Canadian Firms Get Behind OpenMoko/FreeRunner 140
mario writes "Now that the OpenMoko platform has stabilized enough to provide the OM2008 image (supporting the three major toolkits), things are starting to heat up. Linuxdevices is reporting on the start of a port of Devicescape's connect application. Koolu (another Canadian company) is also doing development for its W.E. phone (a branded FreeRunner). Which leads me to ask: Where are the American companies?"
"Where are the American companies?" (Score:5, Interesting)
Investing their money in Washington crafting laws and developing new business models.
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Re:"Where are the American companies?" (Score:4, Funny)
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Last time I checked the map Canada was a country on the American continent. In North America, right next to the USA, to be more precise... but what do I know.
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It's also called "denial." :-P
Boring (Score:4, Funny)
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Ted Rogers is that you?
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Cellphones and America (Score:2, Interesting)
Hmm, from what I've noticed, most cell phone companies are not based in the US. Europe and Asia constitute most of them.
Anyyway, I'm really excited about this as much as I'm frustrated about the number of SDKs to pick up, Symbian, Windows Mobile, now iPhone SDK.. Google's Android and then this!
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It should be noted that this has been around longer than the iPhone/SDK as well as Google Android. The OpenMoko project was announced [openmoko.org] January 20th, 2007.
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GNU Hurd was announced years before Linux, and look how far that project got.
In computing what counts is shipping / release date.
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In computing what counts is shipping / release date.
Exactly, take Duke Nukem Forever for example.
This is a very good thing (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is a very good thing (Score:4, Informative)
No camera.
Re:This is a very good thing (Score:5, Insightful)
I consider that a plus. If I want to take pictures of something, I'm gonna bring a good camera with me.
Re:This is a very good thing (Score:5, Insightful)
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Can openmoko support both models of phone, one with a cam, the other without?
Most likely
Will both models be offered
Unlikely, business decision will likely nix one
Your need of having the cam with you will most likely overrule the desire of those that want a cheaper phone that does whatever it does, 100%.
It's regrettable, and I'm already offtopic anyways, since the choice you're not being offered has nothing to do with openmoko.
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Your need of having the cam with you will most likely overrule the desire of those that want a cheaper phone
But will it overrule the desire of those that want a smaller phone, or one with a larger battery, or one with a cleaner design?
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Heh, well, for me none is better than the highest quality. Or anything in between. I have no particular need for a camera and no particular desire to pay for one (be it in $, g or mL) I won't use.
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... no particular desire to pay for one (be it in $, g or mL)...
you can pay for phones with blood now?
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What!? I was thinking more along the lines of millilitres measure volume i.e. three-dimensional space. Having a camera in my phone makes my phone just that much larger. Really going straight from mL -> blood is just weird and confusing. If you were here in person and realised I was making a joke I would question your sanity.
Re:This is a very good thing (Score:4, Informative)
The Neo1973's mini-USB port can be configured to act as a usb host instead of a usb device. This opens up a range of possibilities, such as USB cameras and usb input devices.
Thats for the Neo1973 but it should also be true for the FreeRunner.
Uploading images from your camera (Score:2, Interesting)
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Who is forcing you to use the camera? Nobody. If you don't like the camera, just don't use it. It's that simple.
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Yes, but a camera costs money. Ditch the camera and make phones cheaper. I'd rather have have a phone good at calling and SMSing than a jack of all trades machine that fails at everything.
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Yes, but a camera costs money. Ditch the camera and make phones cheaper. I'd rather have have a phone good at calling and SMSing than a jack of all trades machine that fails at everything.
You know... people said the same thing about SMS when it came out... "I just want a phone that makes calls, not one that sends text messages!"
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Being able to SMS doesn't add a lot to the price, having a useful camera does. ;)
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I must respectfully disagree.
Creating two separate product lines is quite a bit more expensive than one; that added expense will be passed on to the customer. Other manufacturers will create a single line, and not have extra expenses and thus be more competitive.
So, after doing the competitive analysis, most manufacturers will decide to make phones with cameras, which some people may use.
Me, I never use the popcorn button on
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Creating two separate product lines is quite a bit more expensive than one;
You're only counting the production cost. A camera in a cellphone is not 'free' in various design issues such as available space and layout complexity. Not only can you produce a cheaper phone without a camera, you can also produce a smaller one and/or have space for a larger battery, or make it thinner, etc. You catch the customer who wants the camera, but you lose the ones who'd want the alternative features more.
