Israeli Border Police Shoot US Student's Laptop 929
zerothink writes "American student Lily Sussman, 21, upon entry into Israel from Taba (Egypt, Sinai) caught Israeli border police in grumpy mood — after two hours of questions and searching through her belongings they decided to put three bullets through her laptop. Explanation? 'I'm sorry but we had to blow up your laptop.' Haaretz also covered the story." All three bullets missed the hard disk.
Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:4, Informative)
-passport stamps from Arab countries -various Arab publications -photos condemning Israeli military action in Gaza
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:4, Informative)
Very thoughtful of them (Score:4, Informative)
She will be reimbursed on her shot MacBook.
Hyper-security in Israel (Score:5, Informative)
Nothing new to me. It even beats American airport security paranoia, I hear.
Here's an outline of the security measures at the train station near my home (minor suburban station with about a train an hour):
Before I enter the station, I see guard dogs, handled by security officers (in their 20s). They're actually a bit cute. Except they have sharp teeth and they're trained to kill etc.
I have to take my bags and put them through an X-ray machine, examined by a clueless security officer. I also have to step through a metal detector in case I have a gun/knife on me (never gets triggered by my belt and house keys)
Then as the train arrives, commuters are instructed not to board it until "security examinations" are finished (even if it's the back-and-forth shuttle train that only has two stops).
All train personnal are armed with a pistol. Including drivers. ... And then a 20 year old soldier walks in carrying an M16 and ammo which he is somehow allowed to because he has a slip of paper and uniform.
Security at its finest!
Had simply read the instructions (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:1, Informative)
The purpose of the shots was most likely *not* the destruction of data on the hard drive, but the disablement of a potential explosive device.
US embassies won't tolerate any laptop from visitors (they tolerate celle phones, which you have to leave outside before entering though).
Israeli airport security once kept an external hard drive as I had no laptop to plug it in, they wanted to make sure it was not explosives disguised as a hard drive. They send the hard drive back to my home in the US at their own expense 48h later.
The method seems ruthless, but given what the girl had on her, they probably did not want to risk anything. And they will pay for the laptop.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Informative)
Was the agent wearing a proper hazard suit and mask?
Second, shotguns won't set off plastic explosives. Neither will a high powered rifle.
But if a shotgun pellet hit a blasting cap it will definitely explode the whole thing.
From what I hear, terrorist improvised explosive devices tend to be made with more unstable stuff (blasting caps) rather than more stable things (c4).
By the way, forget everything you've ever seen in a movie about explosives, it's total B.S.
Also, all the E.O.D. guys I know of doing a 'disposal' will either move it to a 'safe' location or at least sandbag the snot out of it before dealing with it.
(You know those new bomb robots that have the built in gun? It's for shooting at the control mechanism, not the explosives, and if you don't know where both those parts are, you don't shoot at it unless you want to buy a new robot. Last E.O.D. robot I played with cost $2.5 million. Nobody wants that coming out of their paychecks.)
Yes, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to those substances, I really was a Munitions Systems Specialist in the military.
(Job kinda sucked, so did the co-workers, but it had it's good points.)
Either way you look at it, they pumped 3 rounds into just to be pricks and F with the girl.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Informative)
http://moinansari.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/israel-palestine_map.jpg
and that was using merkava "treaties".
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, they were declared a state in 1947 by the UN.
But hey, sometimes facts just arn't as fun are they?
Its not an easy place to cross (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:4, Informative)
If I may nitpick (Score:3, Informative)
It was shot by Israeli Police, not the IDF.
Shachar
Re:Probably better for her than old TSA policy (Score:5, Informative)
What Al Queda stickers? What political statements?
Her blog only said Arabic stickers. AFAIK, the language is not (nor is speaking it or appreciating it) against any laws.
Re:Probably better for her than old TSA policy (Score:3, Informative)
Given the political statements on her laptop, one wonders what kind of provocation she might have tried with the guards. I don't believe that justifies their reaction, and wouldn't be surprised if they are disciplined (which will, of course, generate zero coverage outside of Israel), but most rational people understand that baiting Israelis is a rather dangerous sport.
Damn right, this is the country that has been said to have a policy of shooting unarmed civilians by one of its own army snipers.
"Sergeant Wahid Taysir, the sniper who killed Hurndall, has already said a policy of shooting at unarmed civilians existed at the time."
Full Article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jan/30/israel [guardian.co.uk]
Ok, the guy in question may have been saying this just to save his own skin as he was on trial for murder, but the large number of people, including children, killed in Gaza last year does make you wonder if maybe he was telling the truth.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Informative)
Could either be suspicious or not depending on what said map entails. Given that according to the blog it was just the main streets in town, I don't really find it that suspicious at all, though I realize we're only getting one side of the story.
