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Apple Losing Touchscreen War
Posted by
samzenpus
on Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:18 AM
from the what-about-the-battle dept.
from the what-about-the-battle dept.
An anonymous reader writes "While Apple's iPhone may be the first device most people call to mind when they think of a touch interface mobile, the 3G device is still lagging behind in the touchscreen shifting stakes — it's getting a sound thrashing from Moto and Samsung, who've cornered the Asian market where touchscreens are popular for their ability to let users input Asian languages without all that fiddly Qwerty nonsense."
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Submission: Apple losing touchscreen war by Anonymous Coward
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Steve will fix it, don't worry. (Score:5, Funny)
Steve Jobs is not a human with a reality distortion field, Steve Jobs is a reality distortion field with a human body inside.
Re:Steve will fix it, don't worry. (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
one day all screens will have touch/stylus input (Score:5, Interesting)
Hopefully before that day comes, Apple will start making tablets again --- I really need a replacement for my Newton MessagePad and my Fujitsu Stylistic is just too big to travel w/ me constantly as the MP did (and my Sony PRS-505 ebook reader does --- something that size, w/ pen input would be perfect).
William
Re:one day all screens will have touch/stylus inpu (Score:5, Interesting)
It would be perfect for college students taking notes and reading e-textbooks and a myriad of other applications.
Somewhat offtopic, and forgive me for being ignorant, by why havent tablets caught on? I'd buy one in a heartbeat if it Just Worked(tm). Most of the "tablets" out there are just laptops with flippable screens == too much complexity and too many fragile moving parts.
I usually can't stand Macs but if Apple were the first to do a simple, elegant, full-screened "iClipboard", I'd be all over it.
Forget the iPhone, it's UI is way too goddamned slow for a mobile device.
Parent
Re:one day all screens will have touch/stylus inpu (Score:5, Insightful)
Looks like you just answered your own question there...
Parent
Re:one day all screens will have touch/stylus inpu (Score:5, Insightful)
There are "slates", which are only the screen and a stylus, but text input is very annoying. Think of the amount of text you might enter in a single day, or just even in a single slashdot post. Would you rather write it with a stylus or type it?
Parent
Re:one day all screens will have touch/stylus inpu (Score:5, Insightful)
Which brings up an interesting question. Up until now Western languages have had a huge advantage for computers since keyboards can have one button per letter because of the small alphabet and context-free characters. It is really easy and fast to input characters to form words using dedicated buttons.
Now with accurate, sensitive touch screens, will word-based writing systems like Chinese actually be better suited now for writing?
Parent
Re:one day all screens will have touch/stylus inpu (Score:4, Informative)
The kanji is a little faster, but ni-ho-n-go is still 13 strokes.
Parent
Re:one day all screens will have touch/stylus inpu (Score:5, Informative)
in Japanese, the word "Japanese" is "Ni-hon-go" 3 'characters' (but I believe there's rules when joining these characters together) vs the English "J-a-p-a-n-e-s-e". I'm not sure how many Japanese characters there are though, since they get joined together to define a word (1 character can be 2 syllables).
There are 1945 jouyou kanji [wikipedia.org], which are required to be known to achieve a normal level of litteracy.
Why we haven't already developed input (we may have, but a Japanese co-worker used an English keyboard and through key tricks typed in her native language that way) that uses the syllables from eastern languages is beyond me. The speed and efficiency would be nice, although we sort of already do type in words "WTF" "LOL" "BRB".
The way it works is that you type each of the sounds that represent the word(ni, ho, n and go in your example), then you convert these sounds to kanji. Sometimes the conversion requires no choice from the user, and sometimes it does(such as ki, which could mean tree, spirit, etc.)
I believe a similar system is used for Chinese.
