Palm Ignores USB-IF Warning, Restores iTunes Sync 656
An anonymous reader writes "Palm's cat and mouse game with Apple continues. Ignoring the warning from the USB Implementers Forum, with its WebOS 1.2.1 release this morning Palm has restored iTunes media synchronization in its new Pre smartphone — and gone so far as to extend sync to photos. And, according to Digital Daily, it has done this, once again, by using Apple's USB vendor ID. Does the USB-IF have any recourse here? Does Apple?"
Re:Apple's activity is criminal here, Palm's is le (Score:4, Informative)
iTunes already extends functionality for 3rd parties. Blackberry have iTunes syncing, the proper way, and have had it for quite some time. Ditto for many other 3rd parties. Palm refusing to implement syncing with their device the proper way isn't promoting some kind of compatibility, it's just being lazy. And they are breaking the USB spec to do it, thus introducing non-standard behavior from a device.
Palm isn't doing what it can to provide compatibility, in fact, what they are doing is illegal in that they are breaking their contract with the USB-IF. Contract law is law, and breaking a contract is unlawful, ie illegal.
Re:Apple's activity is criminal here, Palm's is le (Score:3, Informative)
I don't think the USB-IF deserves that much blame.
While I appreciate what Palm is trying to do here, USB devices are supposed to identify themselves by the allocated manufacturer number, and it's common in my experience at least to have drivers locate the right device by checking manufacturer and device IDs.
Manufacturers using whatever IDs they like can result in collisions in the namespace, which will result in things like crashing and malfunction sooner or later.
Note also that my mouse uses the Logitech manufacturer ID, though it's a completely standard mouse that works with the standard USB functionality. It doesn't pretend to be made by Apple, or whichever company made the first USB mouse.
Re:I remember (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Apple's activity is criminal here, Palm's is le (Score:4, Informative)
So:
Is there a method Palm can use to import my iStore-purchased music into their devices, and not break the law or USB-IF rules?
Yes, there is, and yes, it's documented and supported, and yes, other 3rd parties are using it right now (Blackberry). iTunes keeps a copy of its database as an XML file which is kept up to date. The files themselves are stored on your hard drive and their location is written to this XML file. Any software can read in this file and then sync to any device it wants. Many 3rd parties are already doing it, be it stand-alone syncing software (doubletwist, The Missing Sync) or vendor provided syncing solutions (Blackberry's media desktop).
Re:Apple's activity is criminal here, Palm's is le (Score:5, Informative)
FYI:
Contract law is law, and breaking a contract is unlawful, ie illegal.
We can get into a debate over the proper definition of "illegal", but the way you seem to be using it implies that, in the eyes of the law, breaking a contract is somehow discouraged as a matter of public policy. It isn't. Yes, the party you've contracted with can sue you if you breach, but the law actually goes to some lengths to permit breaches of contract to the extent that they promote economic efficiency.
From Judge Oliver Wendell Holmes:
Nowhere is the confusion between moral and legal ideas more manifest than in the law of contract...The duty to keep a contract at common law means a prediction that you must pay damages if you do not keep it - and nothing else.
Re:Apple's activity is criminal here, Palm's is le (Score:3, Informative)
The iTunes database is available in plain straightforward XML format. On a Macintosh, you can read that database with two lines of code and get either an NSDictionary* or a CFDictionaryRef; the code for CFDictionaryRef is part of Core Foundation and open sourced. That database contains _everything_ about your iTunes Library. The music files are plain MP3 or AAC files. Apple wrote software that can sync the iTunes Library to Apple hardware, Palm can do the same for their own hardware.
Re:Apple's activity is criminal here, Palm's is le (Score:4, Informative)
He means for other devices to sync with iTunes music libraries, which other devices can do by reading the plaintext iTunes XML database. You are confusing that with Apple's attempts to stop people using software other than iTunes to sync iPods.
Re:Apple's activity is criminal here, Palm's is le (Score:3, Informative)
Palm is doing what is necessary to provide compatibility. If Apple and USB Interoperability Forum have worked to make the system deliberately incompatible, Palm has the legal right to circumvent that, and to sue Apple and USB-IF if they continue the cat-and-mouse game.
Probably this will eventually get to court, and Apple will be forced to extend itunes interoperability to other manufacturers.
I have not seen a more clueless post in recent memory. I would have thought that someone of your stature would have a better understanding of what is involved here. Palm is breaking the USB standard. There will probably be a lawsuit but Palm may end up facing fines and/or lose the ability to USB logos on their devices. They are in violation of the USB IF rules. They are not only using Apple's Vendor ID but also an Apple specific device ID. Device IDs are not necessarily unique under the USB spec so if a device need drivers to support specific features of the device, the OS will use a combination of the Device ID and Vendor ID to load the correct driver. If devices begin spoofing IDs like this, the entire schema for identification of USB devices will be broken.
Get back to us when you decide to leave the airy fairly land of Open Source/Academia and join the real world which is comprised of corporations with budget constraints and shrinking revenue streams. Some of us have to actually work hard for a living.
