I don't like playing cultural imperialist, but something about current Asian cultures seems to me to be broken: this isn't exactly the first suicide of its sort, or even an uncommon phenomenon, just one of the more high-profile cases (since it's Apple, and a senior guy). Western culture isn't immune to these effects either (cf. high-profile financial advisors committing suicide in 2008-2009), but I understand that it's significantly more of an issue in Asia. I'd hazard that it's something in the common implementation of 'honor' and self-value that predisposes people towards a massive breakdown in the face of 'public disgrace'.
Not that Americans couldn't use a bit more of the right sort of Honor in their regimen, mind you.
China has their Yuan fixed to the dollar, rather than allowing it to float freely. If you take any value around GDP in China (or India) of a common money, then it is total nonsense. As it is, many economist think that the Yuan should be 300-400% higher (i.e. about 1.5-2 yuan/dollar instead of the 7 yuan / dollar that the run).
> China has their Yuan fixed to the dollar, rather than allowing it to float freely.
For China, having the Rinminbi pegged to a strong foreign currency is probably a good choice, for the time being. It's easier to maintain than a specie standard, especially in the modern world, and it effectively delegates the problem of monetary policy at a time when China has bigger issues to deal with, such as how to effectively allow the continued modernization of their economy and the urbanization of their populace
Problem is, that when we gave them MFN in 1994, it was with the agreement that in 2002, they would drop trade barriers AND free their money. They reneged. W did not make them stick with it, which is EXACTLY why America is in the shape that we are. Had the Yuan risen slowly, then trade would have leveled off. Now, we have to get China to do the right thing by the WORLD and SLOWLY free their money. I doubt that they will.
My guess is that next year, we will bring pressure on CHina to live up to their obligat
They speak about the dollar dropping, but that is as much, if not more, their fault.
Meanwhile, they're buying up all the gold they can get their hands on, while the Dollar is sinking below the value where it's a reasonable world reserve currency. China and Russia are going to keep at it until the IMF creates a new one (or 'the basket'), at which point China will depeg and overnight have a 40% return as the idle dollars come home.
We can try to shame China into not taking advantage of our ludicrous monetary
Your arrogance and foolishness is amazing (as well as your cowardice). China has their money FIXED against the dollar. They put it in a "basket" and it adjusts upwards/downwards only in relation of the euro to the dollar. It has adjusted less than 5% even though China now has 3 trillion dollars. For China to continue to have MFN and have things be RIGHT by economics, the west will be after Chinese gov. to live up to their agreements. THey have NOT. THey were to free the money, not just control it ever so sl
Your information is outdated, this was true up to 2005, but now the currencies are no longer pegged.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume you're confusing pegging with the fact that the RMB is not convertible to the USD.
China uses a basket, which they control and they keep the value fixed against the dollar even though they have accumulated 3 TRILLION dollars. In a proper economy, the dollar would plummet against the Yuan/Renminbi. In fact, most economists say that if China allowed it to properly float, that they Yuan would trade at about 1.5-2 yuan/dollar. Right now, it trades at ~7 yuan to a dollar.
On September 30, 2008, the renminbi traded at 6.7899 yuan per U.S. dollar, which is a 17.3% increase and the highest rate [wikipedia.org]
You have noticed an important thing but strongly mis-interpreted it. Ask yourself: what can drive a sane, grown up person to a suicide?
Two things are common. A deadly illness and a falling down of status. If you read up some history of all the misery and changes people of former USSR and former Warsaw pact have expirienced (and many still do) it is no wonder that the suicide rate is that high. This feeling of having fallen down and the lack of hope that it ever gets better is especially strong in the Russia
Those are tragic reasons that help explain the high suicide rate in eastern europe. It is strange that Asia has such a suicide-eager image when the reality is so different.
Just an FYI, in Asia most suicides are classified as something else in true crime rates. In order to affect a lower suicide rate in the overall data trending. European data trending can be higher because they sometimes include 'other' crimes into their suicide figures during data reporting.
Never trust data, unless you see the raw data sets yourself.
Is that like some cops classifying "white guy walking into a black gangsta neighborhood while wearing a t-shirt with racially inflammatory words printed on it" as suicide, and some not?:)
Is that like some cops classifying "white guy walking into a black gangsta neighborhood while wearing a t-shirt with racially inflammatory words printed on it" as suicide, and some not?:)
Well not quite, more like this. In Japan for example a suicide, where someone jumps off a bridge and drowns may be classified as a drowning. Where as someone who commits suicide but pillpopping is an overdose, and someone who hangs themselves is an actual suicide.
Russia's land is mostly in Asia, but a very disproportionate amount of the population lives west of the Urals, in the portion generally considered to be European.
The profile of who is committing suicide tells the full story. In Western countries, it is overwhelmingly young (teenage to early twenties) males, followed by young females. This coincides with the most emotionally unstable period of most peoples lives. In Japan (and possibly other Asian cultures), the figures are overwhelmingly dominated by middle aged men - middle to senior management and politicians who are under a lot of pressure not to let their company or country down.
Okay, but Eastern Europeans commit suicide because they are clinically depressed and don't want to go on living, not because they are honor-bound to commit suicide in order to save face and avoid bringing shame on their families for seven generations.
The European scenario is certainly unfortunate, but the Asian way is weirder.
