EU Wants Removable Batteries In iPhones 320
MojoKid writes "Current regulation, introduced with the Restriction of Hazardous Substances Directive (RoHS) in July of 2006, primarily
sought to prevent the unnecessary use of toxic metals in batteries as well as making it easier to recycle and dispose of used batteries. The updated 'New Batteries Directive,' as
discussed in
New Electronics by Gary Nevision, would go much further. Article 11 of the
directive, as currently written, would require that devices must be made in such a way as to allow batteries, either
for replacement or at end of life for disposal to be 'readily removed.' Of course, Apple's iPhones and iPods wouldn't meet this requirement, as it stands. It's obvious that an iPhone battery replacement program could be considered a cash cow for Apple as well."
Mooo (Score:5, Informative)
You mean this iPhone battery replacement program [apple.com]?
$85.95! That's a lot of milk.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
When the battery costs 12$ to buy yeah, I'd say 74$ in profit for replacing the battery is a lot of milk.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Except that most phone batteries I've seen (at least those sold by the original manufacturer as replacement parts or upgrades) are significantly more expensive than $20.
And the big issue is that if you want the battery to be user replaceable, you have to design the case to be easily openable by the end user. This puts constraints on the design of both the case and resulting battery that would likely make the current designs impossible to replicate. And it's those designs that are a substantial fraction of t
Re: (Score:2)
I missed the part where he said a non-user-replaceable battery was a good thing. Could you point it out, please?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I believe that you're looking for this:
An iPhone that had a user replaceable battery would be an iPhone that sucks a little more than the current one, and IMHO it would not be a net benefit.
Heck I own an (2G) iPhone and I am quite happy with it, but justifying the lack of an user replaced battery this way is just silly. He could try arguing that way no third party batteries will find their way into iPhones and explode, but there has been a fine share of iPods exploding and melting down as well. I refuse to believe that adding a suitable battery compartment like every other fucking phone manufacturer out there has done would make the iPhone suck more. If
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
At least you provided some arguments that show how you believe the lack of an user serviceable battery is a feature, but I'm sorry, I think they are all BS. No offense, I hope. You could be right if a removable battery wasn't such a trivial thing to add. Even the position of the battery in the current iPhone design doesn't need to be changed: they just needed to provide a conector and latches. Heck, Apple didn't invent mobile phones, people been doing this since, like, forever. It wouldn't add much to the c
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Mooo (Score:4, Informative)
$15.. do it yourself. I have changed out the batteries in three IPods already.
Re:Mooo (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Mooo (Score:5, Funny)
(yes, it's a joke, but it will probably also be their defense)
Re:Mooo (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Is it really that much of a burden to resync your device? I'd prefer that they wipe down my device.
It protects both parties. I know that they're not perusing my personal documents, and Apple doesn't take any liability for whatever I've loaded onto my iPod. It comes back , I plug it in and iTunes resyncs it. That is pretty good for it just works.
$85.95 is unconscionable though.
Re: (Score:2)
Obviously they want you to buy a new Ipod, not fix the old one.
The batteries in my toothbrush died and opening it was extremely easy. Just set the brush on the charger base, twist, and out pops the "guts" of the brush. You can then remove the toxic NiCad batteries and dispose of them properly, while throwing the rest of the thing in the trash.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Beats me. I bought my only iPod without realizing the insane cost of battery replacement. When the battery failed after less than a year of low use, I spent a few bucks more than the battery replacement would have cost me and bought something non-Apple (twice the storage, three times the battery life, if I remember correctly). I have stayed away from Apple products ever since.
While there are stories of those with batteries that seem to last forever, the general feeling I get is that Apple keep marginalizing
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I guess you have never tried a Nokia E61 or, for that matter, the many Windows Smartphones where even if youy don't like mobile IE, there is always Opera.
Re:Mooo (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Mooo (Score:4, Insightful)
Wow, so instead of letting Apple replace the battery for free within the one year warranty, you bought a new device - yeah, you sure showed us what an clever, money-conscious guy you are.
He ended up spending 'a few bucks more' to get a device with twice the storage & three times the battery life.
Its called not throwing good money after bad.
