Some LA Coffee Shops Are Taking Wi-Fi Off the Menu 312
As New York is putting Wi-Fi on wheels, reader Hugh Pickens notes a counter trend in Los Angeles coffee shops. (We remarked on a similar backlash in Seattle in 2005.) "Coffee shops were the retail pioneers of Wi-Fi, but Jessica Guynn reports in the LA Times that now some owners are pulling the plug after finding that Wi-Fi freeloaders who camp out all day nursing a single cup of coffee are a drain on the bottom line. Other owners strive to preserve a friendly vibe and keep their establishments from turning into 'Matrix'-like zombie shacks where people type and don't talk. 'There is now a market niche for not having Wi-Fi,' says Bryant Simon. After Dan and Nathalie Drozdenko turned off the Wi-Fi at their Los Angeles cafe, the complaints poured in, but so did the compliments: Lots of customers appreciated a wireless cup of joe at the Downbeat Cafe, a popular lunch spot in Echo Park. 'People come here because we don't offer it. They know they can get their work done and not get distracted.'"
Coffee culture (Score:5, Interesting)
I have not been too keen to spend my day hanging out in the coffee shop just to browse the internet. It always has seemed like an odd fit to me, similar to fishing and collating.
Now if they had someone playing light jazz and maybe a collection of weird art books that would be really cool.
I can only agree... (Score:3, Interesting)
Going to a coffee shop to find every place being used all evening by single persons with their laptop and a cup of coffee (that's most likely cold by then) is really frustrating. It's probably even more frustrating to the owner who sees is investment monopolized by clients that bring only little income to the place.
But I think the summary went totally off track by associating wireless network access in coffee shops with global city-wide wireless network access. Once you have global wireless networks, the need for local public networks is obviously much reduced. Furthermore, having a global city-wide network may even limit the problem forcing coffee shops to removed their local wireless network. On the other hand, it may then affect establishments the willingly refused to have wireless network access. In the end, it's really difficult to state that one is a counter-trend to the other.
Re:Fee Wi-Fi are a drain on the bottom line? (Score:3, Interesting)
I wonder why they just don't put some custom software in the router to block a specific MAC after X amount of time? Give people their cake and eat it too so to speak...
Re:Fee Wi-Fi are a drain on the bottom line? (Score:5, Interesting)
You could go with some sort of captive-portal system, which just starts redirecting all your traffic to a login page, which you could escape by typing in a code printed on your order printout, good for X time after the order was logged. Not frictionless; but would prevent freeloading.
"Atmosphere" is another matter; but that probably has to be solved socially, not technologically.
Re:They just need to treat it like it's a privileg (Score:5, Interesting)
Or instead of the "you have x minutes left" counters that get displayed in a web page on some hotspots, have a "more coffee" button, that places your order at the till to be delivered to you at your table. I like this idea.
Re:They just need to treat it like it's a privileg (Score:5, Interesting)
1. BK is a major chain corporation, economies of scale and whatnot. Per retail establishment, the cost was probably near peanuts to integrate the code printing into the POS software, and the code verification into the captive portal on the wifi, and so forth. For Jimmy's Indie Brewz, locations 1, the wifi is probably just some router on a DSL line. Integrating a code system would either mean forking over $$$$ to his POS vendor, if they even offer that, or hoping that his cousin is one of those "linux hackers".
2. Indie coffee shops obviously aren't immune to economics, and need to make sales to survive; but part of their appeal is "atmosphere". Any system that mires the customers in codes and makes explicit the subsidy of the wifi by the coffee has the potential to degrade the perceived atmosphere. What they really want is for freeloaders to feel social pressure, from disapproving patrons that surround them, and move along. Unfortunately for them, either the freeloaders don't care about nasty looks, or the availability of an open AP creates a critical mass of freeloaders that impose their own social norms, rendering them immune to other customers. BK isn't aiming to give you the warm and fuzzies, they just want you in, eating, and out, so they needn't be as concerned.
Re:They just need to treat it like it's a privileg (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd imagine as well as the points in the rest of this thread another reason for wifi decline is a) the economy means that any business cost that doesn't bring in a profit gets squeezed, and also the risk of an unidentified customer doing something naughty with the internet connection and the coffee shop being prosecuted for it.
Re:right over their heads (Score:1, Interesting)
Who the hell goes to a noisy distraction filled coffee shop to "work"? I mean seriously.
I also find it funny that they want and expect people to hang out and work for hours on end but then get mad when people do it. You can't have it both ways idiots.
How about the stores do it right? (Score:4, Interesting)
If all you added was a Linksys wifi AP then you deserve to have a freeloader there in your store. Quit being a cheap bastard and buy a Real captive portal setup that when the customer buy's their Double caf-decaf soy latte they get a code on the receipt that gives them 1 hour. That's more than enough time. Now your freeloaders have to buy something once an hour to stay online.
Problem is most of these coffee shop owners are cheap bastards that balk at the cost of a proper setup that would work fine for the next 5 years. If they cant cheap out with a $59.00 toy and have cousin timmy who is handy with 'puters do it for free, they dont want it.
