Anonymous Coward writes "Garth Freeman, CEO of Australia's first WiMax operator, sat down at the recent International WiMax Conference in Bangkok and unleashed a tirade about the failings of the technology, leaving an otherwise pro-WiMax audience stunned. His company, Buzz Broadband, had deployed a WiMax network over a year ago, and Freeman left no doubt about what conclusions he had drawn. He claimed that 'its non-line of sight performance was "non-existent" beyond just 2 kilometres from the base station, indoor performance decayed at just 400m and that latency rates reached as high as 1000 milliseconds. Poor latency and jitter made it unacceptable for many Internet applications and specifically VoIP, which Buzz has employed as the main selling point to induce people to shed their use of incumbent services.' We've previously discussed the beginnings of WiMax as well as recent plans for a massive network in India.
For some time now I've been taking part in WIMAX trials here in Hamilton Ontario. [community-media.com] This too was trumpeted as a glorious thing that would change the face of our city, bring us into the high tech 21st century etc.
In practice although WIMAX seems to work OK (aside from a real lag much of the time, which may just be bad server configuration by Primus Communications), My sense is that the company isn't really committed to it. I doubt that there will be a serious public roll out.
The idea seems great - a wireless Internet connection that works wherever you are. The reality seems a bit less rosy, and my guess is that a city wide wireless network will need a good level of customer support - not Primus' strong point by a long shot.
you should look into the Bell/Rogers WiMax service.. we're right at the fringe area of coverage(the antenna software claims we're linking up from about 11km away), and yet for the most part it's stable at it's 2mbit link speed.
The 10 gb a month bandwidth limits are horrible though.
If you have line of sight, everything is just fine. 30km is easily do-able. If you don't, then physics is just a bitch, my friends. At 3.5Ghz, you aren't going to get through much no matter what you do... the waves (or particles, depending on how you observe them) are going to be like bullets hitting water, the larger the calibre, the less far you can get the bullet with any real force. 700Mhz spectrum should be interesting. It has monstrous value and application - however the performance will be an issu
You found the problem and didn't even mention it really:
This too was trumpeted as a glorious thing that would change the face of our city
Never believe the hype. WiMax has a great deal of potential but it will never eliminate the common cold, nor compete with wired broadband for a mere pittance of what wired infrastructure costs. It does however have a niche market that is quite a bit bigger than what most people think. As point to point relay for a WiFi network it has some really good uses, just as microwave links are used between cellular sites in some areas.
If you use a Honda to haul gravel you too will be disappointed in the performance... perspective is everything and a damned good car analogy will explain anything
Myopic thinking. The value and the income from those access points will be a fraction of what can be carried over fibre. Namely voice, data, video, emergency services, business services like remote backup, et al.
But forget that, it's the least of your worries. Your real problem will be to make the access points and subscribers not all hear each other in the limited frequency available, drowning each other out, causing network brownouts (or blackouts), hurting efficiency, causing lag and re-registrations, etc. Go downtown Toronto and you'll see what I mean. It just doesn't work the way people want it to.
Here in Ontario, the municipalities sold a big chunk of the pole right-of-ways to the hydro companies. Best of luck getting co-operation from Hydro One. We should all be incensed, seeing as how the taxpayers built and paid for them.
>Not all WiMAX operators are unhappy. > >Internode says an Airspan-supplied network is providing consistent average speeds of 6Mbps at >distances up to 30km, with CEO Simon Hackett describing the platform as "proven."
So where exactly lies the problem? Implementation?
It is probably a combination of many different factors. A reporter should really dig in and learn more. Regardless, WiMAX can and does work. We have a network in Atlanta that sees less than 20ms latency, very little jitter and less than 1% packet loss. We carry real PRIs to demanding enterprises that work flawlessly. Unfortunately, our network is the result of blood, sweat and tears as opposed to some magic technology offered by ours vendors. This stuff is hard, but very doable. http://www.oneringnetworks.co [oneringnetworks.com]
I remember when a bunch of wireless guys got invited down to Intel for a private overview three or four years ago and we spent most of the couple hours trashing most of their basic assumptions about the technology. Their major response was, "well by the time it is deployed we will have figured it out"
WIMAX isn't going to be the success that it should be because I think it was driven more by marketing than technology.
I'm going to fiddle my fingers until they have a few more disasters till they get it working. In the meantime mesh will definitely deflate the momentum WIMAX needs right now.
The problem with a mesh network is that you have a serious chicken-and-egg problem. It's not going to do work well (or at all) until you get enough of your population using it, and you can't get enough of them to use it until it works well. Mesh networking will probably be piggybacked on the deployment some other wireless technology, and will be used to supplement it.
Not really. Small meshes are easier to get working than large ones, so the first step in deployment is to dangle meshes off the ends of existing infrastructure. You'll find a static access point in, for example, a coffee shop, and then use a small mesh to extend the range out into the street by relaying via devices in there. Once enough people are carrying mesh-capable devices, you'll be able to extend the range all the way to (for example) the access point in the library. At the point, any computer in the mesh can have some of its traffic routed via either connection. Once enough meshes are deployed and overlapping then the existing static links are just for bulk traffic or fallback use. The problem is that the complexity of mesh routing does not scale well. If you've solved the routing problem, you can deploy easily. Until then, meshes are limited to small-scale use.
