New Service Maps Speed Traps By Cell Phone 404
esocid writes "In a modern equivalent of flashing your headlights to warn other motorists of police speed traps, you can now warn fellow drivers with a cell phone or personal digital assistant about speed traps, red-light cameras, and other threats to ticket-free driving. And as you approach a known threat, you'll get an audio alert on your mobile device. The developer of Trapster, Pete Tenereillo, said the system, which requires punching in a few keys such as '#1' to submit information to Trapster's database, should comply with laws banning talking on cell phones. The free service can automatically detect location using mobile devices' GPS capabilities or tap their Wi-Fi and get location from a database run by Skyhook Wireless. Police officials that Tenereillo has talked to haven't complained about the service because it inevitably encourages drivers to slow down."
That's a violation (Score:4, Funny)
Re:That's a violation (Score:5, Insightful)
In addition, with speeders allowing their locations to be tracked, that database also documents their speeding. A juicy target if the speeder is involved in a collision and the victim(s) want another way to establish reckless driving.
Or, it's just a useful target anyway to document and prosecute speeders. Most subscribers will no doubt be speeders, so as the police state becomes stronger, look for your now well-documented past to come back to haunt you.
And what happens to all of that data if there is a security breach at the company and someone exfiltrates all of the records. Most probably wouldn't care, but the higher your profile, the more you could expect to see your actions published in the open for all to see.
No thanks. I'll just keep my radar detector.
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I can easily imagine a courtroom scene where highway speed tests, speeding in residential areas, speeding in school zones, and pretty much anything of value would be paraded in front of a jury.
It might also persuade a judge to lock some people up for quite a long time, or impose much harsher punishments on people when they get busted.
This database will work both ways. I guarantee it.
Re:That's a violation (Score:4, Insightful)
And if you don't think that happens, go read how the Bush administration decided the Fourth Amendment did not apply to them and they could wiretap and eavesdrop all they wanted. http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/03/1219200 [slashdot.org]
And if you don't know what the Fourth Amendment guarantees (or did until Bush decided to ignore it...):
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
RDD-D (Score:5, Interesting)
They only detect the cheap radar detectors. There has been an electronic warfare in the civilian world with radar detectors (RDs) and radar detector detectors (RDDs). Moderate priced RDs have had RDD detection capability for awhile and will go into a stealth mode, temporarily disabling their main oscillator.
And of course, you have the professional level such as the Beltronics STi Driver or the Valentine 1 [valentine1.com] which have been hardened to prevent RF emissions detected by RDDs...
Re:RDD-D (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, the Specter is used in Virginia and DC. Rumor has it that Texas DPS uses it to time when to turn their radar on. They let all speeders go by, and when they detect a detector, they light you up and pull you over. Of course this tactic is not common, but it is very scary for speeders like myself.
RDD's are mainly used for Commercial Vehicle Enforcement (No big commercial trucks are allowed to use RD's)
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Look, you're talking to a group of asshats who are too damned lazy to watch the speed limit or get up in time for work so they mustn't violate said speed limit
Hey, I've seen my fair share of asshats on the road but I don't think speeding automatically qualifies you as one.
In many areas the speed limits are artificially low and/or the flow of traffic precludes obeying the speed limit unless you enjoy people closing on you at 15-20mph and flipping you off as they pass.....
Why complain? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Unanticipated Use (Score:3, Interesting)
Indeed. This could become the system of choice for the subset of people who need to know exactly where the police are running 'john' stings, drug sweeps, or just parked in a neighborhood.
I wonder what effect that could have?
Re:Unanticipated Use (Score:5, Interesting)
The purpose of a police force isn't to bust people, it's to prevent crime. We keep forgetting this. If that goal can be achieved without someone going to jail and getting sucked into a system designed to keep them in it, I'm all for it (especially given the non-violent crimes you cite for example).
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Re:Why complain? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why complain? (Score:4, Insightful)
Uhh, it is sometimes. I do my fair share of speeding, but I'm open minded enough to assume that the police officer sitting outside the school zone at 7:30AM isn't primarily interested in revenue collection.....
