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Wireless Networking Communications Hardware

An 802.11 Router For 3G Internet Service 100

Posted by timothy from the network-convergence dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Possio AB has launched a Linux-based wireless access point that allows users to connect to the Internet through 3G (third-generation) mobile telephone networks, which carry Internet data at broadband speeds. According to the Swedish company, which has filed for a patent on local-to-cellular routers, the PX30 can bring broadband wireless Internet service to small sites such as cafes, temporary hotspots such as building and event sites, mobile hot-spots such as buses and limos, and hot-spots in locations without a wired backhaul alternative. It can also be used, Possio says, by mobile-only carriers wishing to offer broadband Internet service, and in data acquisition and remote management applications such as M2M (machine-to-machine) applications."
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An 802.11 Router For 3G Internet Service More

An 802.11 Router For 3G Internet Service

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  • How is Routing Between Two Networks Non-Obvious (Score:5, Interesting)

    by HeelToe ( 615905 ) on Tuesday July 06, 2004 @09:14PM (#9627982) Homepage
    I don't get this - how can you file for a patent on routing between two networks? There's no way this is non-obvious to an engineer in the trade.

    Jeez, I've done this with nat under linux to my Verizon Wireless 1x phone.

    Patents are out of control.

  • prior art = http://www.rauhauser.net/ (Score:3, Interesting)

    by puzzled ( 12525 ) on Tuesday July 06, 2004 @09:15PM (#9627986) Journal


    Please, please don't slashdot me, but I've been talking about this so called patented invention for some time and I've got one sitting right here. Feel free to contact me if you're a patent attorney with an axe to grind ...

  • I Dunno (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Bongo the Monkiii ( 793956 ) on Tuesday July 06, 2004 @09:15PM (#9627987) Journal

    Seriously, who needs broadband on the cell, and who's going to lug around a laptop for high speed access? What are you going to do, jerk to high quality pr0n on your local park bench?

    Seriously though. High speed access may be neat for transferring large, high quality sound files, images, and even streaming video (boy, all those places that banned camera-enabled cells will love that), but I think the data / voice streams shouldn't intermingle. That way, if one gets hogged up by a lot of activity in a concentrated area, the other isn't adversly affected.

    • Re:I Dunno (Score:5, Insightful)

      by manabadman ( 589984 ) on Tuesday July 06, 2004 @09:27PM (#9628068)

      Read the article (or even the blurb). They aren't talking about a cell phone. Its more like a broadband router with 3G network support.

      There are many instances where this would be helpful. For example mobile applications would be made possible by such a device. Think WiFi hotspots on trains, buses, and cars.

      It would also be an alternative for persons that have no other broadband internet access available to them. Cell networks are easier and cheaper to roll out than physically wired networks, so it might give someone access to the internet that might otherwise be impossible.

      Also think about all the possibilities for actual cellphones. Mix VOIP with broadband over cellphone, the right software, and voila, long distance, overseas calls for next to nothing. Maybe we could get video in addition to voice (after we figure out why we would want that)

      The future of cellphone and WAN technology is bright. Try ot to be such a wet blanket.

    • Re:I Dunno (Score:3, Insightful)

      by gl4ss ( 559668 )
      * but I think the data / voice streams shouldn't intermingle. That way, if one gets hogged up by a lot of activity in a concentrated area, the other isn't adversly affected.*

      so.. what makes you think there's no priorisations and balancing?

    • Re:I Dunno (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I am using a GPRS (not 3G) cell phone w/ my linux laptop right now from my apartment, because we are on a long waiting list for DSL due to saturation in the local central office!

      Also, what you describe IS exactly how modern cell data works. The packet traffic is handled in a best-effort fashion using a small number of channels on the wireless infrastructure (sometimes statically allocated and sometimes dynamically adjusted). Voice calls negotiate an appropriate QoS path as part of the call setup. Congesti

  • Would be nice if these were useful around Japan (Score:4, Informative)

    by timecop ( 16217 ) on Tuesday July 06, 2004 @09:18PM (#9628005) Homepage
    But it isn't gonna happen.
    Since every existing 3G network (kddi, docomo's foma) are billed per packet/per second for each connection.