Maybe someone can clear this up- does Clearwire use WiMax or not? Wikipedia didn't make it clear. My experience with them was that they didn't either have the infrastructure or the bandwidth to support their meager customer base. The thing worked just fine during the day when nobody really used it, but during busier hours you had significant lag and flow problems- however, the download rate was still good, but you can't play games with a ping of over a second.
by Anonymous Coward
on Sunday March 23 2008, @01:00PM (#22837488)
Lots of people seem to be confused about whether Clearwire is WiMax.
My Clearwire device has an FCC ID of PHX-RSU2510F. The FCC docs say that it operates on 2.496-2.690Ghz. The chipset leads me to believe that it is an implementation of the Motorola Expedience [nextnetwireless.com] Wireless Broadband CPE.
The Motorola RDM specs say that the device can operate in Expedience (up to 2W) or WiMax (up to 0.5W) modes. They also say that in Expedience mode it is a layer 2 smart bridge, while in WiMax mode it is a router with NAT, DHCP and firewall functions.
Since my device acts like a layer 2 bridge, I conclude that it is in Expedience mode. Having just checked the Wikipedia article, I see that the first paragraph agrees: "Clearwire currently uses Expedience wireless technology, dubbed Pre-WiMax, transmitted from cell sites over licensed spectrum of 2.5-2.6 GHz in the U.S. and 3.5 GHz in Europe."
So no, they use the WiMax frequency range, but they can transmit a stronger signal. That seems to be the main difference between the technologies.
This Motorola promotional video [motorola.com] talks about some of the infrastructure and business justifications for using their Expedience gear:
NLOS performance depends on a number of things, including how well the underlying technology can handle multipath and otherwise distorted signals. But the main thing is probably frequency; the higher the frequency, the worse the NLOS performance. WiMax is designed to run at many different frequencies, and the article fails to mention which one was in use.
The issues with latency and jitter, though, probably aren't as dependent on frequency.
The issues with latency and jitter, though, probably aren't as dependent on frequency.
Although I am no RF expert, it seems to me radio will never have significant latency or jitter, and the latency and jitter are just artifacts caused by the L2 protocol trying to compensate for poor radio performance (retransmissions at L2, bah). So if the RF worked well (indeed at lower frequencies for non-LOS) you wouldn't see these either, I think.
I am no RF expert either, but I have been on the receiving end of WiMax-ish technology, and the jitter was so bad, it was completely unusable for VoIP and even made ssh annoying at times.
This was kit designed to work for up to 10 km (6 miles) and I had line-of-sight to the base station, which was about 150m (500 ft) away.
Sky.. sky.. SkySomething. SkyPilot? Some kind of wierd meshy-network, I was also connected to the "master" tower, not a leaf.
The problem, as it was explained to me, was that it has a collision/backoff algorithm not unlike that of 10-base-2 ethernet ("thin net"). So, the 50 (or so) neighbours I had, plus the leaf towers (2 of them, I think) were causing me to not get "slots" with the master on a timely basis. Hence, introducing jitter.
So, your L2 protocol hypothesis is reasonable from my perspective, although we can eliminate poor radio performance as a direct cause. Changing the radio from broadcast to something like time or code division multiplexing would be a good solution for reducing jitter, but probably causes other problems (like decreased burst bandwidth and range).
My solution? "*sigh* - cancel the wireless link and order me a up a T1"
Wireless is nice because it's easy. But it sure ain't there yet.
In the '90s I could not drive from Oklahoma City to Dallas and keep cellphone service during the entire trip. If I was in an area not serviced by my cellphone provider, I had to "force" roaming by turning my Motorola flipphone off and on, then wait.
AT&T saw no future for data networks and the Internet!r
I chose as my ISP in Mexico City E-go [ego.net.mx], co-owned by Alestra [alestra.com.mx], the Mexican AT&T subsidiary. It started offering WiMax connection in 2003 in limited areas of Mexico City (I understand nowadays it covers most of the Central, Western and Southern parts), before even WiMax was standardized. Clients get a NextNet [nextnetwireless.com] RSU unit [nextnetwireless.com], which is basically a network bridge. The latency complaints you state are simply not true - I get consistent ping response times of 100ms in average (with minimum response times of around 50ms) to hosts in Mexico City, 200ms to hosts in the USA. Yes, this is about 80ms higher than wired equivalents - but it's not so much of a killer. What I do get, of course, is way higher packet loss - About 5% when things are optimal, and it sometimes gets up to 50%. But yes, I'm located at a relatively poor reception area, at one of the lower-income (this means, no incentive to place many antennas nearby) neighbourhoods in the South of the city, where the mostly flat valley where most of the city is located begins to become quite hilly. The RSU unit does not provide any means (for the client) for monitoring connection, to help choose the best possible location. It only has five LEDs (and no, they are not blue, just an unfashionable old green. Bummer.) indicating signal strength, and I always get one or two of them. I have seen signal quality significantly better when at a five-leds connection. Prices and speed are more or less in-par with Mexico's near-monopoly TelMex; I'm paying about US$40 for a nominal 1Mbps/128Kbps connection (512K guaranteed, whatever that means). The upstream data flow _is_ shaped to 128k, but the downstream speed is not - when the network smiles on me, I get up to 2Mbps. It is not common, though. I understand E-go (back then called I-go, don't ask me why) was praised as the world-first massive WiMax deployment - Even before the standard was finalized. There are several aspects of the installed network that show clearly the gear is pre-standard (i.e. extreme sensibility to position changes - If I move my RSU over two centimeters, it has to resynchronize with the antenna. This process takes around two seconds, so no big deal). To me, clearly, the reason it hasn't got more popular is because it is owned by a relatively small company, and has not had the muscle to stand in front of Telmex's publicity machine. Of course, we benefit more than DSL users from having a low client density:) E-go owns 20MHz of spectrum, which allows it to give a theoretical maximum of 70Mbps to a given area. If many too people were to subscribe, each client would have much less effectibe bandwidth alloted.