Re: (Score:3)
and have the data wiped [...] and have to re sync everything
You're so cute. You do realize that that happens automatically, right? You plug in your refurbished device and while the new battery is charging, it gets everything put back just the way you had it before.
Re:Mooo (Score:5, Insightful)
While it may be a cash cow for the company, isn't an official battery replacement program a "good thing" environmentally?
Placing the responsibility to replace batteries on the corporation allows it to be monitored and regulated. Leaving battery replacement in the hands of users makes it easy to throw out the old battery with your weekly garbage collection. I have to be honest - I'm not sure what sort of battery programs are in my area and it seems like going out of my way considerably to find out. Besides, I doubt most people have any awareness of how its bad to dispose of batteries in the garbage... Until its made a priority on a large scale, what worth exists in wasting my time to do some small part?
Re:Mooo (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, and no.
While they can spin it very positively, the truth is, at that price you're better off buying a new player... and that's probably what they're hoping too (they are a business, after all...). And what do you do with your old player when you get a new one? ... chuck it. Very environmentally friendly.
If you want people to do the "right thing", you don't charge them through the nose to do it, you have to give them the fewest reasons *not* to do it... and in my book, an outrageous replacement price = reason not to replace.
Besides, when Apple had that massive battery recall a few years back, they sent my gf her new battery but with no way to return her old one (we're on Canada here). When she contacted them to ask how she could return it, they just responded "do whatever you want with it". Nice.
I agree about the lack of easily-accessible programs for recycling :( Our local enviro-coop has their own, but its not obvious...
Re: (Score:2)
Next I suppose you will tell me it's better to burn 5 gallons of gasoline/pollution, so I can give my flourescent light to the recyling center rather than just trash it.
Pass. Batteries are completely harmless in a landfill. The only exception to that is NiCad, so if your device is using NiMH or Li-Ion you can just toss it.
Re:Mooo (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
This is positive legislation. It is going to ensure that customers have cheaper and competitive ways to replace batteries.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Mooo (Score:4, Insightful)
This is positive legislation. It is going to ensure that customers have cheaper and competitive ways to replace batteries.
And just throw the old ones in the trash.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
A 'common or garden tool' for iPod battery replacement would be something like a screwdriver or Allen key.
Re: (Score:2)
I've opened an iPod with a putty knife and a credit card. Not really any harder to get those than a screwdriver or Allen key.
Maybe Apple could ship the little plastic tools the battery replacement companies ship with the batteries. There, now you have the tools you need included in the package. :)
Re: (Score:2)
We would say "garden variety" for "common"
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
"removable": yes. "replace":no.
Re: (Score:2)
Are you asking if the axe would be easily removable once it penetrates the relatively weak casing of a lithium powered battery and the resulting explosion lodges it in your forehead?
That depends, what type of rock would you consider your head to be made of? ;-)
Re: (Score:2)
Some Airliners also want smart phones to have battery removed during flight. Some smart phones have tendency to be turned on very easily that is why. Happened to me with Nokia 9300.
Also Apple themselves suggest laptop battery used to half and removed if it won't be used for a long time
http://www.apple.com/batteries/notebooks.html [apple.com]
I saw a clever Nokia salesman used the iPhone battery being non replaceable by user easily as first reason and showed Nokia batteries stacked behind him. I am sure he is thankful to
Re: (Score:2)
cash cow how? (Score:2)
I don't see how this would be a cash cow for Apple - they already replace batteries as often as they can. In fact, it's detrimental to the company since now people will simply replace batteries instead of buying a new iPod. In addition, converting their designs and manufacturing process will to meet this requirement will cost Apple dearly.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm actually quite surprised at Apple's decision to lock the batteries in the device. The only thing I can think of is planned obsolescence to spur more sales. Which would be a pretty sleazy thing to do. [Or maybe a pretty profitable thing to do.]
Re:cash cow how? (Score:5, Insightful)
Or it's a design thing. You know. No extra hinges, lines, anything.
Re: (Score:2)
Nah. My Insignia MP3 player has a removable battery, and it does not make the device any larger or uglier than the non-removable Ipod.
