Oil-Cooling 802.11 Infrastructure 186
gomoX writes "A group of 802.11b fans in Tordera, Spain, are running a wireless node on the roof of a building, with the idea of a free wireless network for everyone on the neighbourhood. Its a system running linux with a home made can antenna, mounted on a plastic tool box in the roof. To keep it cool under the sun and protect it from rain, wind, they have immersed it into vegetable oil (yes, the whole thing). As oil is non-conductive, everything should run fine. The site is in Spanish, here is the google translation and the google cache."
Interesting.. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Interesting.. (Score:1, Funny)
1: Write free software
2: ?
3: Cool stuff with oil.
4: Profit!
Re:Interesting.. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Interesting.. (Score:1)
...Can I have a side order of chips with that?
Quite tasty... (Score:2)
Hrm (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Hrm (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
One Problem... (Score:5, Interesting)
Wouldn't vegetable oil retain heat longer than the plastic and metal that it was intended to protect? I could see this thing getting very hot on a sunny afternoon.
Re:One Problem... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:One Problem... (Score:2)
There's additives and things in there, too; I could see solvent components getting into bad places. So what exactly is required to dissolve the adhesives holding a layered motherboard together?
Re:One Problem... (Score:2)
Re:One Problem... (Score:2)
Also I think vegetable oil smells alot better than diesel fuel.
Solution (Score:2)
Of course, one ould add a heat-exchanger to cool the thing based on water cooling
Get out your Pringles cans Tordera, ESP (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Get out your Pringles cans Tordera, ESP (Score:1)
Re:Get out your Pringles cans Tordera, ESP (Score:2)
responsibility for the service users' actions. But should
have no right to monitor them either. I pay the ISP for x
amount of bandwidth per second. What I use it for SHOULD
be my problem. I disagree with port filtering/throttling, I disagree
with federal tapping. And I most definately disagree with it being
an ISP's responsibility to cancel my service because soemone
whines about privacy. Note though, with free wireless the ISP should
be able to moni
Comments overheard on the rooftop (Score:3, Funny)
And a few weeks later...
"Eww, rancid!"
problems with oil cooling (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:problems with oil cooling (Score:2)
In order to keep oil dry you need a boatload of something like Calcium Stearate and a fully closed system. If it comes with contact with air anywhere it will go to 5-15% water in no time at all and become conductive. And then - boing...
Re:problems with oil cooling (Score:2)
Re:problems with oil cooling (Score:2)
Too bad I wasn't right, it would have been a lot easier and cheaper to clean up.
Would that be ... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Would that be ... (Score:4, Funny)
..should be fine (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:..should be fine (Score:2)
High voltage maybe? (Score:1)
He probably meany high voltage anyway.
Tension (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Tension (Score:2)
Re:..should be fine (Score:2)
What about lightning? (Score:1)
Re:What about lightning? (Score:2)
It's whether you prefer your dead equipment fried or roasted. That assumes it really survives the baking in the sun of course.
Unrelated info: Lunchtime soon for me
it'll go rancid (Score:1, Interesting)
I wonder what the by-products of the little beasties will do to the components...
Thermal runaway (Score:1)
Actually oil makes it water proof (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Actually oil makes it water proof (Score:3, Insightful)
Calling Dr. Hannibal... (Score:5, Funny)
It also rubs the lotion on its' skin, or it gets the hose again...please do not be pressing in the penguin, as that excites the penguin too much.
Thank you for your support.
And then when you do press in the Pinguino... (Score:2)
What a way to waste a motherboard. (Score:2)
Re:What a way to waste a motherboard. (Score:2)
Do you think the solvents in the motherboard would dissove and create conductivity? Still, truly I dont think it's a troll.
What oil would you reccomend?
Re:What a way to waste a motherboard. (Score:2)
Actually, Colorado State has a process on corn, soybean, or sunflower oil that allows it handle automotive engines. It was being tested on a fleet of detroit city cars. From what I understand, it is actually handling the high heat and needs a change every 10K miles instead of 3K miles. Apparently cheaper than regular oil. I wonder what is holding it back now.