Remember though that predictive analysis can be used, in the same way that predictive text analysis can be used to enter words on cellphones. For example, when using handwritten input, potential characters can be filtered based on the type of strokes that have been written so far, as there is a certain stroke order for characters. There is also a potential for predictive analysis, as multiple-character words are fixed combinations. For example, if I write hana(flower), perhaps the next character will be ya(shop, thus turning the word into florist) or bi(fire, thus turning the word into fireworks).
But the real question is... which eastern language is the best suited for word input?
Good question. :P
Parent
Re:one day all screens will have touch/stylus inpu (Score:5, Informative)
Okay, here's how hit works:
Yes, you could type in hiragana/katakana, but I know exactly no one who does. I don't know why. I thought I was being a lazy gaijin by typing in Roman characters, but then I found out that only a few serious secretaries or whatnot actually use the kana keyboard, which is unfortunate, I think, because it about doubles the number of keystrokes required, but whatever. I don't have to learn a new keyboard to type in Japanese.
So let's type "Nihongo" in a Japanese word processor, on a computer:
1) Type "n" -- "n" shows up on the screen /ni/. This is the sound, not the kanji.
/ho/
/n/, and "g" shows up
/go/.
2) Type "i" -- The "n" disappears and is changed to the hiragana character for the sound
3) Type "h" -- "h" shows up.
4) Type "o" -- changes to the character for
5) Type "n" -- "n" shows up
6) Type "g" -- The previous "n" changes to the character for
7) Type "o" -- The "g" disappears and turns into the character for
Now, all of this is underlined. That means it's not really set yet. So we hit space bar.
The characters for the sounds /ni-ho-n-go/ change to the kanji for the word that means Japanese language, as that is the most likely candidate for that string of sounds. If there were some other word with the same reading (I can't think of any) that I used frequently, that would be the computer's first guess.
If we need a different kanji, we hit the space bar again. If it's still not right, we hit it again and a little menu comes up that we can select from.
This is how it has worked for at least 10 years; before that, I don't know.
You actually don't have to convert to kanji after every word. If you just keep typing, it'll start converting behind you, to the most likely kanji. I find this dangerous, however, because you don't pay as much attention and you end up with gibberish sometimes. I tend to do a whole phrase at a time before hitting spacebar.
For cellphones, Japanese is already a lot easier to input than English. --So much so that my gaijin friends and I usually text in Japanese. Because the syllabary is organized by leading consonant and then following vowel (i.e. "ka" "ki" "ku" "ke" "ko"), you just tap that key until you get the sound you want (the "2" key for the /k/ sounds) and it starts predicting right away. Not just words, but entire phrases.
If, for example, I tap "1" twice for /i/, it comes up with the sentence "Ima doko," which means "where are you now?" --A very common thing to text to someone you're meeting.
I don't know how it works for Chinese, but I suspect it is similar. I am very suspicious about the claims of the summary that Asians, presumably with their wacky writing systems, need many keys for their impenetrable Oriental scribblings. But all I really know well is Japanese, and we do fine over here with QWERTY, and even handle the number pad as an input device better than alphabetic languages.
Parent
Re:one day all screens will have touch/stylus inpu (Score:5, Interesting)
My biggest issue with writing on touch screens is the lack of friction/traction. Since a stylus on touch screen is real smooth, I have a harder time controlling my writing as opposed to when I use a pen or pencil on a piece of paper.
Parent
Re:one day all screens will have touch/stylus inpu (Score:5, Informative)
Get the nifty felt-type like nib from Wacom and put that in your stylus for a more paper-like experience (if you have a glass screen on your tablet).
William
Parent
Re:one day all screens will have touch/stylus inpu (Score:5, Interesting)
They have caught on in niche markets. Last two times I went for surgery at a relatively brand new place all the nurses had tablets. Those 100 forms you had to fill out authorizing surgery were all digital. You could read through them and sign at the bottom.
All the XRay machines at their office are digital. Everything gets dumped into a central server. When I went into the consult rooms the doctors walked in with tablets and reviewed the xrays right there, no more having to hand off the big negatives.
Doctors wrote prescriptions on the pad and they printed off out front.