The Arabic stickers were on the keyboard, which, along with the Arabic phrasebook, would seem to indicate that she was learning the language. I don't know about you, but my guess would be that most people planning to collaborate with Palestinian terrorists would be at least fluent enough in said language not need a phrase book. It's not as if she has a bunch of Arabic stickers denouncing Israel stuck to her computer.
As per TFA:
It's not like she had some fancy logo from an Anti-Israel website saved as her background or whatever. She saw some graffiti and took a picture of it, that's it.
So legally entering and exiting these countries makes her dangerous?
What the hell does this even refer to? All she mentions is an Arabic Phrasebook. You're making it sound like she's reading a signed copy Osama Bin Laden's authorized biography when all she wants to know how to do is order food and ask where the bathroom is.
From TFA:
You're assuming that the photos were condemning the military action. There's no mention of whether or not they were for, against or simply neutral on the subject.
The bottom line is, the only way shooting the laptop makes any sense is if they believed that there was some kind of explosive hidden within it that needed to be safely discharged away from people and given the context, even that sounds like bullshit given that they saw the computer working. Data pertaining to terrorist attacks, etc, could simply be erased. They could have just impounded the hard drive or laptop if they found something about the information suspicious. No matter how I slice it in my head, I can't figure out why on earth they shot a fucking computer except that 1. it might be really fucking fun or 2. they were hardcore MS fanboys.
Re:her blog has 2 posts (Score:3, Informative)
Translated should give some idea
http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=34520 [kibush.co.il]
"... paid Internet talkbackers are being mobilized in the service in the service of the State. The Foreign Ministry is in the process of setting up a team of students and demobilized soldiers who will work around the clock writing pro-Israeli responses on Internet websites all over the world, and on services like Facebook, Twitter and Youtube..."
Re:Hyper-security in Israel (Score:2, Informative)
No idea honestly, but that Entebbe incident from the 70s (I think it was) comes to mind, and it originated in TLV (or SDV?). Possibly with a stop in ATH, but my memory's a bit cloudy.
Well it was an Air France flight, and the hijack happened in Athens. So it wasn't necessarily a case of Israeli security failing - it's more likely the guns were brought on board in Athens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe#Hijack [wikipedia.org]
On 27 June 1976, Air France Flight 139, an Airbus A300, originating from Tel Aviv, Israel, carrying 248 passengers and a crew of 12, took off from Athens, heading for Paris. Soon after the 12:30 p.m. takeoff, the flight was hijacked by two Palestinians from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP-EO) and two Germans from the German Revolutionary Cells—Wilfried Böse and Brigitte Kuhlmann. The hijack was led by Böse who diverted the flight to Benghazi, Libya
Incidentally the Germans - though claiming to be left wing ("radical left anti-imperialist liberation doctrine mixed with strong anti-Zionist, anti-patriarchal feminist, and anti-racist elements. ") - had a nasty antisemitic streak
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Cells_(RZ)#History [wikipedia.org]
During the operation, which was carried out in conjunction with the PFLP, the German hijackers separated Jews from non-Jews, detaining only the former. The hijacking, which most observers reported initially as another Palestinian operation against Israeli targets, thus became emblematic of the perceived ideological proximity – at its extremist fringes – of the radical left, particularly in Germany, and fascist doctrine.
In many ways I've always suspected that the ideological spectrum is actually a circle - the far left and far right are actually much more similar to each other than they are to democratic parties. Of course both the far left and far right need to deny this as vociferously as possible because the existence of the far right justifies the far left and vice versa. The textbook example is Germany in the 30's where people scared of the Communists saw the Nazis as the only way to stop them. Similarly people scared of Fascism saw the Communists as the only viable resistance. Of course both the Communists and the Nazis planned to sweep away liberal democracy and replace it with something much nastier.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Informative)
Either way you look at it, they pumped 3 rounds into just to be pricks and F with the girl.
Not true. I don't know why or how it works, but as an Israeli, I can tell you that it's standard procedure - they clear the area and bring in a robot that shoots the suspicious object.
Maybe they're actively trying to blow up the object ($2.5M is nothing in this regard, btw - do you have any idea how much the army spends with a much smaller ROI?), and maybe they've been fucking with the whole Israeli population for ~30 years, but it has nothing to do with this particular girl.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, they were declared a state in 1947 by the UN.
But hey, sometimes facts just arn't as fun are they?
After a long terror campaign by various Zionist groups - hey it may work for Palestinians too.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Its not an easy place to cross (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Its not an easy place to cross (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Its not an easy place to cross (Score:3, Informative)
Most of the weapons at Ben Gurion airport are concealed, worn by very attractive officers as it happens. Sexy and deadly.
