War Brewing on the Inexpensive Laptop Front 370
The Christian Science Monitor has an interesting look at the war brewing on the inexpensive laptop front. With everything from the Eee PC to the OLPC, the trend in slimming and trimming seems to be continuing. "The market segment is so new it doesn't have a name yet or even an agreed-upon set of specifications. Intel, the chipmaker, calls the category "netbooks," recognizing that much of what people do on their laptops involves going on the Net. The new machines are also being called ultra-low-cost PCs, mininotebooks, or even mobile Internet gadgets. In appearance, they have the familiar clamshell design, but they're smaller, with seven- to 10-inch screens. They offer full keyboards (albeit with smaller keys) and weigh less than three pounds. Perhaps most important, the majority cost less than $500 - some as little as $299. Intel says it expects more than 50 million of these netbooks to be sold by 2011. It's introduced a tiny, low-power processor to run them called Atom, which puts 47 million transistors on a chip about the size of a penny."
Palm or PocketPC (Score:3, Interesting)
what more do they need?
I bet you can get every TYPE of application they need on one of those.
So it wont run MS office or possibly even open office. But do they need much more than a notepad with spellcheck?
are you kidding? (Score:5, Insightful)
Fortunately, it's not an either/or choice: Linux actually scales really nicely from mobile to desktop devices.
I don't care about the OS myself (Score:2)
I can run the horsepower I have at home just fine.
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Unfortunately, I found no way of loading Linux in it (some other smartphone devices such as the ones made by HTC are easier to hack).
P.S. I did not bought the smartphone, it was a present from the company for which I work, for my personal use, and also to be able to test some nice remote desktop access sof
Are YOU kidding? (Score:3, Informative)
I believe you should do more research before posting:
PocketPuTTY [pocketputty.net]
Did you even try? http://www.google.com/search?q=ssh+windows+mobile [google.com]
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Re:Palm or PocketPC (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Palm or PocketPC (Score:5, Insightful)
I have an Eee PC for work. It has GCC, Python, Emacs, and the PostgreSQL client programs installed. You say "notepad with spellcheck". I say "tiny development system that lets me telecommute from my backyard on sunny days".
For me (and apparently millions of others), the Eee PC is the sweet spot for portable computing. It's small enough that I don't think twice about dragging it along wherever I'm going, and yet big enough that I'm not giving up anything. No "portable OS" will ever match the flexibility it offers.
And it will get better with ARM (Score:4, Interesting)
Ubuntu has got into the early stages of doing ARM distros, so ARM based systems with Ubuntu ease of use are potentially just around the corner.
Linux is still emerging as the primary portable OS. Unlike WinCE (which is a very nobbled thing that tries to look like Windows), ARM Linux is the real thing - using the same kernel code as any other Linux.
And it will get better with ATOM (Score:3, Interesting)
ARM took off in the thin and light space because of the watts. The thing is that ARM cannot compete with Atom in toolchain or processing power or available software or available hardware.
ARM can get better but there's a reason Intel sold it. It may live on in phones and devices like that.
For internet everywhere devices, no. Look at the available choices for browsers on ARM platforms. Blech. The Atom devices and their counterparts from via will run modern operating systems (but not vista) and familiar
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Do Firefox, Konqueror etc. not compile on ARM?
-1: Redundant
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But is there room for a text editor on there? ;)
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It makes sense (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:It makes sense (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, so you say pack it in your carry on? Yep, have done that too. Trust me you can feel the weight difference (part of it is the weight distribution of the larger laptops) when you're climbing stairs or up escalators or lifting it to the overheard space on the place
And it is not like I am a small out of shape guy. Any weight held or carried for a period of time gets heavy.
I love my 2.8 lb thinkpad. I would NEVER go back to the former Compaq 5-6lbs model EVER for my usage on the road.
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I have a $500 full size laptop, and I don't find it hard to carry around by any means. It's has a 14.1 inch screen and is pretty light and pretty thin.
I agree that $500 can buy a lot of value these days. For example, Dell's $500 base Vostro 1400 [dell.com] (with Core 2 based Celeron) can do a lot more than an Eee PC.
but neither one can just be shoved in your pocket as you leave the house. Both of them require some kind of backpack or shoulder bag to bring with you. So as far as I see it, the ultraportables, don't really offer much in terms of portability, because you can' just put them in your pocket, and a standard laptop lets you get your work done much easier.
