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Security Portables The Military Idle

Israeli Border Police Shoot US Student's Laptop 929

Posted by kdawson
from the no-less-no-more dept.
zerothink writes "American student Lily Sussman, 21, upon entry into Israel from Taba (Egypt, Sinai) caught Israeli border police in grumpy mood — after two hours of questions and searching through her belongings they decided to put three bullets through her laptop. Explanation? 'I'm sorry but we had to blow up your laptop.' Haaretz also covered the story." All three bullets missed the hard disk.
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Israeli Border Police Shoot US Student's Laptop

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  • by assemblerex (1275164) * on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @05:37AM (#30455454)
    She had the following on herself -hand drawn map of downtown Jerusalem -Arabic stickers on laptop -"Fuck Star of David" pic on phone
    -passport stamps from Arab countries -various Arab publications -photos condemning Israeli military action in Gaza
  • by Jojoba86 (1496883) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @05:43AM (#30455488)
    There was no moaning in TFA about the questioning, just the 3 bullets in the laptop. There's no reasonable explanation to why they might do this that I can think of, but it makes for some awesome pictures.
  • by assemblerex (1275164) * on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @05:46AM (#30455512)
    Standard OP for possible explosive device is most countries it to shoot it to prevent it from exploding. Usually a shotgun is used. It does not have enough force to detonate the device.
  • by A12m0v (1315511) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @05:47AM (#30455526) Journal

    She will be reimbursed on her shot MacBook.

  • by dushkin (965522) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @05:47AM (#30455530) Homepage

    Nothing new to me. It even beats American airport security paranoia, I hear.

    Here's an outline of the security measures at the train station near my home (minor suburban station with about a train an hour):

    Before I enter the station, I see guard dogs, handled by security officers (in their 20s). They're actually a bit cute. Except they have sharp teeth and they're trained to kill etc.

    I have to take my bags and put them through an X-ray machine, examined by a clueless security officer. I also have to step through a metal detector in case I have a gun/knife on me (never gets triggered by my belt and house keys)

    Then as the train arrives, commuters are instructed not to board it until "security examinations" are finished (even if it's the back-and-forth shuttle train that only has two stops).

    All train personnal are armed with a pistol. Including drivers. ... And then a 20 year old soldier walks in carrying an M16 and ammo which he is somehow allowed to because he has a slip of paper and uniform.

    Security at its finest!

  • by sciencewatcher (1699186) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @05:50AM (#30455554)
    Safety and security procedures in Israel are strict, but effective and generally well applied. Terrorists often send 'innocent' foreigners with equipment across the border to test procedures. They now know what does not work. As far as the woman involved concerned, just reading the leaflets with info available at all embassies and airlines would have prevented her laptop in need of replacement.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @06:00AM (#30455612)

    The purpose of the shots was most likely *not* the destruction of data on the hard drive, but the disablement of a potential explosive device.

    US embassies won't tolerate any laptop from visitors (they tolerate celle phones, which you have to leave outside before entering though).

    Israeli airport security once kept an external hard drive as I had no laptop to plug it in, they wanted to make sure it was not explosives disguised as a hard drive. They send the hard drive back to my home in the US at their own expense 48h later.

    The method seems ruthless, but given what the girl had on her, they probably did not want to risk anything. And they will pay for the laptop.

  • by meerling (1487879) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @06:20AM (#30455740)
    If it were a chemical or biological agent, that would release it into the air.
    Was the agent wearing a proper hazard suit and mask?

    Second, shotguns won't set off plastic explosives. Neither will a high powered rifle.
    But if a shotgun pellet hit a blasting cap it will definitely explode the whole thing.
    From what I hear, terrorist improvised explosive devices tend to be made with more unstable stuff (blasting caps) rather than more stable things (c4).
    By the way, forget everything you've ever seen in a movie about explosives, it's total B.S.
    Also, all the E.O.D. guys I know of doing a 'disposal' will either move it to a 'safe' location or at least sandbag the snot out of it before dealing with it.
    (You know those new bomb robots that have the built in gun? It's for shooting at the control mechanism, not the explosives, and if you don't know where both those parts are, you don't shoot at it unless you want to buy a new robot. Last E.O.D. robot I played with cost $2.5 million. Nobody wants that coming out of their paychecks.)

