlfriend! That bitch has no problem getting pregnant from any guy, as long as she's not dating him...
Huh? (Score:4, Insightful)
"Not conscious", my ass. Military investment makes up a very large part of our tax and trade burden, and many of us are conscious as hell of how much it costs. If the research did not eventually get into civilian hands, there would be hell to pay.
I am not saying it's not worth it... just that unlike the OP, I pay attention.
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Uh... most people don't think, when they turn on their in-car nav systems, "Gee, I'm glad my tax dollars went to pay for this system!"
Re:Huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
Uh... most people don't think, when they turn on their in-car nav systems, "Gee, I'm glad my tax dollars went to pay for this system!"
True, but they should. A lot of the bitching about "wasteful government spending" would go away if people realized how much government programs (like this little thing called ARPANet that made a splash a few years ago ...) lead to dramatic improvements in their everyday lives.
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Maybe people should realize that before they lead to "dramatic improvements in their everyday lives" that these military programs will lead to hundreds of thousands of dead people.
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However, without any advancements, we'd still have hordes of barbarians, which also leads to hundreds of thousands of dead people.
Without the tech, it's a much slower death too!
Definitely worth bearing in mind how much of the industrialisation we see in the world is purely a result of the first two world wars.
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Honestly, I think it's a matter of the political realities, and what the money is going for. Communication and transportation (including aerospace) spending is a lot easier to sell politically when it's defense-related, but if it's done right everyone benefits: commercial aviation, the interstate highway system, satellite communications, the internet, and GPS are all fine examples of this sort of spinoff. On the other hand, medicine and basic science do indeed tend to work better on the civilian side. (
Actually they didn't. (Score:2)
It's tough (Score:4, Interesting)
I worked in ARRL "10 GHz and up" contest last weekend, at 10 and 24 GHz, and those frequencies are not for beginners. The dish has to be pointed precisely to the source, with error within a couple of degrees. If the satellites are not geostationary then tracking would be a major problem, and I think they are not geostationary due to the distance involved.
Among other problems, microwave gear is very expensive, sensitive to abuse, and has low power output. Hams can deal with that, being happy with mere 100-200 mW at 10 GHz, but they don't mind chasing the signal as atmospheric conditions change during the day. It would be a lot of work to achieve a reliable link whenever you need it. Rain and fog are major problems in these bands. You basically have to throw power (and money) at the problem; if the military complains about "high cost" of these systems, they are surely not affordable yet to a common man. Considering that the economy just entered a tailspin, we may have bigger problems in coming years than fixing the mobile internet thing.
Re:It's tough (Score:4, Informative)
Satellite > Base Station > Your Mobile Device
That's how I imagine it would work. Honestly, do you really think that there are going to be thousands upon thousands of direct connections to the satellites? They would probably have to be sent through switches anyway, so so long as the base station's dish doesn't get tampered with it would work just fine.
10Ghz Space to Base Station, and a more stable protocol (Wireless N, 3G, etc.) to your mobile device.
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If that's how it is going to go, intuition seems to point towards the lowest cost per coverage still being fiber on the ground?
I would have thought the satellite solution is aimed at providing coverage to areas where the density of people on the ground is too low for base stations to make sense, which is where (certainly in the UK) we have the most problems at the moment.
We have a number of areas with no ADSL, and big mountains stopping the 2g/3g wireless networks where satellite could hopefully provide the
The Mobile Internet I'll Be Using In 10 Years (Score:2, Funny)
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"drafted" is a very PC term for being a POW now?
Thurn & Taxis APRP... (Score:1, Funny)
Anonymous Pigeon Relay Protocol...
Always interesting to follow. (Score:3, Insightful)
UK (Score:3, Interesting)
I would imagine that if you consider even the last 100 years, the UK come up trumps in terms of "provided more
fruit to the world than any other nation".
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I never thought you meant to bash others. Never attribute to
malice, that which can be explained by ignorance.
I thought we were talking about Govt funded research.
How is airplane & car govt funded research.
Other than that
1) Airplane
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stringfellow [wikipedia.org]
2) Cars
Far too many europeans made cars before the US did it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Trevithick [wikipedia.org] - steam powered locomotive
http://en.wi [wikipedia.org]
Jesus stop trying so hard (Score:1)
"How is airplane & car government funded research"
The US Air Force and CARB, that's how, and we were talking about research, not "firsts", nice try changing the goalposts.
Now, what's next? Well Fermi got his funding from the US Government, so his citizenship is irrelevant, since as you say, we were discussing government funding not place of birth.
Two people on your list aren't from and seemingly got nothing from the UK, so WTF?
Then there's Stringfellow, who got his funding privately and developed very
Yes! (Score:1)
"I would imagine...the UK comes up trumps..."
Yes, you would have to imagine that.
I kid I kid! (not really)
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Well, for starters, you don't seem to be doing so bad on that 1st amendment issue here on /.
and secondly, who exactly is stopping you from going out onto the street (or other less dangerous public place) and forming an assembly?
its been a while since I've seen american citizens being put in jail for loitering....