This is where I disagree with your opinion. When carrying your laptop around, the size/weight difference between an Eee PC and a 5-lb 14" laptop is huge. At 8.9" x 6.5" x 1.4" and approximately 2 lbs, the Eee PC is comparable in "footprint" to a DVD box [anandtech.com] (just a little longer). I think many users can just carry an Eee PC around in one hand. Unlike a 14"
My ideal Eee PC ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It makes sense (Score:5, Interesting)
My Eee PC with Slackware 12.1 is probably the best thing I could have hoped for. It just does everything a UNIX Admin needs and is very compact... now I have more room for my Frappacino's and O-Scope in my bag!
Gotta be thankful Technology is getting to the point where smaller is becoming affordable.
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Re:It makes sense (Score:5, Funny)
If you're talking about modern laptops, I'd like to suggest that you talk to a doctor. No grown adult should consider a 5 lb, 10"x16" chunk of plastic either "big" or "heavy", and it shouldn't require "lugging".
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OK, hold your arm out for a half-hour. Your arm is only a few pounds, but it gets sore pretty quick.
If that doesn't convince you, talk to a soldier who carries a 5 lb. gun all day. You'll begin to hear a lot about how a little bit of weight makes a lot of difference.
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I'd like to suggest that you talk to a doctor. No grown adult should consider a 5 lb, 10"x16" chunk of plastic either "big" or "heavy", and it shouldn't require "lugging"
Clearly you don't do much traveling through airports or even from the rental car counter to the car park "lugging" bags and computers. Sure 5 lbs is no big deal when all you have to do is carry the PC from a car to the coffee bar by itself, but when you ADD 5 lbs to your load and then carry all that from gate to gate, or parking to terminal, or baggage pick-up to the taxi stand it can be a major backache.
More interested in the education than the net (Score:2)
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However, there will be little to no wifi for him to he hoping on.
why not just get a wifi router, they dont cost much these days.
Alternatively expose him to aircrack-ng (http://xkcd.com/416/ [xkcd.com])
However if its not really going to be used as an ultraportable, then why not stick a cheap desktop together as for about the price of an EEE you can build a low spec desktop than can be built upon at a later date, ( e.g if he moves on to compiled languages).
Re:More interested in the education than the net (Score:4, Informative)
If your goal is to get your brother interested in programming, don't make him use a tiny monitor and keyboard, get him a low-end desktop PC with a real keyboard and acceptable screen. If you're on a budget, you can pick up a used monitor for almost nothing and spend everything on the box.
The correct term... (Score:2)
MIGs? (Score:2)
Cool, I always wanted my own MIG [wikipedia.org]!
Blast from the past! Handheld PC - H/PC - Palmtop (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember the NEC Mobile Pro, or the HP Jornada? Practically the same formfactor, reborn.
Re:Blast from the past! Handheld PC - H/PC - Palmt (Score:3, Interesting)
I use a hx4700 right now and the only two issues stopping it from replacing my laptop for 90% of what I do are - 640x480 screens quit being useful about 12 years ago, and the on-screen touch keyboard at that re
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To the road-warrior business traveler, maybe.
The platform is still pretty useless to the application developer, the artist, the musician, t
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Do you know this from experience? Because I have done quite a bit of developing on Smartphone and Windows Mobile. And these weren't toy applications - they were fat client applications involving quite a bit of math, multithreading, multimedia (audio), network IO, and a fairly complicated UI. In addition, I was able to use the exact same source tree for both the desktop client and the mobile client, with just a smattering of ifdefs to cover ov
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Re:Blast from the past! Handheld PC - H/PC - Palmt (Score:2, Interesting)
Limit is in the I/O (Score:5, Insightful)
Now the limiting factor in usability of those devices seem to be not the processing power, but human interaction.
Both the keyboard and the screen are inevitably small, which makes typing and reading a challenge.
Some say that the future is in portable projectors and virtual keyboards, but that doesn't seem to be the ultimate solution - you need two flat surfaces and some headroom for those, which seems not to be the case for instance in an airplane.
I think challenges like efficient voice commands, or even brain waves (aka NIA) are the solution for input.
For the output again a direct interface to the nerves or to the eye, or else, there will still be need for full sized peripherals, so it won't matter how small can the computers themselves get.
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Voice commands are interesting. This does need an improvement in technology to really be viable still, but that probably will happen. Then we just need to have someone come up with a really good verbal UI. Yeah, it will
Pecard says: (Score:2)
"Computer. Tea. Earl Grey. Hot!"