    Yes, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to those substances, I really was a Munitions Systems Specialist in the military.
    (Job kinda sucked, so did the co-workers, but it had it's good points.)

    Either way you look at it, they pumped 3 rounds into just to be pricks and F with the girl.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @06:25AM (#30455782)
    very true and the parent is very wrong. but it was created with very different borders than today

    http://moinansari.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/israel-palestine_map.jpg

    and that was using merkava "treaties".
  • by Sir_Lewk (967686) <sirlewk@NospAm.gmail.com> on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @06:28AM (#30455790)

    self-declared state of Israel

    Actually, they were declared a state in 1947 by the UN.

    But hey, sometimes facts just arn't as fun are they?

  • by JenniP (824070) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @06:35AM (#30455834)
    I've crossed into Israel at this particular border point, around 5 years ago, and yes it was one of the hardest border crossings I've ever done, we were part of a tourist party who were going to be in Israel for around 30 minutes (a quick drive through Elat then out into Jordan), and its not somewhere I would take anything bigger than a camera I would even if I could empty the card before I went through. Everything was Xrayed, the metal detectors were so sensitive every scrap of metal was detected, a few people having to remove jeans with quite a few studs, your personal property was swabbed and checked for explosives and then once through there you were grilled about your personal details at passport control, quite a few people getting long grillings. All under the watch of guys with automatic weapons. It wasn't a place you made any kind of joke, you do exactly as you are told. At the time I though it was overkill then a week later this happened http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Sinai_bombings [wikipedia.org], a terrorist attack aimed at the Israelis pretty much at that border point (although on the Egyptian side), kind of puts it all into perspective. Saying that since that border crossing, I am a lot more careful what I take with me, laptops and cameras fully backed up, and only take essentials, even bought a travel laptop so my main machine would stay safe at home. Everything electrical packed into one easy to search bag. Jen
  • by furball (2853) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @06:35AM (#30455836) Journal
    You mean like these guys [wikipedia.org]? As part of their preparation, they made a video. Then they take said video to Circuit City to have it converted to DVD.
  • If I may nitpick (Score:3, Informative)

    by Sun (104778) <shachar@shemesh.biz> on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @06:39AM (#30455860) Homepage

    It was shot by Israeli Police, not the IDF.

    Shachar

  • by cmdr_tofu (826352) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @06:41AM (#30455882) Homepage

    What Al Queda stickers? What political statements?

    Her blog only said Arabic stickers. AFAIK, the language is not (nor is speaking it or appreciating it) against any laws.

  • by Ash Vince (602485) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @07:00AM (#30456006) Journal

    Given the political statements on her laptop, one wonders what kind of provocation she might have tried with the guards. I don't believe that justifies their reaction, and wouldn't be surprised if they are disciplined (which will, of course, generate zero coverage outside of Israel), but most rational people understand that baiting Israelis is a rather dangerous sport.

    Damn right, this is the country that has been said to have a policy of shooting unarmed civilians by one of its own army snipers.

    "Sergeant Wahid Taysir, the sniper who killed Hurndall, has already said a policy of shooting at unarmed civilians existed at the time."

    Full Article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jan/30/israel [guardian.co.uk]

    Ok, the guy in question may have been saying this just to save his own skin as he was on trial for murder, but the large number of people, including children, killed in Gaza last year does make you wonder if maybe he was telling the truth.

  • by billius (1188143) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @07:17AM (#30456124)
    Conveniently taking said details out of context:

    hand drawn map of downtown Jerusalem

    Could either be suspicious or not depending on what said map entails. Given that according to the blog it was just the main streets in town, I don't really find it that suspicious at all, though I realize we're only getting one side of the story.

    Arabic stickers on laptop

    The Arabic stickers were on the keyboard, which, along with the Arabic phrasebook, would seem to indicate that she was learning the language. I don't know about you, but my guess would be that most people planning to collaborate with Palestinian terrorists would be at least fluent enough in said language not need a phrase book. It's not as if she has a bunch of Arabic stickers denouncing Israel stuck to her computer.