But as others have pointed out, I wouldn't have wanted to post this note on slashdot using a stylus.
Parent
Re:one day all screens will have touch/stylus inpu (Score:4, Interesting)
The Nokia internet tablets are promising, but not beefy enough on memory. Give me a model with 512 megs of memory instead of 128, and then I'll take it seriously.
I am keeping my eyes on them regardless, since Nokia bought out Trolltech/QT and KDE 4 packages are now available for them.
Parent
Re:one day all screens will have touch/stylus inpu (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Unleash the Fanbois! (Score:4, Funny)
"Call" back in a year (Score:5, Informative)
Not even remotely comparable figures. iPhones aren't even being sold in places like CHINA, Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc. They've only been selling in some other countries for a month or two (Singapore, India).
So if the iPhone has 20% of the OVERALL Asian market, it must be COMPLETELY DOMINATING the few (1?) market it's been in for any length of time: Japan.
Time to buy more Apple Stock.
Parent
Apple is a niche player? (Score:5, Insightful)
For some background, I'm in IT and I work almost exclusively on Microsoft products and groan all you want but I'm a fan of theirs. I recently wanted to buy a smart phone. Mostly, something that was good at general web surfing, reading email and more. I saw my friends' iPhones and it was exactly what I was looking for but I have a natural anti-Apple bias so I didn't get one.
Then I started a search for a phone that met the requirements I have that didn't have an Apple on the back of it. Last Friday, I eliminated the final contender (AT&T Tilt) and gave up and bought an iPhone 3G.
It's not perfect, but it is amazingly good. I've yet to see a Windows Mobile device come close to it. The Samsung Omnia and Nokia Tube mentioned in the article don't appear to be available and to be honest, I didn't realize the other Windows Mobile devices sucked until I held them in my hand.
Does anyone know of a Windows Mobile device that matches the iPhone in web surfing? I'd love to hear about it.
Re:Apple is a niche player? (Score:5, Insightful)
If web surfing is such a high priority for you, you are not looking for a smart phone, you are looking for an iPhone.
Pick almost any other smart phone feature and put it head-to-head against the iPhone and the iPhone loses.
Parent
Re:Apple is a niche player? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Pick almost any other smart phone feature and put it head-to-head against the iPhone and the iPhone loses."
This was a more defensible stance before the app store got under swing....
it seemed ridiculous that my Palm was a better To Do and journaler than my iPhone, but Appigo's Todo and Twitteriffic now make it the best device I've owned.
Probably the keyboard isn't fantastic for stuff that involves a lot of symbols, but in combination w/ its word recognition I can practically touch type.
This device is amazing.
Parent
Re:Apple is a niche player? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you don't have proper Internet on your phone by now, I really don't think you have a right to call it a "smart" phone.
The technology is there, the computing horsepower is there, and some phones have had it for a while. There's really no excuse at this point.
If you can't install arbitrary applications on your phone by now, I really don't think you have a right to call it a "smart" phone.
The technology is there, the computing horsepower is there, and some phones have had it for a while. There's really no excuse at this point.
Parent
Re:Apple is a niche player? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you can't install arbitrary applications on your phone by now, I really don't think you have a right to call it a "smart" phone.
Oh please. All religious dogma aside, the 3000+ apps available through Apple's App Store more than qualify the iPhone as a "smart" phone. Sure, you have to pay $99, and Apple has rejected 3 apps so far so they must be evil, but all in all it's one of the cheapest, easiest-to-approach development systems for any mobile provider. And if you can't find some way to make $99/year on the App Store (or if you really want to keep everything free, open a lemonade stand on your street corner while developing on your laptop) then I don't have a lot of respect for your business acumen.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Disclaimer: I use and like Vista for my laptop and gaming, it's just a joke people.
Re:Apple is a niche player? (Score:4, Interesting)
Does anyone know of a Windows Mobile device that matches the iPhone in web surfing? I'd love to hear about it.