By simple math, 68.1 per 100k plus 12.9 per 100k would be 81.0 per 200k, which is 40.5 per 100k. This is close to the number above, but not exactly. The reason is that by adding the numbers together like that, that's assuming a population with exactly the same number of females as male. However, this is not the case, with most countries having more females than males, so that's why the number is a bit lower than you would otherwise expect. If you're clever, you can back out the male:female ratio from th
It's a weighted average. 68.1 males per 100k males. 12.9 females per 100k females. You can't just add, you have to account for how 100k of a population is made of both males and females.
It is rather disappointing that Hank Paulson, Ben Bernanke, Alan Greenspan, Timothy Geithner, and Bernie Madoff haven't sought to atone.
Well to put this into perspective:
Hank Paulson served a little under 3 years as Secretary of Treasury for George W. Bush. He helped to initiate the bailouts under Bush.
Ben Bernanke served a little over 3 years as Chairman of the Federal Reserve. He also helped to initiate the bailouts under Bush.
Alan Greenspan served as Chairman of the Federal Reserve for almost 20 years before Bernanke.
Timothy Geithner served as President of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York for 6 years before his current position as Secretary of the Treasury.
and you lump these men together with:
Bernie Madoff who conducted a $65 billion world-wide Ponzi scheme lasting several decades.
You might disagree with the course of action these men have chosen for the country in the current crisis. You may question their intelligence and vision for not foreseeing the problems before they became crises, but I don't know if anyone should equate their actions or lack of actions to outright fraud. What is it that you think they should atone for?
The problems that have lead to the current situation were probably a decade in the making. The only one that might have had any real opportunity to change the course of history was Greenspan. Everyone else was relatively new to their job. And for the record, Greenspan admitted he placed too much faith in the rational behavior of financial institutions.
"Or is it the American/European taboo thinking suicide is "wrong" that is broken?"
Not so much wrong, but stupid. I mean, you are only given ONE life, why the fsck would you waste it? NOTHING is worth giving your life over....
I don't understand the Oriental thing with them killing themselves for 'losing face', I guess the only thing even close to that, is guys in the US that will get pissed off at their girlfriends leaving them, then go blow them away and turn the gun on themselves. I don't understand tha
I think he was trying to say that there isn't anything worth giving your life for, like an iphone, 1000 inch TV, or even a flying car. Not that there arent any imaginable circumstances where death would be preferable to living.
I think he was trying to say that there isn't anything worth giving your life for, like an iphone,
It's not about the phone, its probably about his job. He would have lost it for losing the iphones, if he lost this job he has no chance of getting another job like it. The guy probably had a family and didn't want to face the shame of being unable to provide for them.
Everyone dies. What is so wrong with going out at your own choosing?
God says you're wrong son.
Western aversion to suicide is religious. In Western Christian churches only God has the power to choose who lives or dies. Eastern religions like Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism don't have this compunction. In Bhuddism, suicide is one of those "I really rather you didn'ts", being a reincarnation religion it doesn't matter that much, you just may have to incur some bad Karma which determines weather you come
On the other hand, there is a potentially slippery slope here for the acceptability of: suicide --> assisted suicide --> encouraged suicide --> eugenics.
Oh, I think I should have included "Profit!!!" somewhere on that list....
I don't really understand most of those reasons either and you never will understand an emotional state until your are there, but there is something worth giving your life for and many of us have put our lives on the line for that. Your diatribe seems to invalidate the sacrifice of those that gave their lives for their countries, I think that needs to be corrected. So thanks from me for all of you who served or are serving now in any military in any country.
there are, however, some reasons where it is right(*). for example, choosing a painless dignified death over an agonising death like cancer or a living hell like final stage motor neurone disease.
(*) or, at least, a perfectly valid, legitimate, and understandable choice for an individual to make regardless of what you and your black-and-white view of the world say.
I haven't heard much about China, but in Japan (8th highest suicide rate) "losing face" can end your career. Submitting a bad report and having your boss say "Maybe you should re-write that" is akin to a death sentance. Their career at best will go nowhere, and at worst the boss will soon find another place for you. That doesn't pay as well. If at all./enddramaticuseofperiod
Different cultures are different. That should be apparent. In the US, a high importance is placed on the individual. Selfishness reigns, and if your boss tells you your project sucks, he can shove it. If he tries to stifle your career, you can go somewhere else. Other cultures see things differently, and a person who leaves one company for no apparent reason may be seen as tainted, and not welcome somewhere else.
I can't apply that directly to this case, but you get the point. You can't look at another culture from your culture's point of view and expect to make sense of it. You can compare cultures, but that's a whole 'nuther exercise, and an extremely difficult one to be objective while doing it.
I haven't heard much about China, but in Japan (8th highest suicide rate) "losing face" can end your career. Submitting a bad report and having your boss say "Maybe you should re-write that" is akin to a death sentance.
You read that in the American media, right?
Japanese people are not so precious. I've lived in Japan off and on (mostly on) for the last 10 years. Guess what? People here are the same as anywhere else.
The corporate culture you describe is something I have never seen or heard of, outside of stupid 80s movies about how Japan was going to take over the world, which were themselves just retreads of stupid WWII propaganda films about how Japan was going to take over the world. It is largely a fabrication based on a handful of isolated incidents. Does it happen? Of course. It happens in Western countries too. It's just far, far from common.
