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Microsoft

Microsoft To Abandon Windows Phone? 505

Posted by samzenpus
from the red-headed-step-child dept.
symbolset writes "Microsoft has had some trouble as of late getting adoption of their mobile products. Even Bill Gates has said it was inadequate. Despite rave reviews of Windows Phone in the press it has failed to get double digit share of the smartphone market. Now comes reports from WMPoweruser that WP8 will lose mainstream support in July 2014."
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Microsoft To Abandon Windows Phone?

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17, 2013 @05:50PM (#43199219)

    Er, that likely means they'll be on WP9. How long will Google update Android 3.x or even 4.0?

    Trololol samzenpuss, trololol.

    • by Sir_Sri (199544) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @06:08PM (#43199381)

      Probably longer than Windows phones will, but yes, given that the smartphone market is a ~2 year turnaround business that probably means they're freezing anything new for WP8 nowish, and by this time next year they'll be winding up anything WP8 specific and they'll have WP9 out the door (or 8.1 or whatever it ends up being).

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by fermion (181285)
      Given that MS has said it will release a new product every six months, and that MS seldom provides mainstream support for old product(read: new computers always are sold with current products), this is like the case. July 2014 will make current products two releases old. MS is likely only going to support current and previous release. Alternatively, it may be that by the end of the year all devices will be migrated to Windows RT.
    • by kelemvor4 (1980226) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @06:58PM (#43199687)

      Er, that likely means they'll be on WP9. How long will Google update Android 3.x or even 4.0?

      Trololol samzenpuss, trololol.

      Especially since MS has come out and said that all wp8 devices will be upgradable to wp9. It even says as much on TFA linked in TFS. Way to deliberately mislead readers, samzenpus. There's a career in politics somewhere out there for you.

    • by mystikkman (1487801) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @09:49PM (#43200411)

      Wow, I didn't think Slashdot could go lower but it just managed to do that.

      Next headline: MS to abandon Windows, because Windows XP support Ends April 8, 2014?

      Microsoft will make Windows Phone 9, in fact they even have people working on testing it.

      http://msftkitchen.com/windows-phone-9-testing-begins-also-windows-9-gets-a-mention-from-microsoft [msftkitchen.com]

      And Windows Phone 8 phones will be upgradeable.

      http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2416002,00.asp [pcmag.com]

      And Windows Phone is growing marketshare:

      http://wmpoweruser.com/italy-shows-their-windows-phone-strength-already-15-of-windows-phone-market/ [wmpoweruser.com]
      http://wmpoweruser.com/windows-phone-has-a-16-3-market-share-in-poland-one-of-the-highest-in-the-world/ [wmpoweruser.com]
      http://www.fiercewireless.com/europe/story/analyst-windows-phone-sees-strong-growth-uk-and-italy/2013-01-23 [fiercewireless.com]
      http://www.wpcentral.com/long-queues-china-nokia-lumia-920-sells-out-two-hours [wpcentral.com] [And yes, that's actually picture of people queuing for Windows Phone)

      Picking up some loyal users who seem to like it :
      http://wmpoweruser.com/pcmag-readers-choice-awards-2013-windows-phone-wins-mobile-os-category/ [wmpoweruser.com]
      http://www.ubergizmo.com/2013/01/customer-satisfaction-of-windows-phone-on-the-rise-according-to-survey/ [ubergizmo.com]

      And winning some awards
      http://www.wpcentral.com/nokia-lumia-920-struts-its-stuff-and-takes-prestigious-innovative-handset-award-2013 [wpcentral.com]
      http://wmpoweruser.com/nokia-lumia-920-wins-engadget-smartphone-of-2012-user-vote/ [wmpoweruser.com]

      And yet we have this bullshit FUD summary, headline and article? No wonder Slashdot is losing readership fast, with barely a few comments for stories compared to earlier.

      The partyline biased moderation, calling people with alternate viewpoints shills and chasing them away into karma hell can only last so long before the echo chamber gets tired of listening to itself and packs it up.