There's nothing magical about WiMax. Other frequency ranges, other protocols, that's about it.
The only interesting thing about it is that it's not operated by traditional telcos.
But remember, what traditional telcos sell is not telecom, they're SELLING UBIQUITOUS telecom.
An untraditional telco would have to sell at a nonzero price ubiquitous. If they sell at zero price (or truly flat rate), a smartass will monopolize all access and resell it at real market price (what people are truly willing to pay). If the service is only sporadically available, no one will want to pay for it, or they would be better off setting up a fix line connection at the only place it works. If they comply to the two conditions, they are definitely traditional telcos.
In the long run, WiMax is bad for the consumer. As I explained above, the business model behind WiMax can only be the "traditional telco model". But now we have two technologies with incompatible end user hardware, incompatible operator hardware. Nokia and Alcatel Lucent will sell less copies of their products to operators, thus the price will rise. Nokia and Alcatel Lucent will ask for higher fees from the opco, guess who will pay the bill. Nokia and Motorola will sell less copies of their products to end users, guess who will pay for the relatively higher cost.
Furthermore, with WiMax vs 3G, there are now not one, but two markets for mobile data and voice. Barrier to jump from one to the other market is nonzero for the consumers. Each of the individual markets is also smaller, hence less competitive.
He claimed... latency rates reached as high as 1000 milliseconds. Poor latency and jitter made it unacceptable for many Internet applications and specifically VoIP, which Buzz has employed as the main selling point to induce people to shed their use of incumbent
Sounds like they didn't configure it right, on one or both of two issues.
First: WiMAX has a frame rate that is an exact multiple of the 8000 frames/second rate of the telephone networks' digital carriers (and A/D converters). While this was obviously intended to allow it to carry telephone TDM signals and their associated timing (which normally isn't an issue for IP transport), WiMAX has its own, unrelated, timing issues that mandate the base stations be synchronized - to each other and preferably to a telephony network clock or a GPS-derived clock.
The base stations assign timeslots to each remote. They measure the propagation characteristics and (depending on the sort of base station) may adjust signal strengths, modulation rates, and/or antenna aim for the associated timeslot to obtain good communication, and may pick a timeslot that is currently "quiet" on the antenna / antenna-aim appropriate for the remote in question.
The problem is that multiple subscriber stations between two base stations (perhaps not adjacent ones) that are reusing a channel may both be "audible" to both base stations - perhaps due to using non-directinal antennas, perhaps due to reflections. If the base stations assign overlapping timeslots to their peered subscriber stations they will interfere. So the base stations try to assign their subscriber stations "quiet" slots - i.e. slots that don't already have interference from another nearby base station's remotes.
Now that's just fine if the base stations' clocks are synchronized. The timeslots hold a constant relationship to each other and a quiet slot stays quiet. But if the base stations are not synchronized their relative framing drifts. So one base station's subscriber's slot may drift into that of another base station's subscriber, resulting in a drop of the link quality. Then the base stations readjust the configuration - perhaps moving the subscriber stations to new slots. But these do the same thing. Over and over. Result: Links keep flaking out and control traffic is massive.
With the base stations synchronized and the subscriber stations carrying VoIP or other fixed-rate stream traffic, the stations will tend to hold on to quiet slots that march along with the stratum-III timing regularity of telephone carriers.
The second Quality of Service issue is packet priority. The routers at both the subscriber and base stations should be identifying the VoIP (or other fixed-bandwidth streaming) flow and giving its packets priority over other traffic on the link. That way the (limited and constant bandwidth) voice packets can take the preallocated slots every time while any additional variable traffic waits for the necessary additional slot allocation. If this is not done, other traffic (such as file transfers and web browsing) will keep "stealing" the time slots out from under the time-critical VoIP / streaming packets, resulting in long and variable latencies - horrendous jitter. If it IS done (and the link is stable due to the base-station timing synchronization), the VoIP flows will have jitter characteristics virtually identical to those of telephony TDM networks.
(This, by the way, is why "network neutrality" can't be reduced to "treat all packets the same" if you want to share the same IP network between streaming services such as video and VoIP and best-effort services such as file transfers and browsing.)
Maybe because hundreds of millions of people listen to AM radio every day -- and those of us driving 1991 cars can't just switch to digital radio (too expensive). The world doesn't have to conform to your personal priorities.
Maybe because hundreds of millions of people listen to AM radio every day -- and those of us driving 1991 cars can't just switch to digital radio (too expensive). The world doesn't have to conform to your personal priorities.
If it's not the broad spectrum de-regulators, it will the digital spectrum land grab speculators. I was talking to a friend who is a broadcast TV engineer and some European countries have switched analogue TV off entirely. Some number of people with 1991 TV sets just couldn't switch to digital or if they could afford it, couldn't grok the new user interface. A significant percentage of elderly folk just said "fsck it" and gave up on TV entirely.
Over here in Australia, our FM band is being switched off to make space for digital allocations. The "big picture" will be far more important than individual circumstance. Presumably sets will drop in price as the user base grows.