    "Fuck Star of David" pic

    As per TFA:

    a picture of graffiti, which read “Fuck” scrawled next to the Jewish star of David

    It's not like she had some fancy logo from an Anti-Israel website saved as her background or whatever. She saw some graffiti and took a picture of it, that's it.

    passport stamps from Arab countries

    So legally entering and exiting these countries makes her dangerous?

    various Arab publications

    What the hell does this even refer to? All she mentions is an Arabic Phrasebook. You're making it sound like she's reading a signed copy Osama Bin Laden's authorized biography when all she wants to know how to do is order food and ask where the bathroom is.

    photos condemning Israeli military action in Gaza

    From TFA:

    pictures from a photo exhibit about Israel’s January attack of Gaza

    You're assuming that the photos were condemning the military action. There's no mention of whether or not they were for, against or simply neutral on the subject.

    The bottom line is, the only way shooting the laptop makes any sense is if they believed that there was some kind of explosive hidden within it that needed to be safely discharged away from people and given the context, even that sounds like bullshit given that they saw the computer working. Data pertaining to terrorist attacks, etc, could simply be erased. They could have just impounded the hard drive or laptop if they found something about the information suspicious. No matter how I slice it in my head, I can't figure out why on earth they shot a fucking computer except that 1. it might be really fucking fun or 2. they were hardcore MS fanboys.

  • by AHuxley (892839) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @07:19AM (#30456150) Homepage Journal
    This http://www.calcalist.co.il/internet/articles/0,7340,L-3319543,00.html [calcalist.co.il]
    Translated should give some idea
    http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=34520 [kibush.co.il]
    "... paid Internet talkbackers are being mobilized in the service in the service of the State. The Foreign Ministry is in the process of setting up a team of students and demobilized soldiers who will work around the clock writing pro-Israeli responses on Internet websites all over the world, and on services like Facebook, Twitter and Youtube..." ...
  • by Hal_Porter (817932) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @07:20AM (#30456162)

    No idea honestly, but that Entebbe incident from the 70s (I think it was) comes to mind, and it originated in TLV (or SDV?). Possibly with a stop in ATH, but my memory's a bit cloudy.

    Well it was an Air France flight, and the hijack happened in Athens. So it wasn't necessarily a case of Israeli security failing - it's more likely the guns were brought on board in Athens.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe#Hijack [wikipedia.org]

    On 27 June 1976, Air France Flight 139, an Airbus A300, originating from Tel Aviv, Israel, carrying 248 passengers and a crew of 12, took off from Athens, heading for Paris. Soon after the 12:30 p.m. takeoff, the flight was hijacked by two Palestinians from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP-EO) and two Germans from the German Revolutionary Cells—Wilfried Böse and Brigitte Kuhlmann. The hijack was led by Böse who diverted the flight to Benghazi, Libya

    Incidentally the Germans - though claiming to be left wing ("radical left anti-imperialist liberation doctrine mixed with strong anti-Zionist, anti-patriarchal feminist, and anti-racist elements. ") - had a nasty antisemitic streak

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Cells_(RZ)#History [wikipedia.org]

    During the operation, which was carried out in conjunction with the PFLP, the German hijackers separated Jews from non-Jews, detaining only the former. The hijacking, which most observers reported initially as another Palestinian operation against Israeli targets, thus became emblematic of the perceived ideological proximity – at its extremist fringes – of the radical left, particularly in Germany, and fascist doctrine.

    In many ways I've always suspected that the ideological spectrum is actually a circle - the far left and far right are actually much more similar to each other than they are to democratic parties. Of course both the far left and far right need to deny this as vociferously as possible because the existence of the far right justifies the far left and vice versa. The textbook example is Germany in the 30's where people scared of the Communists saw the Nazis as the only way to stop them. Similarly people scared of Fascism saw the Communists as the only viable resistance. Of course both the Communists and the Nazis planned to sweep away liberal democracy and replace it with something much nastier.

  • by nidarus (240160) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @07:39AM (#30456288)

    Either way you look at it, they pumped 3 rounds into just to be pricks and F with the girl.

    Not true. I don't know why or how it works, but as an Israeli, I can tell you that it's standard procedure - they clear the area and bring in a robot that shoots the suspicious object.

    Maybe they're actively trying to blow up the object ($2.5M is nothing in this regard, btw - do you have any idea how much the army spends with a much smaller ROI?), and maybe they've been fucking with the whole Israeli population for ~30 years, but it has nothing to do with this particular girl.

