Palm Announces Killer New Phone 617
Barence writes "At CES, Palm announced what promises to be the product that finally matches and even betters the Apple iPhone, and certainly looks to be the most important product announced at this year's Consumer Electronics Show. It's called the Palm Pre and it's based on a completely new operating system, called Palm webOS. Its key specs include a 3.1in 320x 480 touchscreen, 8GB of storage, UMTS HDSPA support (in the UK version of the phone), 802.11b/g WLAN, Bluetooth, and GPS. It also includes a slide-out Qwerty keyboard, 3.5mm headphone jack, and what Palm described as the 'fastest ever' Texas Instruments OMAP processor."
3.5 mm? o.o (Score:3, Funny)
Ooh, I can use it as an actual music player now :D
Now, if I could just *afford* it...
I hate being in college sometimes.
Re:3.5 mm? o.o (Score:5, Funny)
I hate being in college sometimes.
Soon you'll be saying: "I hate paying off college sometimes." :)
Re:3.5 mm? o.o (Score:5, Insightful)
And sometime after you finally get your college loans payed off, and you're married with a mortgage you're paying and three kids, you'll be saying
. wait for it
. wait for it
.
"I wish I was back in college".
Re:3.5 mm? o.o (Score:5, Funny)
And the next thing you know, you're saying "Get off my lawn!"
Re:3.5 mm? o.o (Score:5, Insightful)
No...stay there as long as possible...it is your last place to be where fun/childish behavior is sanctioned and acceptable.
Sure, you have more money when you get into the real world, but, you also have to work, and have responsibilities. Especially if you get married. If you want the best of both worlds...don't hurry into marriage when you get out. In that case, yes, you have some more adult responsibilities, but, you do get to keep and burn more of that money you start to earn for yourself...and you can still get away with acting somewhat like an idiot, and you don't have someone bitching at you to 'act right'. You also are strapped with potentially a lifetime ending anchor of a kid...at least not yet.
So..stay in as long as possible. But, once out...stay single for awhile...no need to get completely locked down into full 'adult' life right away. At the very worst...if you have to, don't marry the girl, just live with her....kinda like leasing with an option to buy.
Re:3.5 mm? o.o (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you're completley wrong on the marriage thing.
I certainly wouldn't rush into it, or rush into having children, but being married gives me one person I can be fun/childish with every day guaranteed (living with would work here too). Being married also has a huge benefit when it comes to wasting money. My wife and I can afford, and maintain a 3 bedroom house, either of us on our own would not be able to afford a 2 bedroom apartment, or maintain a house.
Additionally I vacuum half as often save 30-50 percent on the bills, and don't need to cook all the time (most of these apply to living with someone too).
These are not reasons to get married, I just simply wanted to point out it is not the end of childishness/fun. If you really want to commit to spending your life with someone, and makign the compromises that will be required (it's two way if done right) it is not something to dread or avoid. And it can certainly lead to having more money to spend on yourself, not less.
Heh... (Score:4, Insightful)
Ah, but I suspect that you haven't read the famous quote from Sigmund Freud:
"Two can live as cheaply as one, especially if they both have good jobs."
Thrown in FWIW as devil's advocacy, since I actually agree, having been married for over 20 years...
Re:3.5 mm? o.o (Score:5, Insightful)
Just my $.02, but while this may be true, it can set you up for The Two Income Trap [motherjones.com]. In the long term, you'll find greater security (and happiness too) by living closer to the means of only one.
Case in point. My wife died three years ago, but as we always lived within the means of one salary (mostly), financially I'm fine, as would she have been if I had died instead.
Re:3.5 mm? o.o (Score:4, Interesting)
I'll bite, at the expense of undoing about 8 mod points.
The book is based on presumptions and faulty logic. It may be true if you have 2 earners you're twice as likely to be affected by layoff or other employment related economic interruption. However, with 2 earners you're only losing 40-60% of your household income in the face of a layoff, versus 100% for a 1 income. This makes a 2 earner household more resilient.
The real reason for for skyrocketing bankruptcy in middle income households with children is the exploding cost of goods along with unbridled middle class spending. For almost 2 generations, families have been moving more frequently from house to house using each one as a short term credit card based on the faulty assumption that the value of the house will NECESSARILY go up. They use that equity to pay off some debt, but each time they get a raise or other windfall they purchase a newer bigger better house with a 3rd garage stall or a 4th bedroom or a bigger yard.
Regardless of the number of incomes in the house, its important that people make rational fiscal decisions which includes setting a reasonable budget. When they find themselves making much more than their budget, they should be investing it in short to medium term CD's(for now) to reinvest into their mortgage or blow down their debt.
No, children aren't the cause of bankruptcy. Its more likely that there is a correlation between fiscal irresponsibility and those who have children.
Two Income Trap (Score:5, Insightful)
"However, with 2 earners you're only losing 40-60% of your household income in the face of a layoff, versus 100% for a 1 income. This makes a 2 earner household more resilient."
A two earner household is only more resilient if, and only if, it can stay afloat for a significant period of time on a single salary. If, as the parent implies, they need BOTH salaries to make the mortgage payment, the car payments, pay the student loans and the credit cards and the other bills, THEN they are susceptible to the Two Income Trap. Lose just one salary in that case, and the ship begins to take on water and sink.
