The underlying problem isn't in the Chinese legal system and their ability to demand data from private companies. After all, the US has laws that permit it to serve warrants to demand information, including secret ones that cannot be challenged (FISA). The differences between the US and China in this area are not as large as many have been led to believe!
The underlying problem is that the Chinese government has a board-level ownership stake in many companies, not just the ones that are 100% state-owned. And board-level corporate owners in China get access, much as board-level corporate owners do in the US.
But there is a HUGE difference here between China and the US: In the US, the government is not allowed to own corporations, except within very narrow and limited legislated boundaries.
Were the Chinese government to divest itself of corporate ownership (including state-owned businesses) and vacate all board seats it holds/controls, that should greatly reduce the tensions and concerns. Unfortunately this is unlikely, since the state-owned companies help fund the Chinese government which in turn helps keeps taxes artificially low.
In the specific case of Huawei, a company that is not publicly traded and claims to be employee-owned (it's murky), there is literally no way to know the level of Chinese government involvement: There is no Chinese legislation that limits it! This is despite Huawei's frequent claims of independence from the Chinese government, something it has been unable to prove (perhaps due to Chinese state security or intelligence gathering laws).
Though I personally like Huawei products, I cannot say the US government is in any way wrong to limit Huawei access to US markets and products.
This is all a very "look at the silly monkey" joke. If it's acceptable to ban Huawei from 5G development, deployment and microchip supplies because they "might" be sharing data with their home country's government then we need to ban every telecom manufacturer for the same reason.
Your BS: China might spy, but that is IMPOSSIBLE in America.
Reality: There is no evidence that Huawei spies, while America's government has been caught red-handed inserting backdoors into commercial products and spying on enemies, friends, and allies.
You've entirely missed the point: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
We have no way to determine the level of Chinese government direct involvement in Huawei. However, it is an absolute fact that the Chinese government has massive direct influence in the majority of large Chinese corporations, most often through various branches of the PLA (which is nearly a government unto itself). What we call "spying" from our perspective they may call "business as usual" from their perspective. That's an
Even if there were laws in China against government ownership of corporations, the government could break its own laws with impunity. There are no checks or balances against abuse of power, other than higher-ranking party officials becoming upset with someone's behavior.
Saying the party self-regulates and the US has checks and balances, is effectively a comparison of nil value. The only difference is the US has a polarized landscape and the Chinese system has to effectively agree on a unified policy. In practice both have supreme examples of cronyism. Since this is the general measurement of corruption, we cannot really arrive at any meaningful conclusion and to do so, often only illuminates our bias to our belief that countries are really that different when they all pl
Some random bureaucrat in D.C. can't plant monitors in corporate board rooms at a whim with the blessing of higher-ups. In China, this can (and does) happen all the time.
China can rewrite and reinterpret its own laws on a whim, at any time, with no meaningful due process.
The CCP can confiscate property. The CCP can forcibly relocate you or make you disappear. It can do anything it wants so long as it doesn't step on the wrong toes or upset too many people. You can't (yet) do th
You are so write. Truly an expert on China and US history. This is why the trail of tears never happened because in America you can not force people to relocate and there is no such thing as imminent domain because lawyer armiestgat work for the good of society. This is why guantanamo bay is actually a beautiful vacation spot because in America the electorate could never circumvent inalienable rights and if they did those shining lawyers would March to the rescue of anyone in need. America is number one
The underlying problem isn't in the Chinese legal system and their ability to demand data from private companies. After all, the US has laws that permit it to serve warrants to demand information, including secret ones that cannot be challenged (FISA). The differences between the US and China in this area are not as large as many have been led to believe!
In the specific case of Huawei, a company that is not publicly traded and claims to be employee-owned (it's murky), there is literally no way to know the level of Chinese government involvement: There is no Chinese legislation that limits it! This is despite Huawei's frequent claims of independence from the Chinese government, something it has been unable to prove (perhaps due to Chinese state security or intelligence gathering laws).
For a bit of (recommended) light reading, in 2017 China's State Council produced a paper (full translation here) [newamerica.org] on its plans for the development of AI. One indirect analysis of it surmised that: "Underpinning it were a set of beliefs: that AI can “harmonise” Chinese society; that for it to do so, the government should store data on every citizen; that companies, not the state, were best positioned to innovate; that no company should refuse access to the government to its data." It is this last,
"Bond reflected that good Americans were fine people and that most of them
seemed to come from Texas."