Re:Why complain? (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh, c'mon! You'll brook no argument from me on highway speeds being artificially low, but school zones? If you can't stand to slow down for the 30 seconds it takes to drive through a school zone then I don't really have much pity for you if you get ticketed.
Likewise, I have zero fucking sympathy for somebody that goes around a school bus with flashing lights.
So (Score:4, Funny)
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I want a site that lets me coordinate with others to piss these types off, say, by getting together
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Why dont you just focus on your own driving for a change and worry about driving to your destination? That would be a pretty shallow way to live, thinking that somehow YOU have the say in how other people can drive just because you want to. In the state I live in, doing what you just suggested has a name. Its called BREAKING THE LAW.
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Why don't you post the relevant law that states that driving the speed limit in a passing lane is illegal? I'd really love to see that one... I don't seem to recall reading in any drivers manual that one must drive over the speed limit in a "passing lane" or one is breaking the law. Passing lanes are there for people who are driving the speed limit who wish to pass other people in the middle or right hand lanes that are driving slower than the speed limit. Cheers!
Your wish is my command [mit.edu]
I can't really be bothered to list any more sources, but they exist if you're so inclined.
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okay...
"but I usually drive 10-20 over the speed limit."
I think the people who are driving the speed limit, or slightly over, and you are closing up on at 20mph over the speed limit might disagree a bit with the "defensive" part there. If I drive 5 over the speed limit and somebody's popping up in my rear view mirror and getting noticeably closer with every glance, I'd consider you aggressive.
"Just once I would love to see a cop ticket the assholes who dr
That's exactly what a selfish driver would say. (Score:5, Insightful)
Am I better than other drivers? Perhaps, it depends on what you mean by better. What I am is a safe and courteous driver.
Re:That's exactly what a selfish driver would say. (Score:3, Insightful)
I see driving as requiring three different skill sets. Car handling skills, simply how well can you handle a car. Spatial awareness, reaction time, etc. Information processing skill, knowing how to read traffic. The last skill is attitude and it may be the most important of the three. I don't care how great your skills are in the first two skills if you have a crappy attitude you will never be more than a crappy driver. A good attitude will make u
Re:That's exactly what a selfish driver would say. (Score:4, Interesting)
400 hours of extra work at $50 per hour = $20,000. (for simplicity, I count 1 hour of my leisure time lost equal to the cost of 1 hour work).
I paid, let us say, about $1000 in speeding tickets over that period of time.
$20,000 vs $1,000. Make your decisions.
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A gold star may not count for much, but the insurance discount sure does.
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No, it makes you a 206-RAT-FINK. If you want to be a hero, just dial 911 to make a cop come.
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People like you are the reason there is so much crime.
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LARTing by text message (Score:4, Funny)
Extra points for visible smoke emanating from the screeching tires.
Double extra points for loss of vehicle control!
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It's a Mattel Hot Wheels radar gun, runs on 4 AAA batteries, operates on the X band, and sells for about $30 at Wal-Mart and other fine retailers.
Not a bad idea screwing with the morons driving dangerously.
If getting drivers to slow down was the point... (Score:5, Insightful)
A patrol car in the median is more than enough to slow down all but the stupid or inattentive.
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Re:If getting drivers to slow down was the point.. (Score:4, Insightful)
And I imagine it's worse in many small towns where moving violations sometimes make up a large portion of the town revenue.
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For example, anytime I drive to Tampa, FL there is a crazy stretch of road where the speed limits go from 55->25->45->25 etc... where the police really do make money from the speed trap revenues. It's pretty amusing since people have put billboards up complaining about the ticketing on this stretch of road.
Re:If getting drivers to slow down was the point.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Yep, it's about attention, not speeding (Score:2)
I agree. Every time I got a speeding ticket, I deserved it. Not because I was speeding, but because I got caught: I was daydreaming or whatever, and didn't see the cop in time. If I didn't see the cop in time, who knows what else I wasn't paying attention to?