Further, you tend to imply that gross overspending is the major cause behind bankruptcy, when in fact two of the major triggers are job loss and medical problems. Get sick, or involved in a significant accident, and one wage earner can lose their job just when they're getting hit with major medical expenses. Children are a issue too, but often because parents buy that "two income" house in order to be closer to better schools.
If at all possible, it's best to try to keep base expenses within the range of a single salary, and use the second for savings and investments, vacations, eating out, supporting hobbies, and so on. Then, and only then, is a two earner household truly "more resilient" and not susceptible to "the trap".
Re:3.5 mm? o.o (Score:4, Interesting)
These are not reasons to get married, I just simply wanted to point out it is not the end of childishness/fun. If you really want to commit to spending your life with someone, and makign the compromises that will be required (it's two way if done right) it is not something to dread or avoid. And it can certainly lead to having more money to spend on yourself, not less.
Okay, I realize the average age on Slashdot is pretty low, but - this seems fairly immature to me (and I realize you're not necessarily espousing this position, just responding to it). If a person is that concerned with having lots of money to spend on themselves, they're not ready for a significant relationship.
Also, as a husband and a dad, I can say having kids doesn't have to "end your fun". As my daughter grew up I got the chance to see a lot of movies I'd have been too embarrassed to admit wanting to see. I have a blast playing video games and watching old movies with her. She's also an enjoyable person just to spend time with.
I LOVE being a dad - I wouldn't trade it for anything.
Re:3.5 mm? o.o (Score:4, Insightful)
Every month...same chick...who knows exactly which spot to touch.
No akward first-time-with-new-person sex.
It totally sucks, lemme tell you.
Re:3.5 mm? o.o (Score:5, Insightful)
No akward first-time-with-new-person sex."
Yeah..but, then she gets fat...etc...and you're stuck with her.
Not to mention (and I heard this from a LOT of my married friends) kiss BJ's good by...she just did that to snag you.
Apparently the old joke about what food destroys a woman's sex drive (wedding cake) holds true for a lot of them out there, and you don't find out till after your married and then your screwed (no pun intended).
Apparently you got lucky. Good for you...
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re:3.5 mm? o.o (Score:4, Insightful)
just because it's "off-topic" doesn't mean it can't be insightful. the GP's post was simply following the course of the conversation. he didn't hijack the thread or post about something completely random that has nothing to do with the thread.
i mean, when you have a conversation with someone off-line do you bitch about people being "off-topic" whenever the conversation naturally progresses to or touches on a new topic? this is a casual discussion, not a goddamn book report.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
OTOH, don't wait 'till age 49 to have your first kid (voice of experience here).
I love him like nothing else in the world, but God; my back, my knees...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:3.5 mm? o.o (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Mod parent DOWN!
That is one of the saddest and most cynical posts I've ever seen on Slashdot, and I've been here for a while.
I got married seven years ago (I was 22) to a woman I met in college after only two years in college. We had a daughter almost three years ago. I have a great, challenging job in information security with responsibilities and a career path. Our only debt is a car loan that will be paid off within the year and our mortgage that will be paid off around the time our daughter goes to coll
Re:3.5 mm? o.o (Score:5, Insightful)
.it is your last place to be where fun/childish behavior is sanctioned and acceptable.
Or have kids. Nothing keeps you younger or acting more child-like than playing with kids - plus you have an excuse to but all those cool toys you didn't have when you were a kid and want to play with now! :-)
Re:3.5 mm? o.o (Score:5, Funny)
You better. Same thing often happens _after_ you get married
sorry! (Score:4, Interesting)
Ooh, I can use it as an actual music player now :D
Now, if I could just *afford* it...
I hate being in college sometimes.
from the answer:
"Though the demonstration was impressive, notable absentees from the demo were video streaming and any in-depth show of the music player."
It also has an externally replaceable battery, so one guesses the individual batteries won't last as long as an iphone or else it's thick as a brick. (they don't give the dimensions or show it in profile)
No mention of the enterprise-like push apps that Rim and iphone now sport. No mention of corresponding desktop based easy-management software like itunes or me.com
and of course it is yet-another OS. is there an SDK?
Re:sorry! (Score:4, Insightful)
It also has an externally replaceable battery, so one guesses the individual batteries won't last as long as an iphone or else it's thick as a brick. (they don't give the dimensions or show it in profile)
Why would one guess that the battery won't last as long as the one in the iPhone? One would think that a user-replaceable consumable such as a battery would be a good thing
Because removable batteries add space requirements (Score:4, Insightful)
Why would one guess that the battery won't last as long as the one in the iPhone?
Because engineering all the space for a compartment with walls (to keep you from screwing up the insides of the phone) and walls around the battery itself (to keep keys from puncturing it in your pocket) all waste space that can be taken up by battery material.
Thus, you either have to make the device larger to compensate or the battery will simply not last as long. Not to mention the processor in the Palm device is faster and probably consumes more energy...
Even with it's slightly larger size the G1 gets mixed revues on battery life for the same reason, when you are running 3G you are eating a ton of battery and there's no avoiding the advantage of more battery material.
Re:sorry! (Score:4, Informative)
"Though the demonstration was impressive, notable absentees from the demo were video streaming and any in-depth show of the music player."
PalmOS has had PocketTunes for years -- and Pandora already has a version for WebOS. Music player won't be a problem.
Video streaming? Don't know. Don't REALLY care.