Yeah, that will be a big hurdle to get over, but possible.
The other problem I can see that would need addressed is this:
Imagine going into a Starbuck's....packed with caffeinated yuppies yakking to their PC's--it would be overwhelming!
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That's why I always wanted one of these [pcworld.com]. It was lightweight like an EEE or whatever, but it had a 10" screen, reasonable keyboard, and was really thin (if it's not thinner than the MacBook Air, it was at least close). There's a lower limit to the length and width if you want good usability, but you can always make it thinner and lighter...
Aside from the slow processor and the fact that it wasn't a Tablet PC, it was almost perfect. I wish they'd bring it back with those deficiencies removed -- even at $1000
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I think challenges like efficient voice commands,
Unfortunatly if you try using voice commands in crowded areas/trains youll end up with plenty of spam.
even brain waves (aka NIA)
Unfortunatly i dont want to actually load up porn every 6 seconds, if the computer was reading my brainwaves i would never get any work done, check slashdot,XKCD,forums,pron o wait it doesnt even need to read my mind.
I think the trick is to cross bread them with phones, youll end up with something like the N810, but hopefully bigger so the keyboard is usable while loosing the requirement of a surface to u
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Both the keyboard and the screen are inevitably small, which makes typing and reading a challenge.
Reading isn't a problem with a 7" screen, since you basically have the same usable width as with a piece of A4/letter paper, in terms of height you of course have to scroll, but that isn't much of an issue. Much more important than size is DPI, but the OLPC has that area with its 200dpi pretty well covered. The only area where screensize can be an issue is if you have dozens of windows floating around, but as long as you maximize them or run in fullscreen you won't really have a problem.
The keyboard on the
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Also, lets just look at the
Meanwhile : Foldable keyboard (Score:4, Informative)
Even since my PalmIIIc period, I've been using foldable keyboard (by think outside and the like).
Note, I'm not speaking about the clamshell ones [cnetfrance.fr], nor the rollable ones [computeractive.co.uk].
I'm speaking about a box which has almost the same size as the Palm it self. It unfolds like an accordion in 4 parts. Once you've laid it flat, you slide the keys from the outer parts and you get a complete Desktop size ~90 keyboard (only lacks a keypad). This "sliding" locks the keyboard in open position, so you don't need a full flat place to used (compared to laser+infrared virtual keyboards) and you get actual tactile feed-back (not virtual keys. Real keys, which have the same size as those from your desktop).
Did all my note-taking at the university using such systems.
The best part is, now with the advent of common standard communication protocols like bluetooth, they produce one single model that fits for any bt-enabled PDA/smartphone/whatever (unlike back then, when they had to provide 1 model for every different proprietary connector that the market has come up with, and you had to rebuy a new one each time you changed your PDA).
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I think the point is not to make the gadgets smaller. In fact I think the eeePC goes to far already.
Just focus on making them lighter, more power efficient, easy to use without a mouse, cool running, and instant-on/off. That's where the effort should be placed.
Full laptop is better (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Full laptop is better (Score:5, Insightful)
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I disagree. Most users only need a laptop to play mp3s, chat, shop, and do light web stuff. The heavy stuff is why you have a first computer. If a contingency comes up where you need to create a multimedia presentation or write a thesis before you can get to your main box you can always borrow the local geek's portable gaming rig or use the desktop in the library or the back room. If you need massive screen real estate or processing power on a regular basis from your secondary computer, chances are you're
Re:Full laptop is better ... or is it? (Score:2)
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That's still a lot of people, and with sufficient market penetration used units will trickle down to other folks.
Is running Linux really a problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
Is this really a problem? I think that most of the people who don't know Linux aren't really aware of what Windows is either. They'll probably call any windowing system "Windows". As long as there are pictures to click on and it opens windows, it will be of little or no concern.
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I think that most of the people who don't know Linux aren't really aware of what Windows is either
You are right... but wrong. They may not know what Windows is, but they do know that they use it at work, their current computer, and they know that "windows is on everything" and "windows just works".
Yes they may not understand what an OS is, but they know Windows and they know where the start menu is and where hearts and solitare is. They also know that Windows is the old fogey next to the cool Mac guy.
However there are many computer friendly people that have no idea what Linux is. It could be a
Re:Is running Linux really a problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Just at a NSF conference and the keynote speaker tried to pull up a ppbx, not a ppt. It did not work.