Full Disclosure: In addition to living here, I took 200 credits of Asian language, culture, history, and political science in college, studying both in the US and Japan. 'm not talking out of my ass here.
I had an office in the Hanzomon area of Tokyo that had a deck that looked across the street into an engineering firm. Yes, the workers were there from 8AM-6 or 7PM every single day (including the ubiquitous half-day Saturdays). HOWEVER... 9 times out of ten when I went out on the deck to smoke a good portion of them were staring into space, slumped in their chairs, or outright napping. Sure, they worked long hours but I highly doubt they were any more productive than workers nearly anywhere else in the worl
In the 1940s, it was thought that Japan would take over the world militarily, in the 1980s, it was thought that Japan would take over the world economically, and in the 2000s, it was thought that Japan would take over the world culturally.
> Submitting a bad report and having your boss say "Maybe you should re-write that"
I've not been to Japan myself, but from what I've read on the internet, I'm guessing a Japanese boss wouldn't say it that bluntly unless it was so unbelievably bad that you *deserved* to have your career ruined. If it was just bad in an ordinary way, the boss would perhaps say something more like, "This is really good. Say, have you ever seen the reports your predecessor submitted? Some of those were pretty good, too."
I don't like playing cultural imperialist, but something about current Asian cultures seems to me to be broken: this isn't exactly the first suicide of its sort, or even an uncommon phenomenon, just one of the more high-profile cases (since it's Apple, and a senior guy). Western culture isn't immune to these effects either (cf. high-profile financial advisors committing suicide in 2008-2009)
Um, this wasn't a suicide. And it's a nice bit of cultural stereotyping to picture asian people happily falling on
People kill themselves for much lesser reasons than losing a top-secret prototype that makes their company a lot of money, and by losing it will end said suicide-ee's career with said company.
I think it incredibly funny that you have, in essence, replaced one "deeply insulting" cultural stereotype with another. Namely that of corruption in china. I have no facts to say there is NOT such a culture in china, but if your post is any indication, then you do not have any facts to say there is such a culture either. Look before you leap.
Here's an anecdote for you: A friend of a friend leased a factory in China to begin producing some kind of small plastic widget. (Don't recall the specifics, cause it's been years since I heard this story.) Chinese officials came in to "inspect" the place. They seemed very interested in the company and learning all the details of what he was doing, and were curious to know when he expected to begin production. A couple weeks later after production began, they showed up again, this time with armed thugs. He
or was pushed over the balcony ledge by a bunch of company goons who were told to make an example of him to employees, with a public story that "our employees are so dedicated to your security, they'll..."? And really, how impartial do you think the investigation is going to be? In China, these companies own and run entire cities that make Mall of America look like a strip-mall. They don't even need to pay off the police- they already employ them. .
Just answer me one question: where you get all those information from? Seriously, where? Slashdotter loves China bashing, and you take it to the next lower level. Shame on modders for "Interesting".
China earns it's China bashing and then some. The bigger problem is desperately ignorant western fan boys who think China is some sort of Asian version of the US.
The first half of his post is obviously speculation, the second half is is absolutely correct, in fact a little light on, as he forgot to mention that these companies are effectively arms of the government and so don't need private police forces - they have the governments full backing.
Witness the latest Rio Tinto debacle to see what happens when
Sure, just don't buy ANYTHING from this country, otherwise you're supporting a repressive regime. Calling people's name doesn't strengthen your argument.
I can't believe how much your response is frustrating me.
Um, this wasn't a suicide.
And your proof is what, exactly?
And it's a nice bit of cultural stereotyping to picture Asian people happily falling on their swords.
I'm sorry, where exactly did you pull "happily falling on their swords" from? He was merely pointing out (imho) that there appears to be a higher suicide rate in China [asia] and it seems to stem, in part anyways, from the culture's greater weight on the importance of honor. Personally I'd argue (as does TFA) that it has more to do with the pressures that individuals find themselves under in the workplace.
Oh, an
I don't like playing cultural imperialist, but something about current Asian cultures seems to me to be broken
It's not the culture, it's the demographics.
Take China. Population 1.3 billion. But only 500 million of those are really taking part in the new economy. The other 800 million live in rural poverty. In fact, most of the 500 million who aren't, typically don't fare much better.
What does this mean in practical terms? It means that unless you are incredibly well educated, connected or monied, you are very, very expendable. There are literally ten people lined up behind you waiting for the same job, which means unless you are prepared to work enormous hours, under extreme pressure, in terrible conditions, you won't get it.
I had a talk with someone recently back from a business trip to Shanghai. Their group took a short walk through the city one evening, between the rows of shining new skyscrapers that carpet the metropolitan area. As they walked, they could see into offices where employees could be seen through the windows, sleeping on the desks they had been working at all day. How are you supposed to compete with that?
China is witnessing the kind of rapid capitalism not seen in the world since the 1890's. An economy where labour is cheap and people are treated worse and paid less because there are so many others, literally hungry enough to so the same for even less than that. The kind of capitalism that gave rise to theories like Say's Law [wikipedia.org], which held you could never have massive unemployment because there would always be people willing to work for a bowl of rice a day.
And do you know what the most ironic thing about this whole state of affairs is? China has never actually had a communist revolution.
I am Chinese and I think you really understand what is happening here. But it's really hard to find a way out. If we have more protection of employees, higher salaries, less working hours, it will definitely make massive unemployment.
