'Wi-Fi Illness' Spreads To Ontario Public Schools 663
Posted
by
timothy
from the puberty-has-similar-symptoms dept.
from the puberty-has-similar-symptoms dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Readers of Slashdot might be familiar with Lakehead University's ban on WiFi routers a few years ago in Thunder Bay, Ontario because of 'health concerns,' a policy apparently still in effect. Now it seems a group of concerned parents in a number of communities in Ontario have petitioned the local school boards over similar concerns at public schools, where their kids are apparently experiencing 'headaches to dizziness and nausea and even racing heart rates' — symptoms that appear only when they are in school on weekdays, not on weekends at home. 'The symptoms, which also include memory loss, trouble concentrating, skin rashes, hyperactivity, night sweats and insomnia, have been reported in 14 Ontario schools in Barrie, Bradford, Collingwood, Orillia and Wasaga Beach since the board decided to go wireless ...' Besides Wi-Fi signals, could there possibly be any other logical explanation for kids having more symptoms of illness on school days than at home on weekends or in the summer?"
Mod the summary funny (Score:5, Insightful)
"Besides Wi-Fi signals, could there possibly be any other logical explanation for kids having more symptoms of illness on school days than at home on weekends or in the summer?"
Um, being in school doesn't count as a reason?
WiFi at home? (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't people in Canada have WiFi at home? Surely if the illness was WiFi related they'd be suffering at home, in cities, on planes, or any other populated place?
Hmmm.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Could there be any other explanation? Uh, well of course. Schools are hotbeds of spreading sickness, this is nothing new. For this to really mean something, how about they look at places that have a lot of wifi going on without all the germ spreading. Maybe they could look at dense urban areas that have a lot of wifi yet everyone lives in their own apartment and aren't picking their nose and then getting a drink from the water fountain.
School boards are so.... Yea.
GODDAMN IPHONES??? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm at school i am sick (Score:4, Insightful)
The symptoms, which also include memory loss, trouble concentrating, skin rashes, hyperactivity, night sweats and insomnia
Thats funny I read about this as a kid.
'I cannot go to school today, ' Said little Peggy Ann McKay. 'I have the measles and the mumps, A gash, a rash and purple bumps. My mouth is wet, my throat is dry, I'm going blind in my right eye. My tonsils are as big as rocks, I've counted sixteen chicken pox And there's one more-that's seventeen, And don't you think my face looks green? My leg is cut-my eyes are blue- It might be instamatic flu. I cough and sneeze and gasp and choke, I'm sure that my left leg is broke- My hip hurts when I move my chin, My belly button's caving in, My back is wrenched, my ankle's sprained, My 'pendix pains each time it rains. My nose is cold, my toes are numb. I have a sliver in my thumb. My neck is stiff, my voice is weak, I hardly whisper when I speak. My tongue is filling up my mouth, I think my hair is falling out. My elbow's bent, my spine ain't straight, My temperature is one-o-eight. My brain is shrunk, I cannot hear, There is a hole inside my ear. I have a hangnail, and my heart is-what? What's that? What's that you say? You say today is...Saturday? G'bye, I'm going out to play! ' Shel Silverstein
Ridiculous (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes (Score:5, Insightful)
"Besides Wi-Fi signals, could there possibly be any other logical explanation for kids having more symptoms of illness on school days than at home on weekends or in the summer?"
Yes, it is called "Believing shit that isn't real." Our minds can have powerful effects on our bodies and in particular on how we feel, since ultimately the mind is what does the feeling. So people believe that something causes a given set of symptoms, thus they experience those symptoms.
Happens all the time with the WiFi types. People have been up on the evils of "radiation" for a long time, WiFi is just their newest target.
Personally what I think the school needs to do is this: Tell people "Ok, for the next two weeks we are shutting down WiFi, you let us know if you get any better." However don't actually shut it off. Have the APs stop broadcasting SIDs and accepting connections, but leave the radios broadcasting at full power. Then after that say "Ok we are turning back on now, in a test mode, no data for two weeks. tell us if you feel worse." At this point shut the APs down completely.