      Reminds me of this story http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/02/16/2259257/draconian-drm-revealed-in-windows-7 [slashdot.org]

      Even the mainstream tech media noticed that. Interesting read: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2009/02/oh-the-humanity-windows-7s-draconian-drm/ [arstechnica.com]

      I doubt any one would care now, with most people having written off Slashdot as the hiding place of anti-Microsoft trolls and zealots living in their alternate reality. Posters like bmo, symbolset, tuple666, Zero__Kelvin, LordLimeCat, Jeremiah Cornelius, UnknowingFool, rtfa-troll, binarylarry, MightyMartian, drinkypoo, pieroxy and a whole bunch of others have ruined Slashdot beyond repair and seem to suffer from this affliction: http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/07/25/1757253/linus-calls-microsoft-hatred-a-disease [slashdot.org]

  • by Omicron32 (646469) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @05:52PM (#43199235)
    Ridiculous headline title. All this means is they're going to be moving onto the next version of the OS by then (WP9?). Speculating that they're going to leave the phone market entirely is a little far-fetched at present.
    • by pablomme (1270790) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @06:00PM (#43199313)

      Ridiculous headline title.

      And a great example of Betteridge's law of headlines [wikipedia.org].

      • Betteridge's law of headlines is mentioned only in the articles that it fits.
        • by Dogtanian (588974) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @07:47PM (#43199957) Homepage

          And a great example of Betteridge's law of headlines [wikipedia.org].

          Betteridge's law of headlines is mentioned only in the articles that it fits.

          Not at all; while in the past I myself have criticised [slashdot.org] Slashdotters who assume that Betteridge automatically applies to *every* headline in the form of a question, this one *is* a case where the writer "knows the story is probably bollocks, and doesn't actually have the sources and facts to back it up, but still wants to run it".

          To nitpick, in this case the "story" is actually a (mis-)summary of others' stories that don't actually make this claim- which perhaps is what you meant- but IMHO the spirit in which Betteridge was clearly intended still applies.

    • by Moggyboy (949119) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @06:04PM (#43199347)
      I agree the headline title is sensational, but have you forgotten what "moving on to the next version of the OS" meant for us idiots who bought WP7 phones? Or for those of us who spent a couple of years skilling up in Silverlight? After the treatment we have been given over the last five years, I for one will not be buying another Microsoft product any time soon, and I would certainly not trust any assurance that WP8 phone owners will receive the next major version of the operating system. Will that new version retain your music collection? Your preferences? Your apps? Will the apps you've written still work? Who knows?!?
      • by unixisc (2429386) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @06:57PM (#43199681)

        While WP7 is different from WP8, WP8 is based on the common architecture of NT 6.2 which will be used as the basis of current and future Windows OSs. So while WP8 may have broken compatibility w/ 7, the same need not necessarily be true of WP 9 and beyond.

        I do agree that Microsoft should have had a way to upgrade WP7 phones w/ WP8. Although I wonder to what extent the carriers or OEMs (like Nokia) might have to say about that. For the OEMs, such an ability would simply mean that new phones not be bought, while for the carriers, it could involve unlocking the phones (which in the US would mean that a carrier, having financed a phone, now has to eat the costs while that phone can be used to switch to a competitor).

      • by jbolden (176878)

        WP 7 to WP8 was a major architectural shift. WP8 -> WP9 isn't going to be one.

        As for Silverlight, that wasn't good but that was a trauma for developers not end users.

        • by green1 (322787)

          As for Silverlight, that wasn't good but that was a trauma for developers not end users.

          I'm an end user, not a developer... and I really wish Silverlight would finally die. Unfortunately, no matter how many times we hear that it's going to vanish, some web developer decides to implement their brand new website in it. Unfortunately that means that us Linux users are out of luck.

          Obviously the people who trained up on Silverlight are making sure to get their money's worth, because I just can't seem to get away from it.

    • by Isca (550291) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @06:06PM (#43199361)
      From the original article:

      On the other hand the OS support date is reset with any never version of the OS, so a Windows Phone 8.5 or 9 update in November 2013 would bring along its own 18 month of security updates. Microsoft has already promised all current Windows Phone 8 handsets will receive the next major version of the operating system.

