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War Brewing on the Inexpensive Laptop Front
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Mon May 05, 2008 03:34 PM
from the cheaper-just-means-more-toys-faster dept.
from the cheaper-just-means-more-toys-faster dept.
The Christian Science Monitor has an interesting look at the war brewing on the inexpensive laptop front. With everything from the Eee PC to the OLPC, the trend in slimming and trimming seems to be continuing. "The market segment is so new it doesn't have a name yet or even an agreed-upon set of specifications. Intel, the chipmaker, calls the category "netbooks," recognizing that much of what people do on their laptops involves going on the Net. The new machines are also being called ultra-low-cost PCs, mininotebooks, or even mobile Internet gadgets. In appearance, they have the familiar clamshell design, but they're smaller, with seven- to 10-inch screens. They offer full keyboards (albeit with smaller keys) and weigh less than three pounds. Perhaps most important, the majority cost less than $500 - some as little as $299. Intel says it expects more than 50 million of these netbooks to be sold by 2011. It's introduced a tiny, low-power processor to run them called Atom, which puts 47 million transistors on a chip about the size of a penny."
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Palm or PocketPC (Score:3, Interesting)
what more do they need?
I bet you can get every TYPE of application they need on one of those.
So it wont run MS office or possibly even open office. But do they need much more than a notepad with spellcheck?
are you kidding? (Score:5, Insightful)
Fortunately, it's not an either/or choice: Linux actually scales really nicely from mobile to desktop devices.
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Re:Palm or PocketPC (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Palm or PocketPC (Score:5, Insightful)
I have an Eee PC for work. It has GCC, Python, Emacs, and the PostgreSQL client programs installed. You say "notepad with spellcheck". I say "tiny development system that lets me telecommute from my backyard on sunny days".
For me (and apparently millions of others), the Eee PC is the sweet spot for portable computing. It's small enough that I don't think twice about dragging it along wherever I'm going, and yet big enough that I'm not giving up anything. No "portable OS" will ever match the flexibility it offers.
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And it will get better with ARM (Score:4, Interesting)
Ubuntu has got into the early stages of doing ARM distros, so ARM based systems with Ubuntu ease of use are potentially just around the corner.
Linux is still emerging as the primary portable OS. Unlike WinCE (which is a very nobbled thing that tries to look like Windows), ARM Linux is the real thing - using the same kernel code as any other Linux.
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It makes sense (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It makes sense (Score:5, Interesting)
My Eee PC with Slackware 12.1 is probably the best thing I could have hoped for. It just does everything a UNIX Admin needs and is very compact... now I have more room for my Frappacino's and O-Scope in my bag!
Gotta be thankful Technology is getting to the point where smaller is becoming affordable.
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Re:It makes sense (Score:5, Funny)
If you're talking about modern laptops, I'd like to suggest that you talk to a doctor. No grown adult should consider a 5 lb, 10"x16" chunk of plastic either "big" or "heavy", and it shouldn't require "lugging".
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Re:It makes sense (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, so you say pack it in your carry on? Yep, have done that too. Trust me you can feel the weight difference (part of it is the weight distribution of the larger laptops) when you're climbing stairs or up escalators or lifting it to the overheard space on the place
And it is not like I am a small out of shape guy. Any weight held or carried for a period of time gets heavy.
I love my 2.8 lb thinkpad. I would NEVER go back to the former Compaq 5-6lbs model EVER for my usage on the road.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I have a $500 full size laptop, and I don't find it hard to carry around by any means. It's has a 14.1 inch screen and is pretty light and pretty thin.
I agree that $500 can buy a lot of value these days. For example, Dell's $500 base Vostro 1400 [dell.com] (with Core 2 based Celeron) can do a lot more than an Eee PC.
but neither one can just be shoved in your pocket as you leave the house. Both of them require some kind of backpack or shoulder bag to bring with you. So as far as I see it, the ultraportables, don't really offer much in terms of portability, because you can' just put them in your pocket, and a standard laptop lets you get your work done much easier.
This is where I disagree with your opinion. When carrying your laptop around, the size/weight difference between an Eee PC and a 5-lb 14" laptop is huge. At 8.9" x 6.5" x 1.4" and approximately 2 lbs, the Eee PC is comparable in "footprint" to a DVD box [anandtech.com] (just a little longer). I think many users can just carry an Eee PC around in one hand. Unlike a 14"
Blast from the past! Handheld PC - H/PC - Palmtop (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember the NEC Mobile Pro, or the HP Jornada? Practically the same formfactor, reborn.
Re:Blast from the past! Handheld PC - H/PC - Palmt (Score:3, Interesting)
I use a hx4700 right now and the only two issues stopping it from replacing my laptop for 90% of what I do are - 640x480 screens quit being useful about 12 years ago, and the on-screen touch keyboard at that re
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
To the road-warrior business traveler, maybe.
The platform is still pretty useless to the application developer, the artist, the musician, t
Limit is in the I/O (Score:5, Insightful)
Now the limiting factor in usability of those devices seem to be not the processing power, but human interaction.