At the end, when people say that during the "off" time they were fine and during the "on" time the problems came back, you get to reveal the test results and say STFU.
Seriously, if there is something to this WiFi thing how come we can't get any laboratory results on it? The answer to that is because there is nothing to it, it is all in the heads of the people who allegedly have the problems.
Just like cell phones (Score:1, Insightful)
Does this happen on Test Days (Score:1, Insightful)
Hmmm... I have 3 WiFi routers at home and have never been sick, Schools are also a hotbed for excuses. Starting with "My dog ate my homework" and now evolving into "The WiFi made me forget"
-Keith M
(Too lazy to sign up for an account)
Predictable (Score:5, Insightful)
How much do you want to bet that these concerned parents are credulous proponents of alternative medicine?
I can imagine their rapt attention at reading how much danger their kids are in, and they trust someone with MD after their name (as if it's not a diploma mill degree anyway) more than an engineer or physicist.
This whole subject is dominated by that folk etymology mentality where something that sounds smart and appeals to an aging housewife's intuition gets spread around at bridge games and finds its way into Reader's Digest or whatever checkout aisle trash they flip through on the toilet these days.
Re:Ridiculous (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe the kids are munching on Chinese routers while swimming in a contaminated pool? But seriously though, those all sound like classic symptoms of public school in general. I suffered most of them myself when I was in school, and the 802.11 standard wasn't published until about the time I started high school, and I didn't start to think of it as commonplace until a actually fairly recently (like, last 5-6 years or so). We certainly didn't have any APs in my school.
It's probably mold... or the soul-crushing depression of academic slavery.
Most likely... (Score:1, Insightful)
Stress.
Sick building syndrome. (newer buildings this may be a real issue)
Kids want out of school and will lie about anything to get out.
You infected your kid with hypochondria.
Your kid is weak and the world is gonna kill him.
But wifi? really? mmmmmmmmm no. Maybe those kids should stay in school for a little more of science class and learn why this is COMPLETE BULLSHIT.
Re:It's Black Mold (Score:2, Insightful)
"Sounds like x, I read that it matches the symptoms perfectly" is exactly what produced this crap in the first place.
Whats wrong with the children? (Score:5, Insightful)
My guess, it's the parents. The parents want the children to be sick and press/force it upon the children to be sick. Its a common incident in lawsuits.
Parent: "Its ok, just tell me that your getting sick from the stuff at school. You don't need to hide it, just tell me."
Child: "But I'm fine, nothings wrong."
Parent: "Please, you shouldn't bottle these things up. Just tell me that its making you sick and I'll make it stop. Now please, don't hide these things from me."
Child: "But there really isn't anything wrong."
Parent: "Now we've talked about this, you don't need to keep secrets from me. Just tell me its making you sick because I know it is. So just be honest and go ahead and tell me its making you sick and then we can go have ice cream. And then we can talk to everyone about this because they will like to hear what you have to say."
Child after hearing they will get a reward and lots of positive attention for agreeing to claim it makes them sick: "Yes mommy, it makes me feel really ill and sick. Can we have that ice cream now?"
Keep instilling that its making them sick after a while mind over matter will happen and you'll have a child with a minor form of hypochondria that will claim its the school since they are getting rewards for it and lots of positive attention, the two things most children want it abundance.
Re:Hmmm.... (Score:2, Insightful)
NO: nothing... (except possible pheromones) (Score:0, Insightful)
Obviously it's the Wifi. There's nothing else on earth that's ever caused these symptoms in anyone, especially teenagers.
So, why are the /. interested? Is the mere mention of 'technology' enough to exceed the threshold of importance?
(Has Slashdot become a sewing circle?)
Re:Mod the summary funny (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately it overshadows a real problem. I felt crippling anxiety in school for 10 years (dropped out when I was old enough) and it was a waste of a good childhood. There are real reasons kids can feel this way. It doesn't have to be excuses, even if that was the easy thing to blame my problems on.