When I'm properly alert (i.e. a safe driver, someone who isn't much of a danger to other peoples' safety), I don't get tickets. Yeah, under those circumstances, they could probably nail me for speeding anyway, by being stealthier or lasing me at a
Re:If getting drivers to slow down was the point.. (Score:2)
Re:If getting drivers to slow down was the point.. (Score:5, Interesting)
It's just the easiest way to collect tickets. Point a radar gun, boom, and write ticket.
I see all kinds of more dangerous traffic infractions that almost no cop gives a damn about. Failure to use turn signals. Or this situation: you are on a normal two-lane two-way road at an intersection with a green light. You are at the forefront and want to make a left turn and the car opposite from you is in the same situation. There is a line of cars behind both of you. Most state laws would give the left-turners the right of way and both of you should be able to turn left simultaneously. What instead usually happens is that the cars behind you take to the shoulder (illegally in this case - going onto the shoulder is to avoid an obstacle, not traffic) and go around you, cutting the two turning left off from their right-of-way. This is where the law and (now) common practice collide.
Someone else mention the left lane as passing. It also recently became State law here that left was only to be used for passing and faster traffic. Not in practice. Most times I see some cas right next to each other neck and neck (and not even going fast) which leaves me wondering why the guy in the left lane even bothered going in the left lane... other than to block everyone else.
But cops sure do love keeping on writing the speeding tickets. I guess going slow negates the danger of not following any other rules:/
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I see all kinds of more dangerous traffic infractions that almost no cop gives a damn about.
YES
In my city people commonly drive very dangerously - not signaling when they turn, aggressively weaving around in lanes so they can get to the red light 3 seconds before everyone else, running red light/stop signs, pulling out in front of traffic so that everyone else has to stop briefly to avoid hitting you - but the cops never seem to give a damn. Go more than 6 mph over the speed limit, though, and they pounce on you. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that people should speed - but the amount of e
Re:If getting drivers to slow down was the point.. (Score:4, Interesting)
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Or the idiots who are doing 5 over and slam on the brakes when they see that patrol car in the median. THAT will cause an accident real quick.
News flash: On 90% of interstates, the police won't bat an eye at you doing 70 in a 65. On I-90 in NY, it's been pretty well established that as long as you're under 80 (limit is 65), you're in the clear as long as it's not the end of the month and the troopers are
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The only other instance I'm aware of is when the driver in front of you is making a left turn.
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It's not *necessary* in most of Europe - almost always there is some decrepit truck driving 50 km/h down the right lane, and trucks driving 55 km/h trying to pass him, trucks driving 60 km/h trying to pass them, etc.
Re:If getting drivers to slow down was the point.. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:If getting drivers to slow down was the point.. (Score:4, Insightful)
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I'm going to guess you're not in America where getting a license to drive is a right, not a privilege. I've been a fully licensed driver in the US since age 16 (22 years) and the only skills I've had to demonstrate is not being completely blind and able to get 70% or better on a 20 question multiple choice test. Once. 22 years ago.
Driver's training whe
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I had much more extensive driver training at my high school (including parallel parking and everything else, driving significant distances with the instructor, etc.), but the DMV didn't know about that.
False Positives? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:False Positives? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Here in northern Virginia, the police set up small billboards that show your speed as you are passing. Since the signs use police radar, they also set off radar detectors, slowing people down. I'd like to get a permanent one installed in our neighborhood. These don't have speed cameras, but they could.
Re:False Positives? (Score:4, Informative)
As an aside, when I submitted this the trapster website was pretty slow, and I'm pretty surprised it's holding up so far. Way to go.
Cry wolf - low rep (Score:2)
Cell phone messages are "old tech." Think of this as a demonstration of an idea, a prototype.
In the future, threat advisories would be signed, and client software would look up the keyid in a reputation database. People who cry wolf would be weighed appropriately (i.e. not shown at all, or the "cop here" consensual imagery that you see overlayed with the road, would be extremely faint/transparent to reflect its low probability).
Another way to avoid tickets (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Another way to avoid tickets (Score:4, Insightful)
They're just a tax on the stupid who are inattentive and don't understand how numbers work.
Re:Another way to avoid tickets (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Another way to avoid tickets (Score:4, Informative)
A tax is something you have to pay. It is entirely possible to drive, for years, without getting a single ticket. I've done it.