Re:cash cow how? (Score:5, Informative)
Could you please point me to the model you have? I can only find 4-8GB flash players. One review [mp3.com] even has It's bulky for a flash player. as a "The Bad".
I just went to Insignia's website and found 2 models. A 4GB MP3 [insignia-products.com] player and an 8GB Video/MP3 [insignia-products.com] player. (Aside from their website seemingly written by 2 completely different groups, both had different units, 4GB in metric, 8GB in English)
4GB
Dimensions:
15mm X 46mm X 102mm (.59" X 1.8" X 4.0")
Weight: 0.068 kg (2.4 oz)
8GB
Dimensions:
10.16mm X 40.65 mm X 83.83mm (0.4" X 1.6" X 3.3")
Weight: 0.060kg (2.1 oz.)
This is the specs for the current Nano (which comes in 8 or 16 GB).
Dimensions:
6.2mm X 38.7mm X 90.7mm (0.24" X 1.5" X 3.6")
Weight:
0.037 grams (1.3 ounces)
And here's a "big ole" iPod Classic. .140 kg (4.9 ounces)
Dimensions:
10.5 mm X 61.8 mm X 103.5 mm (0.41" X 2.4" X 4.1")
Weight:
So by "not making the device any larger" you mean making the device larger? Not to mention the for the difference between the Nano and the Insignia, you could go up to a Classic and have 15X the storage space.
Re: (Score:2)
they already replace batteries as often as they can.
I'm sure they do, since they charge 85 dollars to do it, according to some of the posters above.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I find it hard to believe EU (or any other) authorities will have the balls to stand up to Apple.
Apple isn't Microsoft, why would going against Apple be in any way brave?
Re: (Score:2)
Batteries are more like $15 to them...
Back handed protectionism (Score:4, Interesting)
This is the EU basically trying to protect its markets for its own cell phone makers. I would think Nokia might be pushing for a regulation like this.
Watch carefully! There will probably be some nice sounding safety or environmental standard coming out of Washington somewhere that is the tit for this tat.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Back handed protectionism (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
It's just that the best known device with a non-removable battery is the iPod and the next best known is the iPhone ...
My MP3 Player has a removable battery so does every phone I have ever owned, come to think about it I cannot think of a single battery powered device I have every used that the battery could not be removed (a few had warranty void stickers...) except the iPhone and iPod !
Removable batteries mean that if the battery life is shorter than the product life it can be replaced rather than filling
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Back handed protectionism (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
bullshit. every other cellphone has removable batteries and the european iphone market is very weak anyway.
iPhone??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
So you know of other devices besides iPod's and iTouch's and iPhones that don't already meet this directive?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
My Sansa E2?? doesn't have an easy popout battery that I can find. I haven't looked close enough but it has a few screws on the back.
To some people what's the difference between a tiny screwdriver and a case splitter for the iPod. If I did get inside it's not like the battery is something I could go down to Best Buy and get. So how is it any more easily replaced?
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
The Logitech diNovo Edge keyboard is, as far as I've been able to tell, another device with the same problem.
Of course, that's also the reason I haven't bought one. There's simply no way I'm throwing $200 at a keyboard with the battery longevity of li-ion tech.
So I certainly welcome this directive; it'll save me the trouble of having to avoid certain products I'd otherwise buy.
Re: (Score:2)
My entire household is almost litterally filled with devices contain rechargable batteries. From my toothbrush and razor to my wireless headphones and clocks. Even my PC has rechargeable batteries in it.
Want to guess how many of these, other than my iPod, aren't designed to be user removeable? Zero.
Granted, my toothbrush and razor both are designed so that the process of removing the battery 'breaks' the device. But both have clearly marked instructions indicating this should be done before throwing them aw
Re: (Score:2)
My last two toothbrushes are not user replaceable.
I don't think that my wife's old MP3 has a user replaceable battery.
Sure, the majority are. But, this is clearly a grab for add revenue by making the iPhone the primary part of the article and the headline vs. the actual regulations.
Re: (Score:2)
Please note however, I'm making a distinction between user replaceable and user removeable. My razor and toothbrush are not designed to have the battery replaced. But they are designed to have the battery removed when the user is ready to dispose of the item.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Most companies that produce 'disposable' level items like an electic toothbrush do design in a way to remove the battery before disposing. As I mentioned in my first post, this DOES destroy the item. They've done their work to ensure that you won't be replacing the battery.