The open spectrum people are the least of your problems, the digital spectrum people have a lot more cash and backing to take over your AM spectrum.
The world doesn't have to conform to your personal priorities.
I hope someone mods you funny instead of informative, but it's really hilarious when Slashdotters scream about the Constitution when child porn vendors or suicide bombers get caught online, but when it comes to silencing people who have a different political viewpoint than you do then any means including violence is perfectly OK.
I find it annoying when people try to point out the hypocrisy of "Slashdotters" without citing individual people who are hypocritical that way. We are individuals, and despite the apparent groupthink, we can actually disagree. I don't agree with you that all Slashdotters are the same, and I don't agree with GP that fundie talk shows should actually be censored. Oh, and I don't agree with pretty much anything fundie talk shows have to say, but I will defend to my death their right to say it.
But nuance (sanity?) like that is completely lost when you lump us all in a group like that. Good job.
I don't agree with pretty much anything fundie talk shows have to say, but I will defend to my death their right to say it.
I used to buy into that as well, but its wrong. Should people be given carte blanche to lie, just because it's about their favourite superstitious belief?
People in the past have said (and continue to say) stupid things - would you really "defend to my death their right to say it"?:
The jews deserved the holocaust
A well-hung nigger is the one hanging from the nearest tree
That's just a ridiculous weasely exaggeration and misrepresentation to try to prove a point and when you have to do that it generally means that whatever you are trying to say doesn't stand up on it's own. I have never once heard anyone on/. defending child porn or suicide bombers in relation to the constitution; the point I have heard often is that the constitution is being destroyed, people are being manipulated or forced into giving up their rights - rights which are inherent in being human, not GIVEN by
A viewpoint cannot physically do anything, it is abstract, not concrete, only people can physically act upon the viewpoints. It is these actions then, which if illegal, should be outlawed, not the viewpoints behind the actions. You cannot legally in America forcefully silence a person because you disagree with their views. Lyle Stuart once said,
"No one needs a First Amendment to write about how cute newborn babies are or to publish a recipe for strawberry shortcake. Nobody needs a First Amendment for
If getting rid of the AM band gets rid of all those fundie talk shows, I say nuke it NOW! From orbit! With sharks with frigging lazers stapped to their heads!
I wish it were that simple. The problem is they are like cockroaches, when you try to kill them they just come back stronger. They thrive on persecution.
Add to that the fact that AM radio is robust, understood and ubiquitous technology. The shit could it the fan tomorrow. Major economic collapse, dying infrastructure or whatever. AM radio would still be around and working. There is something to be said for a civilization having enough depth and legacy in its technology that there become no single point of failure.
Funny that. In my part of Europe (The Netherlands and now Sweden) AM was, and to a certain level still is alive and kicking. Advantages of AM over FM are the longer range and lower power requirements. Now that I live in Sweden I sometimes listen to Dutch radio. Not on FM of course as that does not reach much further than the horizon. AM all the way... literally, from The Netherlands to Sweden, some 1300 km.
it's not like we have a comparable neighbour a few klicks to the west. Tell me, is San Fran further from or closer to Boston than Moscow is to Vladivostok?
A few klicks to the west?
Boston to SF is 4,344 km.
St Petersburg to Vladivostok is 9,288 km by rail. Eight time zones.
But how many middle or western Europeans are accustomed to thinking of distances on either scale?
You don't even need that. One diode and some high impedance headphones is all you need. You don't even need any kind of power. There is no amplification, but I dare you to find one other broadcast technology that can draw all the power it needs from the signal its self.
Even if we switch off of AM and FM and such to fancy digital encodings, every radio should have the ability to tune into old-fashioned AM signals built in. It's trivial to add, and functions no matter what if they need to put stations up in an emergency.
Even if we switch off of AM and FM and such to fancy digital encodings, every radio should have the ability to tune into old-fashioned AM signals built in
No, because medium wave is just too bulky. You can get small, cheap FM only radios for this reason.
And yeah, I grew up making crystal radios and small powered radios when I was eight or nine. Its hard to buy the nice open tuning gangs now. The old ways are going.
You can listen to solar powered broadcasts on crank powered radios.
Or you could listen to crank/solar-powered broadcasts on a radio with no external power source at all [wikipedia.org] except the radio waves it receives.
AM radio spans roughly 1 MHz (IE: approx 530KHz to 1.6 MHz.) You CANNOT fit a broadband wireless service into that space... furthermore, the resonant antenna length for 1/4 wave varies between (approx) 150 metres to 40 metres. Like to see you stick that out of the back of your Laptop.
doubtful if you could effectively get one 54mbit channel in that space, plus, because it is NOT line of sight, someone a few miles away WILL interfere with your local transmissions.
Low frequencies (below about 2 MHz) hug the ground, this means AM does not have line of sight issues. Some AM broadcast stations have service areas of hundreds of miles (kilometers) (radius)
FM is 88.. 108 MHz. 1/4 wave here is roughly around 1 metre. Still a thumping huge antenna! These frequencies are considered line of sight, however, there is a small area extending beyond line of sight. Enough bandwidth for a few 54mbit channels.
WiFi is generally at 2.4 GHz. Same band as Microwave ovens use. Has to do with the frequency of maximum absorbance of water. (Thus used in ovens!)
1/w wavelength approx 4 cm... okay for Laptop, (easy)
To get sufficient bandwidth, only UHF and up is really useful. But, get too high in the microwave band and the signal wont even get through a thin wall.