Apple provides a windows API for writing iTunes plugins and a similar API for OS X. They also provide the iTunes library in XML format which any third party developer can use to sync media from the library to their device. RIM makes use of this XML document to facilitate media syncing in their windows and mac Blackberry desktop applications and Palm could have done the same with the Palm pre.
It would be a trivial matter to write a syncing agent using the Library XML and I could probably write one in a few days.
Not only is palm using iTunes to sync media from the library but they are also syncing contacts and photos by piggy backing on the syncing services Apple built into windows/os x for syncing the iPhone and iPod touch. That goes beyond trying to just access media from iTunes.
If you really are the famous Bruce Perens, explain to me why Palm should be allowed to piggy back on Apple's work for syncing windows pictures and contacts. Would you support non-GPL software piggy backing on GPL'd software in the same way on linux or would you have a double standard on that issue? Are you telling us that you would attach a GPL violator but defend someone who is violating their license agreement with the USB IF?
I sincerely hope that you are not actually Bruce Perens and that someone has hacked your account because if that is not the case, you have become an embarrassment to the OSS movement much like RMS has become.
Re:Apple's activity is criminal here, Palm's is le (Score:2, Informative)
But again, Apple does offer interoperability, in a documented and supported way.
In a second class, highly crippled way. There is no Sync capability. No playlist support.
The fact that they can not prevent you from drag-and-drop using your computer's operating system hardly constitutes a level playing field.
Who really needs iTunes, anyway? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:This again... (Score:1, Informative)
If they had not 'fixed' the itunes software on purpose to prevent its use with Palms, the Palm would not have needed to present itself as an iPod. Then they could have presented the device with its true name.
While breaking functionality for other vendors' devices may not be illegal (IANAL), it is certainly unethical. As an engineer I would feel dirty for writing code like this. It is the kind of thing Microsoft has always done, and why I've always thought that MS is an unethical company. Adding code to software to break compatibility with competitors' hard/software should be forbidden. I have no problem with not taking any time to become compatibel, but breaking compatibility on purpose is just wrong.......
Re:Apple's activity is criminal here, Palm's is le (Score:3, Informative)
I certainly agree that Apple is trying to use its dominance to gain footholds in other industries.
However, it is false to say that you cannot sync a music file purchased from itunes to another device. ITMS files are no longer DRMd. You can use any music player or music library managing software you like. What you cannot do is use itunes to sync it.
Small distinctions like this are worth noting
Re:Patents (Score:3, Informative)
USB-IF is essentially a committee to push adoption of USB. Microsoft, Intel, HP, ST-Ericsson, NEC, and LSI are the primary members and Intel heads the board. This group does not hold copyright or patent to USB, only trademark to the USB logos.
USB is a standard. Only the logos can be fought over.
Re:Apple's activity is criminal here, Palm's is le (Score:4, Informative)
The iTunes software does treat non-Apple devices differently. It ignores them. Apple doesn't want to support other hardware with their syncing software, and aren't legally required to do so.
What they did instead was provide an API so anyone can access the media in your iTunes library. Plenty of other devices are able to access that library using the documented method, including the PS3 and Xbox 360 (3rd party software broadcasts your library through a UPnP server).
So there is more than one reason Palm "has" to resort to USB ID spoofing. And that additional reason is their laziness and cheapness about developing their own syncing software as stated above. This has been a long-standing problem with Palm devices. They gave up producing Mac sync software in particular from almost day one of their history, necessitating the development of third party tools such as "The Missing Sync for Palm".
Simliar to the reasoning above, you might say that Palm was in violation of anti-trust, since they had the most popular PDA of the time, and didn't support non-Windows platforms, forcing Apple and Linux users to reverse engineer the device's protocol and file structure.
Re:I remember (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I remember (Score:3, Informative)
right - but why should Palm have to sync by apple's supported (and less good) route.
by appearing as an ipod, the Pre gets a much smoother sync experience. It appears right in iTunes in the bar on the right. I don't need any extra software.
Re:I remember (Score:3, Informative)
That is illogical:
Palm is not complaining that they can't access the music. Palm is complaining that they can't use iTunes by tricking it in thinking it is an iPod. Apple has released an API if Palm wanted to interface with iTunes. Palm refuses to use it.
Re:Apple's activity is criminal here, Palm's is le (Score:5, Informative)
The actual legal standard for a monopoly is the ability to set prices without regard to the offerings of competitors. MS was ruled a monopoly on PC OSes because they could set the price of Windows at several hundred dollars (retail) and ~$50.00 for OEMs even though their competition, (linux, the various open source BSDs, etc.) cost zero dollars.
In order for Apple to be ruled a monopoly in the digital music player market, they would need to be proven to have the ability to set the prices for ipods without regard for the price of other music players. This would be a very tough sell in a court of law.
The argument that iTunes has any sort of monopoly would be even tougher because it is free, and the legal definition relates to *inflated* price of the supposed monopoly holder's offering.