However whether they expect people to actually follow through or if they are just doing it because they know that they'll receive bad PR from environmental groups if they don't would be up to you to decide.
Regardless, Apple is in the mino
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
400 recharges (Score:2, Insightful)
Apparently after 400 recharges the battery is down to 80% of its life (I don't know how they've tested this). http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=327614 [macrumors.com]
Given I've had to charge the battery twice a day on occasions and if you attach to a computer for itunes then that counts as a recharge, you can see how this would run out quicker than a normal battery.
Then again, you replace your phone every 18 months, why would you want a new battery when you're going to get rid of it soon?
Re:400 recharges (Score:5, Informative)
Fractional charges only count as fractional charges. If your iphone is at 80% and you plug it into your computer and it charges up to 100% that is only 1/5th of a charge. You can do that 5 more times before you have even used a single recharge.
Re: (Score:2)
I need coffee.
you can do that 4 more times, for a total of 5 times, before using a single recharge.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, it's a little better than that. The "cycle life vs. DoD*" curve is not linear.
*DoD = Depth of Discharge. LiIons at 80% DoD get a "cycle life" of about 500. 80% seems to be pretty much the standard, to balance cycle life and volume+mass, but the improvement you get from reducing DoD is better than linear for a big range. (and the pain you get from increasing DoD is also worse than linear over a big range. This is one of the reasons that "deep cycling" a.k.a. battery conditioning is almost alwa
Re: (Score:2)
Apparently after 400 recharges the battery is down to 80% of its life
Li-Ion batteries are not so much affected by recharges as they are by temperature and sheer age. On the plus side that means you're going to get a lot out of it if you use it a lot.
On the negative side it also means your battery is going to go bad in 18-24 months even if you only charge it once per month. (unless you keep it in the freezer, which is the appropriate storage for unused li-ion batteries)
Then again, you replace your phone ever
I agree on principle, but: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:I agree on principle, but: (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Why apple doesn't do this... (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple is obsessed with thin packaging. Look at the iPhone, nano, or iPod touch. A removable battery would add a good 2mm of thickness, which may not sound like much, but thats a good 30% increase in thickness.
Re:Why apple doesn't do this... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Isn't it possible that Steve Jobs loves both good design AND profits?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
So when that fine third party battery doesn't operate within spec and your iDevice starts acting funny are you going to give Apple bad press for making shoddy devices?
Will Joe Schmoe? Well, a battery is a battery, so it must be Apple that's the problem...
Re: (Score:2)
Actually, you CAN get aftermarket batteries and replace em yourself. It just takes skill.
And there are plenty of third party companies which will replace your battery as well.
Re: (Score:2)
Bob
Re:Why apple doesn't do this... (Score:4, Informative)
I believe it. 10 years of Apple products is more than convincing:
iPod->iPod touch (notice how thin it got)
iBook->MacBook Air (notice how small/thin it got)
And you use the word "anticompetitive" in a funny way. You make it sound like Apple's business motive is making money off battery replacements. Apple sells iPods/Macs/iPhones, not batteries. The battery is an incidental, and probably even less profitable than the iTunes store.
The thin design has multiple benefits for Apple:
Higher product density (therefore higher profits per cubic foot storage)
Smaller products are cheaper to ship (lower costs per cubic foot shipping)
Smaller products require less packaging (lower cost per unit)
Smaller products require less material (lower cost per unit)
So there are many reasons beyond design or anticompetitive to make things small/thin
A good 30% increase in thickness... (Score:2)
A removable battery would add a good 2mm of thickness, which may not sound like much, but thats a good 30% increase in thickness.
I agree, it would be worth it, it wouldn't be a bad 30% increase in thickness.
Removable vs Replacable (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't get confused, what the EU are after is a removable battery that can be safely disposed of. It is not the same as replacable.
ie, it might be perfectly acceptable to have the battery fitted in such a way it can easily be ripped off the surface mount on the motherboard for disposal but in the process destroying the ipod/iphone.