It also has an externally replaceable battery, so one guesses the individual batteries won't last as long as an iphone or else it's thick as a brick. (they don't give the dimensions or show it in profile)
If you bother'd to look:
"Dimensions: 59.57mm (W) x 100.53mm (L, closed) x 16.95mm (D) [2.35 inches (W) x 3.96 inches (L, closed) x 0.67 inches (D)] " (link [palminfocenter.com])
The iPhone not having a user-replaceable battery is just dumb. It's the one thing on a device that WILL wear out, and it's also the one that gets the most benefit from being user-replaceable.
No mention of the enterprise-like push apps that Rim and iphone now sport. No mention of corresponding desktop based easy-management software like itunes or me.com
1: Did you even WATCH the presentation? Yes, it can do enterprise-push. The darn thing screams enterprise in the OS.
2: If you think iTunes software is "easy", then I'm certain Palm won't be a problem for you. They didn't mention it because, quite frankly, they're not focused on desktopy sync.
and of course it is yet-another OS. is there an SDK?
It's HTML5, CSS, and javascript. And yes, there will be an SDK packaged with an eclipse-based IDE.
How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:4, Insightful)
Thus far, I have yet to see an "iPhone killer" do anything of the sort.
If Palm wants to do so, they're going to have to do everything the iPhone does and do it better. That means the interface and the integration, as well. The past decade of iPod dominance has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that neither a laundry list of features nor a very appealing price can compete with cool factor and a really nice user experience.
Dan Aris
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:5, Funny)
If they want a killer phone... just add a gun in it :D
or use old sony battery
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
but I doubt Palm have as nice developer tools as Apple
From Ars:
Any web developer can use CSS, HTML, and JavaScript to develop applications for the OS; there are no new languages to learn
I'm no developer, but can't you just pick your favorite IDE and go to town with that? I would imagine there'll even be some devs who just use Nano or Notepad.
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:4, Interesting)
Funny, when Apple announced that you could develop on the iPhone with CSS, HTML, and JavaScript from day 1, developers revolted and demanded a "real" SDK. It will be interesting to see how that goes for Palm.
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:5, Informative)
The big difference here is that with webOS;
1) The apps are actually stored locally
2) Palm is apparently allowing access to the hardware via CSS, HTML, and JavaScript (details are scarce right now), something no one else does right now
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:5, Insightful)
2) Palm is apparently allowing access to the hardware via CSS, HTML, and JavaScript (details are scarce right now), something no one else does right now
Yeah... what could possibly go wrong with that idea? :)
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a huge difference here.
Apple was basically telling developers "you can make iPhone-optimized websites! They're just like apps, honest!"
Palm is telling developers "our SDK is based around web conventions that any web developer would already be familiar with."
Probably the biggest difference here is that with WebOS, you're actually installing an app to run locally. Pre-SDK iPhone was nothing more than websites that could disappear once you ducked into the subway.
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:5, Informative)
The Palm Mojo SDK
Besides the Palm Mojo Application Framework, the SDK will include sample code, documentation, and development tools. An Eclipse-based IDE is included, and you will also be able to use your choice of tools to build WebOS applications. The Mojo SDK is currently in private prerelease, and will be available later this year as a free download from the Palm Developer Network.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:5, Interesting)
I would agree with you, only that I have a G1 now. The only thing the kept me from getting one before was the poor appearance from pictures. On daily use, however, I've found the build quality and the hardware itself is good and not toy-ish at all. If it came with a glossy black front and a chrome back then it would be even better, but you have to consider the number people putting rubber gimp masks on their iPhone to protect their little precious from getting hurt, so what's the point?
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:4, Interesting)
The "rubber gimp masks" aren't to keep the phones from getting scratched, they are to keep a better grip on them. the damn things are slippery, especially with some of the wii-like games...
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:4, Interesting)
My prediction is that Android will not kill the iPhone for some time. Partly because the dev tools aren't as polished as Apples but to be honest as a potential developer myself, the toolset is less important than the API's. Unfortunately the Android API's are an area that seems somewhat deficient in a number of places (real-time low latency PCM audio anyone - how can something so fundamental have been so badly done?!). Anyone wanting to write any half-way serious game or audio based app is stuck using a shitty "send-this-file-to-the-output" style API.
There are other areas too where Apple just seem to have put a lot more thought into how things hang together - it's like the API's for the iPhone have been developed by people who have their usability as a prime concern, which sadly, with what I've seen so far, I can't say for Android.
Re:Developer Friendly...Apple?!? Joking, Right? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Developer Friendly...Apple?!? Joking, Right? (Score:5, Interesting)
Geez. Get over yourself. Objective-C isn't that difficult to get your head around if you've done any Java/C++/Smalltalk/Ruby/other OO development. They have some pretty good reasons for using it (the underlying OS uses it), and the tools and documentation that they give you to work with it (XCode/apple developer site) are excellent. As someone who develops software for a living (in Java) I'd be *THRILLED* if the docs that I had to work with from vendors that we deal with were a quarter as good as Apple's.
As for having to buy a Mac - do you think it's possible to develop for windows mobile without having a windows-based PC? I can totally understand Apple's point-of-view here - their time would be much better spent making the tools work, and work well rather than porting them to and testing them on other platforms.
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:5, Interesting)
Oops -- potential huge fail!
From Ars [arstechnica.com] (emphasis mine):
It's apparent that this radical shift in platform will mean that all existing Palm applications will be rendered obsolete. During the presentation this morning, it was said, "There are a few hundred-thousand Palm developers and a few million web developers." If there was a dark spot during the launch it would be this, but it's definitely not going to extinguish the excitement felt on the floor for this handset.