There isn't any, opera on WM is pretty good, WebKit on S60 is pretty good, but none is as usable as Safari on iPhone.
I do software development for mobile phones for a living, we have hundreds of different phones for testing purposes. None of them comes even close to the iPhone.
As for Moto and Samsung, they make really, really crappy devices. Motorola devices are just underpowered, and most API's aren't accesible by 3rd party developers. Samsung devices are full of bugs, one even weirder than another. For example: on certain Samsung devices only odd attempts at opening a socket connection work (1st try succeeds, 2nd fails, 3rd succeeds), on some the bluetooth stack is broken (you can do a scan, you can connect, but you cannot detect a disconnect, your read will block forever without an exception). The list goes on and on and on.
Also, not one of Samsungs devices seems to be running the same software as any other model, some bugs appear on several devices, but every single device has it's own combination of bugs and strange behaviour.
Apple's phone and SDK may not be perfect, but it's way better than anything on any other platform, including .NET compact framework.
Parent
Re:Apple is a niche player? (Score:4, Informative)
As of Tuesday, it has a mic jack and a speaker. Apple has already said there will be Wi-Fi VoIP applications.
If you're always in a Wi-Fi environment and have a 2G touch, you may rarely need a phone anymore.
Parent
Re:Apple is a niche player? (Score:4, Interesting)
If you're always in a Wi-Fi environment
That's a big if. One of the biggest reasons that I carry a phone is for roadside emergencies.
Parent
Re:I'm surprised you bought an iPhone based on req (Score:4, Insightful)
I think this post sums up the term "fanboi" nicely.
Parent
Re:I'm surprised you bought an iPhone based on req (Score:4, Insightful)
"I think this post sums up the term "fanboi" nicely."
No, it really didn't... I don't know what "specs" we're talking about being missed here, but a good interface is crucial for many people...
like Myron Krueger said: "If people were going to use computers all day, everyday, the design of such machines was not solely a technical problem-- it was also an aesthetic one. A lousy interface would mean a lousy life."
Parent
Re:I'm surprised you bought an iPhone based on req (Score:5, Funny)
"I think this post sums up the term "fanboi" nicely."
No, it really didn't... I don't know what "specs" we're talking about being missed here, but a good interface is crucial for many people...
like Myron Krueger said: "If people were going to use computers all day, everyday, the design of such machines was not solely a technical problem-- it was also an aesthetic one. A lousy interface would mean a lousy life."
Dude, this is Slashdot. Here, "advanced user interface" means you're using xterm-color.
Parent
Please consider my claim more seriously (Score:5, Insightful)
Not that I think I'll change anyone's mind but really think about what makes a product, ANY product useful nowadays. Is it the raw specs? Do you buy your car based solely (or even primarily) on how many horsepower it has or its MPG? No, things like comfort and handling and responsiveness matter greatly. Possibly even safety could be considered a part of the "user interface", we could all literally tie ourselves in to the seat using rope but a seat belt is much more convenient (and likely to be used).
This doesn't even go into such things like styling or "image" (which is why you might buy a BMW over say a Chevy) and which, I'll happily admit, is a reason why I like Apple products. (Even services are very dependent on "the user interface" how is Disneyland different from Coney Island? Note: I used to design theme parks). So, if you want the maximum price to performance and are willing to suffer (great?) inconvenience, build your computer from scratch and install your own OS on it. That's what Bill had in mind, he thought we could all be nerds. I value my time more highly so I'll let Apple do the work.
Parent
Um, doesn't the phone have asian language input ? (Score:3, Insightful)
I was under the impression that it did, and that it even used its predictive-text system with the pictogram-style input ?
Add that to the question: "What the hell has Apple got to "lose" regarding touch-screens anyway?" and it looks to me like someone wanted some hits, and Apple is a good brand-name to use to get them....
Simon the cynic.
Re:Um, doesn't the phone have asian language input (Score:3, Informative)
I was under the impression that it did, and that it even used its predictive-text system with the pictogram-style input ?
