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Comments: 324 +- Hardware: How Small a PC Is Too Small? on Monday March 26 2007, @12:15AM
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kdawson
on Monday March 26 2007, @12:15AM
from the elven-fingers dept.
from the elven-fingers dept.
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Banner~! recommends an article in IBTimes on the search for the ideal size for an ultraportable computer. One device mentioned is Paul Allen's FlipStart, discussed here recently. After watching early users fumble and nearly drop an early version of the FlipStart while trying to perform a three-finger salute, designers ended up including a single key labeled "CtrlAltDel" in the version that will be shipping soon. From the article: "Each device maker... has a different sense of how small an ultra-mobile can get before it becomes impossible to use. For instance, Microsoft thinks the tiniest screen possible measures 7 inches diagonally, but FlipStart Labs settled on 5.6 inches."
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Hardware: FlipStart to Replace Your Laptop? 249 comments
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These are not PC issues, but Windows issues. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:These are not PC issues, but Windows issues. (Score:5, Funny)
Of course one could argue though that microsoft finally broke the only known fix for windows when they implemented this "feature".
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Re:These are not PC issues, but Windows issues. (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:These are not PC issues, but Windows issues. (Score:5, Funny)
This is windows. They prolly did a study and found that having multiple shortcuts to open task manager increased productivity so you can end task faster.
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Re:These are not PC issues, but Windows issues. (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:These are not PC issues, but Windows issues. (Score:4, Informative)
It's under User Settings in the Control Panel.
ctrl-alt-delete:
If the "Welcome Screen" is enabled, then you get the task manager
If it's disabled, you get the menu with all the choices.
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Re:These are not PC issues, but Windows issues. (Score:5, Informative)
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/281980 [microsoft.com]
This discusses what you're talking about, which is opening task manager. That only happens when you've got it set up to use the 'Welcome' screen. The rest of the time, it pops up a little widget that has
(Lock Computer) (Log Off) (Shut Down)
(Change Password) (Task Manager) (Cancel)
buttons on it.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
But the thing with buttons for lock/log off/shutdown/change password/task manager, that's the windows security dialog.
Re:These are not PC issues, but Windows issues. (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:These are not PC issues, but Windows issues. (Score:4, Insightful)
How do you login without using ctrl-alt-del? How about unlocking a locked XP session? Face it, this abomination of UI silliness is still neccessary all the time if you're unlucky enough to use windows.
Maybe the control-alt-delete issue is fixed in Vista, but frankly it's one of the things that makes Windows not really ready for the desktop.
My understanding of the reason for using crtl-alt-delete to log in, is because that specific keystroke got passed directly to Windows which then could make sure the official login program was running and accepting all input (or something along those lines). I think the deal is that otherwise, there's a chance that what users are seeing is not Windows' real login screen but a fake designed to steal passwords.
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Hogwash (Score:3, Informative)
Linux gets orphaned processes all the time, and you'd be blind without a method to view what's running on your machine. Thus ps , or the more useful top .
Re:Hogwash (Score:4, Informative)
No it doesn't.
But that's not what he's talking about. To log into Windows, you have to press Ctrl-Alt-Delete before Windows will show you a login screen. Linux just boots up to a "username: " prompt.
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Re:These are not PC issues, but Windows issues. (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:These are not PC issues, but Windows issues. (Score:4, Insightful)
And the funny (or sad?) thing is that this is only "necessary" in Windows because of all the crap that Windows can get infected with. Neither Linux nor OSX needed to implement the ctrl-alt-del scheme.
No, it's "necessary" in Windows for the same reason it's "necessary" on all platforms. To ensure no other application is masquerading as a login screen.
My understanding of the reason for using crtl-alt-delete to log in, is because that specific keystroke got passed directly to Windows which then could make sure the official login program was running and accepting all input (or something along those lines).
It's used because back when NT was first designed, they needed some reasonable key combination to use for the Secure Attention Sequence that was not already being used by some other application. The only one that that was (for obvious reasons, in ~1990 or so) was Ctrl+Alt+Del.
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Re:These are not PC issues, but Windows issues. (Score:5, Insightful)
Now they want to put it on a single button, surrounded by other tiny buttons? Someone had a real winner of an idea there...
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Re:These are not PC issues, but Windows issues. (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:These are not PC issues, but Windows issues. (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:These are not PC issues, but Windows issues. (Score:4, Interesting)
How is it a Windows issue? Is Windows the only piece of software out there to use multi-key combos?
Also you can open the task manager without any keyboard keys at all (right-click on the task back, pick Task Manager.. now I suppose they have some way to right-click on this device).
That said the ctrlaltdel button solution seems stupid. I'd rather implement a "combinator" button: a button that accumulates the keys pressed while it's down, and fires the signals at once when release.