Of course WiFi didn't exist back then so it wasn't that, but I can understand how kids would feel awful at school and fine at home.
School can be a very uncomfortable place to be in, and an almost impossible place to learn in.
Sick School Syndrome? (Score:4, Insightful)
Danger (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:It's Black Mold (Score:5, Insightful)
Mold my butt. If the kids are getting sick from radio waves, take away their cell phones. That'll cure'm quick!
Re:Predictable (Score:0, Insightful)
MD is a diploma mill degree? You don't know crap. Getting into medical school is very competitive and you have to spend four years on a bach degree, spend tons of time on extracurricular activities, and finally spend thousands of dollars applying/interviewing. Then you get to spend four years in medical school and a few more in a residency. Seriously, get fucked peach rings. Retard.
Re:What about caffeine? (Score:3, Insightful)
As a physician I would venture that not only caffeine but pretty much anything can produce those symptoms. That is why they're called "non specific symptoms". Of course this reminds me of the guy who claimed to be ill from signals coming from a cell phone tower, only to discover that the cell phone tower in question hadn't actually been turned on for the past 12 months...
Seriously, there are a lot of sick people. However sadly there are also people who claim to be sick in order to obtain a secondary benefit. These people can be understood in that, for whatever reason, they feel that malingering is the easiest way to get what they want. Unfortunately they tie up health resources that could be used to help those who are really sick when they do so.
Re:Turn off the wifi.. (Score:4, Insightful)
But to be a fair experiment, you'd have to conceal the fact that the wi-fi is turned off from the children. The reason for this is that the most likely cause of all the illness is children feigning it to get of school.
Re:Are you fucking kidding me? (Score:1, Insightful)
No.
Re:Hmmm.... (Score:3, Insightful)
...and you are one of them, with your FUD about schools being hotbeds of sickness and filthy lucre.
Wow, you're serious. I worked in a school for four years. Never have I contracted more passing illnesses in my life. I have a strong immune system and am in relatively good shape for my age. Maybe the FUD you infer is that of your perception. I'm simply stating facts. Schools are places where germs get spread. Just like airports, hospitals, and other places where a lot of people congregate. Get off the conspiracy wagon and look at a post objectively for once.
For the record, I follow George Carlin's advice. The only reason I wash my hands after going to the bathroom (unless I'm cooking or something, mind you) is when I shit on them.
Re:It's Black Mold (Score:5, Insightful)
If that were the case, the teachers and staff - who are exposed a lot more - would be getting symptoms too.
Here's a really easy test: Turn off all the wireless routers in the building and keep it a secret from the children and parents as best you can.
$5 says nothing will change.
=Smidge=
At home they must all use corded phones too... (Score:4, Insightful)
...otherwise many of their cordless phones would be emitting the same "wifi" signals that wireless routers do.
Perhaps the children are suffering from stress caused by video game, Internet, phone, and texting withdrawals at school.
Re:Mod the summary funny (Score:5, Insightful)
I can understand how kids would feel awful at school and fine at home.
Hear, hear!
I'm convinced that forcing children to sit and pay attention for hours on end is a lousy way to teach them anything at all. Kids are naturally curious, but schooling makes far too many of them hate learning.
-jcr
Or, perhaps the other way around (Score:4, Insightful)
Kids don't want to go to school. I know I didn't when I was a kid and I was even good at school. I was always happy for an excuse to stay home from school. Didn't often work for me, since mom was a teacher and fairly clever, but still.
So kid doesn't want to go to school says "But mom, I feel sick!" and make up some symptoms. Mom says ok and lets them stay home. Mom notices that these symptoms only happen when the kid has been going to school. Never on the weekend, never during summer. Mom goes and looks them up online, rather than asking a doctor, and finds the anti-WiFi nutters. She says "Oh my god, this must be it!" The kid, of course, latches on to it as it means less time in school.
I'm sure it is a combination of these two as well as others (like kids who legitimately feel like crap in school because of stress). It all adds up to a manufactured panic about WiFi.