    While Verizon is charging something like $90 a month for unlimited 1xEVDO in south california.

    How's the situation with 3G data in Europe?
    Is it all flat-rate as well?

    • Re:Would be nice if these were useful around Japan (Score:4, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 06, 2004 @10:27PM (#9628425)
      Verizon is $80 for unlimited, and it has been NATIONWIDE for over 18 months.

      I have spent the past 3 years traveling the United States in a RV with my wife. We are on Verizon 24 horus a day at least 20 days a month... the other 10 das a month we use WiFi.

      Sprint has similar pricing ($80/month), but they require a PCMCIA card and their network is not as reliable.

      Verizon is more flexible, they allow you to use a phone or PCMCIA card (Kyocera 2235 telephone car kit has a rs232 port capable of 230Kbps, works with OpenBSD/Linux/MacOSX/Win/etc.).
    • 3G in UK comes per-MB at 75 per month; 75 will get you unlimited access. Coverage outside of large towns is patchy, at least in Scotland.

      For what it's worth I think this is awesome, patented or not (ain't no way I'm going to be sued for sticking a 3G card in my laptop and letting others share my connection). One more step towards an always-on-everywhere Internet connection.

      - Chris
    • I thought KDDI had introduced flat-rate? According to this [3gnewsroom.com] article they have.

      Here in Sweden it's all per packet charge. I personally pay about $1/Mb for my 3G data. Although I can stream 128kbit sound to my phone, those tariffs prohobits it for more proof of concept... :(

      /ushac
      • flat rate only to the handsets.
        you cannot use it for data.
        flat-rate "data" service to download ringtones and other garbage for $60 a month doesn't sound like a sweet deal to me.

        quoting the article:
        Japan has been wary of offering flat rate mobile services because of the strain on the limited amount of spectrum available. Users to the new service has unlimited access to e-mail and data services available through KDDI's portal, including access to the Internet, but does not apply to the use of a handset to co
    • 3G phone subscribers are billed per packet, but there's no reason the providers have to bill all of their customers that way.

      I think the idea is to find a use for 3G infrastructure that cost billions and isn't being used. 3G was expected to take off and didn't; WiFi wasn't expected to take off and did. Maybe 3G services will be popular in a few years, but in the meantime the owners can make some money by connecting WiFi hotspots to the net. Sounds like a great idea to me - some of the most attractive loca

  • ok... I know that everyone likes broadband, and I think that this idea is pretty cool, but in all reality, being practical, you need to consider the fact that you generally won't need broadband on today's cell phones, but... in the future it will be useful, cell phones in the future may have the ability to stream video to a nifty little screen, or audio files, or who knows what, so setting up this technology as a framework for others to build on in the future is not a bad idea, it probably wont hurt anythin
    • Really? I can think of a lot of applications for this. How about live traffic updates for your car? Dynamically update the route when there's an accident. How about using your laptop on the beach? There are all sorts of uses....

    • Re:a nice idea but come on (Score:4, Insightful)

      by metalligoth ( 672285 ) <metalligoth.gmail@com> on Tuesday July 06, 2004 @09:39PM (#9628151)

      but... in the future it will be useful, cell phones in the future may have the ability to stream video to a nifty little screen, or audio files, or who knows what

      This is Insightful? My phone could do video and audio over the web in 2002, at three times the speed of dial-up. I live in Michigan, one of the USA, and everyone knows the USA are far behind everyone else when it comes to cellular phone technology. I'm sure people in Japan could do streaming video in 1999. Where do you live where you can't get a phone that gets streaming media over the web? Antarctica?

      • alright look, sure you can now... but i am saying on a bigger scale, like being able to watch tv on a cell phone, through the towers... or webcasts, the fact is that the current system cant support a large number of people doing that... especially at higher qualities... so this new system is deifnitely an improvement over the status quo technologies, and it will be useful, because even 3 times the speed of dialup, or 10, or 20, isn't adequate for high quality video, once again, just my opinion

    • Re:a nice idea but come on (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Has anyone here RTFA? This device is not a 3G device. UMTS is mentioned as an optional WAN connectivity feature. I'm not familiar with OSGi, but the device seems to be basically a router between different wireless networks.