- Ian Fleming, "Casino Royale"
Chinese Government Divestiture (Score:5, Informative)
The underlying problem isn't in the Chinese legal system and their ability to demand data from private companies. After all, the US has laws that permit it to serve warrants to demand information, including secret ones that cannot be challenged (FISA). The differences between the US and China in this area are not as large as many have been led to believe!
The underlying problem is that the Chinese government has a board-level ownership stake in many companies, not just the ones that are 100% state-owned. And board-level corporate owners in China get access, much as board-level corporate owners do in the US.
But there is a HUGE difference here between China and the US: In the US, the government is not allowed to own corporations, except within very narrow and limited legislated boundaries.
Were the Chinese government to divest itself of corporate ownership (including state-owned businesses) and vacate all board seats it holds/controls, that should greatly reduce the tensions and concerns. Unfortunately this is unlikely, since the state-owned companies help fund the Chinese government which in turn helps keeps taxes artificially low.
In the specific case of Huawei, a company that is not publicly traded and claims to be employee-owned (it's murky), there is literally no way to know the level of Chinese government involvement: There is no Chinese legislation that limits it! This is despite Huawei's frequent claims of independence from the Chinese government, something it has been unable to prove (perhaps due to Chinese state security or intelligence gathering laws).
Though I personally like Huawei products, I cannot say the US government is in any way wrong to limit Huawei access to US markets and products.
Re: (Score:0)
Re: (Score:3)
Every nation with the capability to produce its own telecoms gear should do so specifically for this reason.
We gave up the capability to make our own electronic devices with all home-grown parts, but we could and should get there again.
As long as people are capable of evil, it makes sense to institute defense in depth.
Re: (Score:1)
Your BS: China might spy, but that is IMPOSSIBLE in America.
Reality: There is no evidence that Huawei spies, while America's government has been caught red-handed inserting backdoors into commercial products and spying on enemies, friends, and allies.
Re: (Score:3)
You've entirely missed the point: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
We have no way to determine the level of Chinese government direct involvement in Huawei. However, it is an absolute fact that the Chinese government has massive direct influence in the majority of large Chinese corporations, most often through various branches of the PLA (which is nearly a government unto itself). What we call "spying" from our perspective they may call "business as usual" from their perspective. That's an
Re: (Score:2)
Even if there were laws in China against government ownership of corporations, the government could break its own laws with impunity. There are no checks or balances against abuse of power, other than higher-ranking party officials becoming upset with someone's behavior.
Re: Chinese Government Divestiture (Score:2)
Saying the party self-regulates and the US has checks and balances, is effectively a comparison of nil value. The only difference is the US has a polarized landscape and the Chinese system has to effectively agree on a unified policy. In practice both have supreme examples of cronyism. Since this is the general measurement of corruption, we cannot really arrive at any meaningful conclusion and to do so, often only illuminates our bias to our belief that countries are really that different when they all pl
Re: (Score:2)
A comparison of nil value?
Some random bureaucrat in D.C. can't plant monitors in corporate board rooms at a whim with the blessing of higher-ups. In China, this can (and does) happen all the time.
China can rewrite and reinterpret its own laws on a whim, at any time, with no meaningful due process.
The CCP can confiscate property. The CCP can forcibly relocate you or make you disappear. It can do anything it wants so long as it doesn't step on the wrong toes or upset too many people. You can't (yet) do th
Re: Chinese Government Divestiture (Score:2)
You are so write. Truly an expert on China and US history. This is why the trail of tears never happened because in America you can not force people to relocate and there is no such thing as imminent domain because lawyer armiestgat work for the good of society. This is why guantanamo bay is actually a beautiful vacation spot because in America the electorate could never circumvent inalienable rights and if they did those shining lawyers would March to the rescue of anyone in need. America is number one
Re: (Score:3)
The underlying problem isn't in the Chinese legal system and their ability to demand data from private companies. After all, the US has laws that permit it to serve warrants to demand information, including secret ones that cannot be challenged (FISA). The differences between the US and China in this area are not as large as many have been led to believe!
In the specific case of Huawei, a company that is not publicly traded and claims to be employee-owned (it's murky), there is literally no way to know the level of Chinese government involvement: There is no Chinese legislation that limits it! This is despite Huawei's frequent claims of independence from the Chinese government, something it has been unable to prove (perhaps due to Chinese state security or intelligence gathering laws).
For a bit of (recommended) light reading, in 2017 China's State Council produced a paper (full translation here) [newamerica.org] on its plans for the development of AI. One indirect analysis of it surmised that: "Underpinning it were a set of beliefs: that AI can “harmonise” Chinese society; that for it to do so, the government should store data on every citizen; that companies, not the state, were best positioned to innovate; that no company should refuse access to the government to its data." It is this last,