Personally I have
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Myself I use it when I need a quick picture for a project
Yah, I keep trying to use if for things like that myself. Taking pictures off serial numbers on servers (didn't work, the cam cant focus close enough to make out the text), disassembly pictures to know how to put stuff back together (again, focus/detail conflict), snapping shots of stuff at parties (doesn't work, not enough lighting), etc. It seems one has to carry around an industrial lighting and power supply to actually provide the conditions under
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There are plenty of phones to be had that can do all three. And do camera-less versions of a phone really cost less? I found one article on a camera-less Treo 680 that makes no mention of a price cut. Of course not; they're going to keep the cost difference for themselves. So you may as well have a camera handy for when something unexpected happens -- I know I've gotten some amusing shots with my phone's camera that I would have otherwise missed.
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So you may as well have a camera handy for when something unexpected happens -- I know I've gotten some amusing shots with my phone's camera that I would have otherwise missed.
I have never seen ANY phone camera useful for anything unexpected. it takes forever to get to the damned camera app, launch it, wait for the camera to stabilize, take photo.... oh damn that unexpected event is already gone.
$3.99 disposable point and shoot in my pocket? pull out, click, i'm done.
NO DIGITAL photo format or camera on t
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Sony Ericsson K810. Flip the lens cover on the back and shoot.
http://www.sonyericsson.com/cyber-shot/ [sonyericsson.com]
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I can pull my point and shoot out from my pocket and snap a photo in under 1 second, 2 if I forgot to wind the film.
If that phone can do it in that time INCLUDING the time it takes removing it from your pocket... That's an impressive camera let alone phone.
Most digital SLR's cant take a photo 1 second from power on, and that's with it already in your hands.. (the fault of having to focus, etc...)
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And then you have to send it out for processing, wait for it to come back, etc. etc. No thanks. Turns into an $8 or $10 camera, too. Digital, it's paid for already.
And you missed the point of "having a camera with you at ALL times, since there are times when you won't have a camera with you" since by definition that covers times when you didn't bring it with you, or it's in your car and you aren't, or whatever.
Besides, in my experience those $4 disposables take even crappier pictures than even cellphones do
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Why would I pay for something that I'm not planing to use, since even my pocket digicam shoots superior pics?
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See my comment elsewhere in which I looked at camera-less equivalents of given phones that don't seem to cost less than their camera-equipped versions. Why would you pay the same to get less? That makes even less sense.
I have two cameras (a point and shoot and a full pro DSLR) but a lot of the photos on my phone, which has a pretty decent (for a phone) camera, were captured at times when I never thought I'd see something interesting that I'd want to shoot.
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Is it just me, or is it really a fallacy?
The fact that camera-less versions of a phone do not cost less does not mean they do not cost less to make. It just means that someone along the chain decided to keep the difference in cost.
If it had a camera, FreeRunner would have cost more. Quite a bit more, in fact.
IIRC they even tried to find a suitably free/open camera hardware, but only got a really poor camera, so they decided against it. And it is a good choice: the phone would have been noticeably more exp
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Yes, I realize that they don't cost the same to make. But when the cost is the same to the end user, what does it matter? One option is "you get more for less" and if there's no cost difference to the end user, why select that one?
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Yes, I realize that they don't cost the same to make. But when the cost is the same to the end user, what does it matter?
It matters, because if the cost were the same, it would be the cost of the more expensive device. So the FreeRunner would cost twice as much.
I'd thought this was a geek site, where a humanities guy like me would be one of the worst in maths. Guess I was wrong.
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You're still not getting what I'm angling at, and insulting my skills is totally uncalled for just because you don't like and/or don't get what I'm saying.
I'm not talking about mythical camera-ified versions of a half-baked phone (where did you get the idea that I was talking about a mythical OpenMoko camera phone? I never said that; you inserted that all on your own). In fact, my example was a phone made by a totally different company that has been making smart phones for a very long time, not the half-bak
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Oh, I'm sorry, it's just that:
Now, if you wanted to respond just to a little part of my post, you should have quoted that part; otherwise I was quite justified to think you were respnding to the whole. And excuse me for discussing the topic. I know it is bad manners fo
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If you don't like the camera, just don't use it. It's that simple.