  • by Lars T. (470328) <Lars.Traeger@g[ ... m ['oog' in gap]> on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @07:45AM (#30456338) Journal

    self-declared state of Israel

    Actually, they were declared a state in 1947 by the UN.

    But hey, sometimes facts just arn't as fun are they?

    After a long terror campaign by various Zionist groups - hey it may work for Palestinians too.

  • by sturle (1165695) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @07:57AM (#30456400)
    Nope. Israel was proclaimed an idependent state by Israel May 14th 1948. Most of what Israel calls Israel is occupied territory. Some Israeli claim the country was given to them by God, which implies they believe in The UN as their god. But God (the UN) only gave them a part of Palestine. The rest is self declared and not recognized as Israel by the rest of the world. In fact Israel have no official map of where their borders are. IMHO Israel should get their behinds out of the parts God (the UN) promised the Palestinians ASAP, and I believe such a move would make the area a lot more peaceful.
  • by t0p (1154575) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @08:39AM (#30456748) Homepage
    So the border guards interrogate this woman for 2 hours, X-ray her laptop, see her laptop working, and still decide to shoot it... and that's okay because a terrorist detonated a bomb in Egypt? I'm not trying to play down the horror of terrorist bombings. I'm just saying that security concerns do not justify harrassing innocent tourists just because you don't like the look of her.
  • by ido50 (967259) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @08:41AM (#30456774)
    Because anyone with a brain bigger than the size of a peanut knows Israel has a little more to offer than borders with Arab countries. In my 25 years of life in this "hellish desert" I've never once been to one of the borders, never once (knock-on-wood) found myself in or near a scene of terrorism, and probably once or twice visited our Judah desert, which is about as big as DreamHost's data center. Yes, we have life here. It's probably not as easy or glamorous as yours, but yet again no one get's to choose where to be born.
  • by lewko (195646) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @08:56AM (#30456926) Homepage

    Most of the weapons at Ben Gurion airport are concealed, worn by very attractive officers as it happens. Sexy and deadly.

    I saw plenty more German Shepherds and machine guns on display at Heathrow and Frankfurt airports, where the security was nowhere near as good when it all comes down to it. All show and no go.

  • Whether the Israeli military used white phosphorous when targeting civilians (the evidence suggests they were using it the way everyone else does, as flares at night to light up targets so the wrong building/person isn't shot) is irrelevant.

    Considering they mostly used it at daytime, it surely isn't.

  • by stephanruby (542433) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @09:23AM (#30457208)

    She had the following on herself -hand drawn map of downtown Jerusalem

    She is Jewish after all (even if she's not religious apparently, that's not a crime). If she's going to Israel, then it sort of makes sense for her to have a map.

    -Arabic stickers on laptop

    You mean? The stamp/sticker of an Arabic/Gypsy woman with rather large bosoms in a red shirt??? Is that the sticker you're speaking of? In Afghanistan too, the Taliban would probably have shot her laptop as well for having such a disgraceful sticker on there.

    -"Fuck Star of David" pic on phone

    You make it sound like this was the main background picture on her phone, when in fact it was just one picture out of hundreds that the guard was flipping through (that she claims she took because she was as shocked by this "art" graffiti as they were). My Jewish roommate in College would certainly have done the same, he was big on documenting hate crimes and anything related to anti-Israeli sentiments.

    -passport stamps from Arab countries -various Arab publications

    She lives in Egypt (suspicious, yes, but should they shoot the laptop of every Jewish person that lives in the region but not in Israel?? I would hope not.)

    -photos condemning Israeli military action in Gaza

    Again, this was part of that same Art/Photo exhibit against the Gaza incursion, so I'm not sure why you're listing it separately from the picture of the Graffiti insulting the star of David. And again, my former roommate (a self-proclaimed Zionist) would have been documenting and taken pictures of all those photos himself.

    Personally, I don't think there is any evidence that she might be anti-Israel, although I certainly wasn't there -- so without hearing the other side of the story -- I can't say things one way or another. But this is problematic, anti-Israel or not, it's important to have due process either way, otherwise you're giving way too much power to those young border guards (who may not know what the hell they're doing).

  • by OeLeWaPpErKe (412765) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @09:27AM (#30457254) Homepage

    You do realize that hamas, you know, lies. In addition to destroying their own people just for the attempt to kill a few Jews ?

