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Comments: 584 +- Mobile: No Hand-Held Devices In Ontario Cars on Wednesday October 28, @05:01AM
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kdawson
on Wednesday October 28, @05:01AM
from the hands-where-i-can-see-'em dept.
from the hands-where-i-can-see-'em dept.
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NIK282000 writes "To cut down on accidents caused by drivers who aren't paying attention, in Ontario it is now a ticketable offense to text, email, or navigate with your GPS while driving. But it seems to me that they have thrown the baby out with the bathwater, because it is now also a $500 fine to change your radio station, change songs on your MP3 player, or even drink your morning coffee. It can also be enforced to the point where changing the climate controls on your dash can get you fined because it requires you to take your hands off the wheel. Though this was a good idea, it seems to have been taken a little too far."
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They've taken a leaf out of the UK's book (Score:5, Interesting)
People here have been ticketed for eating apples or sipping water, while stopped at traffic lights.
Eventually, somebody will realise that people with the first frigging clue about driving (and a self-preservation instinct) do these things WHEN IT IS SAFE TO DO SO. It's the people without the first clue of driving who need the attention of the authorities, and these people are ingineous at finding ways of being dangerous while driving exactly 'by the book'. Cops should pull people who are obviously being a danger (all over the road, near misses etc etc), rather than based on a tickbox system (is speed >X? Is driver doing activity Y?) as seems to be increasingly the case in many areas.
Re:They've taken a leaf out of the UK's book (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:They've taken a leaf out of the UK's book (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:They've taken a leaf out of the UK's book (Score:5, Insightful)
Um, no. You rear ended a truck because you gunned your gas without paying attention to what was in front of you. Pulling out the fritter at the red light wasn't the issue - not returning your attention to the road when the time came was.
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Re:They've taken a leaf out of the UK's book (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
On a related note...
Do none of these places have an offense of "driving without due care or attention" which would suffice, rather than continuously create bespoke laws to legislate against every new device that comes out that could cause drivers to, erm, drive without due care or attention?
(And, yes, the UK does have the first offense, but they still felt the need to create a special law for mobile phone usage.)
Re:They've taken a leaf out of the UK's book (Score:5, Insightful)
Politicians create additional laws so they can take credit for them. Yes, most places already have these laws, but it's better for the politicians to create new ones instead of reminding people about the existing ones or encouraging better enforcement, which wouldn't get them much publicity.
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Re:They've taken a leaf out of the UK's book (Score:4, Insightful)
You're not wrong, but just a little off target. People, being idiots, have picked up on all these electronic devices, and moved them into their cars. People, being idiots, have killed other people, as a result of these moronic decisions. To be more accurate, people have CHOSEN to distract themselves while driving with electronic devices. These decisions have been met with a public outcry - "There ought to be a law!" Citizens around the world are demanding that drivers pay attention to their driving, or don't drive.
The idiots have argued that their electronic devices are no more distracting than the dozens of activities that non-idiots engage in while driving. Many idiots say that reaching down to adjust the stereo volume WITHOUT taking their eyes off the road, is just as distracting as texting. Because they are idiots, the argument makes sense to them. (Meanwhile, no one suggests that complicated sound systems simply do not belong in an automobile - all of my sons have stereos in their dashboards that I can't figure out without parking the car, and studying the damned things!)
So, the whole thing is handed off to the politicians. Idiots vote for politicians. Some politicians are idiots. We get idiot laws.
Welcome to the land of idiots, where laws are designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator amongst the voters.
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Re:They've taken a leaf out of the UK's book (Score:5, Insightful)
Except for the fact that accidents per mile driven have been decreasing and are at an all time low in the USA...
But you keep calling other people idiots.
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Re:They've taken a leaf out of the UK's book (Score:5, Insightful)
Less accidents, despite the increase in electronic devices...
And this has nothing to do with the fact that cars these days have better safety features?