Re:What a way to waste a motherboard. (Score:2)
Re:What a way to waste a motherboard. (Score:2)
Re:What a way to waste a motherboard. (Score:1)
Gray Box? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Gray Box? (Score:2)
mechanical connectors (Score:2)
Re:mechanical connectors (Score:5, Interesting)
It takes care of cooling the system -- they can get down to absurd cold temperatures.
There shouldn't be enough pressure for the oil to push itself under the contacts -- unless you immerse the motherboard down a few meters or so.
Ideally, if this isn't a web server and just an AP, they don't need a hard drive. They should switch to a 512 Mb compact flash drive or something with no moving parts.
Re:mechanical connectors (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:mechanical connectors (Score:2)
If you mean airtight, no. They have a little hole with a micropore filter that keeps inside and outside air pressure apprx. equal. And they have to have air inside to make the heads float or fly above the platters when they spin. The platters have enough friction to drag some air along as they move and this air flow is what keeps the heads lifted above the platters by some ridiculously small distance.
fried chips (Score:4, Funny)
Their word of warning (Score:5, Interesting)
Con el disco duro creíamos no había problema porque dicen que vienen "envasados al vacío" pues ahora podemos decir que no se si todos son igual pero el que usamos en primer lugar NO lo estaba. Lo metimos dentro del aceite y funciono bien, incluso dejamos todo el sistema 2 días enteros funcionando dentro del aceite sin problema alguno, el problema vino al moverlo para colocarlo en el tejado, que fue cuando posiblemente penetro aceite en el interior y una vez en el tejado no arrancaba. Entonces tuvimos que bajarlo todo de nuevo y buscar otro disco duro, instalar todo el linux de nuevo y no meterlo dentro del aceite. O sea que atención: NO hay que meter el disco duro en aceite ya que por algún lado entra dentro si lo meneas un poco
Basically, they inmersed everything in the oil, including the HDD (they didn't need a CD-ROM or FDD) and they figured the HDD would work even though it had moving parts because they're vacuum-sealed. Not so, their first prototype worked for two days and then the HDD died as oil got into the drive mechanism. They had to look for another disk, reinstall Linux and the rest of the software and then figure out a way to keep the hard disk out of the oil.
So there you have it folks, never put your hard disks in Mazola - they die.
Re:Their word of warning (Score:2)
harddrives need air. (Score:2, Informative)
This is why most harddrives on their labels say "DO NOT COVER EXHAUST HOLES"
Im surprised it worked for 2 days. Maybe thats how long it took for
Re:harddrives need air. (Score:1)
Yes, the head floats on an air cushion. But why can't the drive be hermetic?
Re:Their word of warning (Score:5, Funny)
(in Spanish):
"Your hard drive failed, sir?"
"Yes, yes, it was running fine just a few days ago, but now it won't read or write at all."
"Hmm. Odd. Is the drive plugged in and installed properly?"
"Yes, I immerssed it in a vat of vegetable oil."
"..."(sound of head banging against wall)
I wonder if that broke the warranty...
mmmmmmmmm. . .fried antenna (Score:1)
Oil problems (Score:3, Interesting)
Any word on this?
Re:Oil problems (Score:2)
A thought just struck me, why not spray the board with a laquer sealant, a process used when one sets up a watercooling rig to prevent any problems when either a leak or condensation
occurs.
Or a simple silicon sealer will do the trick as well..
World's largest deep dryer (Score:4, Funny)
A better way to do it (Score:5, Insightful)
First off, we're using wires to transmit our signals in the first place,so instead of immersing the whole fixture in oil, you ought to run wires up to the rooftops and have all of the computer equipment in the house, in a nice air conditioned room. That will solve the problem of the HDD and motherboard overheating. Just buy some nice fans, electric cooling units, or if you really are worried, water cool the sucker.