    But really : how much of what you read is propaganda, and how much of it is true ? Not that we don't all (including you) know that already, but hey, someone's got to ask the question.

    Here are 2 pictures of a Gazan farm, built by Jews, that was given to Hamas :
    before it was given to hamas [lindasog.com]
    1 year later [lindasog.com]

    (that's a weapons smuggling tunnel)

    How can you tolerate a country that has "we will kill all jews world-wide" in it's constitution (note they do clarify that if they ever get the Jews they will come after everyone else - you just can't make this up. Unfortunately, it's not a joke)

    And btw, yes Hamas stole the election. Unfortunately, they would have won even if they hadn't stolen it according to polls. This existence is what Gazan muslims want, over 60% of them. Of course, the fact that anyone who has anything better to do in his life than killing Jews has long since left is the main cause of that.

  • by Akatosh (80189) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @09:43AM (#30457406) Homepage

    Having been there, Isreal isn't even remotely 'western-civilized'. An American should seriously fear for their life there unless they know the ins and outs of that culture. God forbid you slip up and accidentally order a pepperoni pizza (my mother was ousted from the building) or stand in front of a muslim en route to prayer (my brother was picked up and thrown headfirst into a barrel of fish). A tour included a popular shootout spot, complete with bullet holes on either side of the alley. The airport we left from was bombed the day after we left. That place is NOT 'western-civilized', or anything civilized, or even safe.

  • by Xest (935314) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @09:57AM (#30457602)

    "I disagree with the emotive language implying that Palestinians are the only ones killing innocent civilians. Particularly given differences in death counts or the lack of running water for so many people"

    The problem with this type of argument is it completely ignores intention.

    You see, the issue is this, Israel, with it's military might, could kill far more than the death counts it does if it wanted to. Hamas, because they are constrained and only have highly inaccurate rockets can't. Israel does at least, contrary to popular belief try and hit militants not civilians, but the problem they face is two fold, firstly a militant with his AK-47 taken away is easily classed as a civilian, because they do not wear uniforms, and secondly, militants hide amongst the civilian population. I wont pretend there aren't some dickheads in the Israeli army who do attack civilians, and I wont pretend the Israeli military try and cover it up when it does happen. What is pretty clear though is that the Israeli military doesn't have a policy of intentionally killing as many civilians as possible, else they'd just napalm the shit out of downtown Gaza and get far higher casualty numbers in contrast.

    Now on the other side of it, you have Hamas, Hamas do want to inflict civilian casualties on Israel, in fact, that's their goal, but fortunately they don't have the means to do so very successfully.

    So the raw numbers are often used unfairly to demonise Israel, because you see, Israel's kill count is much lower than it could be if Israel wanted it higher, but it's also much lower than the civilian kill count Hamas would like to inflict on Israel. It becomes even more of an issue when you realise that Hamas using civilian cover is the whole reason many Palestinian civilians die in the first place- effectively Hamas put them in the line of fire by launching rockets from civilian errors- in this respect Israel has to decide whether they just take the fire and receive casualties themselves, or try and stop the fire and risk Palestinian civilian casualties, but also take out the militants too. Hamas then also must bear some responsibility for the Palestinian civilian casualties themselves.

    Again, just to make it clear, I far from believe the Israelis are saints, but I do realise it's not a simple problem for them, and it does seem clear they don't for the majority part intentionally kill civilians. They do a lot wrong, but they're playing a far less dirty game than Hamas, and by falling for their game of using civilians as cover as you are, you're just encouraging them to do it because the propaganda they get from it due to people like yourself looking only at the figures, not the facts, or the fact they can't be shot at but can shoot and kill Israelis freely if they aren't stopped makes the situation win-win. Do the Palestinian civilians a favour and recognise the problem of Palestinian civilian deaths for what it is- a problem that both Hamas AND Israel are responsible for rather than falling for the Hamas propaganda and hence giving them ever more reason to continue to put Palestinian civilian lives in danger by keeping it a win-win situation for Hamas.

  • Re:Stupid bitch (Score:3, Informative)

    by c6gunner (950153) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @10:21AM (#30457946)

    Is it wrong for an American to expect better treatment in Israel than in Iran?