Hell maybe I should get in on this! In recent years, as WiFi has rolled out all over work, I've had less energy than I used to. I am tired easier, and seem to just be over all a bit slower than I was. Not drastic, but noticeable. Must be the WiFi... ...
or maybe the fact that I'm 30, and have gained weight. Nah, couldn't be that, must be the WiFi.
Re:It's Black Mold (Score:5, Insightful)
No it isn't. The difference is in whether x is a real thing or not.
Re:It's Black Mold (Score:3, Insightful)
Both when I was in college and now at my work place, there's externally mounted Cisco devices with high gain antennas mounted to the walls.
This is seriously bad medical House, M.D. style logic, but, there's a thin veneer of plausibility that if you drill holes into a wall full of black mold, the mold may be getting out through those holes.
I bet there aren't many buildings which are bad enough to have walls full of black mold, yet are airtight enough so that drilling a few extra holes into the interior walls will make any big difference in the amount of spores getting into the breathing air. Note that ventilation and wind will cause a pressure difference that will move air through the walls, it's only a matter of how much, because there are always holes and cracks in any regular house wall.
Re:Yes (Score:3, Insightful)
The only problem with that scenario is if they still reported feeling ill. Then if you admit that the WiFi was on, the response will be "Aha, that proves it was the WiFi!", fully accepted even with the logical inconsistencies.
When all along it was a mold problem, or some other. Of course the next week the evil WiFi will be removed, the symptoms continue and a new RF culprit is put in the crosshairs.
I think there should be a mainstream term for how people react to situations like this, junk science is too cliched. Let's call it either "knee-jerk science" or "witch-hunt science". Akin to Feynman's cargo cult.
Re:WiFi at home? (Burden of Proof) (Score:5, Insightful)
And people wonder why education gets worse. These damn parents are so sue happy, they just attack attack attack the schools every damn opportunity that presents itself. So the schools become so hamstrung in bureaucratic idiocy that they are afraid to do anything because some snot-nose little johnny's parents might sue.
This. Two things. Taking personal responsibility and the scientific method. The sooner society actually adopts these two solid mentalities, the better off we all will be. Until then this world will continue to be run amok by victimized-its-not-my-fault-blame-the-world-can-i-get-some-money-too asshats.
End rant.
Re:Mod the summary funny (Score:2, Insightful)
As the AC submitter, yeah, I didn't want to demean *actual* illnesses or other challenges of learning in the school environment -- as far as I'm concerned what these kids are experiencing *could* very well be real, and if so it is potentially serious. I probably shouldn't have been so snide about it. The thing that bothers me is that if these kids are genuinely ill they won't be getting proper treatment while they, their parents, and the school boards are chasing "wi-fi illness fairies" for which the evidence is meager (to say the least).
The logical thing to do is a double-blind test. It would settle the matter in a couple of weeks. And if the kids are ill *regardless* of whether the wi-fi is turned on or not, then, yeah, they may need treatment and the school environment may have a serious problem, but it means they are definitely looking at the wrong cause for it. Maybe it's mold? Maybe it's a bacterial infection in the air conditioning? Or something in the water? So, they should stop fooling around and do something. There are lots of possible legitimate reasons for illness including exactly the type of anxiety you describe. There are some treatments and mitigations for that.
And, of course, you have to consider the possibility some of the reasons might not be legitimate (I can think of LOTS of those), but start on the assumption the illnesses are legitimate and work from there. What I can't understand is why these parents jump to the conclusion that "obviously it must be the wi-fi". Why? With all sorts of other possible reasons, why on Earth pick that?
Re:Mod the summary funny (Score:5, Insightful)
School is bad, but better than the alternative. So rather than using its problems as a reason to destroy it, its problems should be addressed to improve it.
Re:Hmmm.... (Score:2, Insightful)
I am living in Barrie Ontario right now and I'm telling you Yuppies are the last thing you are going to see around here...
Are they that dangerous?
Re:NO: nothing... (except possible pheromones) (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It's Black Mold (Score:3, Insightful)
Mold my butt. If the kids are getting sick from radio waves, take away their cell phones. That'll cure'm quick!