I know there are converters for free. I know breaking compatibility helps drive sales. But sometimes, things don't open like you want and most people don't know (or care) why.
They have a converter for docx to doc, maybe oo can get it to work with wine so open office can automagically open everything? Or maybe it already has docx support?
http://www.oooninja.com/2008/02/office-compatibility-pack-review.htm [oooninja.com]
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I guess the answer has to be no... (Score:2)
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Nothing new here (in case you were wondering) (Score:2)
Why so expensive? (Score:2)
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Why are these machines so expensive?
Because price only scales up with features, not down.
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It currently costs only $130 to produce the XO and that's got a dual-resolution screen, an internal mesh-networking wireless access point, and a fantastic power system, as well as some storage, audio... I call shenanigans.
Re:Why so expensive? (Score:5, Informative)
In the case of these ultra-portables, a significant fraction of the cost also comes from the engineering and components required to make them so small and lightweight. You can of course get a clunky 200MHz laptop for real cheap (old model off eBay, for example), but it will not be as light or slick as the Eee PC or others.
The prices will probably keep dropping. But frankly I'm amazed at how cheap these ultra-portables already are: compare the performance, size, and price to what was available even 5 years ago and see how far we've come!
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Where's the evidence that the G1s actually shipped?
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Linux: Year of the... 'Netbook'? (Score:5, Interesting)
Should be interesting to see how this impacts the OS playing field...
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It seems like when you're dealing with price points of one to several hundred dollars, this is a big deal for free software, specifically Linux. When you're talking about adding anywhere from 25% to 100% of the cost of the computer just for the operating system, it paints things in a different light.
Which is why, if necessary, Microsoft will just have a specially-priced version of Windows just for the OEMs selling them.
That, and you'd have to put an older (soon to be non-supported) version of Windows (X
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Once people know about & are familiar with linux thats leaves us with:
Interoperability (this ones pretty much solved tbh)
Pre-installed OEMs (well dells got our back here)
Hardware support (getting better)
Coherent Interface (hmm i cant actually see this getting fixed)
Lack of proprietary software
To sort out.
OLPC Redux (Score:5, Insightful)
Lately Negroponte decided it should go with windows instead of the original open source OS, which prompted Bender to resign. And there is a general sense that they have sold out.
For a while it looked promising, I wanted to pick one up. Thought it would be great for camping. Get some PDF books and read it on the go in the open sunlight with a water resistant clam shell and a hand crank power supply. This seemed much better than a Kindle to me.
There was even a lot of DIY home brew hacks going on at first. People using it along with Arduino for some neat applications.
Alas... why must everyone sell out.
Re:OLPC Redux (Score:4, Insightful)
UMPCs (Score:5, Informative)
Re:UMPCs (Score:4, Insightful)
These netbooks are a hybrid of the laptop and UMPC concept -- keep shrinking the laptop until the point that the price would start going up, then cut back the processing power & memory until it is the minimum to run their target apps (web browser, email, productivity apps).
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Last year, UMPC units didn't sell a million units. That's why nobody is in any hurry to call their product a "UMPC." That, and its a stupid name that almost appears to be designed to prevent sales
Netbook? (Score:5, Funny)
A small laptop may be more powerful and allow you to install other applications without limitations, however if you don't always carry it with you it doesn't really matter.
If it can't fit in my pocket, I'm not carrying it around "just in case".
Re:Netbook? (Score:4, Insightful)
Low power is great, but I want a big screen (Score:3, Insightful)
My problem is that I want a full sized screen. Checking email and going through pdf's, doc's, and spreadsheets, I find I do a lot better with a big screen (or two) than even a normal laptop screen.
Do we think this is going to be taken care of by having docking stations all over the place, or will I need to wait for roll-out, flexible screens?
I don't understand this (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I don't understand this (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm constantly amazed at the difficulty some people have comprehending that not everyone wants exactly the machine they do.
Not just the laptop front (Score:3, Insightful)
Give me a portable Internet terminal (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm thinking a laptop with no HD, no CD, but a flash big enough to hold three copies of either DamnSmallLinux or ThinStation. Copy 1 would be read-only from the factory. Copy 3 would be the normal copy and would be a copy of copy 1 when the machine is first powered on. Copy 2 would be the "last known good" version, a copy of copy 3 made while booted to the BIOS setup screen.
I'm thinking maybe 256MB of flash and another 256-512MB of ordinary RAM.
The whole thing should be well under $300.