      From a technical perspective this is interesting. There's quite a bit of radio hardware integration in that box. However I don't see why I would use 3G as a backhaul. Why would you use a lower-bandwidth pipe as a backhaul? What's the point of 802.16 then?

      I don't quite see how connecting
    • cell phones in the future may have the ability to stream video to a nifty little screen, or audio files, or who knows what

      Dude. Who gives a rat's ass about cell phones with broadband access?

      My laptop with a pcmcia card at broadband speeds that I can use almost anywhere. Yeah, that kicks ass.

      Having it at 100mb/s or 1gb/s would especially kick ass.

      Cellphones, they are for talking to people.

  • Sprint's 3G network not fully functional yet (Score:5, Informative)

    by dethl ( 626353 ) on Tuesday July 06, 2004 @09:24PM (#9628049)
    Kinda hard to surf the net at the speeds mentioned in the article when carriers like Sprint haven't made 3G fully functional. I am still only able browse the web at a mere 5k or so, 10k bursts if I'm lucky.
    • I routinely hit 75Kbps and often 100Kbps when connecting my Spring phone to my laptop for remote access. As others have mentioned, perhaps your signal is weak or you have a bad phone. Not all phones get the same speeds.
    • Kinda hard to surf the net at the speeds mentioned in the article when carriers like Sprint haven't made 3G fully functional. I am still only able browse the web at a mere 5k or so, 10k bursts if I'm lucky.

      Really? I consistently get 160kbps with my Sprint Treo 300 connected through a custom PDANet driver to my laptop (Windows only, sadly). There is also a program called WirelessModem for the Mac, but it's so buggy it caused kernel panics every few hours or so (grey screen of death) on my PowerBook.

      Spri
  • Well, take the Treo design, merge it with broadband. What do you get? Highspeed internet on your pda.

  • Ridiculous (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ikekrull ( 59661 ) on Tuesday July 06, 2004 @09:43PM (#9628174) Homepage
    Connecting my Bluetooth GPRS phone to my Wi-Fi enabled mac laptop and adding a couple of routes would accomplish exactly this. Is this actually patentable?

    How the hell is the trivial and obvious combination of widely available consumer technology patentable?

    Will we need a patent license to plug a phone into a laptop, if the laptop has a Wifi card in it?

    Will my zaurus w/GPRS card and built-in wifi be an infringing device?

    I mean really, it's not like you need a pHD. to connect to two wireless networks at the same time on the same device.

    • That did look like a tripped T68i inside their box. Hmmm...
    • I just did this last weekend.

      I have a powermac with blutooth and an airport extreme card.

      If you open up 'System Preferences' then 'Sharing" then 'Internet Sharing' then select sharing the 'Bluetooth' connection with the 'Airport' card, you get a DHCP wireless router over 802.11g.

      I was conected to my GPRS Nokia 6600 phone to the net, and my kid in the other room was on her iBook over the AirPort card.

      I thnk the patent office should contact Apple about prior art since it is standard on all powerbooks to d

  • Some Slashdotters probably have prior art. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Jonathan Quince ( 737041 ) on Tuesday July 06, 2004 @09:45PM (#9628180) Homepage

    I have had this idea, and I am surely far from alone. There are probably people here who are handy with embedded Linux (or Windows CE, a la Microsoft's own home broadband routers) who have hacked together a similar device. With consumer-market PCMCIA cards that can handle the cellular end and mini-PCI 802.11 cards you can extract from most any home cable/dsl router, this is more of a hardware geek's weekend pleasure hack than a non-obvious, patentable invention.

    Build one of these and mount it in your car, and you have Internet access for your laptop, PDA, and other gadgets when you hit the road. Run it on batteries and make a picnic basket or backpack that carries a wireless LAN wherever you go (power requirements shouldn't be huge, especially when the device is configured for use outdoors at very short ranges). The possibilities are endless. (Alas, I don't have the technical knowledge to build one myself.)