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:4, Interesting)
And good news for Palm OS developers! There are a number of ways to migrate data from a an existing PDB file to your new WebOS app.
Sooo...how were the original iPhone apps written? (Score:5, Insightful)
The real difference between the Palm Pre and the iPhone when it comes to developers, is that all Palm's standard apps that come with the phone were written with javascript, CSS, and HTML. They're "eating their own dogfood", so to speak.
So do you think the original iPhone apps were not written in Objective-C using Xcode?
Dan Aris
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:5, Insightful)
Chances are if they come too close to be an iPhone killer they are using some of apples patents.
While I do like seeing competition for the iPhone and iPod, It seems that a lot of people seem to miss the little details that Apple likes to put in its product, that makes it that much better.
For example I will use OS X and Ubuntu with AWN. They both have a fancy dock. AWN has way more features then the Mac OS X Dock. However it isn't really that usable. Things such as if you run a new app. I want to right click the running application and say keep on dock. Or just being able to drag and drop an App into awn from your file system browser... And get the correct Icon. Being able to group all open windows of the same application together. I am not talking about eyecandy, (like the OS X animations when you zoom in) but actual usability that people tend to miss when trying to copy the idea.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That has never happened to me, in 8 years of using OS X. I am not saying it isn't a problem, but it seems like a rare bug to me. There are bugs then there are usability issues.
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:5, Insightful)
If Palm wants to do so, they're going to have to do everything the iPhone does and do it better.
This is an unfair requirement - the Iphone after all doesn't do everything that every other phone does, after all! Missing features are accepted as "not something I'd need" or hand-waved away as "Grumpy featurism". So the same should be true of the Palm - it's okay to miss features, as not everyone may need every feature. As long as it just works, that's all that matters. It's the double standard - Apple products are okay as long as they have a "cool factor" (your words, not mine), but other products are held to some impossible standard of "must be able to do everything that any other phone can do, and more".
The only reason there's yet to be an Iphone killer is the same reason that there isn't a Nokia killer or a Motorola killer - no phone company is in a dominant position (and certainly not Apple - not even close I'm afraid), and no company has yet to produce a "killer" phone to put them in the dominant position.
The past decade of iPod dominance has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that neither a laundry list of features nor a very appealing price can compete with cool factor and a really nice user experience.
Ipod, yes. We're talking about a different market here.
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:5, Interesting)
"let alone have a chance at even guessing the specs?"
Exactly right!
I used to sell cars. Cars and computers are often similar in how they are sold. Take a look at a window sticker of a new car, and see all the "options" and "Upgrades" listed. Computers are marketed the same exact way ... "ATI VIDEO UPGRADE" is the same as "Alpine Stereo" or whatever, it is better than what the "stock" option is.
However, I'd compare Apple vs Dell/HP/Gateway etc as comparing Honda vs GM/Ford/Chrysler.
Honda sells Accords, there are only a few ways one can get an Accord. They have Two engines, three trim models. Their sticker is empty compared to a Taurus or whatever. Taurus has three engine options and who knows how many trim levels, and beyond trim levels you have all sorts of weird option packages and upgrades.
The limited choice of Apple and Honda are part of what makes it a GOOD choice, it is a very known quantity. If you say you have a MacBook Pro, people know you have one of a couple of options. It really is narrowed down. You say you have a Pavillion, I doubt you could get anyone to guess the specs.
The difference is differentiation by Experience (Honda/Apple) vs Differentiation by Spec (HP/FORD)
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:4, Insightful)
Perhaps, but at this point they're coming out with a product that more or less matches what the competition did 6 months ago. Does anyone doubt that this year's hardware from Apple is going to blow Apple's previous year's hardware out of the water? So what's the window of opportunity for this knock-off to "kill" the iPhone? To me it seems more of a desperation move to keep slightly relevant, by at least staying the game with a product in the same generation as everyone else.
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:4, Interesting)
There's another reason the iPhone has a good popular perception (over here in the UK at least).
Walk into a phone shop and I guarantee they'll either have no phones or the iPhone available to use.
Huh?
The iPhone is the only phone I've seen with working demo models on the high street. All other phones have only plastic carcasses nailed to the wall. Even the G1. How am I supposed to make a judgement about that?
This is in London and Reading, FYI.
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:5, Insightful)
and no company has yet to produce a "killer" phone to put them in the dominant position.
You're assuming that "dominant position" means "top selling". There are other forms of dominance - one of which is illustrated by the fact that we're having this discussion at all. The iPhone has become the benchmark against which any new smartphone is judged by the press and blogosphere.
It's the double standard - Apple products are okay as long as they have a "cool factor" (your words, not mine), but other products are held to some impossible standard of "must be able to do everything that any other phone can do, and more".
Thing is, Apple don't try for the ultimate feature list: they decide which features most people will actually want, and implement them well.