Also a device like a GPS may actually decrease accidents, because it reduces stress... You no longer have to worry about getting lost, and try to read a map as you drive (you used to see this a lot - people with maps open on their steering wheel as they drove), you just relax and let the GPS guide you, no stress.
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Re:They've taken a leaf out of the UK's book (Score:4, Insightful)
It could just as easily mean better road design and better technology in cars as far as antilock brakes, stability control and tires, which can get someone out of a jam better than the clunkers of yore.
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Re:They've taken a leaf out of the UK's book (Score:4, Insightful)
Anyone who fails to understand that his undivided attention belongs on his SURROUNDINGS, rather than his toys, is indeed an idiot. Anyone care to explain away those pilots who flew 150 miles past their destination, only to have to admit they were on their laptop computers? There have been studies on people's ability to multi-task. Everyone's assumptions have been blown away by the studies - google for it if you care to. Women multi-task better than men, that has always been true, and the studies bear that out. But, even the best multi-taskers aren't as good as they THINK they are. One of the little bits of data found in the studies, is that those people who THINK they are great at it, are actually worse at multi-tasking than many people who don't claim to be good.
But, studies aside - common sense should tell people that ALL distractions should be laid aside while operating a motor vehicle. Only the most momentary distractions should be permitted, like reaching for your drink. Even that isn't tolerated very well where people are serious about their driving. There was an article some months back about Autobahn drivers. Some of those Germans asked why ANYONE would even WANT a cupholder in their car. Getting behind the wheel means driving, not relaxing, or entertaining yourself, or eating.
In short, SHUT UP AND DRIVE!! Use the phone at home.
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Re:They've taken a leaf out of the UK's book (Score:5, Insightful)
Because "Driving without care or attention" has two possible problems.
1 - It is easier for a cop to say "I am fining you because you are talking on your cell while driving" as opposed to "I am fining you for driving without care or attention because you are talking on your cellphone while driving" and to make the point without wasting both parties time.
2 - "Driving without care or attention" leaves too much room for subjective argumentation - "But I can drive just as well while on the cell as when I am not!" and in (1) above it can become really problematic.
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Re:They've taken a leaf out of the UK's book (Score:5, Insightful)
Do none of these places have an offense of "driving without due care or attention" which would suffice,
Yeah, but that involves the police gathering evidence and making a case that a driver was not in control of their vehicle. These new offences are mainly "fixed penalty" jobs that bypass all that tedious stuff about "due process" and "a fair hearing", and are absolutely brilliant for soft-targetting people sitting in traffic jams (much easier than catching that idiot in a BMW as he zooms past).
On the bright side, maybe eventually the police will be given powers to simply arrest anybody driving a white van or a large German car.
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Re:They've taken a leaf out of the UK's book (Score:4, Insightful)
Now if your points were made based on some other traffic law/judicial system outside of the U.S. (which is fine because the story is about Canada), then I can't claim to know if the system is similar.
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Re:They've taken a leaf out of the UK's book (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:They've taken a leaf out of the UK's book (Score:4, Insightful)
Problem is, the perp can then argue they were driving with due care and attention, even when changing the radio, touching up their makeup, and drinking a coffee simultaneously. New laws like this take away the ambiguity and make it simpler for everyone.
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Re:They've taken a leaf out of the UK's book (Score:4, Insightful)
Driving will continue to being dangerous until we take the human component out of driving. We could probably make it today, but the underlying infrastructure just isn't there yet and there is no push for it. Maybe in 50 years.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It is part of a new regime of law enforcement. The idea is that if everyone is in constant fear of being arrested, harrassed, fined, jailed, beaten up, or shaken down, then they will all behave very very carefully. It works too. Crime goes down, public safety goes up.
Then some genocidal maniac assumes the reins of the police state, and millions die.