Yeah as of iPhone OS 2.0 it has a rather robust input system. Apple wasn't targeting the international market before the 2.0 OS.
The AC that submitted this obviously doesn't know that the iPhone isn't limited to only QWERTY input and the referenced article makes no statement on that is why Samsung and Moto are currently more popular. Looks like a little bit of trolling going on...
http://www.apple.com/iphone/features/keyboard.html [apple.com]
Re:Um, doesn't the phone have asian language input (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
If touchscreens are so all-fired popular ... (Score:5, Insightful)
For those of us with fingers larger than pencil points, QWERTY is just a waste of precious real estate.
Re:If touchscreens are so all-fired popular ... (Score:5, Funny)
Larger than pencil points? Clearly you are not evolutionarily suited for the modern world.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
One of the things that Apple engineers excel at is tuning obscure user interface parameters to enhance usability, but not in a way you can easily ... er ... put your finger on.
I had the very first Apple "BlackBird" laptop -- a true landmark machine. It had a touchpad in an era when laptops came with trackballs -- basically inverted mice. It worked flawlessly and intuitively. It was years before I ever found a Windows laptop whose touchpad wasn't irritating by comparison. Apple somehow managed to make th
Re:If touchscreens are so all-fired popular ... (Score:4, Insightful)
I still prefer the classic Graffiti on the Palm, but the iPod QWERTY keyboard is acceptable; better than any hardware keyboard I've used on a smartphone.
I can text without looking at my phone because of tactile feedback. I might even be able to do the same with a qwerty smartphone keyboard because I know the layout so well.
The iPhone doesn't provide tactile feedback, so you don't know what key is where. I can't imagine how that is an improvement.
Parent
Re:If touchscreens are so all-fired popular ... (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree, tactile feedback is a good thing.
I don't think doing many things that require visual attention while texting is so good.
Parent
Right Question.... Wrong Answer. (Score:5, Interesting)
1. What are the touch screen statistics in the United States? What share does Apple hold domestically?
2. Is there some reason why Apple is not competing in the international market? Is Apple having their lunch eaten by companies that are "household names" in Asia, or is the product inferrior? What is Apple's penetration in those markets over the past year?
3. How do these numbers change if were to include things like Black Berrys and other "smart" phone without touch screens?
4. Why are 80 percent of touch screen phones marketed in Asia? Why aren't the touch screens being created for the Asian market showing up here? I find it hard to believe that ease of displaying Asian fonts is the only reason. Is there some lack of American infrastructure? Lack of interest from American consumers?
As someone who loves bleeding edge technology, I'm frustrated by the lack of options in the US and find the whole international marketing strategy wonderfully interesting. But this article is a slow boat of fail because it lacks any analysis or insight.
Re:Right Question.... Wrong Answer. (Score:5, Insightful)
Why are 80 percent of touch screen phones marketed in Asia? Why aren't the touch screens being created for the Asian market showing up here?
The american cellular market has the telco as the gatekeeper. Each handset that shows up here has to get past them; and they are only interested in 'showcasing' a limited number of handsets.
Parent
Models? (Score:3, Interesting)
If Motorola and Samsung have the market sewn up, essentially, what are they doing it with? This is the first time I had even heard Motorola *had* a touch screen phone.
Also, why aren't they sold in the US, then? I read about Motorola wanting to spin off their phone division, all the problems they've had, then I'm told they have these phones that I might be interested in (I don't have AT&T so no iPhone for me) but don't seem to be available.
Take my Samsung Glyde, please! (Score:5, Interesting)
My wife and I are excruciatingly unhappy owners of Samsung Glydes. The touch screens are nothing short of possessed.
* The screens randomly accept commands, often registering touches inches away from the actual contact
* The screens often refuse to acknowledge any contact whatsoever
* Worst of all, they're prone to poltergeist behaviors. While placed on a conference table in a meeting, for example, mine started self-executing commands. After much laughter, the assistant director of a government agency who happened to be in the room received a call from my phone (much to the delight of the attendees).