The point is, if we do think all people are born EQUAL, we should accept that, some one work harder and require less will get the job, the ones who works less but earn much more salary will lost his job, even if they are your fellow citizens.
If we have more protection of employees, higher salaries, less working hours, it will definitely make massive unemployment.
I think this a fallacy promoted by those who want to maintain profit margins. If this were true, then we should expect to see mass unemployment in most western countries where these protections apply. But we don't. And while it's true that many jobs have gone to China, one could make the case that the average Chinese worker is actually worse off in terms of quality of life compared to the western worker, who is only marginally so, if at all.
The great paradox of the Chinese economic boom is how it has so failed to significantly raise the living standards of the population as a whole. The reason it has failed is because of lack of protection and fair compensation for employees. There is little domestic demand for goods as people have little money and less time to buy them. Western economies were similar for decades, with successive booms doing little to improve the lot of the average man until labour laws came into force, primarily after the second world war.
Industrial relations are an extremely important part of any economy, and it is vital that a balance be achieved there. China has so far failed to achieve this balance. The consequences for failing to do so may be dire indeed.
I don't like playing cultural imperialist, but something about current Asian cultures seems to me to be broken: this isn't exactly the first suicide of its sort, or even an uncommon phenomenon, just one of the more high-profile cases
Good going, dude. Please, point us at your published works on philosophy. Seems to me that OUR WAY is as broken as Asia's way, maybe worse.
Remember the financial meltdown on Wall Street, recently? There should have been hundreds of bodies hitting the sidewalk. Not for their own lost fortunes, but for the billions and billions of dollars lost that WEREN'T THEIR'S to lose.
Seriously, I'd think it's not about just Asia culture but the result of free market and the global village. North American wants Walmart/resource-exploit lifestyle, China feeds to it with cheap labour. To me, the China situation is comparable to illegal immigrants in the states. Everybody hates them (they'are commie/illegal), but OTOH, people benefits from them without knowing it.
It's not that Asian work culture is broken; it's just very, very different from what we in Western cultures are accustomed to. Let's take Japan as a (very overused, but perfect) example. Japanese students begin training for an entrance exam from the 5th grade. The grade on that entrance exam is, for all intents and purposes, the difference between a Japanese student landing a decent job and living a very difficult life.
On top of that, the Japanese hold very high regards to their workmanship, and many employ
the poor guy would not jump from the building, he would buy a gun, take it to his office, kill bunch of random people who happen to be there, and then kill himself..
mod me down all you like, but in a few months it will be office shooting again somewhere, as it always have been.
> something about current Asian cultures seems to me to be broken
Every human culture of which I am aware is broken in one way or another.
Since we're talking about Chinese cultural weirdness today, the most bizarre example I'm aware of is the One China Policy. It's foolish, childish, stubborn, and clearly at odds with reality -- practically a textbook definition of "insane".
But it's not like Western culture doesn't have some pretty off-the-wall norms as well. Maybe you're used to them because you grew u
I don't like playing cultural imperialist, but something about current Asian cultures seems to me to be broken:
From your strictly western viewpoint yes. But Asian culture is less tolerant of failure and suicide is considered an honourable death in many cultures, especially as a means of atonement for failure. Aversion to suicide in western society is almost entirely religion based with most catholic churches declaring suicide to be a sin as God is the only one who can decide who lives and who dies.
'Western culture isn't immune to these effects either (cf. high-profile financial advisors committing suicide in 2008-2009), but I understand that it's significantly more of an issue in Asia.'
Most Western companies in recent years have also tended not to hire thugs to deal with suspects by kidnapping, beating, and maybe worse (at least not directly, or on home turf):
'Sun allegedly committed suicide after being detained and beaten by a man surnamed Gu, a senior official of Taiwan-based Foxconn Technology Gro
" Western culture isn't immune to these effects either (cf. high-profile financial advisors committing suicide in 2008-2009), but I understand that it's significantly more of an issue in Asia"
There is a huge difference between a very rich financial advisor losing all his money and clients, their trust and possibly going to jail committing suicide and a poor engineer committing suicide for sole reason of honor.
For some cultures, losing honor means losing the entire reason of living. For example, at a free ti
Looking at this list, it appears that the UK is 66th on the list for suicide rate. The US is 43rd. China is 26th and Japan is 8th. South Korea is 11th and Hong Kong (not sure why this didn't get lumped with China) 18th.
That said, not all Asian countries are high on the list. The Philippines is 86th and Thailand is 57th. Singapore is 48th.
If anything, the trend I see is not East Asian countries being high on the list, but rather a lot of Eastern European/North and North Western Asian countries (ie, Russia and it's western neighbors) being pretty high up.
"I consider that to be a feature of the culture, not a bug. I'd like to see a lot more politicians and government officials embrace suicide as a way of atoning for their dishonor. In America fucking up earns you a raise and a promotion. Getting caught with your pants down and dick out is just something to brazen out and hope the public attention fades. Senator Toe Tapper got to finish out his term instead of resigning in disgrace. Sen. Vitter the Shitter, he of the prostitutes and adult baby diaper fetish i
Apart for Congressman Freezer Bagman, the current crop of federal Dems haven't been stupid enough to get caught recently. Dem. Governors and Lieutenant Govs. are another issue entirely, but then he didn't mention Palin's investigations either.