So, there are trade offs that genuinely make sense for wireless broadband.
(lots more reasons as well...)
Minor nitpick: 2.4 GHz is not the frequency of maximum aborbance of water. The frequency of the maximum is temperature dependent, and the absorbance peak is very broad. Thus there is no need to use any special frequency. 2.4 GHz is used in microwave ovens due to that it was free to use, being an ISM band, and that the penetration depth is useful for cooking.
I think part of the argument is legitimate, in that we're stuck in the unlicensed bands, where there is significant opportunities for interference both within those bands and from licensed bands sitting on the borders at each side.
2.4ghz and 5.6ghz/5.8ghz are good bands for line of sight transmission. Unfortunately, these frequencies are increasingly noisy and all of the fancy algorithms in the world can't help you when some of son-of-bitch with a home-made outfit is spewing out at obscene power levels.
As to non-line-of-sight, well, the higher bands just don't do so well. It's one thing to have a wood-framed house with drywall, which doesn't offer much of an obstacle, but apartment buildings and the like, where there's significant amounts of steel and concrete aren't going to cut it too well, at least without tons of access points all over the place (translation: $$$). The 900mhz band is pretty good at non-line-of-sight, but this section of the spectrum has been utterly poisoned by cordless phones (2.4ghz is getting that bad too).
What WiFi needs is some protected chunks of spectrum at the low, middle and high. Without that, forget about it. Maybe this latest auction will open some stuff up, but I doubt it.
I think part of the argument is legitimate, in that we're stuck in the unlicensed bands, where there is significant opportunities for interference both within those bands and from licensed bands sitting on the borders at each side.
This is WiMax, not Wi-fi. Despite the first two letters, and the fact they're both 802.x standards, these are completely unrelated technologies, which for some reason geeks in particular tend to get overly excited and confused about conflating the features of one with the other. WiMax is generally run on licensed spectrum, and is about as useful as Wi-fi on unlicensed spectrum, if you can even get certified equipment. So far as I'm aware there are no commercial operators trying to run it on unlicensed spectrum: there's no point, Wifi is cheaper and just as effective for non-LoS use.
2.4ghz and 5.6ghz/5.8ghz are good bands for line of sight transmission. Unfortunately, these frequencies are increasingly noisy and all of the fancy algorithms in the world can't help you when some of son-of-bitch with a home-made outfit is spewing out at obscene power levels.
Again, you're assuming WiMax is generally run on unlicensed frequencies. But your point is worth addressing because the bands WiMax is generally licensed in to tend to be greater than 2GHz, though it is being considered by a number of operators for use on the 700MHz spectrum recently auctioned.
Anyway: 2-3GHz has roughly the same characteristics as PCS, the 1900MHz spectrum used by Sprint PCS and T-Mobile USA, and it's in this area that WiMax is usually offered - though I have heard of it being deployed in the 3.5GHz range. It's generally pretty strong outside, while indoor coverage generally deteriorates relatively quickly, though not to the point of unusability.
WiMax is an interesting technology but it suffers from being "first" and from being designed by the computer industry with almost no input from the telecoms industry. The latter may be a bunch of Luddites but they do put a premium on reliability, something our industry is absolutely abysmal at. Which is partially why I'm betting on LTE being the path forward to universal internet connectivity.
Real life experience with WIMAX (Score:4, Informative)
In practice although WIMAX seems to work OK (aside from a real lag much of the time, which may just be bad server configuration by Primus Communications), My sense is that the company isn't really committed to it. I doubt that there will be a serious public roll out.
The idea seems great - a wireless Internet connection that works wherever you are. The reality seems a bit less rosy, and my guess is that a city wide wireless network will need a good level of customer support - not Primus' strong point by a long shot.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The 10 gb a month bandwidth limits are horrible though.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
700Mhz spectrum should be interesting. It has monstrous value and application - however the performance will be an issu
Re:Real life experience with WIMAX (Score:4, Funny)
If you use a Honda to haul gravel you too will be disappointed in the performance... perspective is everything and a damned good car analogy will explain anything
Parent
Re:Real life experience with WIMAX (Score:4, Insightful)
and the cost of building and maintaining 10,000 access points will be what. exactly?
Parent
Re:Real life experience with WIMAX (Score:5, Insightful)
Less than the cost of laying fiber to millions of homes.
Parent
Re:Real life experience with WIMAX (Score:5, Insightful)
But forget that, it's the least of your worries. Your real problem will be to make the access points and subscribers not all hear each other in the limited frequency available, drowning each other out, causing network brownouts (or blackouts), hurting efficiency, causing lag and re-registrations, etc. Go downtown Toronto and you'll see what I mean. It just doesn't work the way people want it to.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Who's fault? (Score:4, Interesting)
>
>Internode says an Airspan-supplied network is providing consistent average speeds of 6Mbps at >distances up to 30km, with CEO Simon Hackett describing the platform as "proven."
So where exactly lies the problem? Implementation?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
http://www.oneringnetworks.co [oneringnetworks.com]
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
internodes wireless offerings are not as wonderful as he is painting them.
complaining about it for years (Score:4, Interesting)
WIMAX isn't going to be the success that it should be because I think it was driven more by marketing than technology.
I'm going to fiddle my fingers until they have a few more disasters till they get it working. In the meantime mesh will definitely deflate the momentum WIMAX needs right now.
Re:complaining about it for years (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:complaining about it for years (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Clearwire (Score:3, Interesting)
To me, WiMax is the future version of 56k.