  • The article only states an NAT box which connects a 3G mobile (as modem). What makes it differ from a MS machine with a 3G mobile modem and enable Internet Connection Share? (Or the equiv on Linux, ppp on demand + MASQ)... strange!

  • Seattle company has similar product (Score:5, Informative)

    by eggboard ( 315140 ) * on Tuesday July 06, 2004 @09:49PM (#9628207) Homepage
    Possio was certainly first, but a company formed by ex-Monet Mobile (Burst) folks, including its founder, has a similar item in the U.S. called the Junxion Box. I wrote the first feature [nwsource.com] about it for The Seattle Times a few weeks ago. The Junxion Box can use 2G, 2.5G, and 3G cellular data networks. Junxion's technology allows interchangeable cell data PC cards from normal subscriptions -- its sort of generic hardware with simple drivers.

  • Speed Vs Coverage (Score:4, Insightful)

    by fembots ( 753724 ) on Tuesday July 06, 2004 @09:56PM (#9628250) Homepage
    Is broadband speed a pre-requisite for wireless services nowadays?

    Personally I would rather be able to use the Internet from as many locations as possible, than having a broadband conenction via 3G only in the city central.

    Is 1G or 0.2G (or whatever older technology) too expensive to implement mobile Internet?
    • You could always walk around with a satalite dish strapped to your head.

    • 2 and 1 G cant be mobile internet (Score:4, Informative)

      by JohnnyComeLately ( 725958 ) on Tuesday July 06, 2004 @10:59PM (#9628612) Homepage Journal
      I was a network engineer for Sprint PCS during the launch of 2G and 3G. By definition, 2G is still a circuit switched data call. Laymans terms: You're using your cell phone as a modem. You're confined to dial up speed max, as you're actually just switching through the voice network, going through a modem bank (Sprint used 3Com Edgeservers) and then going out a dial up line. This isn't the "mobile Internet" you use with 3G.


      In 3G, your connection's speed is managed by overhead signaling and your connection will vary by the resources available (as implemented by CDMA 2000). To the layman, you may get only a basic channel of 9.6k if there is a lot of traffic. However, during periods of less activity, you'll peak up around 60-80 as an average. You may see it hit around 100k/sec, but voice traffic takes priority and will quickly knock you back down (unless you live in the sticks, or surf at 3am...after the drunks have called for their ride home).


      You mention Mobile Internet, so I'm thinking you're alluding to Mobile IP. Mobile IP is only implemented in 3G, and uses Home Agent, Foreign Agents, AAA servers (authentication, billing), Packet Data Server Nodes (PDSN) and Packet Control servers (PCF). To the layperson, these are tunnels within IP, using care of addresses, to manage a network connection that is changing its point of connection. In implementation, you could fire up your laptop in NYC, and drive to Southern California without changing IP address. This way your applications don't break.
      I could post a thesis on this, but I'm currently sitting in a Software Engineering class (ignoring a slide show on Java Beans) so I'm gonna cut it short here.

      • Re:2 and 1 G cant be mobile internet (Score:2, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Err, maybe in Sprint's network 2G is circuit switched. For the rest of us in the GSM world, GPRS has been giving us packet-switched data for a long time. Worldwide, the 2G/3G distinction has more to do with the modulation schemes and effective bitrate.

        My basic 2 years old motorola gets 40-60 kb/s GPRS download speeds in practice around the world. More recent EDGE equipment can get up to a couple of hundred kilobits/s in upgraded cells. A real 3G scheme should reach towards megabits/s (though real users wil
      • i think 4G is closer than we think.
        Japan's NTT DoCoMo is testing [3gnewsroom.com] it.
        India is skipping 3G alltogether and going straight to 4G.
        the reason: 3G is too little, too late. It's not completely packet-based (voice calls are still point-to-point), and it allows for only up to 300kbps. read the fine print: that's bits per second. so in the best of all cases (3am, drunks home in bed, etc), you get... 30kB/seconds. rather underwhelming.

        with 4G, on the other hand, NTT DoCoMo targets 100Mbit/s for the customer.
    • Telcos providing 3G in the UK fall back to 2.5G when it's unavailable. If it's really *that* much cheaper to manufacture 2G-only tech then fair enough, but I don't see why this device wouldn't suit you just as well. If you're only paying for 2G you'll only get 2G, otherwise you get the bonus when you need it.