      8.5 comes this summer. Some of the phones released this summer are already being promised to work with 9.0 which comes out next summer. All windows phones will be able to update to the next version at least which then updates the security updates. Some phones will even go longer. This is not that much different from Android updates. I would speculate 3rd party unlocks will allow updating to 9 on the current 8 phones that the manufacturers don't update.
      • by the_B0fh (208483)

        There are two kinds of Androids. Nexus, and non-Nexus. Which ones get updates again?

        And when we are talking about market share, should we differentiate the two?

        • by 0123456 (636235)

          There are two kinds of Androids. Nexus, and non-Nexus. Which ones get updates again?

          Asus Transformers?

          Mostly seems to be the cheap, crap phones and tablets that don't get upgrades.

      • by Bogtha (906264)

        Some of the phones released this summer are already being promised to work with 9.0 which comes out next summer.

        This is not that much different from Android updates.

        I remember I bought a Sony Xperia Pro because Sony committed to upgrading all of their 2011 phones to Android 4.0. I waited over a year for that to happen, then finally switched to the iPhone a few months after Android 4.1 was released and Sony were still refusing to give any information on upgrades.

        Promises of upgrades are something e

    • All this means is they're going to be moving onto the next version of the OS by then (WP9?). Speculating that they're going to leave the phone market entirely is a little far-fetched at present.

      Is that not just the same thing.

    • by amiga3D (567632)

      The headline is FUD. I expect MS to sue over patent violation since I'm pretty sure they patented Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

      • by SEE (7681)

        Sorry, no, that's an old IBM patent from 1975 [catb.org]. Of course, Microsoft was able to use it under the business relationship they had with IBM. It seems to have been the main reason for the IBM-Microsoft alliance, since Microsoft ended the relationship when the patent expired in 1992, allowing them to use it freely.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17, 2013 @05:53PM (#43199237)

    Yes, WP8 will be abandoned... for WP8.5 or WP9.

  • by RightwingNutjob (1302813) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @05:53PM (#43199243)
    Microsoft is still dealing with the fact that their flagship products throughout the 1990's are almost universally associated with crashes, poor performance, and overhyped marketing. It bit them with the Zune, and now it's biting them with the phones. You know why XBox is so big? It doesn't have the word 'Windows' or 'Microsoft' in its name, and it had (still has?) its own business unit with its own management structure not tied to Windows.
    • by tuppe666 (904118) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @06:16PM (#43199437)

      Microsoft is still dealing with the fact that their flagship products throughout the 1990's are almost universally associated with crashes, poor performance, and overhyped marketing. It bit them with the Zune, and now it's biting them with the phones. You know why XBox is so big?

      Except the reality is Windows Phone [was] is not very good, [125 REASONS NOT TO BUY A WINDOWS PHONE 7.5 http://my-symbian.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44034%5D [my-symbian.com]. The harsh truth is it was never a serious competitor which will hurt Microsoft in the future, as its potential customers continue to get burnt....it will end up like the Zune.

      ...oh and the Xbox yeah it lost to last generation model, and drew with Sony who produced a product at what can only kindly be called premium, at the cost of Billions to the company.

      • by DogDude (805747) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @06:36PM (#43199543) Homepage
        The harsh truth is it was never a serious competitor which will hurt Microsoft in the future, as its potential customers continue to get burnt....it will end up like the Zune.

        Windows Phone 7.5 still works fine. Windows Phone 8.0 works even better (more features). I don't know anybody with a Windows Phone (myself included) that feels that they have gotten "burnt" from the product. Not that it's relevant anymore, but that link you provided wasn't exactly 100% accurate, either. Your "harsh truth" is really anything but.
        • by guttentag (313541)

          Windows Phone 7.5 still works fine. Windows Phone 8.0 works even better (more features). I don't know anybody with a Windows Phone (myself included) that feels that they have gotten "burnt" from the product.

          If your hand has been on the stove since Windows Phone 7.5, you've probably just damaged all your nerve endings so badly that you no longer feel your fingers burning. Do not confuse the absence of a burning sensation with a conclusion that you're not being burned. This is not meant to be a troll against MS, as this can happen in many different situations.