E.g. the iPhone famously doesn't have MMS. My HTC Windows Mobile smartphone does, and I've sent exactly 1 MMS message which took half an hour of faffing around to discover that you have to set the camera to the right resolution for MMS before you take the photo (and then remember to un-set it when you want to take a good quality photo). I think WM has cut & paste (another area where the iPhone gets slated) but buggered if I could successfully copy an EMAIL address from a text message into the contacts... The WM media player is unusable (iPhone is excellent); the web browser is unusable (iPhone may not have Flash and Java, but IE Mobile barely has HTML). On WM I can use my own MP3s as ringtones, but from the number of missed calls I get, I strongly suspect that people are hanging up before WM has got round to staring the player. Oh, and the phone is so carefully designed that its impossible to pick up in a hurry without pushing one of the buttons thoughtfully positioned exactly where you natually hold it (another reason for dropped calls). Maybe the iPhone camera isn't the best: but if I gave a toss about picture quality I'd use a proper camera with a proper lens: I've yet to successfully take anything other than a blurry mess with WM.
...so until I've had my hands on any new "iPhone killer" and determined that the impressive feature list has actually been implemented by someone with a clue and some capacity for attention to detail (i.e. it isn't a Windows Mobile device with a lipstick-on-a-pig iPhone lookalike skin) I'll reserve judgement.
I did have a play with the Google G1, and really, really want to like it, but the hardware is frankly bizzarre, the "real" keyboard is so small and untactile that its no better than the iPhone's on-screen keyboard and the processor doesn't have enough grunt to run the (not bad looking) web browser smoothly.
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:5, Insightful)
Thus far, I have yet to see an "iPhone killer" do anything of the sort.
If Palm wants to do so, they're going to have to do everything the iPhone does and do it better. That means the interface and the integration, as well.
The device has a keyboard. It isn't a good keyboard, but even so it's a whole lot better than the keyboard on the iPhone - and the lack of a keyboard is a significant part of the reason I don't have an iPhone. The contacts management software which was demo'ed is way better than the iPhone's. And if, as claimed, the device has good Microsoft Exchange support, then for many commercial users it's one better than the iPhone on that count as well.
Sure, it isn't a better music player. It may not be a better movie viewer. But the iPhone, despite being very pretty, isn't actually a very good telephone - contacts management is poor, reception is poor, battery life isn't good, sound quality is so-so. It's a great phone for people who don't use a mobile phone for their work - but most people do.
Of course, the iPhone's killer app is the iTunes store. For non-technical users it is quite simply the easiest way to locate, buy and install software to the phone. Palm (and Google and RIM and Microsoft) have to equal that, and it will not be easy.
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:4, Informative)
Yep, battery life on the iPhone is awful...
iPhone standby - 300 hours, talk - 5 hours 3G or 10 2G
Blackberry storm standby â" 300 hours, talk - 5.5 hours 3G or 6 2G
Nokia n96 standby 200 hours, talk - 2.7 hours 3G, 4 hours 2G
G1 standby â" 200 hours, talk - 5.5 hours 3G or 6 2G
Looks like the iPhone wins on every count.
The keyboard is a matter of opinion, personally, I'd rather type on an iPhone keyboard than any smartphone keyboard I've used.
The reception on the iPhone is excellent, and the problems in america with reception were quickly identified as being AT&T's fault (their 3G network wasn't up to having double the amount of data transfered over it).
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Erm, except for 3G usage, where the G1 and the Storm beat it, apparently.
And frankly, that's all I use my iPhone for.
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:4, Interesting)
The device has a keyboard. It isn't a good keyboard, but even so it's a whole lot better than the keyboard on the iPhone - and the lack of a keyboard is a significant part of the reason I don't have an iPhone.
I've used several smartphones extensively, both with and without keyboards. I've had the most direct experience with a Treo 650, an HTC Apache, and an iPhone.
When I first started using each device, the hardware keyboards were without a doubt, much easier to use. After getting used to the iPhone keyboard, though, I have to say that it's perfectly adequate for text entry. One of the keys is to let it autocorrect for you. 90% of the time, it corrects to what I meant to type. Most of the failures are due to the use of acronyms that I haven't bothered to capitalize (and it will learn those.)
The contacts management software which was demo'ed is way better than the iPhone's.
That's not hard to imagine. Nevertheless, the iPhone was one of the first smartphones (and definitely the first one I encountered) to have a "favorites" list. This let me really cut back on the cruft while still having everyone in the corp and their dog in my phone.
But the iPhone, despite being very pretty, isn't actually a very good telephone
reception is poor
There were problems with reception on 3G at first. Those were fixed in an update. I now never have problems getting a full 3G signal, and I don't get dropouts anymore. This is in the US.
battery life isn't good
It's quite on par with other recent smartphones.
sound quality is so-so
What do you mean by this, exactly?
It's a great phone for people who don't use a mobile phone for their work - but most people do.
When the iPhone first came out, they definitely weren't targeting business people who use their cell phones constantly for work. They were targeting the every-person. With the 2.0 software release, they started targeting business users more heavily, and they've got a little ways to go to be sure. I think it's an overall well-balanced device, though.
Of course, the iPhone's killer app is the iTunes store. For non-technical users it is quite simply the easiest way to locate, buy and install software to the phone. Palm (and Google and RIM and Microsoft) have to equal that, and it will not be easy.
I don't think that they'll be able to equal the App Store for a long, long while. Apple's got a rather large portion of the "smarter than a normal cellphone" market. The same thing that keeps people writing apps for Windows will keep people writing apps for the iPhone.
All that said, I picked the iPhone for two reasons. One is the browser, and the other is the mail client. At the time, no other phone came close to Safari on the iPhone for rendering quickly and correctly. As it is, I've only seen one other browser come close--the 9.x release of Opera Mobile. It also uses a viewport with smooth zooming and Opera's fantastic rendering engine. It's quite a bit slower, though, and uses quite a bit of memory.