Example of usage:
1. Hold the combinator button with the left hand.
2. With the right hand tap in succession, one by one: ctrl, alt, del.
3. Release the combinator button.
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
It also has a dedicated "any" key.
Linux? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
This simply isn't true. A system used to run Linux with X, a desktop and some typical end-user applications (say Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice) requires more resources than an XP system with IE, OutlookExpress, Office.
Linux advocates like to claim the contrary but they base their claims on old information, limited environments (embedded sytems, limited GUI, crippled apps).
Sorry, no. (Score:5, Informative)
Sorry, what are you sources ?
First, or course, if you go for the memory hogs like OOo or FireFox (whose caching function is both a blessing for quick history rewind and a curse in terms of ressource), the whole stack GNOME + FireFox + ThunderBird + OOo. Can eat some memory.
Incidently that's what I'm running (minus GNOME. I prefere KDE). Also with additionnal software like Gaim and several daemons, including BOINC. Without troubles. On a 8 years old 440BX-based machine (which only beefed up memory and processor since then).
To be fair, if you go for that route, then your XP system should also have included an Anti-Virus (with on access scanning, not ClamWin), an Anti-Spyware, a decent FireWall (zonealarm or such) some popup/ads filtering tool (Or should use FireFox+Adblock too). These are required for any typical Windows installation and are memory hogs too. (I could be cynical and add that the typical Windows installation also has at least a couple of trojans pumping spam).
And in my personnal experience, the Windows setup tends to be less responsive.
Studies done by others [kde.org] show that a machine with 128MB would be happy with most Linux situations, and with a swap and some sensible choice (I'm not speaking about using WMaker and browsing with lynx. I'm saying using KDE and K-applications for the rest to re-use dynamique libraries) even less memory could still be usable.
Actually this situation I use under Linux is one of the worst possible permutation (Simultaneously run KDE, GTK, XUL, and OOo's stacks) and somehow it mnage to do well enough.
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You know your PCs too small when... (Score:4, Funny)
* Sneezing anywhere near it wipes out the RAID array
* You confuse it with a prophylactic
* Ants use it to jumpstart their own nuclear weapon program for their holy war against the termites
Re:You know your PCs too small when... (Score:5, Funny)
Zouch! I feel really sorry for your girlfriend* if you thought small & the first thing that sprang into your mind was a prophylactic.
* Yes, yes. This is slashdot, what am I thinking?
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Control Alt (Score:4, Funny)
I bet that key will get worn out first
I've found a similar shortcut; just click the Internet Explorer 7 icon, and the resulting crash reboots for me.
The wave of the future. (Score:4, Interesting)
FlipOff (Score:5, Funny)
All About The Keyboard (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:All About The Keyboard (Score:4, Interesting)
I think these ultra-portable PCs are off on a wrong track, and they will disappear from the marketplace. Here's what I want:
a) Doesn't radiate signficant heat
b) Lasts at least a day on the battery
c) Built in apps... word processor, spreadsheet
d) Act as an ebook reader
e) GUI organized around keyboard access rather than mouse
f) Laptop style keyboard
g) Flash memory instead of hard disk
h) Battery backed RAM, but off of a battery that is independent of the charge cycle of the main battery. That, or the hibernate code needs to be rock solid and fast. Open the lid, and the system is usable, not 15 seconds later.
i) I don't care if it has a color screen, really. B/W or grayscale would be fine. Even some of the e-ink style displays would be ok for office apps.
j) Obviously, USB, flash drive ports, ethernet would be nice.
k) Doesn't need a pointing device. Just needs a good keyboard. Trackpads and pointers suck, and mice don't work when you're balancing a laptop on your lap on the train or a cramped space.
l) Integrated applications. No Load/Save file paradigm.
The closest thing on the horizon is OLPC. But I'm not convinced they're going to get the battery life, and they're target market means that they are making a smaller keyboard and targeting users who may not be able to read yet. That said, the GUI shows lots of good ideas.
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It's called a PDA (Score:4, Insightful)
No what you are asking for is a PDA.
A good Palm paired with one of the good foldable keyboards (to bad that they did'nt produce non-wireless keyboard for newer Athena Connector) - the good ones (Stowaway keyboard for older Palm Universal Connector) have the same area as a regular desktop keyboard.
has flash / bluetooth / optionnal WiFi.
some software are sold together with (Browser, Mail client, Documents-to-Go, etc), other can be installed for free (beer/speech) like SSH clients, VNC clients, tons of ebook readers.
instant on/off (no suspend to disk) with either battery ram (older models) or flash (newer).
uses database paradigm instead of file load/save (the Palm ones). When it seldom crashes, you just reset and return to the app with the document in the state with which you left it (WinCE crashes more often).
you just instantly jump around from app to app (Palm tend to be more snappy than WinCE)
no mouse. use stylus or fingers.
lower power consumption : battery last enough for the day and can easily be charged from USB (either in craddle or using 220v-to-5vUSB wall socket plugs or 12vCar-to-5vUSB cigarette lighter plugs)
has many other useful functionnality (GPS hardware and software can be installed. Great console emulators.)