Re:Clearwire (Score:4, Informative)
My Clearwire device has an FCC ID of PHX-RSU2510F. The FCC docs say that it operates on 2.496-2.690Ghz. The chipset leads me to believe that it is an implementation of the Motorola Expedience [nextnetwireless.com] Wireless Broadband CPE.
The Motorola RDM specs say that the device can operate in Expedience (up to 2W) or WiMax (up to 0.5W) modes. They also say that in Expedience mode it is a layer 2 smart bridge, while in WiMax mode it is a router with NAT, DHCP and firewall functions.
Since my device acts like a layer 2 bridge, I conclude that it is in Expedience mode. Having just checked the Wikipedia article, I see that the first paragraph agrees:
"Clearwire currently uses Expedience wireless technology, dubbed Pre-WiMax, transmitted from cell sites over licensed spectrum of 2.5-2.6 GHz in the U.S. and 3.5 GHz in Europe."
So no, they use the WiMax frequency range, but they can transmit a stronger signal. That seems to be the main difference between the technologies.
This Motorola promotional video [motorola.com] talks about some of the infrastructure and business justifications for using their Expedience gear:
Parent
Frequency, not just technology (Score:4, Informative)
The issues with latency and jitter, though, probably aren't as dependent on frequency.
Re: (Score:2)
Although I am no RF expert, it seems to me radio will never have significant latency or jitter, and the latency and jitter are just artifacts caused by the L2 protocol trying to compensate for poor radio performance (retransmissions at L2, bah). So if the RF worked well (indeed at lower frequencies for non-LOS) you wouldn't see these either, I think.
Re:Frequency, not just technology (Score:5, Informative)
This was kit designed to work for up to 10 km (6 miles) and I had line-of-sight to the base station, which was about 150m (500 ft) away.
Sky.. sky.. SkySomething. SkyPilot? Some kind of wierd meshy-network, I was also connected to the "master" tower, not a leaf.
The problem, as it was explained to me, was that it has a collision/backoff algorithm not unlike that of 10-base-2 ethernet ("thin net"). So, the 50 (or so) neighbours I had, plus the leaf towers (2 of them, I think) were causing me to not get "slots" with the master on a timely basis. Hence, introducing jitter.
So, your L2 protocol hypothesis is reasonable from my perspective, although we can eliminate poor radio performance as a direct cause. Changing the radio from broadcast to something like time or code division multiplexing would be a good solution for reducing jitter, but probably causes other problems (like decreased burst bandwidth and range).
My solution? "*sigh* - cancel the wireless link and order me a up a T1"
Wireless is nice because it's easy. But it sure ain't there yet.
Parent
Meanwhile, back at the Ranch (USA) (Score:2, Insightful)
ISPs losing interest in citywide wireless coverage.
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/03/23/1213255/ [slashdot.org]
Is patience in order?
In the '90s I could not drive from Oklahoma City to Dallas and keep cellphone service during the entire trip. If I was in an area not serviced by my cellphone provider, I had to "force" roaming by turning my Motorola flipphone off and on, then wait.
AT&T saw no future for data networks and the Internet!r
My real-life experience with WiMax (Mexico City) (Score:5, Informative)
The latency complaints you state are simply not true - I get consistent ping response times of 100ms in average (with minimum response times of around 50ms) to hosts in Mexico City, 200ms to hosts in the USA. Yes, this is about 80ms higher than wired equivalents - but it's not so much of a killer. What I do get, of course, is way higher packet loss - About 5% when things are optimal, and it sometimes gets up to 50%. But yes, I'm located at a relatively poor reception area, at one of the lower-income (this means, no incentive to place many antennas nearby) neighbourhoods in the South of the city, where the mostly flat valley where most of the city is located begins to become quite hilly. The RSU unit does not provide any means (for the client) for monitoring connection, to help choose the best possible location. It only has five LEDs (and no, they are not blue, just an unfashionable old green. Bummer.) indicating signal strength, and I always get one or two of them. I have seen signal quality significantly better when at a five-leds connection.
Prices and speed are more or less in-par with Mexico's near-monopoly TelMex; I'm paying about US$40 for a nominal 1Mbps/128Kbps connection (512K guaranteed, whatever that means). The upstream data flow _is_ shaped to 128k, but the downstream speed is not - when the network smiles on me, I get up to 2Mbps. It is not common, though.
I understand E-go (back then called I-go, don't ask me why) was praised as the world-first massive WiMax deployment - Even before the standard was finalized. There are several aspects of the installed network that show clearly the gear is pre-standard (i.e. extreme sensibility to position changes - If I move my RSU over two centimeters, it has to resynchronize with the antenna. This process takes around two seconds, so no big deal).
To me, clearly, the reason it hasn't got more popular is because it is owned by a relatively small company, and has not had the muscle to stand in front of Telmex's publicity machine.
Of course, we benefit more than DSL users from having a low client density
Nothing just magical about WiMax (Score:5, Interesting)
The only interesting thing about it is that it's not operated by traditional telcos.
But remember, what traditional telcos sell is not telecom, they're SELLING UBIQUITOUS telecom.
An untraditional telco would have to sell at a nonzero price ubiquitous. If they sell at zero price (or truly flat rate), a smartass will monopolize all access and resell it at real market price (what people are truly willing to pay). If the service is only sporadically available, no one will want to pay for it, or they would be better off setting up a fix line connection at the only place it works. If they comply to the two conditions, they are definitely traditional telcos.