Palm didn't say that (Score:5, Insightful)
to be fair to palm, they have been very careful about avoiding the term 'iPhone killer'
From Newsweek:
>>>
So: is it an iPhone killer? McNamee wishes people wouldn't ask that question. "Everyone in the cell-phone business has missed the point. They're all trying to make an iPhone killer. I don't want to compete with Apple. Why the hell would you want to get in the way of that machine? I look at the guys who are trying to compete with Apple and I think, Are you guys crazy? I just want to learn from Apple's experience."
>>>
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:5, Insightful)
What I find disturbing is that people consider this to be "the most important product announced at this year's Consumer Electronics Show." When as explained in the article, it's something that's as good as a product that's already been on the market for two years.
There seems to be an unhealthy amount of Apple hate in that statement - either the iPhone is a good product and has been out for 2 years, making this unimpressive (though good that there's competition); or the iPhone is an awful product, and this being "just as good" is thoroughly unimpressive!
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:5, Funny)
What I find disturbing is that people consider this to be "the most important product announced at this year's Consumer Electronics Show." When as explained in the article, it's something that's as good as a product that's already been on the market for two years.
Indeed - a product that people think is good because it can do what other phones have done for years? It's like the Iphone release all over again ;)
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:5, Funny)
Thus far, I have yet to see an "iPhone killer" do anything of the sort.
My Jitterbug disagrees.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If Palm wants to do so, they're going to have to do everything the iPhone does and do it better. That means the interface and the integration, as well.
Of course, Palm are the long-standing masters of handheld UI and desktop integration. For a long time, nothing could beat the Palm handhelds for simplicity and effectiveness of UI, and their desktop software integrated well with most popular desktop productivity software.
True, they've lagged behind a lot recently, but it'll be interesting to see what they've
What there need to be an iPhone killer? (Score:5, Insightful)
That would be a sensible aim if the iPhone was the market leader.
Now, show us some reference where the iPhone is shown to be leading the market.
From Nokia's Q3 report:
"Nokia estimated mobile device market share of 38%, down from 39% in Q3 2007 and down from 40%
in Q2 2008."
and later
"NOKIA MOBILE DEVICE VOLUME BY GEOGRAPHIC AREA (million units) Q3/2008 Q3/2007 YoY
Change Q2/2008 QoQ
Change
Europe 27.4 29.0 -5.5% 27.1 1.1%
Middle East & Africa 21.5 19.3 11.4% 21.1 1.9%
Greater China 19.8 18.9 4.8% 17.6 12.5%
Asia-Pacific 33.6 29.5 13.9% 36.4 -7.7%
North America 4.5 5.4 -16.7% 4.5 0.0%
Latin America 11.0 9.6 14.6% 15.3 -28.1%
Total 117.8 111.7 5.5% 122.0 -3.4%
"
From Apple's 2008 Q4 report: "Quarterly iPhone units sold were 6,892,000"
So Nokia is selling 117 million units, Apple is selling 7 million.
According to Nokia's report the global market for the period was 300 million units.
Again, why do we need to kill the iPhone?
That the iPhone is mentioned as the aim to be killed is a testament to the marketing skills of Apple.
The general public is not that stupid: we don't want network lockin (not in Europe, not in East Asia, the biggest mobile markets) and people are clearly finding the iPhone deals extortionate.
Certainly other companies need to do something about the mindshare that Apple is enjoying now, but I wonder how important that is going to be once Steve Jobs leaves Apple. His marketing based vision of the company will be difficult to be push by somebody that is not as charismatic as him (he has been described as a cult leader, which is not far from the truth).
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, it may not be an iPhone killer, but it's also not going to be a Blackberry killer, either. It's just going to be another touchscreen phone that's lost in a sea of touchscreen phones that aren't made by Apple or RIM. After going through the personal agony of owning a few Palm devices (pre-Treo), I, like many others, have given up on Palm. They're big on talk, but that's about it.
On the other hand, since my expectations are pretty damn low, I guess they shouldn't have too much trouble meeting them.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I already have an iPhone killer ... ....it's called a phone - longer battery life, makes and receives calls, can be used on any network
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Older Palm OS phones are pretty open, as far as apps go. Can put pretty much anything on there.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Take a seat, breathe deeply... The world doesn't revolve around you, in fact it doesn't even register than you exist and it certainly couldn't care what phone you are waiting for.
People who know what 'open' even means in terms of software are a tiny proportion of the market and the fact that you don't think a closed phone can be good is almost entirely irrelevant to how this will be reviewed.
From the TFA (Score:5, Informative)
For example, Duarte cattily said: "By popular demand we've allowed you to remove the back and replace the battery," which was greeted with much enthusiasm from the largely American crowd.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Battery is user replaceable according to the article.
Re:How many iPhone killers is that? (Score:5, Insightful)
You left out "insanely zealous fan base willing to pay twice as much for a shorter
laundry list and more vendor lockdown than half a dozen competitors".
By that logic, Apple has a zealous fan base that consist of like 75% of the MP3 owners. However only like 10% of the computer market (if you are being very conservative), so does that mean that these huge droves of apple fanbois are abstaining from buying an apple computer?
I'd argue that you've got about as many hardcore mac fanbois on the iPod as you do in the computer market that will buy anything apple sells, that should be in the single digit percentages overall. The rest of the 75% dominance of the iPod is from an actual good design that outshines the other mp3 players.