No, it's not that simple. I have my second phone with a camera, and my wife is still on her first. All three that we've had have had similar misbehavior: The cameras get turned on "automatically" when the phone is in my pocket (or her purse). We get lots of pictures of the inside of my pocket (and her purse). This really runs down the batter quickly. When I ask around, it seems that nearly everyone with a camera in their phone has this
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I've never had my phone accidentally take a picture when I didn't want it to, but then I always set it up so that accidentally pressing one of the buttons couldn't take a photo or do anything else undesired. And the presence of something isn't going to run down the battery unless you use it excessively. I don't think it's fair to blame the feature of the phone for draining the battery with what you admit is excessive use, even if it is accidental -- figure out why it's happening and change whatever you need
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Well, I guess I must be pretty unskilled. I just can't find out how to make my cell phone's camera focus. Do you know where they hid the focus control? TFM doesn't seem to mention it, and if I google for either of our cameras' model names and "focus", I don't seem to find anything relevant. But if you can make them take pics that are in focus, there must be a way.
Now maybe you prefer that "soft focus" effec
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True, focus often sucks. A tip: autofocus is sometimes based on contrast so look for high-contrast areas to place in your photo, if possible. Some AF algorithms also lock more easily onto vertical lines, like the bars of a fence. Also, there is a minimum focus distance with nearly all lenses -- perhaps you're too close? I've gotten lousy images due to that before.
Not saying phone cameras are perfect -- just useful in a pinch.
Re:This is a very good thing (Score:4, Insightful)
The first few releases of Linux sucked too. However, just like Linux, once people start using it for their own purposes, their improvements will make their way back for others to use.
OpenMoko right now is mediocre. OpenMoko in 5 years, after several companies sell products based on it, and dozens of hackers make those devices do new and novel things, and OpenMoko will rock.
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What got my hopes upwas the announcement of official debian support.
I'm sure that the openmoko guys are doing a great job, but they haven't produced anything stable and usable yet by all accounts.
Suddenly, with debian support, you have a software distribution that supports, and makes available, pretty much all of the hardware. Plus it's debian, a big, stable software base with a lo of guys working on it. That's what'sgoing on my freerunner as soon as I get a moment.
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That describes a lot of open-source in general...
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Heh. With only a slight rewording, it also applies to most commercial, proprietary stuff:
No sooner do the devs get something just about working before they find that the marketers have been selling it and delivering it in its incomplete state, complete with promises that it'll do all sorts of things that the devs have never heard about.
Wh
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that describes a lot of the entire world.
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We geeks are known for having short attention spans it doesn't take much to...oh look, shiny.
American companies (Score:2, Insightful)
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T-Mobile is a German company.
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probably because they can lock them down more...
Android (Score:2, Interesting)
I think the american companies have put their efforts behind Google...
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But 2008.08 is broken (Score:1)
Now that the OpenMoko platform has stabilized enough to provide the OM2008 image
Except that 2008.08 doesn't actually work... it's pretty much alpha quality. (And yes there's workarounds but really... they called this a release?)
Working on other things than immature phones (Score:4, Informative)
The OpenMoko project has been around for a long time but it's been development only and unusable for the end user. US cellphone companies want to be able to sell something to end users now. They don't want an unfinished piece of junk that they don't know anything about -- they want their existing suppliers to give them USABLE phones.
Once this thing becomes polished and usable, at least as polished and usable as cell phones get, then we might see some interest.
No we won't. (Score:5, Insightful)
American carriers are not only completely uninterested in a platform that gives the end-user complete control over their phone, but actively shunning it. Their business model is to sell slick-looking, crippled devices that push as much functionality through their networks as possible such that they can charge the end-user as much as they can for things that should be free. Verizon and the V710 debacle a few years ago come directly to mind (disabling OBEX, etc.).
I'll be shocked if we ever see a viable OpenMoko device in the next ten years.
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Do you mean period or from an existing carrier? If it's sold unlocked there's nothing the GSM carriers at least can do to block it from being used on their networks.
They're blocking it right now. (Score:4, Interesting)
Carriers are exerting pressure on baseband manufacturers to ensure that they do not open specifications required to get open-source software to work with advanced basebands that work with EDGE, EvDO, or HS*PA. So all you get is plain GPRS and voice, on the one baseband that was available to be used with the FreeRunner.
Don't expect this to change anytime soon. It won't. If necessary, the carriers will exert pressure on Congress to pass a law banning open source operating systems on cellular devices in the name of "security."
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Then why is it you can buy unlocked phones right now that have 3G?