RTFS (Score:5, Informative)
The law applies to handheld electronic devices. So unless your coffee mug is electronic or your climate control is handheld you are probably fine with coffee and a nice temp in your car
Re:RTFS (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed it does. If the GPS is attached to the window, or dash mounted it can be used. If however you cause an accident by setting the address as you drive, you get the $1000 fine and points on your license.
However, the biggest problem I have with this new law, is not that it exists, I live in Ontario and cheer that it is in place, is that it does not apply to police officers. They are allowed to use hand held devices (such as cell phones) while they are driving. What is it that makes a copper less likely to be distracted by a hand held device than you or me?
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Re:RTFS (Score:5, Informative)
The law contains exceptions for EVERYONE to use a cell phone to call 911. So whether it's you calling the police, or the police calling the police, it's the same rules.
FTFA:
I don't see any real problem here ... the REAL problem I see is that you get bus drivers, etc., still yacking on their cell phones despite the laws in place.
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Re:RTFS (Score:4, Informative)
The law also contains a blanket exemption for *all* emergency vehicles. Fire/Ambulance as well as Police.
As for the why, it's because those emergency vehicles need to be able to use the radio to stay in touch with dispatch and be able to actually perform their emergency services. There's an exemption for professional uses as well... so that truck drivers and bus drivers can use their radios, too, but I don't think it applies to would-be "professionals" with a mobile office using the cell phone.
Irregardless, TFS is completely wrong and FUD. The law applies to hand-held devices. Cell phones, Nintendos, portable DVDs, GPS devices, etc.. It does not apply to drinking coffee, changing the radio station, or even people who like to drive with one arm hanging out the window.
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Re:why no hands-free police radios? (Score:4, Informative)
Remember its a policeman's word against yours - at least with two of the buggers you've got a chance of one of them being straight-up.
Wow... across the ocean but it sounds like another planet.
Over here, there are three mutually exclusive groups of people, as far as a cop is concerned.
1) Cops.
2) Cops' families.
3) Bad guys.
Making there be 2 of them is padding the odds for them, not us.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
[...] What is it that makes a copper less likely to be distracted by a hand held device than you or me?
Nothing. But the copper has a good reason to use a hand-held device, namely the fulfillment of their official duty to serve and protect the public, as opposed to Joe Dipshit's rather flimsy reason to text away while speeding down the highway to let Aunt Irma know he will arrive two nanoseconds later than expected. That is why, at least in most countries, police officers are also allowed to carry guns, battons, tasers and thelikes in public while civilian use of such items may be restricted.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Cell phones aren't police radios. The original poster wasn't talking about police radios.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
What is it that makes a copper less likely to be distracted by a hand held device than you or me?
The intense weekend of training they have to complete before joining the force.
Correct. The summary should be tagged "troll" (Score:5, Interesting)
On the other hand there is a lot of evidence that using handheld devices while driving is dangerous, and in our rather busier UK traffic anybody drinking coffee while driving is a risk to everybody else.
However the summary and some of the responses show part of a trend. "Libertarianism" translating as "I should be allowed to do whatever I want, but stop those other idiots". Once you reach the age of 40 it becomes apparent that young drivers are crap and greatly overestimate their skills and their road attentiveness. As a colleague of mind once remarked "when I think how I used to drive when i was younger and put my family at risk, my blood runs cold". I expect lots of posts here slagging off Ontario, but they are right - and remember kids, you can't post a retraction to Slashdot from the cemetary.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't know about you, but I can: grab, open, drink from, close, and replace my water bottle (with a screw on top!) with a single hand (either hand, actually) without taking my eyes from the road. I can also operate all my radio and AC/heater controls without looking at them either.
It's not people who drink or use devices in the car that cause problems. The problem is people taking their eyes off the road for more than an instant. These same people would be the ones who turn their head to look at the accid
And In Related News: (Score:5, Funny)
Beware! Definitions have consequences!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not like all the other exhaust gases are healthy.
Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
Though this was a good idea, it seems to have been taken a little too far.