Police fight that every day (Score:2, Informative)
its been a while since I've seen american citizens being put in jail for loitering....
Then you're not looking very hard. More and more cities are passing increasingly punitive "anti-loitering" laws all the time. Mostly under the logic that they "clean up" downtowns and prevent panhandling.
As for people getting punished for public assembly, just go to Flickr and type in "RNC" and you'll find plenty of people, almost all non-violent and cooperative, fwiw, being stopped from public assembly.
So? (Score:1)
So, you mention the anti-loitering laws, but fail to mentio whether they work, and more importantly that the laws protect other citizen's rights, namely customers and property owners.
But who gives a fuck about the rights of people who are actually useful and productive, there are downtrodden residentially challenged citizens to protect! They should absolutely have the right to soil themselves in my doorway and run off my customers...
As to the "free speech zones", I'm so tired of this stupidity.
Did it ever
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http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/99433/incredible_documentary_footage_of_mass_arrest_in_st._paul/ [alternet.org]
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Wont take that long (Score:4, Interesting)
These days it seems all but the most classified tech makes it into market very, very quickly. In ten years, not only will this system be a reality, but the civilian market will have figured out how to squeeze even more out of it than the military figured.
A top Admiral in the Navy was lamenting how the Navy is having a problem selling itself as a cutting edge tech provider simply because any such new tech they get goes to the civilian sector so quickly, and further, civilian use eclipses military use. In particular, he used the Arleigh Burke class of destroyers as an example. When it was being designed in the 80's, it was absolutely cutting edge stuff. It's been in service just over 15 years, and now the Admiral lamented that a single Blackberry has more com bandwidth than an entire Burke destroyer.
Kind of hard to sell recruits on "cutting edge" when that's the case.
Re:Wont take that long (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Wont take that long (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Wont take that long (Score:4, Interesting)
I'd say it's a bit of both. To clarify and expand on my last post, I work for an MFP manufacturer (Konica Minolta). Our hardware (print engines/scanners/accessories) tends to have a much longer lifecycle, and you can still see design elements from 10 year old equipment in things we're releasing today (although only if you know what you're looking for). Many models will come out that are only a minor incremental change in hardware while being a huge change in the software/firmware (my side of it).
This pretty much means the same thing as far as those "upgrades" you're talking about on naval vessels (but again, a totally different scale of course). When I gave my "development process" explanation/presentation to the appropriate people in our company, they raised this exact point - how to handle it when the hardware just isn't capable of what we want these software improvements to do - they considered it to be basically a kind of solid limit where no amount of software would get around it. They were right to an extent, but only an extent. I explained to them that the system should be designed from a hardware perspective in the same sort of way as I proposed for software: Much more modular and with less "reliance" on the exact workings of other parts (as long as a common messaging system is understood by both ends, they don't need to know HOW the other end accomplishes its tasks).
Now, I will freely admit I don't know much about Naval Vessels and maybe this concept just wouldn't fit at all, but given the example of comms - everyone has known for a LONG time that comms improve at a rapid pace, they're high-tech. So, when designing a vessel, the comms system should never be so tightly integrated in to it that it's hard to upgrade - even the channels that carry the wires around the ship should be (relatively) easy to access and replace the cables should an upgrade require it. I'm not thinking that one should be able to "swap it all out just like that", but to plan to be able to do a complete comms refit in a matter of weeks with as minimal cost as possible. They KNOW they'll need to do it (as I mentioned, it's blatantly obvious that comms tech improves rapidly, and has been obvious for many decades already), so they should plan ahead for doing so.
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In ten years, not only will this system be a reality, but the civilian market will have figured out how to squeeze even more out of it than the military figured.
Of course, the US military is about 3 million people. The world's population is about 2 thousand times that. Once a technology makes its way into a base that large, of course it will advance more rapidly.
"A top Admiral in the Navy was lamenting how the Navy is having a problem selling itself as a cutting edge tech provider..."
Cutting edge tech fre
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Yeah, but an EMP kills the blackberry. And you have to compare it to civilian boats, not civilian cellphones. It's cheaper to replace one than the other.
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> These days it seems all but the most classified tech makes it into market very, very quickly.
No, you didn't got it right. The article meant that, in 10 years, everybody will be enrolled in the military due to the global draft to fight in the war after the economic collapse...
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GlobalSecurity has a list of communications systems that the Arleigh Burke class of destroyers have. [globalsecurity.org]
# LF through HF Receive,10 kHz - 30 MHz
R-1051 H/URR; twelve receivers
R-2368 H/URR; three receivers
# HF Transmit; 2-30 MHz
AN/URT-23D; nine transmitters
# VHF Transmit and Receive, 30-162 MHz
AN/GRR-211; two transceivers for non-secure voice
ANNRC-46A; two FM transceivers for secure voice
AN/URC-80 (V)6; one transceiver for bridge-to-bridge communications
# UHF Transmit and Receive, 220-400 MHz
AN/URC-93 (V)1; two
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
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Greetings,
My name is Adeola Hussein, son of former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein. I have come into the possetion of 10 North Korean Taepodong 2 ICBMs and I need your help transferring them from a warehouse in Syria to a third country.