In the long run, WiMax is bad for the consumer. As I explained above, the business model behind WiMax can only be the "traditional telco model". But now we have two technologies with incompatible end user hardware, incompatible operator hardware. Nokia and Alcatel Lucent will sell less copies of their products to operators, thus the price will rise. Nokia and Alcatel Lucent will ask for higher fees from the opco, guess who will pay the bill. Nokia and Motorola will sell less copies of their products to end users, guess who will pay for the relatively higher cost.
Furthermore, with WiMax vs 3G, there are now not one, but two markets for mobile data and voice. Barrier to jump from one to the other market is nonzero for the consumers. Each of the individual markets is also smaller, hence less competitive.
Fuck WiMax
Sounds like they didn't configure correctly. (Score:3, Informative)
Sounds like they didn't configure it right, on one or both of two issues.
First: WiMAX has a frame rate that is an exact multiple of the 8000 frames/second rate of the telephone networks' digital carriers (and A/D converters). While this was obviously intended to allow it to carry telephone TDM signals and their associated timing (which normally isn't an issue for IP transport), WiMAX has its own, unrelated, timing issues that mandate the base stations be synchronized - to each other and preferably to a telephony network clock or a GPS-derived clock.
The base stations assign timeslots to each remote. They measure the propagation characteristics and (depending on the sort of base station) may adjust signal strengths, modulation rates, and/or antenna aim for the associated timeslot to obtain good communication, and may pick a timeslot that is currently "quiet" on the antenna / antenna-aim appropriate for the remote in question.
The problem is that multiple subscriber stations between two base stations (perhaps not adjacent ones) that are reusing a channel may both be "audible" to both base stations - perhaps due to using non-directinal antennas, perhaps due to reflections. If the base stations assign overlapping timeslots to their peered subscriber stations they will interfere. So the base stations try to assign their subscriber stations "quiet" slots - i.e. slots that don't already have interference from another nearby base station's remotes.
Now that's just fine if the base stations' clocks are synchronized. The timeslots hold a constant relationship to each other and a quiet slot stays quiet. But if the base stations are not synchronized their relative framing drifts. So one base station's subscriber's slot may drift into that of another base station's subscriber, resulting in a drop of the link quality. Then the base stations readjust the configuration - perhaps moving the subscriber stations to new slots. But these do the same thing. Over and over. Result: Links keep flaking out and control traffic is massive.
With the base stations synchronized and the subscriber stations carrying VoIP or other fixed-rate stream traffic, the stations will tend to hold on to quiet slots that march along with the stratum-III timing regularity of telephone carriers.
The second Quality of Service issue is packet priority. The routers at both the subscriber and base stations should be identifying the VoIP (or other fixed-bandwidth streaming) flow and giving its packets priority over other traffic on the link. That way the (limited and constant bandwidth) voice packets can take the preallocated slots every time while any additional variable traffic waits for the necessary additional slot allocation. If this is not done, other traffic (such as file transfers and web browsing) will keep "stealing" the time slots out from under the time-critical VoIP / streaming packets, resulting in long and variable latencies - horrendous jitter. If it IS done (and the link is stable due to the base-station timing synchronization), the VoIP flows will have jitter characteristics virtually identical to those of telephony TDM networks.
(This, by the way, is why "network neutrality" can't be reduced to "treat all packets the same" if you want to share the same IP network between streaming services such as video and VoIP and best-effort services such as file transfers and browsing.)
All of AM? (Score:3, Insightful)
I can just hear it now: RUSH: "It's a Liberal conspiracy to get rid of us who tell the TRUTH!"
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Someone WILL steal your spectrum (Score:4, Interesting)
If it's not the broad spectrum de-regulators, it will the digital spectrum land grab speculators. I was talking to a friend who is a broadcast TV engineer and some European countries have switched analogue TV off entirely. Some number of people with 1991 TV sets just couldn't switch to digital or if they could afford it, couldn't grok the new user interface. A significant percentage of elderly folk just said "fsck it" and gave up on TV entirely.
Over here in Australia, our FM band is being switched off to make space for digital allocations. The "big picture" will be far more important than individual circumstance. Presumably sets will drop in price as the user base grows.
The open spectrum people are the least of your problems, the digital spectrum people have a lot more cash and backing to take over your AM spectrum.
Too true. But maybe not in the way you expect...
Xix.
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Re:The real dissaster is spectrum regulation. (Score:5, Funny)
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The real dissaster is spectrum regulation. (Score:4, Insightful)
I find it annoying when people try to point out the hypocrisy of "Slashdotters" without citing individual people who are hypocritical that way. We are individuals, and despite the apparent groupthink, we can actually disagree. I don't agree with you that all Slashdotters are the same, and I don't agree with GP that fundie talk shows should actually be censored. Oh, and I don't agree with pretty much anything fundie talk shows have to say, but I will defend to my death their right to say it.
But nuance (sanity?) like that is completely lost when you lump us all in a group like that. Good job.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I used to buy into that as well, but its wrong. Should people be given carte blanche to lie, just because it's about their favourite superstitious belief?
People in the past have said (and continue to say) stupid things - would you really "defend to my death their right to say it"?:
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I have never once heard anyone on
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"No one needs a First Amendment to write about how cute newborn babies are or to publish a recipe for strawberry shortcake. Nobody needs a First Amendment for
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Re:The real dissaster is spectrum regulation. (Score:5, Insightful)
Stations of relatively modest power can provide services to distances of about 100 miles.