    Of course not. Which is why she GOT better treatment. Try flying into Iran with a "fuck mohammed" photo and hebrew stickers on your laptop. As a best case scenario you'll lose the laptop without compensation. Worst case, you won't be posting on slashdot for a long, long time.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @10:58AM (#30458586)

    There are many faults about Israel, but these things are not typical of Israel the way I know it. Maybe the old city of Jerusalem? dunno.
    First of all, I don't remember any bombing of any airport in Israel. There was a terrorist attack 35 years ago in Ben Gurion Airport. I'm sure you are not talking about that.
    And the other two incidents - really weird. Pepperoni Pizza is very big there from what I recall.
    Tel Aviv and its surroundings are very western-civilized. Jerusalem and the west bank are just plain fucked up in every aspect imaginable, I'll give you that.
    Israelis consider these two areas to be almost completely different states. At least two completely different states of mind.

  • by VJ42 (860241) * on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @11:44AM (#30459302)
    Parent shouldn't be marked troll, he's correct. Whilst the British mandate was still in effect over what was then Palestine, Zionist groups conducted what would today be described as a terrorist campaign against them culminating in the Bombing of the King David hotel [wikipedia.org]. As the parent said, the tactics worked to help establish the Israeli state, it may eventually work for the Palestinians as well.
  • by pixelpusher220 (529617) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @11:52AM (#30459434)
    I don't believe Palestine in any incarnation was party to the UN mandate. Did they have any voice at all in the UN?

    It was *decided* that portions would be carved up and given to the Jewish people who had settled there. But the disaffected parties weren't given any say in the matter; just 'accept this'.

    Little wonder they didn't care for it much...

    I completely agree blame is well spread in this case. That was my original point, it takes 2 parties. Or as others commented, just one to start the problem, which was the UN/Israel who started it.
  • by ravenshrike (808508) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @12:05PM (#30459656)

    "Palestine" was part of the Ottoman empire. Not a discrete legal entity.

  • by LizardKing (5245) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @12:22PM (#30460010)

    The British.

    Nope, the British were adamant that Jewish mass emigration to Palestine shouldn't happen because it would end in violence between Palestinians and Jews. As a result, Jewish terrorists frequently attached the British authorities in Palestine. When an exhausted Britain pulled out of Palestine, having been bankrupted by World War II, the Jewish terrorists became militias that massacred and expelled Palestinians. These groups then went on to declare the existence of the state of Israel.

    Saddest of all, is that the state of Israel enshrines the extermination of Jews in World War II as its right to exist. This is despite the fact that it was founded on racially motivated genocide against Palestinians, is increasingly dominated by reactionary religious groups, and was founded by groups who were largely hostile to the European Jews who had suffered in World War II (they were held to have brought it on themselves by not emigrating to Palestine earlier).

  • by Achromatic1978 (916097) <robert@@@chromablue...net> on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @12:28PM (#30460094)
    Informative? Troll.

    How can you tolerate a country that has "we will kill all jews world-wide" in it's constitution (note they do clarify that if they ever get the Jews they will come after everyone else - you just can't make this up. Unfortunately, it's not a joke)

    In the words of Wikipedia, citation please.

    Is it before or after Article 4 [wikisource.org], which states:

    Islam is the official religion in Palestine. Respect and sanctity of all other heavenly religions shall be maintained.

    Or Article 18?

    Freedom of belief and the performance of religious rituals are guaranteed, provided that they do not violate public order or public morals.

    Here's an idea, it's novel, I know. How about you go to the Palestinian Constitution, which I helpfully linked above, and show us this "not a joke" claim you're making, "it's true, really it is" about the goal of "death to Jews and all non-Muslims".

    Because beyond that, you ARE a troll.

  • Please learn to read (Score:1, Informative)

    by Blappo (976408) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @02:09PM (#30461700) Journal

    http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm [fas.org]

    'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
    obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.'

    'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and
    kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the
    rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind
    me, come and kill him.'

    So, what do you have to gain from pretending the charter of Hamas, the party that rules "Palestine" with an iron fist, isn't the defacto constitution of the country?

    It must suck for you to win on the letter and TOTALLY GET DESTROYED on the spirit.

  • by wwahammy (765566) on Wednesday December 16, 2009 @04:03PM (#30463810)
    Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949. I guess it didn't legally apply until 1949 so while territory occupied prior to that may not be relevant to the debate, the territory occupied from the 1967 war is very much relevant.

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