Second, yes oil makes a great cooling system, but NOT vegetable oil. They ought to have bought a non-biological version so that it won't spoil and grow things. Anaerobic microbes building up on a motherboard is not a good thing. Not to mention the oil will loose consistancy then, and develop pockets of non-oil byproducts of anaerobic respiration. Mineral oil would work much better, and is nearly as cheap. A gallon of the stuff ought only run $10 or so, compared to $5 for vegetable oil. 2x the price, but it would never have to be changed.
Thirdly, I wonder why they feel the need to use oil for cooling at all, if the attenna is the only thing exposed (as I suggested earlier), heat from the sun won't really effect performance to much, and if it does, build a shade. If it is water proofing you are worried about, that is a slightly different story, but you can easily encase it in transparent plastic (but be careful that it doesn't warp em radition passing through it, this has to be quality stuff.
The idea in general is cool, but not very practical.
Re:A better way to do it (Score:2, Informative)
Re:A better way to do it (Score:1)
computer indoors, radio on roof (Score:3, Interesting)
Use a small external radio, the sort that has three connectors: power, ethernet, antenna.
Keep the computer, hub, etc indoors and just run cat5 ethernet and some low voltage power cable up the the roof.
On the roof, mount the antenna and the radio. Put the radio in a small weatherpoof box, or even a reinforced plastic bag. You shouldn't need more than 40cm of cable. Heck, use a small adapter and mount the radio TO the antenna itself without any cab
Re:A better way to do it (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:A better way to do it (Score:2, Interesting)
Its called 'Conformal Coating' [mgchemicals.com], avaliable in silicon or acrylic as a spray-on.
You could just mask off a few sections of the motherboard (CPU socket, card connectors) and spray the board. Or just assemble it and spray the whole thing...
Why would anyone put the thing on the roof? (Score:3, Interesting)
Your suggestion about mineral oil is smart IMHO.
simon
Re:Why would anyone put the thing on the roof? (Score:1)
About wires (Score:2, Informative)
Here on spain our limit on signal power is 100mW. Lower than in USA as i know. And PigTails are cheaper in USA
See ya
This looks tempting. (Score:2)
The reason: I hate CPU fans.
They're loud. They die with distressing regularity. They're louder *as* they die - the death rattle can last for a year or more.
Put the motherboard in a bin of vegetable oil, keep the drives and power supply out of it (or even put the power supply into it), and you get convection cooling with heat sinks and no fans at all.
The only catch is that you're going to have to either filter the oil or change it regularl
Re:This looks tempting. (Score:1, Informative)
Re:This looks tempting. (Score:2)
Re:This looks tempting. (Score:2)
You need to buy the right fans.
80mm Panaflo fans, $8 at 1coolpc.
Lifetime warranty, he'll replace them if they ever get louder or die
Re:This looks tempting. (Score:2)
Conduction from the much larger surface area of the oil resovoir to the surrounding environment should work. Think of this a better way of coupling the cpu to the case heat-wise (use the whole case/resovoir basin as a heat sink to dump heat into the environment).
Mineral Oil would be a better choice (Score:1)
Wrong wrong wrong... (Score:5, Informative)
What they can use and is readily available at any store that sells Amateur radio gear or wholesale electrical supplies is transformer oil..
It's actually designed to be used in what the RF techs call dummy loads to conduct the heat away from the resistor banks that absorb the RF energy when they test transmitters. The stuff's most commonly used to wick away heat from electrial transformers, both at substations and the transformers hanging on the poles that supply 240 Volt AC to your home.
One COULD try to build a oil-cooling system on a custom PC, but the heat removal would not be as good as glycol/alchohol/water cooled system.
Watch that transformer oil! (Score:1)
It's unlikely that you'll find any PCB-laden transformer oil in the US these days (but not impossible, considering all
Re:Watch that transformer oil! (Score:1)
Re:Watch that transformer oil! (Score:4, Informative)
Try here
http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prod
They sell it by the gallon and its pricey, but its the real mccoy.
Re:Wrong wrong wrong... (Score:2)
Re:Wrong wrong wrong... (Score:2)
Cool! (Score:1)
Probably not going to survive long... (Score:3, Insightful)
In addition I do not see any external cooling or pipes to take the heat away, which means that the only difference is that the componets die a more uniform heat-death. Even though oil is not the best thing for convection. Viscosity is too high.