"Apart for Congressman Freezer Bagman, the current crop of federal Dems haven't been stupid enough to get caught recently. Dem. Governors and Lieutenant Govs. are another issue entirely, but then he didn't mention Palin's investigations either."
Wasn't Palin (before she quit) recently found to be innocent of all those charges?
As for Dems...what about Charlie Rangel (sp?) the New York fellow, who was in trouble for tax problems in the Bahamas I think? The recent rash of Dem's that had to withdraw from comi
Poor guy... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Poor guy... (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't like playing cultural imperialist, but something about current Asian cultures seems to me to be broken: this isn't exactly the first suicide of its sort, or even an uncommon phenomenon, just one of the more high-profile cases (since it's Apple, and a senior guy). Western culture isn't immune to these effects either (cf. high-profile financial advisors committing suicide in 2008-2009), but I understand that it's significantly more of an issue in Asia. I'd hazard that it's something in the common implementation of 'honor' and self-value that predisposes people towards a massive breakdown in the face of 'public disgrace'.
Not that Americans couldn't use a bit more of the right sort of Honor in their regimen, mind you.
Re:Poor guy... (Score:5, Informative)
According to this [who.int] the top 7 are not Asian. China is way down there, below France, Poland, Switzerland, Uruguay.
Country, Male Suicide per 100k, Female suicide per 100k, total pop suicide per 100k, year
Lithuania 68.1 12.9 38.6 2005
Belarus 63.3 10.3 35.1 2003
Russia 58.1 9.8 32.2 2005
Slovenia 42.1 11.1 26.3 2006
Hungary 42.3 11.2 26.0 2005
Kazakhstan 45.0 8.1 25.9 2005
Latvia 42.0 9.6 24.5 2005
Japan 34.8 13.2 23.7 2006
I assumed the suicide rate would be much higher in Asia, but I guess it is just reported more or happens in more high-profile cases or something.
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Two things:
1) Those are per-capita. China's got a shitload more people than Lithuania...
2) Do we trust the Chinese (especially) numbers?
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Is there a list adjusted for per capita gdp?
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How would you adjust it? Should higher GDP mean more or less suicides? Should it be linear?
I don't think GDP would tell much of a story. Rich-poor divide might be a bit better, but that's harder to give an objective number to.
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Suicide rates are related to latitude (closer to the equator = less suicides). I think that should be the first thing to correct for.
That would be worthless (Score:4, Informative)
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For China, having the Rinminbi pegged to a strong foreign currency is probably a good choice, for the time being. It's easier to maintain than a specie standard, especially in the modern world, and it effectively delegates the problem of monetary policy at a time when China has bigger issues to deal with, such as how to effectively allow the continued modernization of their economy and the urbanization of their populace
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My guess is that next year, we will bring pressure on CHina to live up to their obligat
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They speak about the dollar dropping, but that is as much, if not more, their fault.
Meanwhile, they're buying up all the gold they can get their hands on, while the Dollar is sinking below the value where it's a reasonable world reserve currency. China and Russia are going to keep at it until the IMF creates a new one (or 'the basket'), at which point China will depeg and overnight have a 40% return as the idle dollars come home.
We can try to shame China into not taking advantage of our ludicrous monetary
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You are wrong (Score:2)
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You have noticed an important thing but strongly mis-interpreted it. Ask yourself: what can drive a sane, grown up person to a suicide?
Two things are common. A deadly illness and a falling down of status. If you read up some history of all the misery and changes people of former USSR and former Warsaw pact have expirienced (and many still do) it is no wonder that the suicide rate is that high. This feeling of having fallen down and the lack of hope that it ever gets better is especially strong in the Russia
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Re:Poor guy... (Score:5, Funny)
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Huh, interesting... makes you wonder if playing Russian roulette counts as suicide...
Re:Poor guy... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Poor guy... (Score:5, Insightful)
Just an FYI, in Asia most suicides are classified as something else in true crime rates. In order to affect a lower suicide rate in the overall data trending. European data trending can be higher because they sometimes include 'other' crimes into their suicide figures during data reporting.
Never trust data, unless you see the raw data sets yourself.
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Is that like some cops classifying "white guy walking into a black gangsta neighborhood while wearing a t-shirt with racially inflammatory words printed on it" as suicide, and some not?
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Well not quite, more like this. In Japan for example a suicide, where someone jumps off a bridge and drowns may be classified as a drowning. Where as someone who commits suicide but pillpopping is an overdose, and someone who hangs themselves is an actual suicide.
Where in some countries in Europe, pillpo
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I expected to see Kerplakistan in that list.
Top 5, not Top 7 (Score:3, Informative)
Your top five are not in Asia. You may not think of it as such, but Kazakhstan is most definitely an Asian country.
Mal-2
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You should adjust your statistic for age and look at suicide rates among people ages 8-45.
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Russia and Kazakhstan are both in Asia.
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Re:Poor guy... (Score:4, Insightful)
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I have no joke, I'd just like to quote:
"Suicides in Japan/South Korea jumped"
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The European scenario is certainly unfortunate, but the Asian way is weirder.