Here's how I reason. Regardless if I can or cannot drive perfectly well while drinking coffee with one hand, for all I know this could be completely fatal in your case. And if keeping the right to drink my morning coffee while driving potentially means losing my legs or even my life simply because you also had those rights, then it's a very, very, very small price to pay.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I too would much prefer a more broad rule.
I find people talking on cellphones tend to be looking roughly straight ahead. Attention is diverted, but it's not as bad as a lot of other situations.
All my close calls involved other devices. One woman was putting on lipstick. Another guy was changing a CD. Another pulled into a 3-way intersection while looking for sunglasses.
I was able to swerve (slightly) into the wrong lane to avoid all three, but in busier locations that'd make the situation far worse. I happe
Re:Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
I too would much prefer a more broad rule.
I find people talking on cellphones tend to be looking roughly straight ahead. Attention is diverted, but it's not as bad as a lot of other situations.
All my close calls involved other devices. One woman was putting on lipstick. Another guy was changing a CD. Another pulled into a 3-way intersection while looking for sunglasses.
I was able to swerve (slightly) into the wrong lane to avoid all three, but in busier locations that'd make the situation far worse. I happen to live in a small city in BC(<100k people), but in a large city of millions, with dozens of lanes of traffic, you just can't pull off the moves I did. It'd mean bad accidents, so I fully understand the desire to prevent it.
Regarding cellphones... many young people can operate them without looking at the screen or phone, and can drop them in an instant if necessary to grab the wheel. I'm really worried about other stuff more. Anything that takes your eyes off the road...
(Oh, and FYI - I'm responsible and pull over when making calls. You like to drink morning coffee huh, on the way to work? Well screw you!)
You're right. But really we're repeating what has been stated as plain fucking truth long ago: people think they are much better drivers than they actually are. So this means one thing, the responsibility (even though possible in the case of a few more intelligent people) cannot be put on the driver. The driver shouldn't be allowed to evaluate if "this is a good time to speak in the phone" or "this is a good time to drink my coffee" or "this is a good time to change the CD". It should simply be forbidden because the driver makes the common mistake of thinking he's safe because of his alleged awesome driving skills. Leaving the rest of us at danger, not only drivers but also pedestrians/cyclists and even property.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Apparently not.
But I pose a question for you.
If you spilt hot coffee all over your groin while driving, could you get off the road safely to attend to it?
Perhaps something a bit cooler would be safer, regardless of your skills.
Terrible Summary (Score:5, Informative)
Copy/pasting for those not interested in downloading the pdf:
What would not be allowed while driving, unless the vehicle is pulled off the roadway or lawfully parked
* Hand-held wireless communications devices such as cell phones, smartphones
* Hand-held electronic entertainment devices such as iPods, or other portable MP3 players, or portable games
* Texting and emailing
* Viewing display screens on devices not required for driving such as a laptop or DVD player
What would be allowed while driving
* Hands-free wireless communications devices with an earpiece or Bluetooth device
* 911 calls
* Pressing the button of a hand-held device to activate hands-free mode for incoming or outbound calls
* GPS units mounted on dashboards
* Collision avoidance systems
* Use by emergency services personnel such as police, fire and ambulance
* Logistical transportation tracking devices used for commercial vehicles
Re:Terrible Summary (Score:4, Informative)
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Why we'll never solve distracted driving (Score:3, Insightful)
We are constantly fighting cell phones, texting (what about emailing), and other one offs without taking on the core issue, distracted driving. And as long as there are mothers on the road, with screaming children in the back seat, while they try to fix their makeup as they race to a play date, we'll never face this issue head on. No one wants to discuss how distracting a baby can be, least we suffer the wrath of the angry mother. So we're constantly doing one off bills that catch some people that are distracted and others that are completely safe.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:It does not go too far (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah, lets ban everything that could ever create a risk in any situation. Theoretically, I could be distracted by reading your post on /. and not see an anyry badger lunging at me from next to my desk. Therefore, your posting on /. needs to be banned.