Have no personnal experience with Linux based PDA, but I except them to be good too.
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Middle finger salute (Score:4, Funny)
That's not too small a computer (Score:5, Insightful)
This should be obvious. Does it really make sense to load a huge OS like Windows, with all its carryover behaviors for backwards compatibility, for something that really should have its own methodology?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Personally, I like to run at 3840x1024 or 3072x768 on a desktop. This is nothing to do with Windows and everything to do with the complexity of what I do with Wind
this isn't too small. bring the dock if you want. (Score:4, Interesting)
Too Small How? (Score:4, Insightful)
Is this talking about the size of the keyboard (which it sounds like), the size of the screen, or the size of the whole device?
It is obvious that keyboards/pads have a minimum size. Fingers limit that. Also, if the keys are too close together, typing is slowed because more than one key is frequently depressed.
The screen is also limited in its smallness by what is comfortable. I use my phone to read books, but I have heard many people claim (who havent tried it, of course) that the screens on phones are too small to read on. In my experience, screen size is not important as the size of the individual letters (or characters) in the text is what is important. Since my current phone allows me to blow the text up to a size that is larger than the typeface on most children's books, I cannot see the problem.
The limitations on the device size probably depend on what it is used for. If it is a phone, it needs to be large enough to be comfortably held for a long phone conversation. Phones that are too small are irritating and easily misplaced. If the device is a PDA, the screen is probably the limiting factor. It should be about the size of a screen and not much thicker. Ideally, this screen should be a size that would fit in your pocket, something that "Pocket"PC's generally do wrong.
If the device were something like a portable computer, with perhaps a bluetooth or WiFi keyboard and screen, there is probably no limit on its smallness. Why not make a USBkey style computer and keep it on your keyring? At 4+GB, such devices can already contain a decent suite of software. Removing hardware links to the device itself would free it from size restrictions. Theoretically, such a device could also be booted from any computer as its hard drive (Knoppix style), so you could take your computer anywhere.
Wrong tree (Score:5, Insightful)
So as long as you need a keyboard, the keys must be large enough to press, and the entire keyboard must be large enough to comfortably hold. But if you think virtual keyboards, i.e. one projected into the air, on a HUD, or on a table (the later exists as a Palm Pilot accessory), then the size of the actual hardware again is irrelevant, the size of the virtual "keys" is what matters.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
That's one reason to believe portable computers (as in really portable, PDA and down) will never develop to the point where they are used for apps requiring complex input.
But we may see the development of tiny pearl-sized computer you can "anchor" in any host monitor/keyboar
Re:Wrong tree (Score:4, Insightful)
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I'm not entirely sure how... (Score:4, Funny)
11.87" (Score:5, Insightful)
Why even answer such a question? (Score:4, Interesting)
Why not just provide standard keyboard and screen interfaces for the thing. Then, the PC can be very small, and users can purchase a case that meets their needs. OK, I guess you do have to answer the question in some sense: The PC is too small when it doesn't have room for the following standard connectors: Video, Network, USB some kind of power.
OK, we might be missing a standard for the laptop-style LCD screens. I know there's LVDS, but AFAIK all the manufactureres have proprietary connectors (but correct me if I'm wrong).
The other day, as I was fiddling with my MP3 player, I realized that many such specialized devices could easily fit in a laptop case. If everything inside there ran over 10gigE, would it perform OK? Do we really need DMA and all that just to push pixels to the screen? If we don't, then the display server can just service clients. The clients can be on this little private network inside the box. All the interconects would just be client-server interactions. Moore's law will make this practical at some point... Imagine a Beowulf cluster--inside your laptop or PDA case.
Can not be too small. (Score:4, Insightful)
What *can* be too small is the interface. I do not like a tiny screen nor do I like a tiny keyboard (or other input device). I have quite large hands, even the smaller "full size" keyboards are uncomfortable and only useful as a portable device, not my main one.
I have seen keyboard solutions that are OK - some project a keyboard on a flat surface and optically(? I do not think the descriptions said and I have never used one and that seems about the only feasible way) sense where you fingers hit. Other than some RSI problems with my finger hitting a hard surface (and that is fixable for a permanent station) that can be made to be any size or layout.
I also prefer small text, but I prefer that on a larger screen. I am currently using a 15" LCD and that is about as small as I comfortably go. I do not like writing much code in it either, my 21" monitor went kaput and this is all I could currently get. A 17" screen is the smallest "normal" lcd I like and I prefer a 19". I know of no current technology to fix this one, but there is no reason it can not be fixed.