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So yah, MS is really getting their asses kicked on this one.
Re:Only one loser. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes.... for now. It should be obvious by now that OLPC insisted on an x86 compatible machine, even though it raised the cost and lowered battery life, because they realized doing a deal with Microsoft would eventually be a requirement for political reasons. Same with Asus and the eeepc, plus they were building it in a joint venture with Intel.
Yes, any $250+ machine will probably just wave the Linux flag as a bargining tool to get really good prices (and keep XP available, etc) on Windows.
But none of that is interesting longterm. I'm waiting for the less than $200 pricepoint to open up. Moore's Law says it will get here soon enough. Even better is when somebody builds one based on an ARM all in one solution that won't be able to run Windows regardless how much incentive or political pressure Microsoft brings to bear.
It should be obvious though that there exists a pricepoint that Microsoft can't compete at without risking canibalizing their existing monopoly. That market niche will be the wedge that will eventually lever em out of market dominance.
Re:XP Capable. (Score:5, Interesting)
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Eeew, that's gross.
Licensing fees fail as price drops to $200. (Score:3, Interesting)
IT fails M$. Today, you can buy a laptop for $300 that works great for what you want or the same thing for $400 that runs XP poorly. The choice is obvious and it's going to become more obvious when it's $200 vrs $300 and the performance and feature gap widens. M$ only dominates because they have preloads and subscription or begware replacements won't work. No one is going to buy a $200 computer that's coin operated or advert crippled when they can have the same thing without those problems. Face it, it's
Re:Licensing fees fail as price drops to $200. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: $300 Vista laptop. (Score:3, Interesting)
See twitter? No need to accuse people of stealing just
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Or which fence he bought it from.
Re:Licensing fees fail as price drops to $200. (Score:5, Informative)
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Damn right.
The I-Appliance BBS
http://www.linux-hacker.net/cgi-bin/UltraBoard/UltraBoard.pl [linux-hacker.net]
is full of interesting hacks on the leftover hardware from companies with "sell a crippled computer" business models. People want small fully capable computers, not broken shit that fits someone else's idea of what they should want.
Re:intel created this market (Score:4, Informative)
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Being cheaper
Running Java
Running Flash
Having a full keyboard to type comments
Re:I'll keep my iPhone. (Score:4, Informative)
And as for Flash, the removal of nuisance ads from the web pretty much makes up for the loss of being able to see the handful of visualization elements done in SWF.
I would like to have a BT profile to use a slim keyboard with the iPhone for writing while traveling. That would make a great combination that's much lighter than a typical laptop and more practical than the joke UMPC/tiny laptops that try to do everything by doing it all poorly.
TFA seemed to be an ad for Intel's Atom, which I'm not convinced will uproot the existing mobile dominance of ARM processors, particularly since the only real need for x86 compatible chips in mobile devices is to support Microsoft's inability to get Windows to run on other hardware.
Given that the most interesting and successful small devices are running Linux or Apple's OS X, the need for x86 processors in that space is not at all obvious. Why wait for Intel to catch up when literally hundreds of ARM licensees are now shipping 3 billion parts a year?
Also note that Intel lost something like $5 billion pouring money into the StrongARM business it got from DEC (and rebranded as XScale) before handing it to Marvell for a mere $600 M. If it couldn't beat TI in ARM processors, how can it expect to beat ARM with an inferior and more complicated processor design?
ARM, x86 Chip Makers Fight to Ride Mobile Growth [roughlydrafted.com]
Will Apple Rescue Intel's Silverthorne? [roughlydrafted.com]
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RPM -> Deb , no problems
A alpha/Beta is still a alpha/Beta a
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There is no incentive to standard notebook (any size) form-factors. The quicker a notebook is rendered obsolete by repair costs, the quicker a replacement can be sold. If it weren't for used "organ donors", consumer repair of notebooks wouldn't be practical. Since there was never a sta
Re:Standards...what the hell! (Score:4, Interesting)
I choose the best distro for the application:
OpenWRT for my APs - MIPS
Angstrom for my Zaurus - ARM
Debian for my desktops and laptop - Intel/AMD
DSL for my ancient laptop - Intel
Homebrew distro for a dev board I'm working on - ARM
And you know what? They all network, they all talk to each other, they all authenticate against the main server, and they all cooperate nicely. It's not about where some file is, or about the package manager, but about inter-operability. And they all run the same apps more-or-less in more-or-less the same way.
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