Both the keyboard and the screen are inevitably small, which makes typing and reading a challenge.
Some say that the future is in portable projectors and virtual keyboards, but that doesn't seem to be the ultimate solution - you need two flat surfaces and some headroom for those, which seems not to be the case for instance in an airplane.
I think challenges like efficient voice commands, or even brain waves (aka NIA) are the solution for input.
For the output again a direct interface to the nerves or to the eye, or else, there will still be need for full sized peripherals, so it won't matter how small can the computers themselves get.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Voice commands are interesting. This does need an improvement in technology to really be viable still, but that probably will happen. Then we just need to have someone come up with a really good verbal UI. Yeah, it will
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
That's why I always wanted one of these [pcworld.com]. It was lightweight like an EEE or whatever, but it had a 10" screen, reasonable keyboard, and was really thin (if it's not thinner than the MacBook Air, it was at least close). There's a lower limit to the length and width if you want good usability, but you can always make it thinner and lighter...
Aside from the slow processor and the fact that it wasn't a Tablet PC, it was almost perfect. I wish they'd bring it back with those deficiencies removed -- even at $1000
Meanwhile : Foldable keyboard (Score:4, Informative)
Even since my PalmIIIc period, I've been using foldable keyboard (by think outside and the like).
Note, I'm not speaking about the clamshell ones [cnetfrance.fr], nor the rollable ones [computeractive.co.uk].
I'm speaking about a box which has almost the same size as the Palm it self. It unfolds like an accordion in 4 parts. Once you've laid it flat, you slide the keys from the outer parts and you get a complete Desktop size ~90 keyboard (only lacks a keypad). This "sliding" locks the keyboard in open position, so you don't need a full flat place to used (compared to laser+infrared virtual keyboards) and you get actual tactile feed-back (not virtual keys. Real keys, which have the same size as those from your desktop).
Did all my note-taking at the university using such systems.
The best part is, now with the advent of common standard communication protocols like bluetooth, they produce one single model that fits for any bt-enabled PDA/smartphone/whatever (unlike back then, when they had to provide 1 model for every different proprietary connector that the market has come up with, and you had to rebuy a new one each time you changed your PDA).
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Full laptop is better (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Full laptop is better (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Is running Linux really a problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
Is this really a problem? I think that most of the people who don't know Linux aren't really aware of what Windows is either. They'll probably call any windowing system "Windows". As long as there are pictures to click on and it opens windows, it will be of little or no concern.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I think that most of the people who don't know Linux aren't really aware of what Windows is either
You are right... but wrong. They may not know what Windows is, but they do know that they use it at work, their current computer, and they know that "windows is on everything" and "windows just works".
Yes they may not understand what an OS is, but they know Windows and they know where the start menu is and where hearts and solitare is. They also know that Windows is the old fogey next to the cool Mac guy.
However there are many computer friendly people that have no idea what Linux is. It could be a
Re:Is running Linux really a problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Linux: Year of the... 'Netbook'? (Score:5, Interesting)
Should be interesting to see how this impacts the OS playing field...
OLPC Redux (Score:5, Insightful)
Lately Negroponte decided it should go with windows instead of the original open source OS, which prompted Bender to resign. And there is a general sense that they have sold out.
For a while it looked promising, I wanted to pick one up. Thought it would be great for camping. Get some PDF books and read it on the go in the open sunlight with a water resistant clam shell and a hand crank power supply. This seemed much better than a Kindle to me.
There was even a lot of DIY home brew hacks going on at first. People using it along with Arduino for some neat applications.
Alas... why must everyone sell out.
Re:OLPC Redux (Score:4, Insightful)
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UMPCs (Score:5, Informative)
Re:UMPCs (Score:4, Insightful)
These netbooks are a hybrid of the laptop and UMPC concept -- keep shrinking the laptop until the point that the price would start going up, then cut back the processing power & memory until it is the minimum to run their target apps (web browser, email, productivity apps).
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Last year, UMPC units didn't sell a million units. That's why nobody is in any hurry to call their product a "UMPC." That, and its a stupid name that almost appears to be designed to prevent sales
Netbook? (Score:5, Funny)
A small laptop may be more powerful and allow you to install other applications without limitations, however if you don't always carry it with you it doesn't really matter.
If it can't fit in my pocket, I'm not carrying it around "just in case".
Re:Netbook? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Low power is great, but I want a big screen (Score:3, Insightful)
My problem is that I want a full sized screen. Checking email and going through pdf's, doc's, and spreadsheets, I find I do a lot better with a big screen (or two) than even a normal laptop screen.
Do we think this is going to be taken care of by having docking stations all over the place, or will I need to wait for roll-out, flexible screens?
I don't understand this (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I don't understand this (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm constantly amazed at the difficulty some people have comprehending that not everyone wants exactly the machine they do.