In fact, lets also ban the posession of slippery substances (if dropped on the floor they could cause somebody to slip and crack their skull open) etc etc etc
'Safe driving' is about awareness, being aware of the traffic around you and the road conditions, etc. It is NOT about a 'list of things you should never do, because in some situations they might be dangerous'.
I myself have nearly been hit by people distracted by road signs, FFS. By your logic road signs should be banned.
As for
Any driver involved in an accident while their car was moving should immediately have their license suspended and car impounded until cause can be determined. If they are at fault charged and if convicted of a simple infraction their license revoked. If injury or worse is caused they should be jailed. They are a danger to others.
, yeah, nice way to never ever find out the true cause of any accident because everyone involved is desperately trying to cover their asses against people like you. Go and read 'Road Accidents - Prevent or Punish' by J J Leeming, and then read it again.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It does not go too far (Score:5, Insightful)
"Any driver involved in an accident while their car was moving should immediately have their license suspended and car impounded until cause can be determined."
So under your proposed law, if someone hits you and the cop isn't sure, you lose your license until he is. And if he makes a mistake and finds you to be at fault, you lose your license?
No, that's far too extreme. You've gone beyond simple safety precautions and up into revenge.
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Get off your high horse (Score:5, Insightful)
So no, this law does not go too far, in fact it does not go far enough. It should mandate that anyone found driving while distracted be charged with reckless endangerment of human life.
Anyone who claims they've never driven while distracted is a complete and utter moron. Mod it flamebait, I don't give a fuck but you sir are a fuckwit. It'd be more effective to ban babies from being in the car since an infant in a car seat who has just vomited and is about to choke to death is a far greater distraction than changing the fucking radio station.
I'm almost surprised you haven't suggested that cars need to be banned period.
The correct solution by the way is to teach people how to cope with distractions. AND TEST the driver for being able to cope with distractions. Life is full of them and pretending they don't exist is far more culpable than changing a radio station.
Everyone has a right to travel. No one has the right to endanger others.
First of all there is no "right to travel". Secondly the two are not compatible. There is a risk to yourself and others around you when you travel. It can be minimised NOT eliminated.
Those that do endanger others need to be held accountable for their actions
You mean like existing dangerous driving laws?
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
First of all there is no "right to travel."
Actually, I think John Locke would disagree. And as for the second part, you can never eliminate risk, true, but you can minimize it to the extent that you render it statistically impossible, although I suspect the only way would be to enact absolutely draconian laws. It's a tautology, but the surest way to eliminate automobile accidents is to eliminate automobiles. There are, I would guess, very few if any car accidents in North Korea, because only high-level gove
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Everyone has a right to travel. No one has the right to endanger others.
I generally agree with your post, and normally I don't like picking nits, but, in Canada, mobility rights are enshrined in the Constitution.
6. (1) Every citizen of Canada has the right to enter, remain in and leave Canada.
(2) Every citizen of Canada and every person who has the status of a permanent resident of Canada has the right
(a) to move to and take up residence in any province; and
(b) to pursue the gaining of a livelihood in any province.
There are some qualifications to those rights that allow provinc
Re:I'm a west coast Canadian (Score:5, Informative)
You do realize that this particular law is in place in Ontario and Quebec because we were following suit from Alberta and BC?
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Re:Great! Now apply this law to the rest of the wo (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Man! (Score:5, Insightful)
You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose but you can't pick your friend's nose.
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Re:Man! (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:WTF? (Score:5, Funny)
How do you change gear?
Well, you see, most cars coming out nowadays have something called an 'automatic transmission'. The car actually changes gears for you! I know, I know, this sounds like science fiction, but it's true. These new future cars also have these things called cup holders, which will literally hold your cup for you! That will leave both of your hands completely, 100% unburdened by your coffee until you find a good time to take a sip! Wow!
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