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By simple math, 68.1 per 100k plus 12.9 per 100k would be 81.0 per 200k, which is 40.5 per 100k. This is close to the number above, but not exactly. The reason is that by adding the numbers together like that, that's assuming a population with exactly the same number of females as male. However, this is not the case, with most countries having more females than males, so that's why the number is a bit lower than you would otherwise expect. If you're clever, you can back out the male:female ratio from th
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It's a weighted average. 68.1 males per 100k males. 12.9 females per 100k females. You can't just add, you have to account for how 100k of a population is made of both males and females.
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high-profile financial advisors committing suicide in 2008-2009
Not enough...
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Poor guy... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well to put this into perspective:
Hank Paulson served a little under 3 years as Secretary of Treasury for George W. Bush. He helped to initiate the bailouts under Bush.
Ben Bernanke served a little over 3 years as Chairman of the Federal Reserve. He also helped to initiate the bailouts under Bush.
Alan Greenspan served as Chairman of the Federal Reserve for almost 20 years before Bernanke.
Timothy Geithner served as President of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York for 6 years before his current position as Secretary of the Treasury.
and you lump these men together with:
Bernie Madoff who conducted a $65 billion world-wide Ponzi scheme lasting several decades.
You might disagree with the course of action these men have chosen for the country in the current crisis. You may question their intelligence and vision for not foreseeing the problems before they became crises, but I don't know if anyone should equate their actions or lack of actions to outright fraud. What is it that you think they should atone for?
The problems that have lead to the current situation were probably a decade in the making. The only one that might have had any real opportunity to change the course of history was Greenspan. Everyone else was relatively new to their job. And for the record, Greenspan admitted he placed too much faith in the rational behavior of financial institutions.
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Not enough...
It is rather disappointing that Hank Paulson, Ben Bernanke, Alan Greenspan, Timothy Geithner, and Bernie Madoff haven't sought to atone.
-jcr
This sounds rather like an anti-Semitic remark to me, Sir!
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I don't like playing cultural imperialist, but something about current Asian cultures seems to me to be broken:
Or is it the American/European taboo thinking suicide is "wrong" that is broken?
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Not so much wrong, but stupid. I mean, you are only given ONE life, why the fsck would you waste it? NOTHING is worth giving your life over....
I don't understand the Oriental thing with them killing themselves for 'losing face', I guess the only thing even close to that, is guys in the US that will get pissed off at their girlfriends leaving them, then go blow them away and turn the gun on themselves. I don't understand tha
Re:Poor guy... (Score:5, Insightful)
There really isn't anything out there worth giving your life for...it is short enough as it is, no need to 'rush' it.
Really? Even being "chained" to a hospital bed so you can be "brave" for 2 years as cancer eats up your body painfully?
Everyone dies. What is so wrong with going out at your own choosing?
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Everyone dies. What is so wrong with going out at your own choosing?
Sounds like you've been reading Shakespeare. http://shakespeare.mit.edu/julius_caesar/full.html [mit.edu]
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I think he was trying to say that there isn't anything worth giving your life for, like an iphone, 1000 inch TV, or even a flying car. Not that there arent any imaginable circumstances where death would be preferable to living.
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It's not about the phone, its probably about his job. He would have lost it for losing the iphones, if he lost this job he has no chance of getting another job like it. The guy probably had a family and didn't want to face the shame of being unable to provide for them.
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God says you're wrong son.
Western aversion to suicide is religious. In Western Christian churches only God has the power to choose who lives or dies. Eastern religions like Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism don't have this compunction. In Bhuddism, suicide is one of those "I really rather you didn'ts", being a reincarnation religion it doesn't matter that much, you just may have to incur some bad Karma which determines weather you come
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On the other hand, there is a potentially slippery slope here for the acceptability of: suicide --> assisted suicide --> encouraged suicide --> eugenics.
Oh, I think I should have included "Profit!!!" somewhere on that list....
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Oh, I think I should have included "Profit!!!" somewhere on that list
That's right after "Soylent".
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So suicide is wrong because it weakens your basis for feeling superior.
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yes, suicide IS wrong for many reasons.
there are, however, some reasons where it is right(*). for example, choosing a painless dignified death over an agonising death like cancer or a living hell like final stage motor neurone disease.
(*) or, at least, a perfectly valid, legitimate, and understandable choice for an individual to make regardless of what you and your black-and-white view of the world say.
Re:Poor guy... (Score:4, Informative)
I haven't heard much about China, but in Japan (8th highest suicide rate) "losing face" can end your career. Submitting a bad report and having your boss say "Maybe you should re-write that" is akin to a death sentance. Their career at best will go nowhere, and at worst the boss will soon find another place for you. That doesn't pay as well. If at all. /enddramaticuseofperiod
Different cultures are different. That should be apparent. In the US, a high importance is placed on the individual. Selfishness reigns, and if your boss tells you your project sucks, he can shove it. If he tries to stifle your career, you can go somewhere else. Other cultures see things differently, and a person who leaves one company for no apparent reason may be seen as tainted, and not welcome somewhere else.
I can't apply that directly to this case, but you get the point. You can't look at another culture from your culture's point of view and expect to make sense of it. You can compare cultures, but that's a whole 'nuther exercise, and an extremely difficult one to be objective while doing it.
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T,FTFY
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extremely difficult one to be objective while doing it.
Or you could just compare suicide rates...
Re:Poor guy... (Score:5, Interesting)
I haven't heard much about China, but in Japan (8th highest suicide rate) "losing face" can end your career. Submitting a bad report and having your boss say "Maybe you should re-write that" is akin to a death sentance.