Of course, that is for what I would call everyday use. If your computing power is in a small package there is no reason you can not have a docking station for full size stuff and quite small for carry around. I *can* hit some very small keys with a stylus and use a very small screen (lets face it, many of us currently do - or did - with the palm tops). That is nice for something I pull out of my pocket and use for a few minutes. Add in a few larger keys to mash and I can even game, navigate for MP3's, use a cell phone, add something to a calendar, or other typical small device things with large easy to use buttons. At that point I would consider the size my finger can reliably hit and the number of buttons to be the limit (small could use a stylus, but I do not like that idea for simple frequently used functions).
Nokia N800: pretty real, and fits in shirt pocket (Score:5, Interesting)
It has included opera (800 px wide screen so you can actually view most web pages without horizontal scrolling, unlike all the 320x200 PDAs). You can ssh into it and use VNC and run opera and gnumeric and lots of Linux software.
The included mp3 player software sucks, but there are already better alternatives provided by the community. Battery life is quite good compared to my old Ipaq - 8+ hrs of active web browsing on low backlight (maybe 2-3 on high), and ~8 days of standby time without turning it off.
Disclaimer: I have no association with Nokia. I just like the device.
Re:Nokia N800: pretty real, and fits in shirt pock (Score:5, Insightful)
Almost 3 years ago I opted for a "converged" phone, a Samsung SCH-i700 PDA phone from Verizon. It was pretty nice, but DAILY use exposed the shortcomings of using a handheld as a phone. Yet there were times that the device was pretty damn convenient, when I needed to Remote Desktop, VNC, or get a "more featured" browser.
Nokia realized that putting a phone in a PDA is dumb, and they have avoided this mistake in their N series tablets. Until wireless data is universal and cheap, there's no point building the expense of a PHONE into your PDA. There's even less point in using a PDA as a phone.
Things are better today -- you can get a "normal" phone with data, and bluetooth modem support. Your PDA becomes "agnostic" about who provides the data layer - 802.11, bluetooth, or the US cell phone cartels. It doesn't matter anymore. Now you have real choices.
The Nokia N800 is the closest thing now to a perfect portable Internet tablet. You don't need to know Linux. It just "works". Developers are finding the device is a DREAM to develop on, combining Linux + GTK to make an open platform for anyone to use and develop on. Desktop Linux apps are being polished and ported over. And applications like 'Maemo Mapper (GPS)' are awesomely free.
You don't get a lot of free apps with Windows CE platforms... and many of the free apps there suffer from developer disinterest. WinCE software dies when the author becomes too busy with life/etc, while Linux and GPL software has a life all its own.
Some will complain about the N800's lack of CDMA/G3 data support, but this is GOOD -- really that is what your phone is for. Same thing with the keyboard... buy your OWN bluetooth keyboard if you want one. This was these 2 features do not bulk up the dimensions of the device.
If you want a "bigger" tablet, the Pepper Pad 3 seems interesting. If you want something that is truly portable, the Nokia N800 is the platform to beat now.
PS - the media player isn't horrible, but it suffers from limitations like any closed source media player. The media player has GOOD format support... many formats except no OGG support. The free 'Canola' media player offers a MythTV-like interface, touchscreen, and it plays just about anything you throw at it. Video performance on this is VERY good for a handheld.
Oh yeah, there's a webcamera built in and meeting software. Now we have to wait for Skype and GnomeMeeting so we can ditch the Nokia meeting app...
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Price matters, size doesn't (Score:4, Insightful)
OLPC seems to get it right, the small laptop costs $150, make that $250 if it ever hits retail and its still a good price, I can also get PSP for $200, not exactly a full featured PC, not at all in fact, but a powerfull handheld at a good price, an for some uses like eBook reading actually quite good.
I don't need a handheld that can outperform my desktop computer, I don't even need one that gets close, just make it fast enough so that it can run ssh, VNC and friends. If I ever need a full PC, I just log into it remotely, no need to carry all that useless power around with me.
Handhelds need to be affordable, everything else is really secondary in the end, since at $2000 those things will never sell to the masses, no matter how pretty and small you make them, get them under $500 or under $300 if you really care and you might have something worth to buy.
Re:Sticky qualifiers! (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Not time yet (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
"This keyboard combination was designed by David Bradley, a designer of the original IBM PC. Bradley originally designed Control-Alt-Escape to trigger a soft reboot, but he found it was too easy to bump the left side of the keyboard and rebo
Re:Notebooks = too small (Score:4, Funny)
Just wait till you get married. Having a dedicated place for entertainment just means your wife knows where to go to bug you. At least with my laptop I get 15 extra minutes of solitude while she looks around the house for me.
Not to mention the corner pub has free wifi.
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