          Suggested Tests for Burning
          Try your other hand.
          Get some fresh air, then check for the oh-so-familiar "fried pussy cat" you smell when your cat chews

      • by rjch (544288)

        Except the reality is Windows Phone [was] is not very good, [125 REASONS NOT TO BUY A WINDOWS PHONE 7.5 http://my-symbian.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44034%5D [my-symbian.com].

        Referring us to the web site of a competitor's product to convince us that Windows mobile is not good is about as asinine as referring us to Microsoft's web site to prove that OSX is a bad operating system. They're not going to be impartial!

        Even if my-symbian.com isn't a site run by Nokia, it's going to be a site run by fanboys who are even less likely to be impartial.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by DogDude (805747)
      Microsoft is still dealing with the fact that their flagship products throughout the 1990's are almost universally associated with crashes, poor performance, and overhyped marketing. It bit them with the Zune, and now it's biting them with the phones.

      No, Windows Phone 8 is really good (I like it better than the other Big Two), and all of the reviews for it are almost universally very positive. Windows Phone 8 doesn't crash, doesn't have poor performance, or overyhyped marketing, as you say.
      • by Tom (822) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @06:42PM (#43199599) Homepage Journal

        You're misreading the quote you quoted. It doesn't say this is fact, it says this is image. Or, in other words, after the past experiences we've had with MS products, nobody sane would even consider buying a phone from them.

      • by dissy (172727) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @07:08PM (#43199753)

        I'm fairly certain the GP was not implying WP8 has any of those problems.
        He said Microsoft has an image problem due to previous products, which is very true.

        Older MS phones had a bad image, requiring reboots multiple times a day due to crashes and poor performance. Phones locking up when receiving calls, missing alarms, and the stylus interface that attempted to mirror the desktop on a teeny screen were all problems older WinCE phones had.

        Windows 95 was famous for not being able to function much longer than a month at a time without a reboot. All of the pre NT series of windows were very unstable, and were very insecure due to the chosen single user design.

        Both of those together created an image in the public mind that Microsoft products crash, are flaky, and can not be relied upon.

        Now, compare that to today. Windows 7 and 8 are pretty stable, and much much more secure than predecessors (irrespective to any comparison to their competition)
        As you say, WP8 has none of those older problems (I am taking your word for that, as I have no experience with windows phones since CE 6 - But at least they didn't stick to the desktop UI!)

        Neither of those facts has yet had enough time to change that older image that has been in place for over a decade. They may not until yet another decade has passed.

        Peoples purchasing decisions are not based on facts, at least not completely (or even mostly) - so such facts as how great the product actually is, is irrelevant.
        The facts from the past have tainted their image so much that purchasing decisions of today are being based on that instead.

        It may or may not be fair (which is a whole other discussion) but that is pretty much what is going on, and why sales are so low.
        It doesn't matter how great the product is today, what matters is their experience in the past and their personal limit on taking a chance of the same result again.

        Personally, if a person or company screws me over and has no remorse at doing so and no indication they want or will change, I refuse to have that person or company as a part of my life.
        If a person or company screws me over enough times, even with all the apologies in the world and the best of intentions, after a point I will be distancing myself from them more as well.

        It's much easier to convince someone to try something completely new, than it is to convince them to try something they have done before and had a bad experience with.

    • by interval1066 (668936) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @06:24PM (#43199479) Homepage Journal

      You know why XBox is so big? It doesn't have the word 'Windows' or 'Microsoft' in its name...

      You must be new to the world. Microsoft is still the leader in the desktop market, regardless of your opinion. The world is changing, however, and Microsoft isn't chaging with it as fast, I think this is their bigget problem. They smply weren't fast enough to attach to the moble market, and its bit them, hard. Your thing about crashing, etc... however is just hyperbole. Windows IS the desktop OS. Not too sure where you've been living...

      • by ADRA (37398)

        "They smply weren't fast enough to attach to the moble market, and its bit them, hard"

        Um, you mean the Microsoft that's been making smart phones for over a decade? That microsoft has been late to the party? Its not that they were late, its that they made devices that so few people wanted and for so much money, that the market balked at them and Apple / Android absoltely blew past them in a very short order. The iPhone 1 should've been a huge kick in their ass, and if they were as agile as they were in the 9

      • by Patch86 (1465427)

        Definitely true, but not bullet-proof. I remember not so long ago when Windows had 97% of the desktop market share, Mac had about 2%, and the rest scrambled over the last 1% (Linux clocking in somewhere like 0.5%). Now Mac is more like 10%, Linux is more like 2%. And that's obviously not counting the tablet market, which really is starting to converge with the mainstream desktop market (MS Surface Pro and RT are practically identical to each other, and only spitting distance from an Asus Transformer).