You read that in the American media, right?
Japanese people are not so precious. I've lived in Japan off and on (mostly on) for the last 10 years. Guess what? People here are the same as anywhere else.
The corporate culture you describe is something I have never seen or heard of, outside of stupid 80s movies about how Japan was going to take over the world, which were themselves just retreads of stupid WWII propaganda films about how Japan was going to take over the world. It is largely a fabrication based on a handful of isolated incidents. Does it happen? Of course. It happens in Western countries too. It's just far, far from common.
Full Disclosure: In addition to living here, I took 200 credits of Asian language, culture, history, and political science in college, studying both in the US and Japan. 'm not talking out of my ass here.
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In the 1940s, it was thought that Japan would take over the world militarily, in the 1980s, it was thought that Japan would take over the world economically, and in the 2000s, it was thought that Japan would take over the world culturally.
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I've not been to Japan myself, but from what I've read on the internet, I'm guessing a Japanese boss wouldn't say it that bluntly unless it was so unbelievably bad that you *deserved* to have your career ruined. If it was just bad in an ordinary way, the boss would perhaps say something more like, "This is really good. Say, have you ever seen the reports your predecessor submitted? Some of those were pretty good, too."
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this wasn't a suicide (Score:2, Interesting)
I don't like playing cultural imperialist, but something about current Asian cultures seems to me to be broken: this isn't exactly the first suicide of its sort, or even an uncommon phenomenon, just one of the more high-profile cases (since it's Apple, and a senior guy). Western culture isn't immune to these effects either (cf. high-profile financial advisors committing suicide in 2008-2009)
Um, this wasn't a suicide. And it's a nice bit of cultural stereotyping to picture asian people happily falling on
Re:this wasn't a suicide (Score:5, Insightful)
People kill themselves for much lesser reasons than losing a top-secret prototype that makes their company a lot of money, and by losing it will end said suicide-ee's career with said company.
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I bet the RIDES in those malls are freakin' AWESOME!!
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I think it incredibly funny that you have, in essence, replaced one "deeply insulting" cultural stereotype with another. Namely that of corruption in china. I have no facts to say there is NOT such a culture in china, but if your post is any indication, then you do not have any facts to say there is such a culture either. Look before you leap.
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Here's an anecdote for you: A friend of a friend leased a factory in China to begin producing some kind of small plastic widget. (Don't recall the specifics, cause it's been years since I heard this story.) Chinese officials came in to "inspect" the place. They seemed very interested in the company and learning all the details of what he was doing, and were curious to know when he expected to begin production. A couple weeks later after production began, they showed up again, this time with armed thugs. He
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Montgomery Burns: "I prefer the personal touch you only get with hired goons."
Re:this wasn't a suicide (Score:5, Insightful)
.
Just answer me one question: where you get all those information from? Seriously, where? Slashdotter loves China bashing, and you take it to the next lower level. Shame on modders for "Interesting".
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China earns it's China bashing and then some. The bigger problem is desperately ignorant western fan boys who think China is some sort of Asian version of the US.
The first half of his post is obviously speculation, the second half is is absolutely correct, in fact a little light on, as he forgot to mention that these companies are effectively arms of the government and so don't need private police forces - they have the governments full backing.
Witness the latest Rio Tinto debacle to see what happens when
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How's your crow pie, bitch? Newsflash: China is a COMMUNIST country.
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I can't believe how much your response is frustrating me.
Um, this wasn't a suicide.
And your proof is what, exactly?
And it's a nice bit of cultural stereotyping to picture Asian people happily falling on their swords.
I'm sorry, where exactly did you pull "happily falling on their swords" from? He was merely pointing out (imho) that there appears to be a higher suicide rate in China [asia] and it seems to stem, in part anyways, from the culture's greater weight on the importance of honor. Personally I'd argue (as does TFA) that it has more to do with the pressures that individuals find themselves under in the workplace.
Oh, an
Re:Poor guy... (Score:4, Interesting)
in South Korea, the time of year when students get their report carts is known as 'jumping season'
Re:Poor guy... (Score:5, Interesting)
It's not the culture, it's the demographics.
Take China. Population 1.3 billion. But only 500 million of those are really taking part in the new economy. The other 800 million live in rural poverty. In fact, most of the 500 million who aren't, typically don't fare much better.
What does this mean in practical terms? It means that unless you are incredibly well educated, connected or monied, you are very, very expendable. There are literally ten people lined up behind you waiting for the same job, which means unless you are prepared to work enormous hours, under extreme pressure, in terrible conditions, you won't get it.
I had a talk with someone recently back from a business trip to Shanghai. Their group took a short walk through the city one evening, between the rows of shining new skyscrapers that carpet the metropolitan area. As they walked, they could see into offices where employees could be seen through the windows, sleeping on the desks they had been working at all day. How are you supposed to compete with that?
China is witnessing the kind of rapid capitalism not seen in the world since the 1890's. An economy where labour is cheap and people are treated worse and paid less because there are so many others, literally hungry enough to so the same for even less than that. The kind of capitalism that gave rise to theories like Say's Law [wikipedia.org], which held you could never have massive unemployment because there would always be people willing to work for a bowl of rice a day.