They will discover what many here have... Drop the wifi they lose a lot of customers.
Solutions for PIN based time allocations? (Score:3, Interesting)
I think this is a fair compromise.
Another solution I had once considered was having times when you could use wi-fi freely and others when there are more customers you have to chip in either by buying a coffee or paying for the connection. It may work, but some people I have spoken too worry that this may end up being too confusing to actually work.
On the subject of PIN based wireless internet, with time limitations, are there any solutions out there that are either available off the shelf or via something like OpenWRT?
Re:".. and not get distracted." (Score:4, Interesting)
They have wifi at Felber's, a neighborhood redneck bar in the ghetto (Springfield is wierd), and I take my netbook there all the time. Talk about distraction, drunk construction workers can get pretty loud. But the biggest distraction is people seeing me use the computer. "You can get on the internet with that? How do you do it? Do you have to have internet at home? That's the smallest computer I ever saw. What did you pay for that? Hey, can you get pictures of naked women?"
This isn't much of a coffee-shop town, especially my neighborhood. TFS looked like the coffee shop owners said the computers were distracting... I don't see how unless they're not using headphones and have the volume turned all the way up on youtube.
Greed + Restaurant = FAILURE (Score:5, Interesting)
Every time I see a restaurant cut Wi-Fi, they go out of business in six to eight months. Most often it's because the owners are delusional about how many turns a WiFi camper is preventing. By delusional, I mean 10-15 turns (which amounts to about $150-250 in revenue) instead of 1-2 turns (which is about $10-$20). The rest of the time, it's because something else has gone incredibly wrong, and the hired help is blaming WiFi instead of their toxic customer service and/or bad kitchen management.
So instead of focusing on why traffic is down, the owner attacks the WiFi using regulars, who never come back, and never bring their friends, and never will say anything good about you. WiFi campers are regulars, so it's a lot like tossing Norm, Fraiser and Cliff out of Cheers because they aren't drinking enough. Regulars are important because they bring in others.
Also, where camping is a real problem, all that is required is a manager willing to have a polite conversation with the customer: "Would you mind coming back when we're not as busy? I've got six groups waiting for a seat, and well, I hate to ask... but we really need your table so we can get the line down. Would you mind?" The answer is nearly always, "Sure, and I really appreciate you having WiFi."
Re:They just need to treat it like it's a privileg (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not going to care, as a business owner, if ultra cheapass wants to mooch wifi. I don't care about the wifi. I care about the sloth who isn't making me any money taking up a chair or a sofa or a table for hours on end.
I'm not a business owner, but a very regular customer for a local Starbucks in my town. I use to go there after my daughter's violin lessons and have a treat, coffee, and some nice father-daughter time while we ate.
This was before a group of scrap-bookers decided that Starbucks was their personal workshop. They take up almost the entire store and parking lot, bring in all their equipment, and (from what I've seen) buy only a few drinks between the group.
I've stopped going to the store and take my girls someplace else. So your moral is true: it isn't wifi, it is the free loaders who have no consideration for other patrons that cost the business owner. At least if I have to have a coffee, there's the drive through...something the little shops probably don't have.
Re:Greed + Restaurant = FAILURE (Score:3, Interesting)
Every time I see a restaurant cut Wi-Fi, they go out of business in six to eight months
I have never seen such a thing happen.
I have ONLY seen the opposite happen here in NYC. As a matter of fact, many customers are so happy that it is gone, they started talking again.
Re:They just need to treat it like it's a privileg (Score:3, Interesting)
McDonalds do this pretty well, between the sharp plastic furniture and the food, I generally last about five minutes before seeking fresh air or the toilets.
Re:right over their heads (Score:3, Interesting)
'People come here because we don't offer it. They know they can get their work done and not get distracted.'
This is something that I suspect will be lost on about 95% of the slashdot-reading population -- net access isn't necessarily critical to everyone's ability to do their work.
Some people don't need the coffee shop's wireless Internet because they bring their own Internet connection.
Unless they start jamming cellular signals I could care less about their wireless offerings.
It's time to face the facts: Soon the Internet will be accessible everywhere, all the time.
Enjoy your semi-Internet-free zones while you can.
Re:They just need to treat it like it's a privileg (Score:3, Interesting)
In the Barnes & Noble I used to work at, it was the nursing students that were the most egregious offenders. They would grab all of the review books off the shelves, buy one cup of coffee (some individuals seemed not to bother even with this), plop themselves down in the cafe, and spend the entire Sunday afternoon studying for their exams. When they were done, they just left all of the review books they had spent the afternoon paging through on the table. Heaven forbid they purchase one.
Once, when we had a performer invited to play the cafe (acoustic guitar and drum machine, or something), one of these clowns actually had the audacity to ask the manager how in the world he was supposed to be able to study with the music blaring.
People can be absolutely shameless.
3G broadband (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Greed + Restaurant = FAILURE (Score:3, Interesting)