No shit. Have a tech bring a spectrum analyzer in and end the discussion once and for all. Odds are, they're getting a hell of a lot more exposure to ionizing radiation from the cell phones they have jammed into the sides of their pretty little heads that from some roof-mounted WAP that's fifty or sixty feet away.
... not because they're feeling ill, they'll get over that, but because they're being raised by morons.
I feel sorry for the kids, I really do
Re:WiFi at home? (Score:3, Insightful)
Take three of the schools. In school 1, have an IT guy totally turn off the WiFi without telling anyone. In school 2, have the same IT guy say that he's turning off the WiFi, but have it go black and broadcast just as much as usual. In school 3, blanket the parents with information that the WiFi is being shut off, then don't change a thing. Take a look at what effects this has on student / parent complaints.
Re:Mod the summary funny (Score:5, Insightful)
"I think that on the off-chance the kids aren't faking it (and really, who hasn't done it at some time in their youth) their parents are doing them a disservice by simply trying to blame it on WiFi."
I am surprised that the principals of the schools didn't rule things out by themselves. Start by polling the STUDENTS (specifically NOT the parents) while the Wi-Fi is up and running, then simply shut it off for a month and repeat the poll. Do the students feel better? Do they miss the Wi-Fi? Does school still suck? Are their parents full of shit?
And what about Wi-Fi in the home environment? Was that taken into account? None of these households use wireless? I find that hard to believe.
I get the feeling there is some underlying factor to the debate...like a paranoid mother that got the PTA all worked up, or something to that effect.
Re:WiFi at home? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Mod the summary funny (Score:3, Insightful)
[blockquote]Why are you convinced that schooling is the only way that someone can obtain an education?[/quote]
Maybe you're being intentionally obtuse, but I'll reply anyway. He's not saying that "someone" can't be educated another way, it's just that all those other ways also generate a large number of completely uneducated people that you don't get by the current system.
Re:Mod the summary funny (Score:3, Insightful)
Students aren't in any position to reform the system, so sabotage, by one means or another, is their only reasonable response. Many teachers seem to feel equally incapable, but they have a few other choices.
(It's unfair to expect every teacher to start a Summerhill, or John Woolman, or other alternative school. But they could change jobs. Given how poorly they are normally treated, I'm surprised that they don't all quit after their first year.)
But for children...just how to you propose that they should fix the problem.
Re:Mod the summary funny (Score:2, Insightful)
True, and this is where family members (immediate or extended), friends, clergy, and others can help a child learn the self-direction and discipline to learn on his own.
Thank you! I was waiting for someone to mention that conscription children into starter prison isn't the only conceivable way to achieve the ostensible goals in question.
-jcr
Re:Mod the summary funny (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, growing up is an excellent alternative, which government schooling tries to retard as much as possible. They reward docility, and penalize initiative and independence.
-jcr
Re:Mod the summary funny (Score:5, Insightful)
Knowing what I know now, I can see all kinds of ways that I could have put that time to better use
Had you spent your time in Information Technology 101 class better, you'd have know you don't need to sign or initial posts on message boards when your name is clearly displayed at the top.
But hey, we'll let it slide ... no matter how much it irritates the fuck out of us.
Re:Mod the summary funny (Score:5, Insightful)
Too much water is bad for you, period. See also water intoxication [wikipedia.org]. See, there, for all you who think alcohol is evil, you can get drunk on water, too.
Distilled water is worse as a thirst quencher after heavy exercise because it contains no electrolytes to replenish what you lost in sweat. No big deal, as most of us get way too much salt in the rest of our diets anyway, but it is worth noting in case you are one of the three people on Earth who doesn't over-salt everything.