It's only a tax on the poor of those particular people can't drive. If that's the case, then I don't mind. The system should discourage those who can't drive from driving.
Should it be based on your income? That's fine with me. But don't call it a tax.
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(I think in the UK you could speed a maximum of three times before your next driving offence lost you your license.)
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Re:Another way to avoid tickets (Score:5, Insightful)
If it's green when you see it, assume it will turn yellow at any time: prepare to stop.
If it's yellow when you see it, assume it will turn red: you should be stopping
If it is red when you see it, assume the idiots coming the other way will run the yellow or red. Wait a second after it turns green then Go.
Stopping is not a problem if you assume everyone else is going to be more stupid than you are. It's driving again...
Re:Another way to avoid tickets (Score:5, Insightful)
That's good advice, but if you're watching the light and traffic, it can still take anywhere from 1/4 to 3/4 seconds to observe that the light has changed and depress the brake pedal. At 35mph, you're traveling at 51 feet per second and will need 101 feet to safely stop [jmu.edu], or 130 feet if you're a truck. That means that if the yellow light is less than two seconds and you're 100 feet away, you can't safely stop without entering the intersection, and you can't enter the intersection before the light is red. Hopefully, the cameras will at least let you go if you enter the intersection on the yellow and leave on the red, otherwise you need to add the full length of the intersection to the calculation, and that can easily be 50 feet, or another full second.
Therefore, if you come back and record the light's transitions and discover that the light provides less than two seconds of stopping time you have an affirmative defense in that it is physically impossible with standard automotive equipment for a vehicle to stop in the time allotted. You might reasonably argue for 3 seconds, since stopping distance is increased in foul weather to about 150 feet and setting the time less than that is unsafe (though if weather is that foul, the driver should be reducing their speed so that they can stop in 100 feet anyways). Also, a setting of 2 seconds requires that the driver be able to identify their range to the intersection as greater or less than 101-102 feet, which is an unreasonably small target to estimate on the fly. A setting of 3 seconds in fair weather allows the driver to estimate their distance as greater or less than a 101-153 foot space, which is reasonably manageable.
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being in a major city near a retirement destinations, I am probably seeing the more extreme downside of this practice.
1) if your stopping/slowing when others aren't, your going to be causing accidents. Granted those accidents won't be "your fault" legally, still not something I l
Re:Another way to avoid tickets (Score:5, Interesting)
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Over in the UK, the requirements are that there need to be 4 serious injuries within 1km of the spot, and that the 85th percentile of the speeds needs to be above the legal limit.
However, statistically, the 85th to 90th percentile are the safest drivers (who drive according to what the road and conditions support at the time).
And also, given any arbitrary 2km stretch of road, given time, there will pro
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Near my house is a section of roadway (a divided 4-lane) where the limit inexplicably drops from 55mph to 35mph for a half mile. Mind you, there are no curves, intersecting roads or any other "dangers." Guess where the cops set up to bust "speeders"?
There are those who simply don't happily comply with arbitrary rules when there is no logical reason for the rule, and I'm one of those people. If I'm rolling to a stop sign and can clearly see no oncoming cars (or the police), I'm going to
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There are those who simply don't happily comply with arbitrary rules when there is no logical reason for the rule, and I'm one of those people.
Arbitrary rules like the inexplicable drop in speed limit you described or the shorter yellow light associated with red light cameras that others have pointed out are the exception, not the rule. I have no problem with you or anyone disregarding the rules in those cases. But, if you roll the dice, you take your chances. I have no sympathy for you if you get ticketed.
Needless to say, speed traps have nothing to do with safety and everything to do with income.
Actually, it's a bit of both. Reckless drivers are a legitimate concern, and the police should be doing something about it. I have no probl
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speed limit you described or the shorter yellow light associated with red light cameras that others have pointed out are the exception, not the rule.
It wasn't that long ago that the speed limits across the country were an abysmally low 55mph. That's changed not too long ago, and the limits in most states are closer to 65-80 mph, but yet the roads haven't changed. The roads are obviously able to handle the higher speeds, so that would lead me to believe that a few years ago dumb laws were "the rule", and n
Re:Another way to avoid tickets (Score:4, Insightful)
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Well, then ... frankly, you're part of the problem...