      - Chris
  • I claim Prior Art on their patent.. I can easily share my 3g connection across my network using Linux or WindowsXP as a router/gateway/firewall. I routinely do it when I'm having problems with my DSL to stay connected.

    Better yet on the Linux system if the card is inserted if GW 1 fails for any reason GW2 activates and assumes the MAC ID of GW1 so it's nearly seamless switching to one.. minus the lower bandwidth wireless usually gets.
    • Not sure I understand what you are talking about... why would you need to change the 3G card's MAC# to match the card connected to the DSL? or am I getting it all wrong?
      Is this not how it is set up?

      DSL ___
      -----| | LAN
      -----|___|-------
      3G

  • other idea... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by mshultz ( 632780 ) on Tuesday July 06, 2004 @10:17PM (#9628372)

    I have absolutely no idea how this would be implemented realistically (or if it has, and I'm just an idiot), but I'd also be very impressed if there were a way to have a bridge go in the opposite direction... in other words, you'd be able to set up a miniature cellular tower that would be able to route everything through existing IP networks (through some kind of tunnel) onto the telecom carrier's voice or data network.

    I know that this has sort of been discussed before [slashdot.org], but what about on a much smaller scale? This would hopefully provide a seamless way to patch up holes in a wireless coverage area in a cost-effective way...

  • Verizon Wireless 3G data stupidity (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 06, 2004 @10:36PM (#9628475)
    Verizon Wireless actually has a pretty good countrywide data setup (upto 150kbps), and will be deployin EVDO later this year (max 3mbps, typical 500kbps). The really funny thing is that their terms of service don't actually allow you to use it!
    Unlimited NationalAccess/BroadbandAccess: NationalAccess and BroadbandAccess data sessions may be used with wireless devices for the following purposes: (i) Internet browsing; (ii) e-mail; and (iii) intranet access (including access to corporate intranets, e-mail and individual productivity applications such as customer relationship management, sales force and field service automation). Unlimited NationalAccess/BroadbandAccess is for individual use only and not for resale. Unlimited NationalAccess/BroadbandAccess cannot be used (1) for uploading, downloading or streaming of movies, music or games, (2) with server devices or with host computer applications, including, without limitation, Web camera posts or broadcasts, automatic data feeds, telemetry applications, automated functions or any other machine-to-machine applications, (3) as a substitute or backup for private lines or dedicated data connections. NationalAccess and BroadbandAccess data sessions automatically terminate after two hours of inactivity unless used with a Mobile IP-capable device. We reserve the right to deny or terminate service, without notice, to anyone who uses NationalAccess or BroadbandAccess in any manner prohibited above or whose usage adversely impacts our network or service levels. We also reserve the right to terminate service upon expiration of Customer Agreement term. BroadbandAccess kilobyte usage may not appear on your bill.

    So don't use Windows update or virus definition updates (that would be an automated function). You can't use chat or newsgroups (not listed in i, ii or iii). Actually you can't use it all since "machine to machine applications" are prohibited which is pretty much what TCP/IP does. And you have to have a seperate working Internet connection anyway since you can't use this as a substitute (or a backup).

    • So true, and these companies feeling the pressure to rush to market, to be there first, with new apps, hardware,etc. forget that it's all in the timing to make it come together for the end user. And selling something that almost, halfway works. I guess that's all taken care of in the fine print.
    • These kinds of license agreements are not at all rare for many ISPs, and not only mobile ISPs. There are extreme limitations on how you can use the bandwidth. But in general no one will care anyway. Everyone is violating agreements and nothing happens. Still doesn't feel good though.
  • forget not a deep sleep mode for you laptop after you convert it into a semiautomous rover [msn.com] Crap if they can't get it right what makes you think you can?

  • The problem is the processor... not the pipe (Score:3, Interesting)

    by EvanKai ( 218260 ) on Tuesday July 06, 2004 @11:12PM (#9628714) Homepage
    I have a Treo300 through Sprint and I love it. When I'm surfing with my phone, it is very slow... but when I connect using Scott Gruby's WirelessModem [notifymail.com] on my G4 laptop, I get transfer speed comparable to a 56K dial-up.