The argument that the iTunes music store is any sort of monopoly would similarly have to rely on Apple being able to price their song offings at an exorbitantly high level. Again this would be a very tough sell.
So, from an anti-trust perspective, it would be very hard for Palm or anyone else to argue that Apple is a monopoly.
Paul may (or may not) have a legal argument for using Apple's vendor ID from the perspective of interoperability, but the monopoly argument is not very likely to fly for the simple reason that Apple has real competitors in all these areas. These competitors' products are not prices so wildly below Apple's that Apple could be considered a legal monopoly in any of these three areas (digital music player, pc software for organizing/playing/purchasing digital music, online sales of digital music).
Apple is just winning because their offerings are preferred by the buying public, not because they've got any sort of lock-in strangle hold on the market.
Re:Apple's activity is criminal here, Palm's is le (Score:1, Informative)
I'm not even going to bother looking because I'm terribly afraid that if I did, or even if I looked in something as non-developer-related as a common encyclopedia-like reference about iTunes itself, I'd pretty easily see I'm wrong, meaning I'd have one less avenue of anti-Apple rage, and my entire reputation is built around seething in my own hatred.
There, fixed that for ya [wikipedia.org]. Like, where it says that it writes the library in an XML format that other apps can read.
Re:Apple's activity is criminal here, Palm's is le (Score:1, Informative)
"I have to agree. There would be only one reason for Palm to need to resort to USB ID spoofing."
No, there's a second possible reason: Palm is too damn lazy/cheap to make their own interface, like RIM does for the Blackberry [blackberry.com].
The real question is: why is Palm doing it the standard-violating way? I don't get it.
Re:Apple's activity is criminal here, Palm's is le (Score:3, Informative)
Your quote is very easy to misunderstand, whether that is intentionally, I don't know. I'll spell it out a bit clearer:
Palm has complained to the USB Implementers Forum. Palm claims that Apple prevents the Pre from syncing with iTunes (which we know is true). Palm also claims that by doing so, Apple is violating its USB-IF Membership Agreement. The USB Implementers Forum has finally responded to Palm's complaint.
What you haven't quoted is what the article further said: The USB IF's answer was that Palm is violating _its_ membership agreement by shipping hardware that pretends to be an iPod made by Apple.
Re:Apple's activity is criminal here, Palm's is le (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, iTunes has built in support for a limited number of 3rd party hardware devices. Some of that is legacy support carried over from the old SoundJam app that iTunes evolved from. (I have an old Rio 500 which used SoundJam for sync, and later iTunes.)
There are also some phones other than the iPhone hat legitimately sync with iTunes, such as the Moto ROKR and SLVR. (I own a SLVR also.)
Apple may not be legally required to support other devices with iTunes, but they have in the past and they could probably be convinced to do so in the future. It might cost some money, but I'm sure an arrangement could be made.
Totally agreed that Palm is being lazy and cheap by not writing their own sync software, or paying for someone else's product.
Re:Apple's activity is criminal here, Palm's is le (Score:4, Informative)
Apple may also be seen as a monopoly - I think Palm has a good chance of making that point in court, going by the market share, and the size of the secondary market of various iPod-specific devices.
Re:Apple's activity is criminal here, Palm's is le (Score:4, Informative)
Reading the XML file doesn't support playlists? Really?
There sure is lots of information under the following headings in my XML file for some reason (brackets have been altered to get past the HTML tag filter):
(key)Playlists(/key) ...
(array)
(dict)
(key)Name(/key)(string)Library(/string)
(key)Master(/key)(true/)
(key)Playlist ID(/key)(integer)8378(/integer)
(key)Playlist Persistent ID(/key)(string)F71331C9D57061AB(/string)
(key)Visible(/key)(false/)
(key)All Items(/key)(true/)
(key)Playlist Items(/key)
Please be quiet if you don't know what you are talking about. There really is no excuse for palm being too lazy or incompetent to develop their own syncing software.
Re:Apple's activity is criminal here, Palm's is le (Score:5, Informative)
and this requires also that you must run their sync software in the background.
Making your competitors run extra software means there isn't an even playing field.
Re:Apple's activity is criminal here, Palm's is le (Score:3, Informative)
If you want to read the iTunes library, with playlists and all other useful details, use the XML file.
On a Mac: If you want to make changes to the iTunes library, use AppleScript to send the changes to iTunes.
On a PC, there is a COM interface to iTunes (see http://developer.apple.com/sdk/ [apple.com])
Realistically, few care about syncing changes back to iTunes. You can do it, but the real usefulness is getting the songs onto the music device.
If you want to sync contacts, addresses, etc from your device, there is a set of APIs from Apple to do this. iTunes is a bit muddier, but still possible to sync in both directions on a Mac, and most likely on a PC.
Palm are making themselves dependant upon another vendor, a competitor no less, which is poor business sense. It's completely unnecessary, and others are doing this without fuss (see RIM).