Unlocked phones (Score:2)
Those are still limited by their operating systems. What open Linux-based phones that have 3G exist?
(Hint: There aren't any.)
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What open Linux-based phones that are actually usable exist, period? I don't think there ARE any, and openmoko doesn't count as it's hardly exactly usable.
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[Citation needed]
I would guess that it is more an issue of baseband chip manufacturers not wanting to provide open documentation.
Shunning? You forget Andriod. (Score:4, Insightful)
American carriers are not only completely uninterested in a platform that gives the end-user complete control over their phone, but actively shunning it
Android answers the description you provide, and there seem to be a number of carriers embracing it.
They are driven to do so by the iPhone but that makes little difference in that things are moving that way, and carriers realize now that it will happen sooner rather than later.
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Unlikely (Score:2)
An open-source OS does not mean the end-user can do what they want.
Even with a closed source OS (iPhone) users can do as they like (Jailbreak).
The ease of developing for an open source OS is even greater, since the official SDK grants you a view to the lowest levels of operation and makes it that much easier to change what you like.
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and have the apple staff refuse to look at the device because its jailbroken, what fun.
thing is that the way android is designed, its much how osx is designed.
sure you have a open source kernel and base libs, but everything else above that is at least somewhat proprietary.
android has its own java variation for instance.
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and have the apple staff refuse to look at the device because its jailbroken, what fun.
It's called "restoring the device". Which is something you'd try to do first anyway, and you wouldn't take anything in for repair without backing it up, right?
thing is that the way android is designed, its much how osx is designed.
Not at all. Android has the entire system from the ground up exposed, while Apple is more careful to keep apps within a specific API that exposes some aspects of the system at all levels, but
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Otherwise, there would be open source VOIP apps that would run over the carriers' networks. They will not allow that.
No, they would love that, but only an idiot would use it.
You seem to be unaware of the fact that with US carriers voice calls are effectively free, while data is metered at exorbitant rates. For example, SMS messages cost $0.10-0.15 each if you don't buy a texting plan.
On the other hand, a way to disguise data transmission as a voice call might be interesting (IPOV?).
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You do realize you're talking about an unreleased system that will be put on unreleased phones? It's awfully early to draw a conclusion about who will and won't support it, and besides, if you really want one you can buy and activate it yourself.
People don't buy unlocked phones because they don't KNOW about them because the phone makers don't do a very good job advertising them. If that changed and it wasn't the service providers running the ads (which are naturally for their own versions) then people might
Last time I checked... (Score:1, Funny)
.. Canada was still in America.
A few Canadian thoughts... (Score:5, Insightful)
After looking at the Koolu.com website, I'd almost rather they not be referred to as Canadian... it makes us look bad...
So some Canadian firms think that an open-source handset is going to be worthwhile. Great, good for them. The likelihood is that even if they do get anywhere with it, the majority of their clients are going to be in the US anyway. The average person in Canada doesn't know or care about open-source handsets, and isn't going to care enough to learn.
It's kind of like RIM - they were the first to really get mobile, business e-mail out into the world, and now they're famous. Everyone who doesn't have an iPhone has a blackberry these days, and most of RIM's clients are in the US. Where were the American companies? What does it matter?
In this era of free trade and globalization, there's hardly any distinction between American companies and Canadian companies. I work for a Canadian company which is owned by an American company which is run by the Canadian company. We're traded on an American stock exchange, we all work in Canada, and we just bought an American company made up almost entirely of Brits and Irish. So what does that make us?
'Canadian company' these days only refers to locality - where people show up for work at every morning. Beyond that, it doesn't make a difference.
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Subjects to the Queen?
You make no sense. (Score:3)
She exerts no power over us at all, why rebel against her? Figure out what you're talking about for fuck sakes.
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"The average person in Canada doesn't know or care about open-source handsets, and isn't going to care enough to learn."
Ok, but I DO CARE!!! I just bought an Open Moko Phone during the recent iPhone controversy in Canada. I also just got an iPhone when it turned out that Fido would give it to me for FREE since I had enough Fido Dollars (whatever those are, didn't even know I had them) to pay for it fully and beyond. Ok, now the Open Moko is a brick just like my iPhone today (iPhone crashed, Open Moko has be
The company is Canadian. (Score:2)
In this era of extranational interference, there's hardly any distinction between American companies and Canadian companies.
Just follow the money up the top, ignoring the "holier-than-thou" shareholder class (voting, not mutual fund). You will find that they are Canadian with a desire to end-run business law.