        Window

  • by DAldredge (2353) <SlashdotEmail@GMail.Com> on Sunday March 17, 2013 @05:54PM (#43199251) Journal
    On the other hand the OS support date is reset with any never version of the OS, so a Windows Phone 8.5 or 9 update in November 2013 would bring along its own 18 month of security updates. Microsoft has already promised all current Windows Phone 8 handsets will receive the next major version of the operating system.
    • On the other hand the OS support date is reset with any never version of the OS, so a Windows Phone 8.5 or 9 update in November 2013 would bring along its own 18 month of security updates. Microsoft has already promised all current Windows Phone 8 handsets will receive the next major version of the operating system.

      That must bring a great deal of comfort to those Windows Phone 7.x devices that are denied future OS updates...Did they pinky promise.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17, 2013 @05:54PM (#43199253)

    The article said they would be updated the system to a new version and that the new version would be pushed to all windows phones. That system would get security updates for 18 months. It sounds like they just want people to upgrade to me.

  • RTFA (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17, 2013 @05:54PM (#43199255)

    This posting looks like FUD, if you read the article it says.
    All window 8 phone devices will get new version of OS, which will have a 18 month support window.

    • by Tom (822)

      18 months sounds like an incredibly stupid length, though, given that most mobile phone carrier contracts are 24 months.

      • Re:RTFA (Score:5, Insightful)

        by guttentag (313541) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @08:54PM (#43200221) Journal

        18 months sounds like an incredibly stupid length, though, given that most mobile phone carrier contracts are 24 months.

        That's true, but my experience has been that they let you upgrade "early" after 21 months. In the U.S., the carrier and vendors want the thought bubble over your head to look like this:

        • Months 1-6: I have a shiny new phone!
        • Months 7-12: I have a dirty/cracked new phone!
        • Months 13-18: I have a dirty/cracked/scuffed phone that's been rooted by the Chinese/Russians but it's been patched so it's all good!
        • Months 19-21: This phone used to be cool, but now it send all my friends spearphishing emails, the battery life sucks, it can't display modern Web sites and it's not supported anymore! I need a new phone, but I can't get out of my contract. Need a new phone... need a new phone...
        • Months 22-24: I can upgrade early?!! Sweet! I'm getting a good deal here! Getting out of my old contract early and getting a new phone for next to nothing! What a coincidence that they offered this great deal just when I really needed it!

        They don't want you to get here (which is where I've been for the last 9 months):

        • Month 25-infinity: No more contract, and my phone still works just fine, so I can get my phone unlocked, hop carriers all I want and shop around for the best rates!
  • oh (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Nossie (753694) <IanHarvie@4DeCOF ... t minus caffeine> on Sunday March 17, 2013 @05:57PM (#43199283)

    oh christ was my first thought to that....

    I'm not a huge fan of Microsoft but I do feel for Nokia and the bus that their staff were thrown under.

    I'd be kinda surprised if this is true though, Microsoft are known for flaunting failed products for years to save face. This would be another reason to add to the list for why metro sucks ... it's pretty sad that the whole windows ecosystem was imho designed from the mobile up rather than an extension of the desktop.

    This sounds like FUD though and for once it's not coming out of Redmond.

    • re: it's pretty sad that the whole windows ecosystem was imho designed from the mobile up rather than an extension of the desktop.
      .
      And the sad thing with the latest iteration of the apple OS is that Mountain Lion has turned into an iOS-copy-fest rather than leaving in the features that make a desktop useful like scroll-bars that stay in place, and not having to fucking scroll in order to see the scroll bars in the first place. That is a serious fail, imho, and enough for me to tell my parents not to upgr
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 17, 2013 @05:57PM (#43199289)

    The article discusses dates on which Microsoft will end support for its current product, which is designed to be superseded on (at least) an annual basis. It doesn't mean that Microsoft plans to get out of the phone business, or will delegate software development to Nokia or Google, etc.