The iPhone is no different, there is a small percentage that buys it because it's from Cupertino, the rest of them are buying it because it eclipses all other smart phones out there for them.
Sheldon
killer phone (Score:5, Funny)
quick its coming right at us /ned
Two important points ... (Score:4, Funny)
1 - Is is shiny ?
2 - Will it blend ?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
The pictures look shiny... only one test left..
*Finally* matches/betters the iPhone? (Score:5, Insightful)
There have been plenty of phones on the world market better than the iPhone for some time now.
The iPhone wasn't even the best phone in the world when it came out.
Re:*Finally* matches/betters the iPhone? (Score:5, Interesting)
I am in full agreement. Sure, the Iphone is a nice phone, but it's just one of many. To be fair, the fault is with PC Pro rather than Slashdot who are just quoting this nonsensical statement ("finally matches and even betters the Apple iPhone").
Although in a way, it's a cunning statement - whilst fans would want to accept PC Pro's belief that the Iphone is the Best Phone Ever, they can't agree with this statement without admitting that the Palm is better than the Iphone. For the rest of us, who have been using phones long before the Iphone joined the market late, we'll just ignore the statement and judge the Palm against the market as a whole.
Re:*Finally* matches/betters the iPhone? (Score:5, Insightful)
Palm built a brand once. Then they squandered it. They could build it again.
Apple went through the same pattern.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I think that would be hard for Palm to do.
Back when I got my first Palm (a IIIe) in 2000 or so, Palm was the epitome of gadgety-goodness: simple to use, long battery life, and open to development. I'm not even trained a programmer and I tinkered with Palm programming (heck, for a couple of months I was actually working on a Palm program for an employer). I owned that original IIIe, a IIIc (with color!), a T-3 and two Treos. Palm devices were simple, fast, and reliable--with a user interface that wasn't clon
No GSM support in the US? (Score:4, Insightful)
Only Sprint. I don't think switching will even be a consideration for a lot of people. Palm always finds a way to screw themselves. Too bad, looks like a great phone.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Verizon has at least one phone (Blackberry 8830) that works on both CDMA and GSM.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Looks cool, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
They made a lightning fast, small, good looking, stable, awe-inspiring operating system that didn't actually run anything useful.
Apple showed it is never too late. (Score:4, Insightful)
Apple was in the doldrums before Steve Jobs' come back.
Microsoft invested money on them for crying out loud.
Palm has a brand recognition that can be put to good use, if they come with a good product they could become big players again. Openness is key, they should remember how quickly Palm became ubiquitous thanks to the easy access to development tools.
WebOS -- "WEB"-OS (Score:5, Interesting)
Killer Fast Phone (Score:5, Funny)
Can Palm do anything right? (Score:5, Interesting)
I absolutely loved my Palm Pilot Pro and gladly paid for the Palm III upgrade module for it. I eagerly bought a Palm V but I was disappointed when I got a Tungsten E and even more disappointed to discover that the 802.11 add in card simply wouldn't work with the Tungsten E.
My Palm TX is a huge disappointment and I would have returned it (or never bought it in the first place) except that I have a major need for one specific specialized application that uses 802.11.
I've heard awful things from people with Palm based phones.
Palm has bungled one generation after another. I've just lost any confidence in them being able to do anything competent.
This could save Palm (Score:5, Insightful)
Support Verizon, and I'll be the first in line for this. Why is it that we never get any love from the phone manufacturers?
I don't think it's *quite* on the level of the iPhone, though it certainly seems to have come the closest of any thus far. The UI looks a lot nicer than Android, and the hardware nicer than the iPhone (physical keyboard FTW).
As long as Palm make the price reasonable, and keep the application interface as open as possible, they'll sell a ton of these.
Frankly, I'm impressed, given that virtually everyone's been expecting Palm to kick the bucket in the near future.
Oh ffs (Score:5, Funny)
Can I mod down the original summary? 'Finally'? I've got an Android G1 and it beats the pants off the iPhone.
More detailed links (Score:5, Informative)
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20090108-resurrection-on-video-hands-on-with-the-palm-pre.html [arstechnica.com]
More details and analysis than the PCPro story.
but can you make phone calls with it? (Score:3, Interesting)
Can I open it up, punch buttons, and make a phone call? Can I drop it w/o it shattering? Can I lose it, without losing my entire personal identity?
Killer? (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm a Mac fan, but generally use the best tool I can and I don't have an iPhone or an iPod Touch, so I don't believe I really have a dog in this fight (for the record I have a Blackberry Curve [which is so=so at best], but mainly live in Japan and so have one of last year's au/WIN phones).
But this article's summary reminds of CmdrTaco's famous predictions for the original iPod. I read TFA and the phone pictured there doesn't look like an iPod killer. It doesn't even look like a phone from the last five years - it looks like fat, bulgy little free-with-service American phone from 2000 or 2001.
No one is going to beat Apple on specs. For better or for ill, the company is brilliant at style and presentation and those are huge factors in the iPhone's successes.
Moreover, the iPhone is out NOW and macrumors and other Apple sites are already beginning to rumble with information about the new iPhone software - the iPhone is moving ahead, with that and the App Store and where is this Palm phone?
A cell phone is a status symbol once again and until a good phone matches the iPhone in that arena, it's not going to kill it. I don't expect this Palm phone to, to be sure.