    The difference in speed is the difference between the 33MHz Dragonball VZ in my Treo and the 800MHz G4 in my laptop. I've tried Treo600's and will be upgrading to a 610 when it's released. Moving up from a 33MHz to a 312MHz processor will make a huge difference.


    Think about it. What would broadband do for a 33MHz Pentium?

  • I just don't see how 3G can survive as mesh networks spread across the U.S. and as WiMax improves on WiFi. Telcos are unnecessary, the writing is on the wall. Even Michael Powell alleged [gartner.com] as much last month: They get mad at me, but I think they should be more scared. For all their size and success and revenue, their cards are not great. Places that 3G reaches but wireless networks don't are shrinking. Shriiiinking. The tons of money going to telcos will soon be going somewhere else, or staying in the typical

    • the diff is to handoff from net2net (Score:4, Informative)

      by JohnnyComeLately ( 725958 ) on Tuesday July 06, 2004 @11:28PM (#9628812) Homepage Journal
      The difference is handing off. I can drive from Las Vegas to Southern Cali, and then up to San Fran, all while handing off from network to network.....all while my application and destination server have no idea I've changed network points of connection. This may not seem like a big deal for short duration apps, like Explorer or Mail, where you can just restart the application and renew your DHCP, but there are some apps where you don't want the session to break constantly. If you never leave a small area, yes, you'll never know the difference.

      For a real good write up, go to IETF and read the white paper on Mobile IP. WiFi compared to MIP/3G is kinda similar to comparing oranges to limes. They're both citrus, but don't taste the same.

      • You do internet while you drive? You can't be referring to airplanes. Perhaps trains, where the niche for execs commuting could be lucrative (premium service).

        Okay, I'll do a search on IETF since you don't provide a link. Hmm, at IETF.org, a search on "mobile computing" produces [ietf.org] 3249 hits. The "Internet Engineering Task Force" is a very busy body.

        I would like to know what demographic will require mobile computing on 3G in comparison to the population that will never require it. I think the citrus fruit wo
        • Sorry, I was in a Software Eng class (still am) and trying to be brief. The professor was going in CLI commands to configure JBOSS, Apache's ANT, and J2SDK so I had to be paying more attention.

          This is not light reading, but I spent a few weeks reading the 1000 page ( +/- 100 pages depending on version) of the RFC2002, which outlines Mobile IP. [rfc-editor.org] I've been out of this for a couple years since Sprint laid me off, moved me to a hell hole named Kansas, and decided to ignore my last 4 years of network data and

  • Of course, I vote for a wardriving option. Wouldn't it be nice if you don't have to wardrive to find an open network to make calls from?

    Oh, right, this isn't a poll...
  • Well... isn't that dandy!

    Any Haxxor with a cheap mobile (e.g S55) and a SSH-client ( mobish.com and others) can now conveniently hack our web-sites!!

    Whats next? Paper-mobiles preinstalled with nmap and satan?
  • German GSM Operator O2 showed it off at CeBIT 2004. Worked flawlessly. O2 said to roll out a service using this thing this fall. The service is called surf@home, the box looks the same but is blue with an O2 logo.

    Prices are unknown yet. They should be lower than 'regular' UMTS (whatever that'll mean) because the service is working only in the 'Homezone'.

    This box&service makes it possible to cut off cables and ties to Deutsche Telekom for voice&data. An interesing proposition, if pricing is reasona
  • I haven't read the Possio Patent (and IANAL), so I don't really know if this is a software patent.

    But selling a GPL-based (Linux) patent-protected product seems interesting if you look at clause 7 in the GPL [gnu.org].

    ...For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program...

    So a compe
  • ...that you can setup your own local 3G/UMTS network by connecting each router with WLAN?

    If so, wonder what current cell phone access providers like Vodafone will think about this product?
  • How is this different from plugging my Treo into my windows laptop and selecting "Allow other computers to connect through this computer's network connection" under Properties:Advanced in the network setup?

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