As for the taste, it depends on what you're comparing it against. There's not a huge difference between well-filtered water (e.g. Aquafina) and distilled water (e.g. the grocery store jugs). There is, however, a huge difference between unfiltered or coarsely filtered water and distilled water. For example, to me, Arrowhead water tastes noticeably worse than more filtered brands, presumably because of the dissolved minerals. Other people prefer that taste. And there are many varieties that are somewhere in the middle. For example, Dasani uses filtration and then adds certain minerals back in. SmartWater distills the water and then adds salts back in. And so on. Everybody has their own preference, and as far as health goes, it makes little difference given that the vast majority of the minerals you consume come from the foods you eat rather than from the water you drink or cook foods in.
Re:Mod the summary funny (Score:3, Insightful)
You get plenty of those from food. Tap water is not an important source of minerals, save for iodine perhaps, unless you're on a water diet, that is.You get about half a gram of potassium from a single banana. Try adding the equivalent of that in a potassium salt to a glass of water and see how it tastes ;)
riiiight (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Mod the summary funny (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course it's believable what isn't believable it that someone could be so stupid as to not know that large fish have high mercury levels. Especially if they decided to eat large amounts of it.
Re:Mod the summary funny (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Mod the summary funny (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Mod the summary funny (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Mod the summary funny (Score:5, Insightful)
Other than eating Tuna in a can, my exposure to fish has been extremely limited in my lifetime. I don't eat fish or seafood, I don't eat Sushi, I don't live near the coast.
And yet 'in an effort to lose weight' you went on a tuna based diet, without consulting a doctor. To reiterate you'd never eaten seafood, your family doesn't eat seafood, your friends don't eat seafood, and yet you were willing to switch to a seafood based diet on a whim. Yeah I've made some assumptions, but given what you've told us they're probably not far off.
I'm somewhat sympathetic to the idea that you weren't able to afford a doctor (strange country!). But trying out a fad diet (on whose recommendation?) without getting any more information than the necessarily limited amount present on a label seems a little rash. It doesn't deserve getting called an idiot over, but it's not the smartest move.
Re:Mod the summary funny (Score:5, Insightful)
Distilled water is rather aggressive when it comes to dissolving minerals. Since it doesn't have any dissolved in it when you imbibe it, it just takes them from your body. It's basically an exaggeration of the difference between drinking water and isotonic beverages when you're exercising.
Hmmm, More likely (Score:2, Insightful)
It is the disgustingly toxic school food, pesticides, lead paint, asbestos, or poor treatment by faculty that cause these symptoms. Or the water that tastes like piss out of drinking fountains, or the treatment like prisoners for no reason. Enough to drive anyone to experience psychosomatic effects and lose all motivation and drive to live.
They say all children profile like psychopaths before they leave high school. I can tell you why, anyone living in the bullshit environment forced unto people until they are legally an adult will drive you fucking nuts. Did that maybe ever occur to anyone? That metal detectors, fully armed sherifs and security guards authorized to use force every 10 feet? Or maybe it is the getting thrown in a cold dark room for a week because you got beaten up, and zero tolerance says that counts as a violent offence? Maybe being forced to memorize out of context information out of logical order and without being taught its applications or purpose? Maybe if schools actually treated students like people, instead of monsters, maybe if schools taught information in a logical order, and taught it, instead of forcing meaningless memorization, maybe, if schools actually provided half way decent meals for the price, or water that didn't make your stomach hurt, or didn't make you dress in an oddly specific arbitrary fashion. Maybe then it wouldn't be such fucking hell. Maybe then the children would actually be able to think, feel, and learn. But like that will ever happen.
Re:Yes (Score:3, Insightful)
At the end, when people say that during the "off" time they were fine and during the "on" time the problems came back, you get to reveal the test results and say STFU.
Seriously, if there is something to this WiFi thing how come we can't get any laboratory results on it? The answer to that is because there is nothing to it, it is all in the heads of the people who allegedly have the problems.
The only reason nobody's done this is because they don't fancy the political implications of publicly proving beyond any shadow of a doubt that the people complaining are neurotic fools. Even if you're not in a position where your job is elected regularly, the chances are you ultimately report to someone whose job is up for re-election.
Re:Mod the summary funny (Score:3, Insightful)
About 50% of all marriages end in divorce.
What do the other 50% end in?
Misery?