I have been informed you were a trustworthy fellow.
In return for your help you will collect a commision of 1 Taepodong 2 missile.
I look forward to doing business with you.
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I'd love to help you but there's no space in the garage for a Taepodong 2 launch assembly :(
Internet in Jail (Score:5, Funny)
I thought the Internet I'll be using in 10 years will be called the RIAA distribution network and that I'd be using it from a jail cell because I once hummed "Happy Birthday" at a children's birthday party sometime in the 90s without paying the piper.
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You forgot to use the TM or R symbol in your post regarding "Happy Birthday". Up against the car and spread your legs punk!
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You may have been modded as funny, but don't be surprised if in 10 years the RIAA/MPAA own the commercial internet.
They own pieces of the entry points now via companies like timewarner..
How is the radiation, will cook an eeg? (Score:1)
Extremely High Frequency
I'm usually not paranoid about radio radiation... But extremely high frequency from a satelite?
:)
Also, I've got to comment this thing... I'm sorry can't hold it back...
If GPS and remote imaging (think Google Earth) have proven anything, it is that technology initially developed for military purposes, and extremely expensive for initial civil use, will eventually reach the point where it forms part of our daily lives without us ever being conscious of the massive investment to get to that point.
I don't think that means that the technology could not have been developed without the military... It's just because you Americans have a problem subsidizing general purpose technology if it doesn't have a military purpose...
Ridicolus (Score:5, Funny)
Still waiting for Ludicrously High Frequency.... Seriously..
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Well, EHF is up to 0.3 THz (1 mm wavelength). Long-distance fiber links already use 1.5 micron wavelengths (200 THz); it is called infrared and it is already widely used for communication.
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I don't buy the GPS analogy (Score:2, Informative)
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If GPS and remote imaging (think Google Earth) have proven anything, it is that technology initially developed for military purposes, and extremely expensive for initial civil use, will eventually reach the point where it forms part of our daily lives without us ever being conscious of the massive investment to get to that point.
If the massive investment has to keep on happening in relation to the number of users, then we probably will be aware of it because we'll be paying for it in a monthly fee and companies will have bidding wars for their slice of the bandwidth.
Screw mobile internet, i want my flying car (Score:3, Funny)
Screw the predictors' predictions.
10 years from now...20 years from now... blah, blah...
WHERE THE FUCK is my Flying car promised to me 50 years ago???
Bring that first, and we will talk about stupid mobile internet...
As if enough AOL morons don't exist already...
The predictors should be drafted and send to Iraq: they can get to experience mobile artillery very much...
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Do you see that smoking crater over there?
Here's the keys... Enjoy!
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At least, the remains of a few.
Massive investment (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, and that's also the reason why there should be a space program. Sadly though, many people nowadays don't see it that way. They think that reaching for the stars is "impractical" when we have so many problems here at ground level. But money spent this way, even in military endeavors, is *never* wasted. Eventually it reaches everyone in some way or another.
Like... TANG!
(just kidding)
Forget 10 years, we have better systems NOW. (Score:3, Insightful)
The EHF satellites are great for what they've been designed to do, deliver bandwidth to 10,000's users over a large area of the earth, but that isn't what most consumers need.
They need things that will work in urban canyons and can cope with 10,000's of users within a few square miles. This is much better served by local radio masts than satellite systems.
The future of mobile internet is 3G and WiMAX and its rivals, and its already here.
Never aware? (Score:2)
You must be rich, us middle-class are very aware of how much it costs every time we pay taxes...
When I saw the headline, I thought... (Score:1)
http://www.grooveking.com/blog/uploaded_images/g-738997.jpg [grooveking.com]
Wow! Fortune Tellers! (Score:1)
Silly reporter, satelllites are for soldiers (Score:1)
However, for most commercial uses, it's just silly: even if it were just being used as backhaul for base stations, the requirement for directional antennas alone means that it's way more expensive and less reliable than conventional alternatives, and bandwidth to satellites can't help but be vastly more expensive than terrestrial connections, either w
Not the internet of tomorrow (Score:2, Informative)
EHF communications is NOT the mobile internet of tomorrow. In fact AEHF won't even be the military's SATCOM system of choice when bandwidth is the primary requirement. They're generally going to turn to WGS (http://www.afspc.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=5582) or even more likely, commercial SATCOM because that's where the REAL bandwidth is.
Don't get me wrong EHF SATCOM does what's it designed to do very well. It's protected. The narrow beam widths on uplink and downlink provide low probabi
Costs? (Score:2)
I am too cheap to pay $30/mo for mobile internet on my phone. A service beamed from OUTER SPACE doesn't sound like it is going to be a bargain.
The mobile internet that I am using in 10 years will be cheap, or I will be relying on unicorn-rare wlan hot spots as I do today.
It's not scalable, therefore no mass usage (Score:1)