I saw plenty more German Shepherds and machine guns on display at Heathrow and Frankfurt airports, where the security was nowhere near as good when it all comes down to it. All show and no go.
Re:Shooting bombs? No bombs trigger when shot? (Score:5, Informative)
Whether the Israeli military used white phosphorous when targeting civilians (the evidence suggests they were using it the way everyone else does, as flares at night to light up targets so the wrong building/person isn't shot) is irrelevant.
Considering they mostly used it at daytime, it surely isn't.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:3, Informative)
She is Jewish after all (even if she's not religious apparently, that's not a crime). If she's going to Israel, then it sort of makes sense for her to have a map.
You mean? The stamp/sticker of an Arabic/Gypsy woman with rather large bosoms in a red shirt??? Is that the sticker you're speaking of? In Afghanistan too, the Taliban would probably have shot her laptop as well for having such a disgraceful sticker on there.
You make it sound like this was the main background picture on her phone, when in fact it was just one picture out of hundreds that the guard was flipping through (that she claims she took because she was as shocked by this "art" graffiti as they were). My Jewish roommate in College would certainly have done the same, he was big on documenting hate crimes and anything related to anti-Israeli sentiments.
She lives in Egypt (suspicious, yes, but should they shoot the laptop of every Jewish person that lives in the region but not in Israel?? I would hope not.)
Again, this was part of that same Art/Photo exhibit against the Gaza incursion, so I'm not sure why you're listing it separately from the picture of the Graffiti insulting the star of David. And again, my former roommate (a self-proclaimed Zionist) would have been documenting and taken pictures of all those photos himself.
Personally, I don't think there is any evidence that she might be anti-Israel, although I certainly wasn't there -- so without hearing the other side of the story -- I can't say things one way or another. But this is problematic, anti-Israel or not, it's important to have due process either way, otherwise you're giving way too much power to those young border guards (who may not know what the hell they're doing).
Re:Shooting bombs? No bombs trigger when shot? (Score:2, Informative)
You do realize that hamas, you know, lies. In addition to destroying their own people just for the attempt to kill a few Jews ?
But really : how much of what you read is propaganda, and how much of it is true ? Not that we don't all (including you) know that already, but hey, someone's got to ask the question.
Here are 2 pictures of a Gazan farm, built by Jews, that was given to Hamas :
before it was given to hamas [lindasog.com]
1 year later [lindasog.com]
(that's a weapons smuggling tunnel)
How can you tolerate a country that has "we will kill all jews world-wide" in it's constitution (note they do clarify that if they ever get the Jews they will come after everyone else - you just can't make this up. Unfortunately, it's not a joke)
And btw, yes Hamas stole the election. Unfortunately, they would have won even if they hadn't stolen it according to polls. This existence is what Gazan muslims want, over 60% of them. Of course, the fact that anyone who has anything better to do in his life than killing Jews has long since left is the main cause of that.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Informative)
Having been there, Isreal isn't even remotely 'western-civilized'. An American should seriously fear for their life there unless they know the ins and outs of that culture. God forbid you slip up and accidentally order a pepperoni pizza (my mother was ousted from the building) or stand in front of a muslim en route to prayer (my brother was picked up and thrown headfirst into a barrel of fish). A tour included a popular shootout spot, complete with bullet holes on either side of the alley. The airport we left from was bombed the day after we left. That place is NOT 'western-civilized', or anything civilized, or even safe.
Re:Shooting bombs? No bombs trigger when shot? (Score:5, Informative)
"I disagree with the emotive language implying that Palestinians are the only ones killing innocent civilians. Particularly given differences in death counts or the lack of running water for so many people"
The problem with this type of argument is it completely ignores intention.
You see, the issue is this, Israel, with it's military might, could kill far more than the death counts it does if it wanted to. Hamas, because they are constrained and only have highly inaccurate rockets can't. Israel does at least, contrary to popular belief try and hit militants not civilians, but the problem they face is two fold, firstly a militant with his AK-47 taken away is easily classed as a civilian, because they do not wear uniforms, and secondly, militants hide amongst the civilian population. I wont pretend there aren't some dickheads in the Israeli army who do attack civilians, and I wont pretend the Israeli military try and cover it up when it does happen. What is pretty clear though is that the Israeli military doesn't have a policy of intentionally killing as many civilians as possible, else they'd just napalm the shit out of downtown Gaza and get far higher casualty numbers in contrast.
Now on the other side of it, you have Hamas, Hamas do want to inflict civilian casualties on Israel, in fact, that's their goal, but fortunately they don't have the means to do so very successfully.