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Not just the laptop front (Score:3, Insightful)
Give me a portable Internet terminal (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm thinking a laptop with no HD, no CD, but a flash big enough to hold three copies of either DamnSmallLinux or ThinStation. Copy 1 would be read-only from the factory. Copy 3 would be the normal copy and would be a copy of copy 1 when the machine is first powered on. Copy 2 would be the "last known good" version, a copy of copy 3 made while booted to the BIOS setup screen.
I'm thinking maybe 256MB of flash and another 256-512MB of ordinary RAM.
The whole thing should be well under $300.
Re:intel created this market (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:More interested in the education than the net (Score:4, Informative)
If your goal is to get your brother interested in programming, don't make him use a tiny monitor and keyboard, get him a low-end desktop PC with a real keyboard and acceptable screen. If you're on a budget, you can pick up a used monitor for almost nothing and spend everything on the box.
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Licensing fees fail as price drops to $200. (Score:3, Interesting)
IT fails M$. Today, you can buy a laptop for $300 that works great for what you want or the same thing for $400 that runs XP poorly. The choice is obvious and it's going to become more obvious when it's $200 vrs $300 and the performance and feature gap widens. M$ only dominates because they have preloads and subscription or begware replacements won't work. No one is going to buy a $200 computer that's coin operated or advert crippled when they can have the same thing without those problems. Face it, it's
Re:Licensing fees fail as price drops to $200. (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re: $300 Vista laptop. (Score:3, Interesting)
See twitter? No need to accuse people of stealing just
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Or which fence he bought it from.
Re:Licensing fees fail as price drops to $200. (Score:5, Informative)
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Damn right.
The I-Appliance BBS
http://www.linux-hacker.net/cgi-bin/UltraBoard/UltraBoard.pl [linux-hacker.net]
is full of interesting hacks on the leftover hardware from companies with "sell a crippled computer" business models. People want small fully capable computers, not broken shit that fits someone else's idea of what they should want.
Re:Only one loser. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes.... for now. It should be obvious by now that OLPC insisted on an x86 compatible machine, even though it raised the cost and lowered battery life, because they realized doing a deal with Microsoft would eventually be a requirement for political reasons. Same with Asus and the eeepc, plus they were building it in a joint venture with Intel.
Yes, any $250+ machine will probably just wave the Linux flag as a bargining tool to get really good prices (and keep XP available, etc) on Windows.
But none of that is interesting longterm. I'm waiting for the less than $200 pricepoint to open up. Moore's Law says it will get here soon enough. Even better is when somebody builds one based on an ARM all in one solution that won't be able to run Windows regardless how much incentive or political pressure Microsoft brings to bear.
It should be obvious though that there exists a pricepoint that Microsoft can't compete at without risking canibalizing their existing monopoly. That market niche will be the wedge that will eventually lever em out of market dominance.
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Re:XP Capable. (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Why are these machines so expensive?
Because price only scales up with features, not down.
Re:Why so expensive? (Score:5, Informative)
In the case of these ultra-portables, a significant fraction of the cost also comes from the engineering and components required to make them so small and lightweight. You can of course get a clunky 200MHz laptop for real cheap (old model off eBay, for example), but it will not be as light or slick as the Eee PC or others.
The prices will probably keep dropping. But frankly I'm amazed at how cheap these ultra-portables already are: compare the performance, size, and price to what was available even 5 years ago and see how far we've come!
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Re:Standards...what the hell! (Score:4, Interesting)
I choose the best distro for the application:
OpenWRT for my APs - MIPS
Angstrom for my Zaurus - ARM
Debian for my desktops and laptop - Intel/AMD
DSL for my ancient laptop - Intel
Homebrew distro for a dev board I'm working on - ARM
And you know what? They all network, they all talk to each other, they all authenticate against the main server, and they all cooperate nicely. It's not about where some file is, or about the package manager, but about inter-operability. And they all run the same apps more-or-less in more-or-less the same way.
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Re:I'll keep my iPhone. (Score:4, Informative)
And as for Flash, the removal of nuisance ads from the web pretty much makes up for the loss of being able to see the handful of visualization elements done in SWF.
I would like to have a BT profile to use a slim keyboard with the iPhone for writing while traveling. That would make a great combination that's much lighter than a typical laptop and more practical than the joke UMPC/tiny laptops that try to do everything by doing it all poorly.
TFA seemed to be an ad for Intel's Atom, which I'm not convinced will uproot the existing mobile dominance of ARM processors, particularly since the only real need for x86 compatible chips in mobile devices is to support Microsoft's inability to get Windows to run on other hardware.
Given that the most interesting and successful small devices are running Linux or Apple's OS X, the need for x86 processors in that space is not at all obvious. Why wait for Intel to catch up when literally hundreds of ARM licensees are now shipping 3 billion parts a year?
Also note that Intel lost something like $5 billion pouring money into the StrongARM business it got from DEC (and rebranded as XScale) before handing it to Marvell for a mere $600 M. If it couldn't beat TI in ARM processors, how can it expect to beat ARM with an inferior and more complicated processor design?
ARM, x86 Chip Makers Fight to Ride Mobile Growth [roughlydrafted.com]
Will Apple Rescue Intel's Silverthorne? [roughlydrafted.com]
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