Receivers are cheap, portable and ubiquitous.
The AM radio is as accessible and familiar to the four year old as it is to the centenarian.
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Re:The real dissaster is spectrum regulation. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:The real dissaster is spectrum regulation. (Score:5, Informative)
Medium-Wave broadcasting in the U.S. evolved when the country was still significantly rural.
Distances in the U.S. can defeat the European imagination.
The 50,000 watt "clear channel" station could be heard across several states - and to istances of 1,000 miles under favorable conditions.
AM radio had a distinct local or regional identity which persists to this day.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
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A few klicks to the west?
Boston to SF is 4,344 km.
St Petersburg to Vladivostok is 9,288 km by rail. Eight time zones.
But how many middle or western Europeans are accustomed to thinking of distances on either scale?
Re:The real dissaster is spectrum regulation. (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:The real dissaster is spectrum regulation. (Score:5, Insightful)
AM radio is a really durable technology. You can listen to solar powered broadcasts on crank powered radios.
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Re:The real dissaster is spectrum regulation. (Score:5, Interesting)
You don't even need that. One diode and some high impedance headphones is all you need. You don't even need any kind of power. There is no amplification, but I dare you to find one other broadcast technology that can draw all the power it needs from the signal its self.
Even if we switch off of AM and FM and such to fancy digital encodings, every radio should have the ability to tune into old-fashioned AM signals built in. It's trivial to add, and functions no matter what if they need to put stations up in an emergency.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
No, because medium wave is just too bulky. You can get small, cheap FM only radios for this reason.
And yeah, I grew up making crystal radios and small powered radios when I was eight or nine. Its hard to buy the nice open tuning gangs now. The old ways are going.
Re: (Score:2)
Or you could listen to crank/solar-powered broadcasts on a radio with no external power source at all [wikipedia.org] except the radio waves it receives.
Re:AM Radio = Range (Score:5, Informative)
doubtful if you could effectively get one 54mbit channel in that space, plus, because it is NOT line of sight, someone a few miles away WILL interfere with your local transmissions.
Low frequencies (below about 2 MHz) hug the ground, this means AM does not have line of sight issues. Some AM broadcast stations have service areas of hundreds of miles (kilometers) (radius)
FM is 88.. 108 MHz. 1/4 wave here is roughly around 1 metre. Still a thumping huge antenna! These frequencies are considered line of sight, however, there is a small area extending beyond line of sight. Enough bandwidth for a few 54mbit channels.
WiFi is generally at 2.4 GHz. Same band as Microwave ovens use. Has to do with the frequency of maximum absorbance of water. (Thus used in ovens!) 1/w wavelength approx 4 cm
To get sufficient bandwidth, only UHF and up is really useful. But, get too high in the microwave band and the signal wont even get through a thin wall.
So, there are trade offs that genuinely make sense for wireless broadband. (lots more reasons as well
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Re:AM Radio = Range (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:The real dissaster is spectrum regulation. (Score:5, Interesting)
2.4ghz and 5.6ghz/5.8ghz are good bands for line of sight transmission. Unfortunately, these frequencies are increasingly noisy and all of the fancy algorithms in the world can't help you when some of son-of-bitch with a home-made outfit is spewing out at obscene power levels.
As to non-line-of-sight, well, the higher bands just don't do so well. It's one thing to have a wood-framed house with drywall, which doesn't offer much of an obstacle, but apartment buildings and the like, where there's significant amounts of steel and concrete aren't going to cut it too well, at least without tons of access points all over the place (translation: $$$). The 900mhz band is pretty good at non-line-of-sight, but this section of the spectrum has been utterly poisoned by cordless phones (2.4ghz is getting that bad too).
What WiFi needs is some protected chunks of spectrum at the low, middle and high. Without that, forget about it. Maybe this latest auction will open some stuff up, but I doubt it.
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Re:The real dissaster is spectrum regulation. (Score:5, Informative)
This is WiMax, not Wi-fi. Despite the first two letters, and the fact they're both 802.x standards, these are completely unrelated technologies, which for some reason geeks in particular tend to get overly excited and confused about conflating the features of one with the other. WiMax is generally run on licensed spectrum, and is about as useful as Wi-fi on unlicensed spectrum, if you can even get certified equipment. So far as I'm aware there are no commercial operators trying to run it on unlicensed spectrum: there's no point, Wifi is cheaper and just as effective for non-LoS use.
Again, you're assuming WiMax is generally run on unlicensed frequencies. But your point is worth addressing because the bands WiMax is generally licensed in to tend to be greater than 2GHz, though it is being considered by a number of operators for use on the 700MHz spectrum recently auctioned.
Anyway: 2-3GHz has roughly the same characteristics as PCS, the 1900MHz spectrum used by Sprint PCS and T-Mobile USA, and it's in this area that WiMax is usually offered - though I have heard of it being deployed in the 3.5GHz range. It's generally pretty strong outside, while indoor coverage generally deteriorates relatively quickly, though not to the point of unusability.
WiMax is an interesting technology but it suffers from being "first" and from being designed by the computer industry with almost no input from the telecoms industry. The latter may be a bunch of Luddites but they do put a premium on reliability, something our industry is absolutely abysmal at. Which is partially why I'm betting on LTE being the path forward to universal internet connectivity.
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Re: (Score:2)
You mean this [netxtechnology.com]? What does a business that specializes in "tuning your computer" have to do with WiMax?