  • BS Article title (Score:2, Interesting)

    by blarkon (1712194)
    Article is about support for WP8 given that WP9 is coming out in a few months. And if you have a WP8 phone: "All current Windows Phone 8 handsets will receive the next major version of the operating system." Which is more than we can say for a substantial number of Android handsets, where the easiest way (besides rolling your own) to get the new version of Android is to buy the new phone as the vendor probably won't update the current handset.
  • Seriously? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Rytr23 (704409) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @06:40PM (#43199573)
    Look, I know most of the folks frequenting /. are ardently anti-MS (Hence all the clever usage of a $ instead of the 'S'), but this is really an embarrassing attempt at click bait. It isn't in the realm of truth and feel sorry for the poster and the people jumping on board with it to fuel some frothing Anti-MS rage or resentment at some perceived slight. Slashdot is poorer this.
  • by Mawen (317927) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @06:45PM (#43199619) Journal

    There is sensationalistic journalism, and then there is blatantly misleading journalism. This is the latter.

    Assuming /. wants to be taken seriously, someone's wrist should be slapped for this and/or the headline updated.

  • by John Hasler (414242) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @06:59PM (#43199693) Homepage

    ...the year of Windows on the smartphone.

  • 520 and 720 (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jbolden (176878) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @07:33PM (#43199873) Homepage

    Nokia alone is doing

    35m for 2012
    55m for 2013
    85m for 2014

    HTC did another 12m or so in 2012 and is expecting growth.

    Carriers pushed through huge subsidies all during 2012 and Verizon continues to see Microsoft as key to their business strategy.

    What sort of product doing 40% year-over-year growth, good reviews, moderate or better OEM support, so or better developer support, and a good fit for Microsoft strategy gets cancelled?

    This article sounds like flamebait to me.

  • by Torodung (31985) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @09:02PM (#43200245) Journal

    As near as I can divine, Microsoft is no longer going to ship service packs like they did with Vista and prior. Windows 7 is probably only getting service pack 1. Windows 8 basically is SP2. Windows 9 will be SP3. They are on an incremental release cycle, like Apple's OSX, and all those Windows 8 phones might possibly be running Windows Phone 10 by 2015.

    Now, they will be nickel-and-diming you for the desktop OS ($40 CHEAP!), but it might not be the case with phones, especially subsidized phones on contract where all the licensing is handled by the carrier. Also something I'm keen to see, Microsoft does not have a great track record with delivering incremental upgrades that don't crater *recent* old hardware, so it'll be interesting to see if they change their ways in that respect.

    But the headline and summary is just a FUD encounter of the fourth kind: FUDabduction.

  • by David_Hart (1184661) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @09:02PM (#43200247)

    Microsoft has already stated that they are moving towards a faster update cycle for all of their software products. All this means is that there will be no new OS updates for WP8.0 after July 2014. They will have 8.5 or 9.0 out before that date.

    BTW, Google has the EXACT same upgrade/support cycle for each version of Android (18 months).

    I expect more than this from the Slashdot editors!!! After all, they are supposed to at least understand the tech industry which includes software update/support cycles.....

  • by erroneus (253617) on Sunday March 17, 2013 @09:09PM (#43200261) Homepage

    Microsoft has abused its locked-in public for far too long; failed to fix things which were important to users, forced "upgrades" onto business. They abused their monopoly power to everyone's annoyance... even the developers, developers, developers.

    Is it any wonder why, when Microsoft decides to expand into a market they were too late for, that they couldn't draw any fans (because there are none) or developers or anyone? You can only buy so much, but you can't buy customers ... well you can to a degree, but you can't pay them enough to suffer through more Microsoft than they already have to.

    I remember long ago.. Windows95... I was excited. Windows98. Still excited. They were good and popular because anyone could get it... piracy was part of their market share and part of their marketing plan. Once they had full control, the turned on "genuine advantage" and here we are.

    Fool me once, Microsoft, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.

I've got all the money I'll ever need if I die by 4 o'clock. -- Henny Youngman

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