What we (the ipod using public) have wanted is a user-replaceable battery - but we're unlikely to get this because not only does it add to the cost, complexity and size of the product, it also more importantly makes it less easy for Steve to sell us a newer ipod in 2 years time when the battery is still working but at that annoying "just not quite enough battery to last me the day" level.
Re: (Score:2)
Carrying that distinction further would be to have standard battery sizes so that one's 3 year-old phone isn't orphaned by an unavailable replacement battery (or aftermarket replacements that are low quality or outrageously expensive).
That, plus a standardized charging socket (like mini USB) for phones could make a positive economic and environmental impact.
Re: (Score:2)
What about Laptops? (Score:2)
Wouldn't this also cover laptops as well?
although most do have replaceable batteries, i can think of a few that do not, and more and more appear to be heading that way in the "compact notebook" realm.
Two Screws (Score:2)
Looking at the 3G iPhone I see two screw near the connector. Surely unscrewing those two screws would allow you to open the case to replace the battery? Or am I being overly optimistic? Has anyone even attempted to see how complicated it is?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Yes with qualifications. Yes. Yes.
Short summary,previous to the 3g it required using a sodering iron near a plastic bag filled with highly flamable liquid. The 3g's battery isn't hard sodered however, so it's slightly easier.
Battery recycling (Score:3, Insightful)
As far as extended warranty programs, most are a rip off. The apple programs, however, at least on the pro laptops and the iphone, have shown value to me. These are expensive pieces of gear, and even 20% over a few years is not out of line. It takes care of the battery, and any damage. When you consider that ATT will charge you $175 in the US to break a contract, the $69 applecare is put into perspective, though it does not cover loss.
In general I would hate to see laws that required or forbade removable batteries. What I would like to see is more retailers forced to take back electronics that they sell, perhaps with a small discount if you buy an equivalent device. Straight money back might encourage theft. Non replaceable batteries are not an environmental problem, they are an engineering decision and customer preference. The envronmental problem is that consumers throw batteries and electronics away because there is no easy way to dispose of them properly.
Re: (Score:2)
What I would like to see is more retailers forced to take back electronics that they sell, perhaps with a small discount if you buy an equivalent device.
Why? Why must people be excused from every and any possibility of being responsible for their actions? So I will have to pay more for my portable devices because other people are to lazy to be environmentally safe and friendly? Then again, what should I expect, people are whining about how others should pay for their health care regardless of their personal bad habits from overeating to smoking and drinking, or better yet all three. People are ever so quick to burden others with their responsibilities its no wonder the generation of the 40s is looked back up on as one of the last great ones. No more asking ourselves what we can do for ourselves or other, its not exclusively asking others to do for ourselves.
I want the choice of replacing the battery myself. In the case of my Touch I do not understand why I must be without it for three days for something as simple as a battery. I use it for email, net, and more. That is a major inconvenience to say the least
It's all about the Zune (Score:3, Funny)
How do you know they are not targeting the Zune?
Looks like another anti Microsoft move by the EU to me.
Where's my tinfoil hat when I need it.....
Replaceable batteries are bad for the environment (Score:3, Interesting)
Replaceable batteries most likely end up in the trash and then the landfill and if a battery is replaceable the manufacturer of the device will most likely look for the cheapest source for those batteries since they assume that the consumer will simply buy a replacement placing the extra cost of a longer lasting battery on the consumer.
Battery embedding should be illegal... (Score:2)
... I mean seriously, it prevents battery standards from emerging by embedding the battery into the device itself. Small flash MP3 players have been using AAA and AA for a while, that is one thing that made me ditch hard disk based mp3 players was the lack of easily replaceable batteries.
Re: (Score:2)
It's easy to make a pacemaker with a removable battery. It's making people with removable pacemakers that's the bitch.
Re: (Score:2)
"End of life" when referring to pacemakers is a bit of a different matter from that of an iPod.
Re: (Score:2)
Ha ha, but my Grandfather had to have his pacemaker replaced because it got to the end of its useful life before he did.
Re: (Score:2)
Watches have much smaller batteries, and even the cheapest $4 walmart watch lasts longer than a cellphone, so you throw away fewer watches.