Technical details absent (Score:5, Informative)
I tried for some time last night to sift out Palm Pre details that Slashdot might actually find interesting, but no strong leads.
The PC Mag article was the only one I could find that touches on anything beyond the press release materials from CES:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2338482,00.asp [pcmag.com]
FTA:
* Does it run Linux? Maybe, but only according to rumors.
* Will existing PalmOS apps run on it? Hard to tell from their mangled wording, but probably not. However, it seems like their new WebOS SDK /might/ make it somewhat simple to recompile for the new platform.
So, as a Palm addict, it seems like I still have a long time to try to keep my ailing TX working until I can find a suitable platform to upgrade to. (So far, the main contender for me is the Nokia N810, which runs Linux and actually has a Palm Garnet emulation environment available for it)
Thanks but no thanks. (Score:5, Interesting)
After purchasing two of Palm's high end smart phones in the past, I've learned my lesson. They *DO NOT* support their phones. As soon as there's even an idea of a newer phone coming out, they drop all support for existing platforms and no more updates are ever seen for yours.
For example, they're currently releasing updates for the Centro series (a $99 phone) but not their 750series (a $500 phone) that are just over a year old. Way to reward your business customers palm.
would you buy a cell phone with NO support? (Score:4, Insightful)
I have a T3 and I know a dozen people with palm pilots. If there is ONE thing we can all agree on, it's that palm's support for their product is next to nonexistent. If you have a problem with your palm pilot, you'd better start looking in the various independent forums for help from other palm users. If they can't help you, you're just plain screwed.
I don't care if palm DOES come up with a better product than the iphone, I won't touch it with a 10 ft pole. Right now I am trying to decide whether to ditch my T3 for a touch or for an iPhone, so I can keep notes and have my addressbook on the go. Syncing on my T3 has been iffy at best, and is currently totally nonfunctional unless I want it to breed duplicates and erase data every time I sync, and the palm desktop software hasn't been updated in years.
I know that the touch and iphone will sync flawlessly with my computer, and I won't get that sickening feeling every time I sync it, wondering what it's going to erase this time. I get asked from time to time for help with others' palm pilots, and I hate to give them help because I feel so totally helpless in trying to prevent the thing from self-destructing their contacts. All I can do is make backups continuously throughout the process. The inability to make a backup of the PP directly into its SD card makes initial syncing one of the most dangerous computer tasks I ever have to deal with. I've seen palm desktop sync from an empty computer TO the palm, totally erasing it, on numerous occasions, despite following directions carefully. It's almost random. And once the computer and the palm get sufficiently out of sync, it creates such a mess that you have to wipe one and pray it syncs from the non-empty one to the one you wiped. I can't stand that.
Stay away from palm, please.
Fastest? (Score:4, Funny)
and what Palm described as the 'fastest ever' Texas Instruments OMAP processor."
Only if you hurl it from your car window on the freeway at 90 MPH.
Maybe that's where the "killer new phone" comment comes from, too....
And no one has ever lied about having a killer pru (Score:3, Insightful)
http://gizmodo.com/384440/rim-engineers-call-touchscreen-blackberry-apple-killer [gizmodo.com]
http://www.boingboing.net/2006/02/08/songbird-the-open-so.html [boingboing.net]
http://mediamemo.allthingsd.com/20081215/amazons-mp3-store-one-year-in-no-itunes-killer-probably-wont-be/ [allthingsd.com]
http://www.allfacebook.com/2007/10/facebook-to-launch-itunes-competitor/ [allfacebook.com]
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/business/appleaday/blog/2008/07/dells_ipod_killer_revealed_pro.html [baltimoresun.com]
http://news.cnet.com/2100-1027_3-5183692.html [cnet.com]
Is everything about an iphone killer? (Score:4, Insightful)
Symbian os still outsells ihpones grossly.
On the other hand, i remind whhat i love about my palm m105
-ran on 2AAA batteries for several weeks (if uses at phone book/clock/calendar). The baterries were available at the end of the world and it ran on rechargeable.
-monochrome display was readable in sunlight and had soft eye-friendly illumination
-the clock/calendar worked and did not crash (i had a z31 after that and found crashes in very basic functions)
-synchronization was easy
-memory was enough to have one or two dictionaries installed
I wonder how why palm wants to compete in the market where they are trying to compete now. would they produce a m105 with an e-paper display and in a more flat case and with flash, i would buy it without thinking twice. Would they integrate on of the power-saving an somple models with a few basic funcion (implemented decently) like email, simple web (no, youtube is not needed-and neither is flash) and UMTS (i need that since i live in Japan), i also would buy it.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Wierd. I've had a Palm for years, and it's only ever crashed once, and that was when I was testing out some beta OSS app on it that I thought I might want to use.
Which PalmOS? (Score:3, Informative)
I don't know if Palm is even currently selling anything that runs the original PalmOS. They throw in the towel on operating systems so often you need a scorecard to tell whether garnet/ruby/cubic-zirconium/mudstone is or is not vaporware.
The original PalmOS running under AMX was about as solid as anything I've seen on 1980-era hardware (the original Palm was running on a bug-compatible 68000 implementation). When they started playing musical-operating-systems and running applications under what appeared to
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It runs Linux Operating System version 2.6.x and with few software what gives the touch-screen capabilities it makes together a software platform called WebOS (not an operating system but a software system).
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I love analogies
So does Douglas Hofstadter [stanford.edu]