Where were the American companies? What does it matter?
Quality and jurisdictional accountability, perhaps. Think of that next time when a knockoff product breaks too easily. Think of it when you get mindless tech support and shoddy code.
It does make a difference.
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The average person in Canada doesn't know or care about open-source handsets, and isn't going to care enough to learn.
And the average person in the US does?
- RG>
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Can't speak for Canadians myself, but I know a few non techy Apple fans that won't buy the iPhone because it is too locked down, they don't feel confident to crack it themselves and they are sick of otherwise good phones being rendered shitty by rude business practices. These are die hard Apple fans who don't know or care what open source is - computers work because plug them in and turn the
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The thing I find odd about these people who complain about things like the system being 'locked down' is that in my experience, the iPhone is, in practice, no more locked down than any other smartphone.
You can't install homebrew apps on it, but then most people never do that anyway. You can't put another OS on it, but again, no one does that. You can only use it on AT&T - ok, I can respect that people have reasons not to be on AT&T.
In comparison to other smartphones and PDAs I've used, the iPhone be
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We're in a group that plays music and we often share files at rehearsal via bluetooth so we can get to know them. The one guy that has an iPhone is left out of that one. All the Nokias, Motorolas and Sony Ericssons are happy to exchange and play mp3s, iPhone isn't.
Anything that is done over a network has to be done through Telstra and just about every application involves using the network. My current phone pretends to be a flash drive and lets me read/write whatever I want over usb. Would an iPhone? My cur
Love the concept but too bad about the Glamo gpu (Score:3, Interesting)
This is mainly from the viewpoint of a graphics programmer (3d, gpu drivers, ...), so my comments will focus on that part. I know there are a lot good features on this devices.
The Glamo chip can only use textures of 512 x 512 so it's impossible to use hw acceleration to decompress full screen video (unless you stretch the texture to the entire screen).
The video bus bandwidth is 7m/s which gives a theoretical maximum of 12 fps without hw acceleration. That bus is also shared with the sd card reducing the bandwidth even further if you are accessing the sd card.
SMedia refuses to give out the documentation of their gpu and only employees of OpenMoko have access to that documentation. Implementing 3D for the glamo is low priority. It's obvious it's low priority but it's a shame there's a gpu in there but you can't use it or even improve the driver.
Re:Love the concept but too bad about the Glamo gp (Score:1)
The video bus bandwidth is 7m/s
Okay, and how long is the bus?
Canadians are Americans!... (Score:1)
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In the same way that french, english, italians etc... are Europeens.
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Canadians (and Mexicans) are North Americans in the same way that that French, English, Italians, etc are Europeans. But Canadians are only Americans to the same extent that French, English, Italians, etc are Eurasians.
I've decided that the next time someone from a European country smugly points out that I am an "American" because I'm from "the Americas" or "the American continent" (which assumes that I am obscenely geographically ignorant
I am going to get modded down for this (Score:2)
I remember reading about the OpenMoko long before the iPhone, and the day the final spec where out I when and bought an Iphone why, no 3G or EDGE
Apple leave 3G out of the first gen iPhone and they get crucified, but this phone has no 3G or EDGE and it is OK because it is open source? WTF!
I would love an open phone. But you have to be the first one to the market with mobile's because of those 18 month contracts. Why do I have to wait two years for them to catch up with other company's who have stuff already
If AT&T/T-Mobile could ban OpenMoko, they woul (Score:2, Insightful)
If AT&T and T-Mobile could legally and technically ban use of OpenMoko phones on their network, they would do it.
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if they could legally ban unlocked phones on their network they would do it. In fact most of their retarded phone workers think this already when I call up for a new sim to add to my plan...
ME: I need a sim to add to my contract.
THEM: SIM why? has your old one stopped?
ME: NO I'm adding a new line to my contract and I need a sim.
THEM: Then you need a phone as well, we have several to choose from....
ME: NO, I need the sim I already have a phone.
THEM: You haveto have an AT&T phone to work on our network.
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Dialing from the command line. (Score:5, Funny)
At last, a phone from Linux fanatics! You can dial from the command line. [togaware.com] Just type:
echo 0 >
echo 1 >
cu -l
AT+CFUN=1
AT+CPIN="<pin>"
AT+COPS
ATD<number>
You are now connected. See how easy it is!
Where are the American companies? (Score:2)