As "cool" as it looks, some intelligence and knowledge of physics and electronics is still non-optional for successful computer cooling.
One thing that could save the design is two long pipes, a pump and a heat-dump in the basement. And some cooling for the HDD.
Re:Probably not going to survive long... (Score:1)
Re:Probably not going to survive long... (Score:2)
The HDD is just a bad idea, they should have gone for a solid state disk (CF flash or DiskOnChip).
I am doubful they can get enough heat radiation going at all. After all
radiated_heat = temperature_difference * surface_area * surface_dependent_constant
If the surrounding air is cool enough, they co
Re:Probably not going to survive long... (Score:2, Informative)
In any kind of fluid flow (like, say, an atmosphere) convective heat transfer is going to be orders of magnitude more effective than radiant heat transfer. The best ways to increase convective heat transfer are to increase surface are
Re:Probably not going to survive long... (Score:2)
You are correct, I did mean convection. The term "radiated heat" im my posting is misleading. Really radiated heat is not a factor at the temperatures we are talking about here. Convection is what happens when heat is exchanged between
Re:Probably not going to survive long... (Score:2)
Does this void the warrenty? (Score:1)
From the translation... (Score:1)
*end silence of the lambs reference*
Ooops! Wrong oil!! (Score:4, Interesting)
Mineral oil is very similar to transformer oil, which is what electricity companies use to keep the transformers cool.
on vegetal oil (Score:2, Interesting)
They could have used mineral oil wich is less acid and would have worked well.
The thing about HDs is like this: they *were* vacuum closed in the beginning, but in some really dry and heat condition (texas, etc) they kinda explosed. So they started putting some small valves on them to avoid this: so the oil goes in.
I'm surprised they used veg. oil (Score:3, Interesting)
One of my friends used to work at KFC and he had told me how nasty the old oil would get while it sat outside awaiting pickup for disposal. I guess the little leftover bits of chicken probably had something to do with it, but I'm assuming vegatable oil is a pretty friendly enviorment for bacteria to thrive in nonetheless.
Vegetable oil? (Score:1)
mistranslation? (Score:1)
Only problem (Score:2)
These folks would be better off using petroleum-based oil.
Wowee... (Score:2)
And to think that they could have just spray-painted it reflective silver and added a few more fans.
steve
Not the first time! (Score:4, Interesting)
Since three years ago, Iberian hackers hold an annual meeting, called HackMeeting [sindominio.net].
The first one (code named hmbcn00 [sindominio.net]) took place in Barcelona (Catalonia), in a squat called Les Naus [sindominio.net], in October 2000.
The second one (code named hmleioa01 [sindominio.net]) took place in Leioa (Basque Country) also in a squatted house, the Udondo Gaztetxe [sindominio.net], in September 2001.
Finally, last October, it was hold in Madrid the 3rd HackMeeting (code named madhack02 [sindominio.net]).
As the previous meetings, it took place in a squat (El Laboratorio [sindominio.net]). This time gathered about 600 hackers.
It's not determined yet where the next HackMeeting will take place. Maybe somewhere in the countryside in Aragón.
Well, let's come back to the oil-powered PC.
In every hackmeeting there is a computer room, separated from the talks room. In the 3rd HackMeeting, the local HackLab [hacklabs.org] (called Wau Holland 2001 [sindominio.net]) had assembled a PC, put it in oil and placed in the computer room for public use.
I've placed a selection of pictures of the computer in oil [sindominio.net] (shot by Maky [slashdot.org] and Fernando Vicente [vicente.cc]) in my personal home page. Hope you like them.
Greetings,
Quique [sindominio.net]
Re:Call me crazy (Score:1)
Over short distances it doesn't really matter, but when you start having to run 75 or 100m of cable then you cut into your effective wifi range significantly, and it gets expensive.
Plus this is cooler. Pun intended.
Re:Thet should use PCB (Score:2)