While that example was humorous, the phone has executed deletes of several important contacts, downloaded software, and refused to accept commands to answer important incoming phone calls.
Several trips to Verizon, including software updates and replacements, have failed to resolve the issues.
Perhaps Moto is a threat to Apple, but claiming that Samsung's touch screens are a threat is an absurd claim at best.
Nobody else has FingerWorks IP, though. (Score:5, Interesting)
Anybody can build a touch screen that lets you poke at big static buttons, or lets you try to fatfinger a virtual keyboard. Only Apple has the FingerWorks patents to do high-quality, high-usability multitouch gestures [fingerworks.com].
Disclaimer: I've been using a FingerWorks TouchStream keyboard for more than five years, so I'm a big fan of the technology. I've also been a Mac user since 1985 or so. But when Apple bought FingerWorks, they completely shut down all sales and support, leaving the existing user base swinging in the breeze, so I'm a bit... conflicted.
Not yet available in LARGE parts of Asia (Score:5, Informative)
TFA says a big reason why it is lagging overall is because Moto and Samsung holds 80% of the touchscreen market in Asia. Considering that Apple has not even RELEASED the iPhone in CHINA, Korea and Vietnam to name a few countries it seems obvious why. Also, it was just released (like a month or two ago?) in places like INDIA, Singapre, etc.
On the contrary, seeing the crazy lengths people will go to here to GET an iPhone (I'm in Vietnam) I'm sure that that percentage will change. It is amazing to see, in a country where the per capita income is about $1K (CIA world factbook), lots of people carrying iPhones (a hacked iPhone is about $700 here). I was just in a cab and surprised to see the driver who probably makes less than $10/day using one (but maybe he "found" it from some unlucky person leaving it in the cab). The demand is so high that many telephone shops will have "iPhone" as the most prominent sign on their shops even though no-one in the entire country is an authorized reseller. Sorry but it is still a big big status symbol here.
Re:Not yet available in LARGE parts of Asia (Score:4, Interesting)
Oh yeah, to add to my parent post. Not only do people really really want it, they're willing to do so without support for Vietnamese! So all TEXTING, note taking, calendar entries, address book entries, e-mailing must be done IN ENGLISH. Not only is there no language support for Vietnamese currently in the iPhone but there is no country support (like in the address field; "Vietnam" isn't even one of the countries listed). I keep showing people this and they keep wanting to buy mine off me. How embarrassing really.
Parent
(East) Asian (i)phones don't use QWERTY (Score:5, Informative)
I only have experience with Japanese, but even on the iPhone you get a Japanese keyboard, not QWERTY.
Most Japanese phones use a standard numeric keypad to enter Japanese text, first in Hiragana and then into Kanji in the same way as computers do. The article poster clearly has no idea what they are talking about.
Fun (Score:5, Interesting)
Secondly, the iPhone hasn't even been released in China, but is still a huge status symbol, and the upper-end electronics areas will prominently show iPhones for sale. When it does get released in China, it's sure to have Chinese-language writing support.
Re:It was HP, not Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
It was HP, not Apple that started the touch screen. So Apple has nothing to lose really. And Moto and Samsung rock! Apple is just hype.
Dude, nobody's claiming Apple invented the touchscreen.
But the article is misleading because once you've used an iPhone, all other touchscreen interfaces seem downright primitive.
Parent
Re:It was HP, not Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, that's pretty much it.
I thought I would hate the iPhone, I only got one to be able to better support my customers, who were buying them like crazy.
I love it. Of course, I jailbroke it within half an hour of getting it, and it tethers and runs Netatalk - but it really is as good as the hype.
Parent
Re:It was HP, not Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
Frankly, who gives a flip which was the first!
What I'm interested in, is which device does it best, and I think it's pretty damn obvious which the winner is.
Parent