So the raw numbers are often used unfairly to demonise Israel, because you see, Israel's kill count is much lower than it could be if Israel wanted it higher, but it's also much lower than the civilian kill count Hamas would like to inflict on Israel. It becomes even more of an issue when you realise that Hamas using civilian cover is the whole reason many Palestinian civilians die in the first place- effectively Hamas put them in the line of fire by launching rockets from civilian errors- in this respect Israel has to decide whether they just take the fire and receive casualties themselves, or try and stop the fire and risk Palestinian civilian casualties, but also take out the militants too. Hamas then also must bear some responsibility for the Palestinian civilian casualties themselves.
Again, just to make it clear, I far from believe the Israelis are saints, but I do realise it's not a simple problem for them, and it does seem clear they don't for the majority part intentionally kill civilians. They do a lot wrong, but they're playing a far less dirty game than Hamas, and by falling for their game of using civilians as cover as you are, you're just encouraging them to do it because the propaganda they get from it due to people like yourself looking only at the figures, not the facts, or the fact they can't be shot at but can shoot and kill Israelis freely if they aren't stopped makes the situation win-win. Do the Palestinian civilians a favour and recognise the problem of Palestinian civilian deaths for what it is- a problem that both Hamas AND Israel are responsible for rather than falling for the Hamas propaganda and hence giving them ever more reason to continue to put Palestinian civilian lives in danger by keeping it a win-win situation for Hamas.
Re:Stupid bitch (Score:3, Informative)
Is it wrong for an American to expect better treatment in Israel than in Iran?
Of course not. Which is why she GOT better treatment. Try flying into Iran with a "fuck mohammed" photo and hebrew stickers on your laptop. As a best case scenario you'll lose the laptop without compensation. Worst case, you won't be posting on slashdot for a long, long time.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:3, Informative)
There are many faults about Israel, but these things are not typical of Israel the way I know it. Maybe the old city of Jerusalem? dunno.
First of all, I don't remember any bombing of any airport in Israel. There was a terrorist attack 35 years ago in Ben Gurion Airport. I'm sure you are not talking about that.
And the other two incidents - really weird. Pepperoni Pizza is very big there from what I recall.
Tel Aviv and its surroundings are very western-civilized. Jerusalem and the west bank are just plain fucked up in every aspect imaginable, I'll give you that.
Israelis consider these two areas to be almost completely different states. At least two completely different states of mind.
Re:Conveniently forgetting the details (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Shooting bombs? No bombs trigger when shot? (Score:3, Informative)
It was *decided* that portions would be carved up and given to the Jewish people who had settled there. But the disaffected parties weren't given any say in the matter; just 'accept this'.
Little wonder they didn't care for it much...
I completely agree blame is well spread in this case. That was my original point, it takes 2 parties. Or as others commented, just one to start the problem, which was the UN/Israel who started it.
Re:Shooting bombs? No bombs trigger when shot? (Score:3, Informative)
"Palestine" was part of the Ottoman empire. Not a discrete legal entity.
Re:Shooting bombs? No bombs trigger when shot? (Score:2, Informative)
The British.
Nope, the British were adamant that Jewish mass emigration to Palestine shouldn't happen because it would end in violence between Palestinians and Jews. As a result, Jewish terrorists frequently attached the British authorities in Palestine. When an exhausted Britain pulled out of Palestine, having been bankrupted by World War II, the Jewish terrorists became militias that massacred and expelled Palestinians. These groups then went on to declare the existence of the state of Israel.
Saddest of all, is that the state of Israel enshrines the extermination of Jews in World War II as its right to exist. This is despite the fact that it was founded on racially motivated genocide against Palestinians, is increasingly dominated by reactionary religious groups, and was founded by groups who were largely hostile to the European Jews who had suffered in World War II (they were held to have brought it on themselves by not emigrating to Palestine earlier).
Re:Shooting bombs? No bombs trigger when shot? (Score:3, Informative)
In the words of Wikipedia, citation please.
Is it before or after Article 4 [wikisource.org], which states:
Or Article 18?
Here's an idea, it's novel, I know. How about you go to the Palestinian Constitution, which I helpfully linked above, and show us this "not a joke" claim you're making, "it's true, really it is" about the goal of "death to Jews and all non-Muslims".
Because beyond that, you ARE a troll.
Please learn to read (Score:1, Informative)
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm [fas.org]
'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.'
'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and
kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the
rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind
me, come and kill him.'
So, what do you have to gain from pretending the charter of Hamas, the party that rules "Palestine" with an iron fist, isn't the defacto constitution of the country?
It must suck for you to win on the letter and TOTALLY GET DESTROYED on the spirit.
Re:Shooting bombs? No bombs trigger when shot? (Score:3, Informative)