Consider it your civic duty to protest the injustice in court, even if it is inconvenient, even if it costs more. If more people do this, then the operation becomes less lucrative, and they will then have less incentive to do it.
I've protested ev
Re:Another way to avoid tickets (Score:4, Informative)
For example, note this article [caranddriver.com] from Car and Driver magazine that outlines how fatalities remained static and even went down in some states after the national speed limit was lifted in 1995 and states began raising speed limits, yet authorities claimed they had gone up by not including all of the data. From the article:
This is exactly what one would expect, because the highways with the higher speed limits attract drivers from slower roads. More drivers on the highways mean more accidents and fatalities on the highways, but fewer drivers and fatalities on other roads. Charles Lave, an economics professor at the University of California-Irvine, examined this phenomenon in a study in 1989. He also found that raising highway speed limits allowed police to spend less of their time writing speeding tickets and more time apprehending drunk drivers and patrolling dangerous roads.
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I stop at red lights, and stop signs. I yield at yield signs, stopping if necessary at red yield signs. I generally obey all the "meaningful" trafic control devices, both for my safety and the safety of others on the road.
I almost never, however, obey the speed limit. States and towns have set them almost ubiquitously low, for reasons that don't apply to most drivers - Revenue c
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The obvious questions (Score:2)
OT: laws banning non-hands-free cells (Score:4, Insightful)
Rather than banning certain activities like shaving, talking on a cell, fiddling with the radio, or tending to unruly children, train new drivers on how to drive with common every-day distractions, train them to use common sense in minimizing distractions in unfamiliar environments, and if they get in a wreck and a distraction is one of the factors, let that affect who is deemed "at fault."
However, it could be considered ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Especially if you get someone who has some cell phone activity right before an accident.
Prior art - not that it matters (Score:3, Informative)
But I posted on about an almost identical system, which I called "copwatch" here on Slashdot, about a year ago...and it was something I 100% thought out on my own. Pretty cool someone did it.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227045&cid=18394299
March 18 2007
Basically, it uses the same principle, but every time you see a traffic cop, you press a button somewhere in your car. Your car, with the use of a GPS, then beacons the location of the police car. Other cars then repeat the beacon, which does have a TTL value on it as well.
To prevent false positives, there is a limit to how many reports someone could generate in a set time period, and multiple reports in the same area could mod the threat up.
This would all be happening pretty transparently to everyone, unless they were within a set distance of an active alert, at which point they would be alerted to the danger.
Not reliable enough (Score:5, Funny)
- *flashing lights*
- Guy gets pulled over
- "license and registration please"
- cell phone beeps "speed trap ahead"
- "Oh what have we got here?"
illegal? (Score:2)
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I'm disappointed (Score:2)
It works both ways. (Score:2, Insightful)
Police officials that Tenereillo has talked to haven't complained about the service because it inevitably encourages drivers to slow down.
So all the cops have to do to slow traffic down city wide would be two periodically send a car around with an officer punching #1 into his cellphone at many locations. This way users would know that there are speed traps EVERYWHERE.
Arms Race (Score:4, Funny)
My friend just bought a shiny new radar detector. Radar detectors are illegal in some places and the cops can find out if your using one with a radar detector detector. My friend's new radar detector prevents that from happening because it has a radar detector detector detector that shuts off the radar detector if it detects a radar detector detector.
Seriously, this arms race has to stop! I'm sick of using the word detector!
Individual officers may not mind but... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Sigh (Score:4, Funny)
Apparently, you are.
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The fact that you read something that I didn't actually say kind of proves my point.
Oops, I'm getting sucked in...
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I think that's a lot safer because in this part of the world you can be penalised quite severely for touching your mobile phone while driving. Additionally the gps has a much more accurate idea of my position and is aware of my actual speed and the limit in force on my particular stretch of road.
The databases I use are - static speed cameras, regular locations
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Re:The Easiest Way to Ticket Free Driving is... (Score:4, Insightful)
If everyone else is doing 40, it very well might.