And do you know what the most ironic thing about this whole state of affairs is? China has never actually had a communist revolution.
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Re:Poor guy... (Score:4, Insightful)
I think this a fallacy promoted by those who want to maintain profit margins. If this were true, then we should expect to see mass unemployment in most western countries where these protections apply. But we don't. And while it's true that many jobs have gone to China, one could make the case that the average Chinese worker is actually worse off in terms of quality of life compared to the western worker, who is only marginally so, if at all.
The great paradox of the Chinese economic boom is how it has so failed to significantly raise the living standards of the population as a whole. The reason it has failed is because of lack of protection and fair compensation for employees. There is little domestic demand for goods as people have little money and less time to buy them. Western economies were similar for decades, with successive booms doing little to improve the lot of the average man until labour laws came into force, primarily after the second world war.
Industrial relations are an extremely important part of any economy, and it is vital that a balance be achieved there. China has so far failed to achieve this balance. The consequences for failing to do so may be dire indeed.
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I don't like playing cultural imperialist, but something about current Asian cultures seems to me to be broken: this isn't exactly the first suicide of its sort, or even an uncommon phenomenon, just one of the more high-profile cases
No, because in America if we are going to commit suicide we're going to take a lot of people with us. [wikipedia.org]
Or you can attention whore and do it on TV [wikipedia.org].
Re:Poor guy... (Score:4, Insightful)
"current Asian cultures seems to me to be broken"
Good going, dude. Please, point us at your published works on philosophy. Seems to me that OUR WAY is as broken as Asia's way, maybe worse.
Remember the financial meltdown on Wall Street, recently? There should have been hundreds of bodies hitting the sidewalk. Not for their own lost fortunes, but for the billions and billions of dollars lost that WEREN'T THEIR'S to lose.
Buncha low lifes.....
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It's not that Asian work culture is broken; it's just very, very different from what we in Western cultures are accustomed to. Let's take Japan as a (very overused, but perfect) example. Japanese students begin training for an entrance exam from the 5th grade. The grade on that entrance exam is, for all intents and purposes, the difference between a Japanese student landing a decent job and living a very difficult life.
On top of that, the Japanese hold very high regards to their workmanship, and many employ
If it were in the US... (Score:1)
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Every human culture of which I am aware is broken in one way or another.
Since we're talking about Chinese cultural weirdness today, the most bizarre example I'm aware of is the One China Policy. It's foolish, childish, stubborn, and clearly at odds with reality -- practically a textbook definition of "insane".
But it's not like Western culture doesn't have some pretty off-the-wall norms as well. Maybe you're used to them because you grew u
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From your strictly western viewpoint yes. But Asian culture is less tolerant of failure and suicide is considered an honourable death in many cultures, especially as a means of atonement for failure. Aversion to suicide in western society is almost entirely religion based with most catholic churches declaring suicide to be a sin as God is the only one who can decide who lives and who dies.
This
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'Western culture isn't immune to these effects either (cf. high-profile financial advisors committing suicide in 2008-2009), but I understand that it's significantly more of an issue in Asia.'
Most Western companies in recent years have also tended not to hire thugs to deal with suspects by kidnapping, beating, and maybe worse (at least not directly, or on home turf):
'Sun allegedly committed suicide after being detained and beaten by a man surnamed Gu, a senior official of Taiwan-based Foxconn Technology Gro
Reasons are different (Score:2)
" Western culture isn't immune to these effects either (cf. high-profile financial advisors committing suicide in 2008-2009), but I understand that it's significantly more of an issue in Asia"
There is a huge difference between a very rich financial advisor losing all his money and clients, their trust and possibly going to jail committing suicide and a poor engineer committing suicide for sole reason of honor.
For some cultures, losing honor means losing the entire reason of living. For example, at a free ti
Re:Poor guy... (Score:5, Informative)
There were 5,400 suicides in the UK in 2007. There have been more in other years.
A raw stat without comparison is meaningless though. 5,400 sounds like a lot, but is it really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate [wikipedia.org]
Looking at this list, it appears that the UK is 66th on the list for suicide rate. The US is 43rd. China is 26th and Japan is 8th. South Korea is 11th and Hong Kong (not sure why this didn't get lumped with China) 18th.
That said, not all Asian countries are high on the list. The Philippines is 86th and Thailand is 57th. Singapore is 48th.
If anything, the trend I see is not East Asian countries being high on the list, but rather a lot of Eastern European/North and North Western Asian countries (ie, Russia and it's western neighbors) being pretty high up.
Re:Poor guy... (Score:5, Informative)
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I have to wonder if those are actually suicides and not just female babies having 'accidents.'
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If you're serious, maybe it has something to do with being forced to have ONE child, if any at all...
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That's what I meant. I didn't realize you were referencing the fact that Lithuania has the highest suicide rate going now. Sorry about that.
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They cant get enough iphones?
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Wasn't Palin (before she quit) recently found to be innocent of all those charges?
As for Dems...what about Charlie Rangel (sp?) the New York fellow, who was in trouble for tax problems in the Bahamas I think? The recent rash of Dem's that had to withdraw from comi
Re:Poor guy... (Score:4, Insightful)
Wait, how do weird fetishes disqualify someone from government appointments?
Hell, in the good ol' Roman days...
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surely you're not saying that millions of people having their idenity stolen is as important as apple's potential lost profits...